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greekboy80
08-03-2007, 01:14 PM
Anyone heard of this? Apparently this guy(Martin Berkhan) is working with Lyle McDonald on writing a book about it. Read about it in this thread.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3587831

Basicly, its a fasting diet, in which you fast till 2 hrs before your workout, untill 6 hours past your workout and during those hours you get in all the calories you need for the day with in the 8 hours. Then you fast till the next day 2 hrs before your workout.

If you read the thread, it starts to make sence. Not that I'm going to try it right now, but I would like to see more studies about it before considering.

They kind of equate it to sleeping, why dont we split up out sleeping like our food. Probably cause its not how the body works most effeciantly.

Who knows, what does everybody think?

--------EDIT-------------
Please dont kill the messanger, I'm just starting the thread to provoke thought and to strike up some friendly conversation.

Unholy
08-03-2007, 01:19 PM
People have been using this method and its been working.

Guido
08-03-2007, 01:22 PM
Isn't Built doing something like this?

It makes some sense but takes some discipline initially I would think. Plus it's not very practical for most.

I'd be interested in other peoples' results from it, though.

greekboy80
08-03-2007, 01:24 PM
^ I agree, I was apprehensive at first but the more I read about it, the more intrested I became.

Thank god I didn't get jumped for posting it.....We'll the day is not over so i guess its still a possibility.

Unholy
08-03-2007, 01:26 PM
Actually Guido, the way it works is after a few days you get used to feeding at night. Very little hunger during the day if you do it right. I would imagine for the most part eating at night after work/school etc in a certain window would be more convenient than eating many meals throughout the day. BBB has been running IF for a few weeks and so far so good.

Guido
08-03-2007, 01:48 PM
Actually Guido, the way it works is after a few days you get used to feeding at night. Very little hunger during the day if you do it right. I would imagine for the most part eating at night after work/school etc in a certain window would be more convenient than eating many meals throughout the day. BBB has been running IF for a few weeks and so far so good.
Okay I must have gotten BBB confused with Built.

Anyway, the reason I mentioned the impracticality of it for many people has to do more with social norms than time constraints. It would be tough for many people to eat like that because it would make things like family meals, special events, or business lunches a little difficult. Hard to impress a client by taking him out to lunch at a fancy place and then not eating anything yourself.

ray34iyf
08-03-2007, 01:51 PM
You can bulk using this method right?..or is it just for dieting mainly?

Gunshow
08-03-2007, 02:00 PM
sounds interesting, probably ****in blows fasting all day though

Biggins
08-03-2007, 03:22 PM
Its like the warrior diet.I did the warrior diet and must say that i felt so weak and hungry thru the day.But the fatloss was amazing.I didnt count any calories instead coming home and throwing pound of meat,rice,veggies in pressure cooker and then chowing down.

Do you notice how you are skinnier when you wake up in the morning?By not eating anything at all your hormones are geared towards fat burning.I believe even eating pro/fat meals stunts fat burning to a degree.After all like half of the protein is supposed to convert to glucose.

I was losing muscle mass on it but I wasnt working out so that is probably the reason.

Right now im getting awesome results on 4 protein shakes and 2 real meat meals.My strength is going thru the roof.Maxed out all the leg machines at my gym:p

Back to IF diet.The idea of instead of focusing carbs around workout....instead focus all your calories is brilliant.I THINK iM GONNA GIVE IT A TRY.

seK
08-03-2007, 03:43 PM
What happens on your rest days on this program? Also is there any more information besides what was provided in the thread?

Con
08-03-2007, 03:48 PM
Martin's Blog (http://leangains.blogspot.com/)

I believe he lays out the basics of the diet somewhere.

KingWilder
08-03-2007, 05:36 PM
interesting read...might have to look into this, although I'm not sure if I'd have the willpower to do this

seK
08-03-2007, 05:38 PM
Martin's Blog (http://leangains.blogspot.com/)

I believe he lays out the basics of the diet somewhere.
hmm it dosn't seem to actually discuss the routine very much.

Biggins
08-03-2007, 05:49 PM
From BBB's blog

Being my usual fickle self I changed my diet. Again. This time I've actually managed to stick with it since Tuesday. Not even one slip up. Of course, this probably has to do with the fact that the new diet prescribes gorging myself on food 3 nights a week. I'll summarize. The program is called intermittent fasting (IF). My program is as follows. Each and every day I have a 6-8 hour window during which I consume my entire caloric intake for the day. Usually from 4pm-12am - although this varies slightly depending on what time I go to the gym. One thing remains constant though - once I am done eating I do not eat for another 16 hours (minimum); this is the fasting period. Hence the name intermittent fasting. On days that I lift weights I eat 110% of my maintenance calories. On days I do HIIT but do not lift, I eat 80% of my maintenance calories. On days that I don't lift and don't do HIIT, that is, I am either resting or I may do some light SS cardio, I eat 50% of my maintenance calories. My weeks currently looks like this:

Sunday: Off, 50%
Monday: Off, 50%
Tueday: On, 110%
Wedneday: HIIT, 80%
Thurday: On, 110%
Friday: Off, 50%
Saturday: On, 110%

If you average this over the week it puts me at 80% of maintenance. So far yesterday was the first day that I've been really hungry during the day. But I survived. And even the measly 1100 calories I ate in my feeding window made me incredibly full.

Macros for the past week:
Total:
Calories: 1925
Fat: 70g
Sat: 27g
Poly: 15g
Mono: 21g
Carbs: 151g
Fiber: 26g
Protein: 170g
Alcohol: 0g

Paul Stagg
08-03-2007, 06:36 PM
So, you basically lose bodyfat by eating less than maintenance?

Neat.

getfit
08-03-2007, 06:38 PM
I do find this very interesting.

WBBIRL
08-03-2007, 06:43 PM
My thoughts exactly. If you split your meals up right and eat them in many small increments you should never be hungry at even a deficit.

I don't understand why they want you to not eat from the time you get up until 4 PM. Thats hard, considering I'm at work at 4 and lift right after. That would mean I would have to eat during work, which is fine but that would put it way too close to my workout for me to hit it hard and heavy... I'd blow chunks everywhere.

I don't know about this, I may try it once I hit college. My time period would probably be 12 noon to 8 pm.

KingWilder
08-03-2007, 07:19 PM
it doesn't have to be 4pm...I just looked into this a little more and plan on trying it up until my bulk on September 3

some of the studies they had showed that eating in a small window and fasting for the day had an effect on body composition (people lost bodyfat)

there's actually a decent amount of info out there if you look hard enough

my plan is to Fast for 16 hours and eat my normal amount of calories within the 8hour window

so I'll eat from 1pm-9pm and then fast the rest of the time...should be a fun experiment, we'll see how it goes

Biggins
08-03-2007, 07:25 PM
I don't understand why they want you to not eat from the time you get up until 4 PM. Thats hard, considering I'm at work at 4 and lift right after. That would mean I would have to eat during work, which is fine but that would put it way too close to my workout for me to hit it hard and heavy... I'd blow chunks everywhere..

I believe its for max fatloss.Why do so many claim cardio on an empty stomach is excellent for fatloss??Your body is primed for fat burning after a fast.By not eating for another 8 hrs after you wake up you use your fat and stored glycogen as fuel.Since you arent messing with your hormones by eating youll burn more fat too.

As for blowing chunks while workingout.I think you misunderstand.To break your fast you eat a small balanced meal....then a few hrs later you hit the gym.PWO and for remaining hrs you fill in your calories.

KingWilder
08-03-2007, 07:27 PM
yeah I would think the hardest part about this would be thirst since you can't drink (even water) during the fasting portions

Biggins
08-03-2007, 07:32 PM
King im right on ya here:)

You can drink all the water you want on the fast.Diet sodas,tea,coffee,energy drinks etc.As long as they have no calories you should be fine.The author also states that stimulants react stronger when fasting.

KingWilder
08-03-2007, 07:34 PM
King im right on ya here:)

You can drink all the water you want on the fast.Diet sodas,tea,coffee,energy drinks etc.As long as they have no calories you should be fine.The author also states that stimulants react stronger when fasting.

I thought I read that you couldn't even drink water DURING the fasting portion

Chubrock
08-03-2007, 09:02 PM
Most of ya'll don't know who I'm talking about but Xian did IF not to long ago (before he got too busy with work and turned into a vagina) and had tremendous results with it.

SpecialK
08-03-2007, 09:05 PM
I believe its for max fatloss.Why do so many claim cardio on an empty stomach is excellent for fatloss??Your body is primed for fat burning after a fast.By not eating for another 8 hrs after you wake up you use your fat and stored glycogen as fuel.Since you arent messing with your hormones by eating youll burn more fat too.

As for blowing chunks while workingout.I think you misunderstand.To break your fast you eat a small balanced meal....then a few hrs later you hit the gym.PWO and for remaining hrs you fill in your calories.

I thought doing cardio first thing in the AM on an empty stomach was catabolic to muscle?

Biggins
08-03-2007, 09:38 PM
I thought doing cardio first thing in the AM on an empty stomach was catabolic to muscle?

All good personal trainers and people in the know will tell you to do it on an empty stomach.They claim that if you eat a meal your body has to burn off some blood glucose before it starts dipping into fat stores.Cardio on an empty stomach,on the other hand,starts to burn fat much earlier.

I do HIIT so I always eat something before as Im not trying to burn fat in the 8 minutes I do my cardio....more just increase my VO2 max.

MrWebb78
08-03-2007, 09:50 PM
So, you basically lose bodyfat by eating less than maintenance?

Neat.

Lol. What a concept eh?

WBBIRL
08-03-2007, 10:24 PM
So do we have confirmation of if your allowed to drink water during the "fasting" part of it? If not then screw that.

WBBIRL
08-03-2007, 10:26 PM
I believe its for max fatloss.Why do so many claim cardio on an empty stomach is excellent for fatloss??Your body is primed for fat burning after a fast.By not eating for another 8 hrs after you wake up you use your fat and stored glycogen as fuel.Since you arent messing with your hormones by eating youll burn more fat too.

As for blowing chunks while workingout.I think you misunderstand.To break your fast you eat a small balanced meal....then a few hrs later you hit the gym.PWO and for remaining hrs you fill in your calories.

If I eat anything, say more then 100 calories less then an hour before I lift, I'll be sick and if I don't throw up I'll probably take a considerable hit in performance due to being sick in the stomach. I could never eat for like 2 hours after each football practice without getting very sick in the stomach.

Stackattack
08-03-2007, 11:09 PM
So do we have confirmation of if your allowed to drink water during the "fasting" part of it? If not then screw that.

You are allowed to drink water and black tea/coffee etc.

Alex.V
08-03-2007, 11:28 PM
I do this out of laziness.

Biggins
08-04-2007, 06:40 AM
If I eat anything, say more then 100 calories less then an hour before I lift, I'll be sick and if I don't throw up I'll probably take a considerable hit in performance due to being sick in the stomach. I could never eat for like 2 hours after each football practice without getting very sick in the stomach.


Do what I do then as its working wonders for me.Depending on your goals,make a shake with quick carbs and whey.I use 50gms whey and 80gms dextrose.I have my shaker bottle setup in the morning so im ready as soon as I enter the gym.On way to gym I drink a redbull sugar free about 20 minutes before I arrive at gym.Then as soon as I enter I fill shaker bottle with water and down half and start my workout.Drink other half as soon as I finish.

If I were to eat a meal before working out my workout would suffer.

KingWilder
08-04-2007, 09:40 AM
You are allowed to drink water and black tea/coffee etc.

yup, I was wrong...you're allowed to drink which is a huge relief


I'm off to drink some water...no more food for another hour and 20 mins

Holto
08-04-2007, 10:09 AM
All good personal trainers and people in the know will tell you to do it on an empty stomach.They claim that if you eat a meal your body has to burn off some blood glucose before it starts dipping into fat stores.Cardio on an empty stomach,on the other hand,starts to burn fat much earlier.

It's an extremely old myth.

ddegroff
08-04-2007, 10:15 AM
I've looked into this at the beginning of the summer. I would read over at lyle's board because they have a handful of guys that have used and it's worked great.

I know the idea started with a study that the subjects had much better insulin sensitivity during the fasting and when the gourged and stuffed their face.

Lyle actually adjusted IF from an eight hour fast to 20hrs of fasting 28hrs of eating. I tried his method but the meal timing was way too time consuming. I may do it again here in the future.

Unholy
08-04-2007, 10:30 AM
28 hours of eating?

KingWilder
08-04-2007, 10:53 AM
yeah screw that, I'm sticking with the basic 16 hour (fast), 8 hour (eat) setup

SpecialK
08-04-2007, 11:21 AM
All good personal trainers and people in the know will tell you to do it on an empty stomach.They claim that if you eat a meal your body has to burn off some blood glucose before it starts dipping into fat stores.Cardio on an empty stomach,on the other hand,starts to burn fat much earlier.

I do HIIT so I always eat something before as Im not trying to burn fat in the 8 minutes I do my cardio....more just increase my VO2 max.

It's generally said on WBB that cardio first thing in the AM on an empty stomach is a bad idea. Perhaps some of the more knoweldgable members can give a more in-depth explanation?

Biggins
08-04-2007, 11:50 AM
Im gonna admit here...I set out to start this morning on IF.But at 9am,already 1 hr past my supposed 8am meal,I broke down and had oats and whey because of fear of catabolism.Dam this is gonna be hard to break I can see.

KingWilder
08-04-2007, 12:14 PM
No problems here...I wasn't even hungry when I woke up this morning

and I believe in one of the threads I read there was a study that showed muscle catabolism didn't start until fasting times of over 36 hours...this has you nowhere near that, so try and not worry too much

Biggins
08-04-2007, 01:17 PM
No problems here...I wasn't even hungry when I woke up this morning

and I believe in one of the threads I read there was a study that showed muscle catabolism didn't start until fasting times of over 36 hours...this has you nowhere near that, so try and not worry too much

Your right,so manana I am back on:p .I wanted to go out today on my day off and the thought of packing meals got to me so its just a rest at home day.Ill be happy to leave behind the whole packing foods gig.

BBB
08-04-2007, 05:55 PM
I was moving this last week and just found this thread, so I'll chime in.

I've been BBing for a long time, and quite frankly I was sick of having to cook everything in advance and take it all with me everywhere. This has been extremely convenient for me. I like not having to worry about food all day long.

Hunger. Eating small meals all day left me hungry. I don't know where people get the idea that this somehow staves off hunger. It doesn't. When I cut, I was hungry all the friggin time. On IF I do admittedly get hungry during the day. But no more than I did before. And frankly, it's easy to deal with knowing that I will get to go to bed full. So, given the choice between starving all day and going to bed hungry or starving all day and going to bed full - I'll take going to bed full, thanks.

I've done quite a bit of research on IF and ADF (alternate day fasting) protocols and their effects on markers for cancer, diabetes and cardiovascular disease and there is some indication that ADF acts somewhat like reducing caloric intake - even though caloric intake is not necessarily reduced on average. There are also only a few studies on the effects of IF on body composition and much of the research is just in the beginning stages.

If anyone wants help setting up a maintenance, cut, or bulk I'm glad to help.

Biggins
08-04-2007, 06:20 PM
BBB,can u share a days eating after a workout and what you eat on off days?

ddegroff
08-04-2007, 06:46 PM
28 hours of eating?



Ok, since I'm no long stupid like yesterday and clueless about what was actually being described in this paper

essentially the guys alternated 18 hours fasting with 18 hours of eating. I was too locked into what Work was doing I hought it was only a few hours of eating around training. cuz I'm dumb like that sometimes.

eating wise, assuming an evening workout, here's what I'd do on the eat days

5 hours out, small meal of protein, carbs with some fruit
2 hours out, small meal of protein, carb swith some fruit
train: carb/protein drink during workout. think 30 g carbs and 8-10 g whey protein.
immediate post workout: dextrose/glucose + whey protein and creatine. then eat like a crazed weasel until 6pm the following evening.

the fruit is important, you need to get the liver back into an anabolic mode, taht means refilling liver glycogen.

cut off eating around 6 pm the following evening and fast until the next eating period. this should give you nearly 24 solid hours eating. a little short of protein synthesis rates but it's back to baseline at 36 hours and the last meal will carry you through the evening if you pick whole foods.

So schematically
day 1: fast until 5 hous before workout, eat, eat again, train, eat. let's say you train at 7pm, so you start eating at 2pm
day 2: eat all day until 6pm. back to fasting
day 3: repeat day 1 start eating at 2pm, that gives you 20 hours of fasting
day 4: repeat day 2
day 5: repeat day 1
day 6: repeat day 2
day 7: random thought: keep this a fasting day, maybe some cardio in the morning. would this keep fat gains at bay?

Sorry I was four hours off. This is more for a three day a week full body. Should have said that. Also I totally agree, way too much work.

BBB
08-04-2007, 07:56 PM
BBB,can u share a days eating after a workout and what you eat on off days?

Sure thing.

On a workout day I fast until about 4pm. I eat a reasonable sized meal at 4pm consisting of lean protein, complex carbs and veggies. Usually, meatloaf (the recipe is in the Recipes forum), some frozen veggies with butter and fish oil caps. Just pop it in the microwave and I'm good to go. Then I take a scoop of whey mixed with dextrose to the gym with me and sip on that before and during my workout. After the workout I pretty much sit down to eat and don't really stop until I go to bed, lol. Actually, that's not quite true. When I was trying to eat "clean" during this period that's what I did. But to get in 1900 calories in 4 hours...well, it's really difficult to do on "clean" foods. So, I eat mostly BB type foods + some goodies to get me to my goal. Protein Waffles (again, find the recipe in the recipe forum) with butter and maple syrup, cottage cheese blended with splenda and strawberries (or mixed berries), pb and j, more meatloaf, chicken breasts, veggies with olive oil, chocolate, ice cream if I want it. Yeah, I pretty much gorge. My total intake for the day is about 2400 calories, 80 grams fat, 170 grams protein, and 190 grams carbs.

On a non-workout day I fast until 4 pm. Then I eat at 4pm, 6pm and 8pm, following a PSMF style diet. Chicken breasts, meatloaf, cottage cheese, veggies and fish oil caps. My totals for the day are about 1100 calories, 40 grams of fat, 138 grams protein, 45 grams carbs. After stuffing myself the previous night it's actually a relief not to have to eat so much in so little time.

Biggins
08-04-2007, 08:41 PM
Sure thing.

On a workout day I fast until about 4pm. I eat a reasonable sized meal at 4pm consisting of lean protein, complex carbs and veggies. Usually, meatloaf (the recipe is in the Recipes forum), some frozen veggies with butter and fish oil caps. Just pop it in the microwave and I'm good to go. Then I take a scoop of whey mixed with dextrose to the gym with me and sip on that before and during my workout. After the workout I pretty much sit down to eat and don't really stop until I go to bed, lol. Actually, that's not quite true. When I was trying to eat "clean" during this period that's what I did. But to get in 1900 calories in 4 hours...well, it's really difficult to do on "clean" foods. So, I eat mostly BB type foods + some goodies to get me to my goal. Protein Waffles (again, find the recipe in the recipe forum) with butter and maple syrup, cottage cheese blended with splenda and strawberries (or mixed berries), pb and j, more meatloaf, chicken breasts, veggies with olive oil, chocolate, ice cream if I want it. Yeah, I pretty much gorge. My total intake for the day is about 2400 calories, 80 grams fat, 170 grams protein, and 190 grams carbs.

On a non-workout day I fast until 4 pm. Then I eat at 4pm, 6pm and 8pm, following a PSMF style diet. Chicken breasts, meatloaf, cottage cheese, veggies and fish oil caps. My totals for the day are about 1100 calories, 40 grams of fat, 138 grams protein, 45 grams carbs. After stuffing myself the previous night it's actually a relief not to have to eat so much in so little time.


Whoa,that PWO sounds great.For right now my PRE/PWO will be a dex/whey shake followed by two meals that each contain 1 cup oats with 3 scoops whey.15 flax caps and a small bag of mixed nuts will round it all off.Im broke this week and so all I have is whey for protein:cry:

When my funds permit im thinking of going back to what I did when I tried the warrior diet.Come home and throw pound of meat,large bag mixed veggies,2tbsp olive oil and enuff rice to meet my calorie needs.Split between two meals and Im set.

BBB
08-04-2007, 09:26 PM
I'm not an advocate of the warrior diet. No science behind it. Just a bunch of macho posturing if you ask me.

Biggins
08-04-2007, 09:45 PM
He added all the warrior stuff to sell the concept.Must be tuff like a "Roman" warrior and endue the pain of hunger.But IF is the same concept as warrior diet.It is 4 hrs of eating instead of 8.

BBB
08-04-2007, 09:48 PM
Oh, I beg to differ. Does he provide macro-nutrient guidelines? Exercise guidlines? Supplementation?

Biggins
08-05-2007, 06:27 AM
Your right.He stated that warrior diet was meant to just get lean,not really for mass gains.Leangains has taken the concept and is finetuning it so that you can do whatever you want,be it mass gains,cutting or maintaing.Also by extending the eating phase to 8 hrs you can get in more calories.This is a major diff as the Warrior diet has you losing muscle fast and bodyweight overall and in my case fdeeling sick as this happened.

I felt that after Ori wrote the book he just kinda abandoned it while selling the silly supplements like Warrior milk ay high prices.

Biggins
08-05-2007, 12:08 PM
Whoa first day was an eyeopener.Had a cup of coffee even though I quit and was banging off the walls.Felt on fire also and hunger is strong!

Now I go eat me feast:)

BBB
08-05-2007, 03:20 PM
See that's weird. If I don't eat first thing in the morning I don't get hungry until much later in the day...usually around noon, and then it's only 4 hours till I get to eat anyway so it's no big deal.

Biggins
08-05-2007, 04:51 PM
See that's weird. If I don't eat first thing in the morning I don't get hungry until much later in the day...usually around noon, and then it's only 4 hours till I get to eat anyway so it's no big deal.

Thats what I meant...my hunger got strong when I neared my breakfast.I tell you though,my "feast" lasted a whole 15 minutes.Yep I ate my whole 1500cal in 15 minutes.That was at 2:45 and it is now 7pm and im still full so.....

KingWilder
08-05-2007, 04:56 PM
yeah, it's an off day and I ONLY get to eat 1700 cals YET I just practically had to force myself to eat dinner because I wasn't even hungry

loving this diet so far

BBB
08-05-2007, 05:53 PM
KW - isn't that so weird? On my off days I eat only 1100 calories and I'm stuffed - even have a hard time getting it all down. I'm glad that you're liking it.

KingWilder
08-05-2007, 05:57 PM
it really is surprising

glad there are some other people doing this too

Biggins
08-05-2007, 06:10 PM
yeah, it's an off day and I ONLY get to eat 1700 cals YET I just practically had to force myself to eat dinner because I wasn't even hungry

loving this diet so far

Its my off day also and I ate 1700.Thought I added only 1/4 cup rice when it was 1/2 cup.What do you eat on workout days.

For moi its 500 calories in dex/whey and stick to this one huge meal when I come home as its convenient and im just now feeling like my stomach is comepletley empty.....5 hrs later.Bulking should be an amazing thing as I have a love for ice cream!!

Its great I dont have to pack my bag with food anymore.:thumbup: :thumbup:

BigBossMan
08-06-2007, 10:13 AM
Hello....I just wanted to write a little something about IF protocal. I have read a little bit about it and it seems to make perfect sense. Not to sound like I know what I am talking about becuase I don't just things that I remember from reading. Basically the body cannot build muscle and lose fat simultaneously from what I understand it is physiologically very difficult and I will see if I can find the article I read that explains why. The IF protocal allows you to do this becuase the periods of overfeeding essentially turn on something in your body that causes you to build muscle and the fasting periods allow you reap the benefits that come with any "fast" fat loss along with other benefits with regards to insulin and response to stimulants. It is a little more complex then calorie deficit=fat loss like some were suggesting. Studies that I have read show that people actually gain muscle increase strength while reducing body fat %....it is very interesting and I will probably due IF for my next cut!!

BigBossMan
08-06-2007, 10:20 AM
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/Miscarticles/ampk.html

I found the article that I was referring to that I think explains a little bit why the IF protocal kind of puts together the best of both worlds in regards to fat loss/protien synthesis. A far better explaination than I could give

KingWilder
08-06-2007, 10:21 AM
cut, bulk, maintenance

if it goes well I'll just eat like this for the rest of my life (esp. if the health benefits talked about and shown in early studies hold true with more research)

IZich
08-06-2007, 12:42 PM
FYI everyone:

I've been on the IF for about 5 weeks now, and still going strong. I've been cutting while improving in strength (not newbie gains, either) in all areas. To date, I've lost 12 pounds in 5 weeks with improved vascularity and definition.

In other words, it works for me.

Biggins
08-06-2007, 04:09 PM
AMAZING^^^^^^^Love to see stuff like this writen as it gives me encouragment!

I had my second day today with no hunger at all and unbound energy.Just worked out and ate my meal for the day and I am happy and content and sleepy:)

KobeWillVindic8
08-07-2007, 01:42 AM
so, if you go out and drink and stuff on weekends, would that just totally mess up the whole diet? i can see myself doing this during weekdays, but at least once on the weekend i would probably go out and drink and eat bad things. would that disrupt the continuity of the diet and render it pointless?

ray34iyf
08-07-2007, 08:10 AM
So, I'm thinking about using this when I go back to school. I maintain on around 2600 cals a day and I plan on bulking. How many cals should I shoot for on w/o and non w/o days?
Workout day-3100 cals
Non Workout-maintainance?

BBB
08-07-2007, 08:11 AM
Hi Kobe - Honestly, I'm not sure. I do have the occasional glass of wine or drink on the weekend - but never more than one or two...and never more than once or twice a month and it doesn't seem to affect me too much. But then again - heavy drinking interferes with any diet or training program. I would assume that the same applies here.

ray34iyf
08-07-2007, 08:11 AM
...or is it the same cal wise(trying to gain 3-4 lbs a month) but just the 16hr fast, 8 hour feast? Also, how have your guys' workouts been in a fasted state?

BBB
08-07-2007, 08:16 AM
ray34if - you're planning on bulking, so...first off, what is your maintenance and how many days a week do you plan on training? Give me this info and I can help.

ray34iyf
08-07-2007, 08:22 AM
Maintenance is sitting at about 2600 cals and I want to go about this bulk cleanly and slow. I'm currently using a three day a week full body workout.

W-A
Squats 3x4-6
Bench 3x4-6
1-Arm Row 3x6-8

W-B
Deads 3x3-5
OH Press 3x4-6
Chins 3xasmanyaspossible

M(A)W(B)F(A)
M(B)W(A)F(B-skip deads to allow recovery)

Thanks!

BBB
08-07-2007, 08:54 AM
WO Days: Maintenance + 25% = 3250 calories
Non-WI Days: Maintenace + 0% = 2600 calories

This puts you at + 10-11% of maintenance on average = approx. .6 lbs per week. Nice clean, and slow. If you want to gain weight faster increase the calories on your workout days.

I'll let someone else help you with your wo.

ray34iyf
08-07-2007, 08:58 AM
Thanks! I'll be using this indefinitely after I cut down w/ UD2.0...

Guido
08-07-2007, 10:00 AM
Call me crazy, but isn't this IF thing pretty much how MOST people eat? They skip breakfast, then eat a big lunch around noon and a big dinner around 6, then don't eat much till the next day's lunch again. So they get almost all of their daily calories in an 8 hour span. I fail to see how it's revolutionary.

The only difference is that you are generally eating cleaner foods and weight training, which most people don't do.

KingWilder
08-07-2007, 10:09 AM
most people probably consume the same amount every day

IF generally has you overeating on lifting days and undereating on non-lifting days

Guido
08-07-2007, 10:31 AM
Okay, but I still don't see how it's THAT much different.

DoUgL@S
08-07-2007, 11:42 AM
Call me crazy, but isn't this IF thing pretty much how MOST people eat? They skip breakfast, then eat a big lunch around noon and a big dinner around 6, then don't eat much till the next day's lunch again. So they get almost all of their daily calories in an 8 hour span. I fail to see how it's revolutionary.

The only difference is that you are generally eating cleaner foods and weight training, which most people don't do.

And tracking calories. I know most people do not do that. :)

Vapour Trails
08-07-2007, 12:16 PM
I guess nobody saw this thread
http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=99090

To be balanced, it should be noted that several people also report hating IF.

Any why is no one into steady state dieting anymore? You know, dropping 200 cals a day for 38 weeks.

BBB
08-07-2007, 12:42 PM
Guido - Just for the record - that is not how MOST people eat. The average person eats 5 times a day. They just eat junk. They probably skip breakfast but wind up eating midmorning anyway (donuts in the office or some such thing), eat lunch, snack before dinner, eat dinner and snack after dinner - probably from 10 or 11 AM until midnight.


On average my eating window is more like 6 hours. Anyway....yeah, I'm sure some people hate it...

seK
08-07-2007, 01:28 PM
Guido - Just for the record - that is not how MOST people eat. The average person eats 5 times a day. They just eat junk. They probably skip breakfast but wind up eating midmorning anyway (donuts in the office or some such thing), eat lunch, snack before dinner, eat dinner and snack after dinner - probably from 10 or 11 AM until midnight.


On average my eating window is more like 6 hours. Anyway....yeah, I'm sure some people hate it...
Hmm would you mind linking the study that shows this, I was looking for some sort of study a while back to show how many times a day the average American eatsí.

BBB
08-07-2007, 02:41 PM
seK - Honestly, I've just read it so many times over the years I thought it was just common knowledge. If you ask a lot of people how many times a day they eat they'll say 2 or 3. They just forget to mention that candy bar out of the vending machine - or the lemon square they had a starbucks. <shrugs>

seK
08-07-2007, 02:44 PM
seK - Honestly, I've just read it so many times over the years I thought it was just common knowledge. If you ask a lot of people how many times a day they eat they'll say 2 or 3. They just forget to mention that candy bar out of the vending machine - or the lemon square they had a starbucks. <shrugs>

Ahh just based off of personal experience no prob although I bet Guido's opinion was based on his.

Anyways I decided to give this diet a start today, it was hard not having my breakfast carbs and its almost 3 now and I am starving. I am sure I will get used to it though as the week goes on.

Guido
08-07-2007, 02:49 PM
Maybe it's just people I know that eat like that... perhaps that's not the norm. I know for a fact that my most of my family members eat only 2 big meals a day. I've lived with them and been around them enough to know that. They don't snack hardly EVER. Most of my family is skinny (which I used to be quite skinny as well till I started lifting and eating seriously). Perhaps because they all do a modified version of the IF diet?

ddegroff
08-07-2007, 04:59 PM
Maybe it's just people I know that eat like that... perhaps that's not the norm. I know for a fact that my most of my family members eat only 2 big meals a day. I've lived with them and been around them enough to know that. They don't snack hardly EVER. Most of my family is skinny (which I used to be quite skinny as well till I started lifting and eating seriously). Perhaps because they all do a modified version of the IF diet?

I agree with you for the most part. But the main difference is the macro's are much more specialized with an IF diet vs. a normal diet. Most peoples normal diet would be too high in fat, lacking in protein and way to many carbs.

Biggins
08-07-2007, 05:22 PM
The average person is not doing IF if they skip breakfast.My friend eats a bagel halfway during day and then eats a normal dinner and hes fat.Its not much food.

The IF diet has you working out then eating and very importantly....getting in your protein requieremnts!!!

Say you think to yourself im just gonna eat dinner and everynight even after workingout you head to Burger king.A whopper(double) w/cheese,super sized fries and a super sized coke.That works out to....

fat=103 carbs=225 protein=64

Not exactley muscle building protein amounts and more calories than I take in now doing IF.

Holto
08-07-2007, 06:34 PM
I guess nobody saw this thread
http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=99090

Maybe they just don't care for your attitude.

Guido
08-07-2007, 09:25 PM
Okay. I'm convinced it's different now. I'm still going to follow KingWilder's progress on it for a while and see if he maintains his strength on it. I wouldn't try it myself unless I was certain I wouldn't lose strength on an IF program.

BBB
08-08-2007, 06:29 AM
Guido - I've been doing it for almost 4 weeks now and I'm posting PRs.

Bikkstah
08-08-2007, 07:09 AM
This is a diet? That's how I eat normally.

IZich
08-08-2007, 11:06 AM
Guido - I've been doing it for almost 4 weeks now and I'm posting PRs.

Guido - same. This is my 6th week on it and I matched my 315 raw bench PR on my ME yesterday. We'll see if that is topped next week I guess.

IZich
08-08-2007, 11:08 AM
Any why is no one into steady state dieting anymore? You know, dropping 200 cals a day for 38 weeks.

Speaking for myself, I simply hate being bored. IF is new, creative, and - dare I say it? - makes dieting fun.

greekboy80
08-08-2007, 12:09 PM
IF is new, creative, and - dare I say it? - makes dieting fun.

And that my friends, that's whats most important!

Whatever it takes to make lifting and dieting fun and exciting is all good. WEre all hear doing this mainly for 2 reasons, overall health and to look good nekid! Any way you keep it going is good no matter how you do it!

KingWilder
08-10-2007, 11:10 AM
Did a FASTED state workout today

IT WAS AWESOME...I felt the same if not better than a normal day in the gym

got a huge PR (actually 2) on weighted chins too...BW+80x2 and BW+90x1

BW is about 170 still

jamrock
08-10-2007, 01:52 PM
So where are you guys going to the outline of this?? I read about supplements and what not, don't see anything though... I want to start tomorrow (last meal will be tonight at around 9PM)..

Guido
08-10-2007, 03:07 PM
Guido - same. This is my 6th week on it and I matched my 315 raw bench PR on my ME yesterday. We'll see if that is topped next week I guess.Excellent. I might be trying this eventually.

KingWilder
08-10-2007, 04:16 PM
another PR today to toss in here: 3 sets of 5 with 315 (deadlifts) last week I only pulled 3 reps on the last set

also I emailed Martin ( www.leangains.com )...I think I'm going to do a personal consultation at the beginning of my bulk...although I can't reveal anything, it'll be fun to have some good direction from him

BBB
08-10-2007, 05:12 PM
No fasted workouts for this girl. I don't like that idea. Besides which - I'm so hungry by the time I eat and work out - I don't think I could make it until after my workout.

On an up note - I did 13 pull ups today, 2 sets of 5 and 1 set of 3 - a PR for me :)

Time to go feed.

Biggins
08-11-2007, 08:05 AM
No fasted workouts for this girl. I don't like that idea. Besides which - I'm so hungry by the time I eat and work out - I don't think I could make it until after my workout.

On an up note - I did 13 pull ups today, 2 sets of 5 and 1 set of 3 - a PR for me :)

Time to go feed.

What a mistake trying a fasted workout was for me.I almost went into a diabetic coma on bus ride home....which is 1 hr long of pure hell as I kept nodding and shutting down.This is not a good idea for hypoglycemics.

VikingWarlord
08-11-2007, 08:43 AM
This seems like it's a very convenient system, but I'm having a problem figuring a few things out. First thing, do those of you that do this always train at the same time every day?

I've got two days a week when I train late morning/early afternoon and one in the evening, and I can't figure out how to arrange things to fit the schedule. At the end of the month, it'll switch to two nights and one day. How important is consistency of that sort in this thing?

Kong
08-11-2007, 08:45 AM
I want to try this but need help. I rise at 6 in the morning and get to work at 7. I then work till 7pm and get to the gym at about half past, finishing at 8:30-9pm and then go back to bed at either 11pm or 12. This leaves me at most 3 hours to feast...any ideas? Maybe take more calories in during training?

BBB
08-11-2007, 08:48 AM
VW - I workout at more or less the same time everyday. Occasionally I go in a couple of hours early - on those days I make sure to quit eating the night before a couple of hours early so that I always have a minimum of 16 hours fasted. Since I work out EOD this is easy because I don't have much food to eat the night before. If one day you had to work out at, say, noon, you'd have to be done eating the night before by 6pm.

Kong
08-11-2007, 08:51 AM
Please help

BBB
08-11-2007, 08:52 AM
Edit - sorry, I missed your post. Eat a preworkout meal at work. Say, at about 5 pm. Then you can always take a dextrose and whey shake with you to the gym for added calories/energy. I eat about 500-600 before/during workouts to get all my calories in. This way you don't have to get as much in later.

PS - Eating a ton of food in such a short amount of time gets easier with practice :D

Kong
08-11-2007, 08:56 AM
I posted a problem a few posts back, basically that i only have a 4 hour window to feast

BBB
08-11-2007, 08:59 AM
I edited! See previous post.

My fasts seem to be getting longer. I regularly fast 18 hours nowadays.

Kong
08-11-2007, 09:08 AM
So calorie breakdown is maintenance -50% rest days, maintenance +20% training days and maintenance -20% HIIT. What about protein intake, will my usual 2g per Ib LBM do for each day and will a 4 day split (modified BGB) be ok or does it have to be simplified like lyle outlines for psmf? Thanks

BBB
08-11-2007, 09:12 AM
If you are cutting then yes +20% and -50%. It's hard to keep protein that high on -50% days so I usually go 1g per lb of body weight. I'm still experimenting with my macros to tell you the truth. But on + days I go 1.25-1.5 g protein per lb bw. Try and get your healthy fats at .5g per lb and fill the rest up as you like - at least that's what I've been doing until recently.

Kong
08-11-2007, 09:14 AM
Thanks, youve helped a lot

Kong
08-11-2007, 09:15 AM
Oh sorry, another question. Is there a limit to the amount/kind of food to include in the pre-workout meal?

VikingWarlord
08-11-2007, 09:25 AM
VW - I workout at more or less the same time everyday. Occasionally I go in a couple of hours early - on those days I make sure to quit eating the night before a couple of hours early so that I always have a minimum of 16 hours fasted. Since I work out EOD this is easy because I don't have much food to eat the night before. If one day you had to work out at, say, noon, you'd have to be done eating the night before by 6pm.

Ok, this makes sense. I'm going to have to figure out how to work out the schedule problems. I'm following along with all the information though. Thanks.

BBB
08-11-2007, 09:36 AM
Kong - No, but you probably want to keep it like a normal pre-work out meal...ya know, slow digesting protein and complex carbs, maybe some veggies, a little fat, but not much. Sometimes I even eat twice before I workout - once at 4pm and something small at 6 just to tie me over until I get home (about 8:30 or 9:00pm). Recently I've been having meatloaf and sweet potatoes around 4-5 and then another half piece of meatloaf (recipe in the recipe section) at 6 and this keeps me comfortable (but not overfull) through my workout.

VW - No problem.

Kong
08-11-2007, 09:43 AM
Thanks, that helps loads

Con
08-11-2007, 05:00 PM
Just wondering what some of you thought of this: An Objective Look at Intermittent Fasting (http://alanaragon.com/an-objective-look-at-intermittent-fasting.html)

KingWilder
08-11-2007, 08:53 PM
Just wondering what some of you thought of this: An Objective Look at Intermittent Fasting (http://alanaragon.com/an-objective-look-at-intermittent-fasting.html)

sorry, my cognitive functions are lower than normal because I'm fasting

I'll read it again tomorrow when I've eaten

Biggins
08-11-2007, 09:12 PM
If you are cutting then yes +20% and -50%. It's hard to keep protein that high on -50% days so I usually go 1g per lb of body weight. I'm still experimenting with my macros to tell you the truth. But on + days I go 1.25-1.5 g protein per lb bw. Try and get your healthy fats at .5g per lb and fill the rest up as you like - at least that's what I've been doing until recently.


So for me...at 2000 maintenance.

I eat 2400 on WO days
I eat 1600 on HIIT days
I eat 1000 on rest days

This right BBB??

KingWilder
08-11-2007, 09:24 PM
I'm doing maintenance+25% on lifting days and maintenance -20% on non-lifting days and I basically lost 1 lb last week

1000 calories for one day just looks painful

Biggins
08-11-2007, 09:34 PM
I'm doing maintenance+25% on lifting days and maintenance -20% on non-lifting days and I basically lost 1 lb last week

1000 calories for one day just looks painful


Im desperate,to bulk!!!

I am tired of cutting and am so anxious to bulk.....yet I cant since the lard handles need to dissapear.One pound a week is too slow.

I cant wait to try bulking like this.What are the percentages for bulking?+50% on WO days?

Alex.V
08-11-2007, 09:39 PM
Just wondering what some of you thought of this: An Objective Look at Intermittent Fasting (http://alanaragon.com/an-objective-look-at-intermittent-fasting.html)

I love it. Because of this:



In the world of fitness, recommendations for improving performance and body composition often gain blind acceptance despite a dearth of objective data. This is common in a field where high hopes and obsessive-compulsive tendencies are united with false appeals and incomplete information. In order to be proven effective beyond the mere power of suggestion, supposed truths must be put through the crucible of science. Drawing conclusions from baseless assumptions is a good way to get nowhere - fast.


THANK YOU. This is one of the few intelligent things I have read on an internet article in years.

And pretty much my approach to all this silliness.

BBB
08-11-2007, 10:59 PM
Just wondering what some of you thought of this: An Objective Look at Intermittent Fasting (http://alanaragon.com/an-objective-look-at-intermittent-fasting.html)

Yes, I have read it. I also have almost all of the articles that this person cites. And yes, some of the criticisms are very valid - and very much like my own criticisms of those same studies. There are almost all flawed in major ways in terms of design. Most of the research that has been done is on rats, not humans. You also have to understand that long term studies on humans are pretty much non existent. Since, IF, as I am approaching it (as well as Martin Berkhan and others) is not the same as ADF - or any of the studies that have been done, there is no choice but to conclude that we don't know. There is no real scientific evidence one way or another...no matter what people may claim. Yes, Belial - there is a dearth of objective information - EITHER WAY.

Personally, I was curious about for convenience and saiety reasons. If I can get the same results (and/or better) results using IF - then I'm still interested for those reasons alone. The one comment the author made the I 100% agree on and that I think is backed by research is that there is no metabolic advantage (i.e. the thermogenesis argument) to eating 6 meals or 4 or 3 or 2 or 1. In the end, the calorie is king. I think the whole eat 6 or more times a day thing was started by people (men) looking to gain weight who needed a convenient way to get more calories down - and it works really well for that purpose. Personally, eating 6 250-300 calorie meals a day leaves me feeling deprived. I hate it and always have. I am far more comfortable eating 2 or 3 times a day.

Biggins - that sounds about right.

Biggins
08-12-2007, 07:33 AM
Biggins - that sounds about right.

Thanks.I am gonna do this instead

2000 on WO days
1600 on HIIT days
1000 on rest days

I want to end this cut fast and so its maintence on WO days,-20% on HIIT days and -50% on rest days.

BBB
08-12-2007, 08:14 AM
Biggins - You will NEED to over eat on your maintenance days. Trust me. That's part of it. You need to supply your body with excess calories on training days.

Biggins
08-12-2007, 08:38 AM
Biggins - You will NEED to over eat on your maintenance days. Trust me. That's part of it. You need to supply your body with excess calories on training days.


To be honest with you...i really dont know what my maintenance is.My metabolism is slow and I feel that this may be a better calorie for me.I just looked over last weeks food and I was at 2000 on WO days with 1500 on HIIT days.I lost one pound last week so I feel that this is a good setting for the time being.

Hehe,the one meal a day I do seems to fill me right up as it is...ill feel like im bulking if I go to 2400 on WO days.:strong:

BBB
08-12-2007, 12:18 PM
Biggins - sorry if I've already asked this - but what are your stats? I'm a 32 year old, 140lb woman and my maintenance is 2200 calories a day. I find it hard to believe that there are these men around here, who work out regularly, with these super low maintenance calories (King Wilder too).

KingWilder
08-12-2007, 12:34 PM
Biggins - sorry if I've already asked this - but what are your stats? I'm a 32 year old, 140lb woman and my maintenance is 2200 calories a day. I find it hard to believe that there are these men around here, who work out regularly, with these super low maintenance calories (King Wilder too).

haha hey now!

I find it odd too, honestly. I actually lost about a pound last week and I think my average calories for the week was 2300...so clearly something was going wrong the 2 weeks before that when I was "maintaining on 2000" (not sure what though as I'm sure I tracked everything correctly). I'm guessing my actual maintenance is around 2400-2500.

BBB
08-12-2007, 12:40 PM
King - actually - a lot of people report eating way more on IF and not gaining weight as expected and or losing weight on what they think are maintenance calories. People bulking on IF eat crazy amounts of food.

Biggins - See, KW has experienced this too - you are going to NEED to eat more on some days - you'll waste away fast if you don't. No joke.

Edit - Another example - I work out EOD - I stuffed my face two nights ago eating about 2500 calories. Yesterday AM I was 142.0 - this morning I was 139.8 - that's 2.2lbs in a day. Sure, I'll half of it back today when I eat again - but still!

Do as you will - but don't come whining to me when you waste away inside a weeks time.

Biggins
08-12-2007, 02:28 PM
King - actually - a lot of people report eating way more on IF and not gaining weight as expected and or losing weight on what they think are maintenance calories. People bulking on IF eat crazy amounts of food.

Biggins - See, KW has experienced this too - you are going to NEED to eat more on some days - you'll waste away fast if you don't. No joke.

Edit - Another example - I work out EOD - I stuffed my face two nights ago eating about 2500 calories. Yesterday AM I was 142.0 - this morning I was 139.8 - that's 2.2lbs in a day. Sure, I'll half of it back today when I eat again - but still!

Do as you will - but don't come whining to me when you waste away inside a weeks time.

:cry: :cry: :cry: Why didnt ya warn me BBB?????????

Trust me,I shall not waste away to oblivion.Heres the story of bigguns.

5ft9....176 pounds shredded:rolleyes:

I am now 37 and I got into my best shape ever at 24 yrs old.I cut my calories eating iso/caloric weekly.Started at 1500 and went down to 900 to get the last fat off.I wasnt ripped but I had some abs showing.For me that is an acomplishment as I gain fat way easy.

Yes I workout hard and have a heavy labor job yet the fat doesnt budge.That is until I cut way down in calories.Last monday I ate 2500 PWO.The next day I had no hunger whatsoever.That shows me that I am way over the amount I need to eat to lose fat.

I just ate my 1000 calorie meal and I am stuffed!!For reals but tommorow isnt gonna be a walk in the park.Its that hunger tho that I am starting to crave as I know im burning fat.

BBB
08-12-2007, 03:58 PM
Hunger is not the issue. I'm never hungry the night after I feast either. And, I too get stuffed on about 1000 calories now...depending on the source of the food (more energy dense foods aren't quite the same). But, ok....do as you will.

Biggins
08-12-2007, 05:12 PM
Hunger is not the issue. I'm never hungry the night after I feast either. And, I too get stuffed on about 1000 calories now...depending on the source of the food (more energy dense foods aren't quite the same). But, ok....do as you will.


All I can say is u fine already.Many people here have a thin layer of fat on their stomachs and feel fat.Many of us have inches.Right now I can squeeze a 6 inch roll of fat on my lovies.Thats a slow ass metabolism!!You look at me with a shirt on and i look like im in shape.

Agree about energy dense foods being not filling.My fave is pasta and you dont get much:(

Con
08-12-2007, 05:16 PM
Personally, I was curious about for convenience and saiety reasons. If I can get the same results (and/or better) results using IF - then I'm still interested for those reasons alone.



Same here. Lately its been eaiser to not have to worry about eating for half the day and hunger is generally not a huge issue. I also find it easier to NOT overeat when I have a smaller eating window.



I love it. Because of this:

THANK YOU. This is one of the few intelligent things I have read on an internet article in years.

And pretty much my approach to all this silliness.

Althought I didnt say it, im glad I could make you happy.

Biggins
08-13-2007, 02:14 PM
Hunger is not the issue. I'm never hungry the night after I feast either. And, I too get stuffed on about 1000 calories now...depending on the source of the food (more energy dense foods aren't quite the same). But, ok....do as you will.

Your right.I am back to original

2400 WO days
1600 HIITdays
1000 rest days

Reason is thatI feel muscle loss coming on from my 1000 calorie excursion.Had a great WO today and now im overfeeding and will drop down tommorow for HIIT day.Thanks for the push.Plus I only do one rest day per week.

BBB
08-13-2007, 02:32 PM
LOL.

Vapour Trails
08-13-2007, 03:42 PM
I find it interesting BBB that a few weeks ago you were telling an overweight fighter not to drop his calories too low or he would lose muscle and now you've embraced fasting. What a different a couple of weeks makes.
http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=99490

BBB
08-13-2007, 03:53 PM
When you are training for a fight it's totally different. I still wouldn't recommend IF to a fighter. Energy levels are too wonky. I'd never do anything more taxing than a little steady state cardio on a day when calories are low - let alone fight - which is essentially like doing a session of HIIT. You feed HIIT a lot like you feed a workout. Besides which, in IF you never drop your calories low for more than a day or two. Dropping them that low for an extended period of time would wreck havoc on your muscle and I stand by that statement. This isn't fasting as in not eating at all. I eat every 16-20 hours - hardly much of a fast.

Biggins
08-13-2007, 04:15 PM
I think opposite.I have a heavy labor job and let me tell you that the fasted state is a pleasure to work in.Especially when the body heat goes up.This of course is only possible if the carb tank has been filled the day before.If I eat no carbs on my feast on IF then the next day I will be bonked out!!

BBB
08-13-2007, 04:58 PM
See, even when I eat plenty of carbs I'm wonky by noon the next day.

Biggins
08-13-2007, 05:39 PM
See, even when I eat plenty of carbs I'm wonky by noon the next day.

Wonky like Willy Wonka or just low blood sugar?Try a stick of gum...its not gonna cause any significant insulin response and it may help you feel better.

Well I finished my 2500 calories.Dam that was hard to get down:(Didnt think 1/2 cup of dry rice and 15 flax caps would make such a difference.

CHeck out this guys eats for the day IF style.and to think he was eating dry chicken breast with a stick of steamed brocolli every 2.89789999 hrs before this>>>>>http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=68856843&postcount=11861

BBB
08-13-2007, 07:50 PM
Low blood sugar. I may start eating a small piece of fruit a little earlier in the day. I'm usually done eating my 9 or 10 anyway, so I could start eating as early as 1 or 2.

I know - we get to eat all sorts of yummy stuff.

Holto
08-13-2007, 08:22 PM
I find it interesting BBB that a few weeks ago you were telling an overweight fighter not to drop his calories too low or he would lose muscle and now you've embraced fasting. What a different a couple of weeks makes.
http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=99490

You're just not a nice person are you. (note the lack of question mark)

BBB
08-14-2007, 06:50 AM
Holto - he doesn't get it. Even on IF your not dropping your average calories by more than 20-25%. <rolls eyes>

Holto
08-14-2007, 08:09 AM
Holto - he doesn't get it. Even on IF your not dropping your average calories by more than 20-25%. <rolls eyes>

The sad part is that I've learned some important stuff from him. He knows alot about the body but has no people skills.

Back on topic.

I'm glad people are seeing results with this diet. Sometimes you have to try a few until you find something you can stick with.

jamrock
08-14-2007, 09:08 AM
Wonky like Willy Wonka or just low blood sugar?Try a stick of gum...its not gonna cause any significant insulin response and it may help you feel better.

Well I finished my 2500 calories.Dam that was hard to get down:(Didnt think 1/2 cup of dry rice and 15 flax caps would make such a difference.

CHeck out this guys eats for the day IF style.and to think he was eating dry chicken breast with a stick of steamed brocolli every 2.89789999 hrs before this>>>>>http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=68856843&postcount=11861

That says it's a cheat. I didn't bother digging up the original post but by just the looks of that single post its just a cheet/refeed. Working my macros with BBB that would be my daily maintenance, or just short of them.. You're making it sound as if it's ok to eat this dirty (by dirty I mean containing saturated fat and refined sugar) on a regular basis.. I would assume cholesterol would be affected at some point. How do you know if you are insulin sensitive? I low carb, carb cycle, eat high carbs.. i feel the same no matter what - great. what i do notice is I shed more fat/water faster with lowcarbs...

KobeWillVindic8
08-14-2007, 09:34 AM
oh man.. the day after a (maintenance)-50% is a struggle. feel so weak and lightheaded. i hope i can make it til 1.

BBB
08-14-2007, 10:23 AM
That's the easiest day for me in terms of hunger - but the hardest in terms of being lightheaded. If I have two -50% days in a row by the third day I have no appetite at all.

Biggins
08-14-2007, 01:45 PM
That says it's a cheat. I didn't bother digging up the original post but by just the looks of that single post its just a cheet/refeed. Working my macros with BBB that would be my daily maintenance, or just short of them.. You're making it sound as if it's ok to eat this dirty (by dirty I mean containing saturated fat and refined sugar) on a regular basis.. I would assume cholesterol would be affected at some point. How do you know if you are insulin sensitive? I low carb, carb cycle, eat high carbs.. i feel the same no matter what - great. what i do notice is I shed more fat/water faster with lowcarbs...

I just posted that tto show you what that guy eats compared to what he used to eat.Every one who read that thread told him that over the longhaul that will cause health problems.

KobeWillVindic8
08-14-2007, 02:51 PM
That's the easiest day for me in terms of hunger - but the hardest in terms of being lightheaded. If I have two -50% days in a row by the third day I have no appetite at all.

yeah, i wasn't that hungry, but i just felt like i was a zombie.. couldn't focus on anything.

then around 10am, alternative resources kicked in, and i felt normal.

today's a workout day and i just killed a double western bacon cheeseburger and fries.

my stomach feels so warm as it is digesting, is that normal?

BBB
08-14-2007, 02:52 PM
I take a "free" meal once every week or so and actually - it's very easy to stay within my macros on a "free" meal nowadays, but I don't really try to. On a day to day basis though I try to avoid trans fasts, and refined sugars - esp. high fructose corn syrup. Eating like that once in a while is a nice break, but I couldn't do it everyday.

BBB
08-14-2007, 02:53 PM
my stomach feels so warm as it is digesting, is that normal?

Yep. I get warm all over any time I eat now.

Biggins
08-14-2007, 03:09 PM
Im getting less and less bloat after meals now.Thats a great sign.

KobeWillVindic8
08-14-2007, 03:40 PM
i'm assuming that a diet like this isn't meant for the long haul, right? i'm thinking 3-6 weeks at a time?

BBB
08-14-2007, 07:14 PM
From what I know some people have been doing it way longer than that and plan to do it indefinitely. I'm all about things working. I'll do it as long as it works.

KingWilder
08-14-2007, 07:51 PM
I plan on doing it so long as it doesn't interfere with my life haha

I might have to switch it up soon depending on my work schedule (class in the mornings, work at night)...hopefully I can stay with IF though

Biggins
08-18-2007, 05:27 PM
Little update.I cant believe it but I have been doing mcdonalds IF and much more calories than I first thought Id need.Doing 2600 per day and amazingly my body is changing fast.Muscle memory has me looking bigger what seems daily.Yet my pants are getting looser:)

I should say that I am following the warrior diet instead though.I eat one huge meal a day so....

Biggins
08-20-2007, 08:10 PM
I started adding two supplements to my arsenal while removing one...dextrose.Removing the dextrose was because it causes way to much insulin release.I would get super low blood sugar on busride home from gym...very annoying feeling.

Eating this way is fixing the damage but its the old...1 step foward/1 step back.Anyway,Id rather take my carbs in with rice,pasta,potaoes and veggies.

I now workout fasted and right after I have a 100gm whey shake up from 50.This allows me to easily meet my protein quota with just an 8oz serving of whatever meat I choose.Then the rest of my remaining meal is the starch/veggies.

The 2 supplements I have added are....1 tbsp of cinammon into my whey shake.Then I down a shot of vinegar,followed by my high carb meal.These 2 items have shown great improvements in the amount of blood sugar rise that occurs with high carb meals.They promote insulin sensitivity.Today I noticed a much improved after effect from my meal.....meaning I didnt wanna crash out and wake up with a hangover from the sugar rush.

Give these 2 a try.

BBB
08-20-2007, 10:37 PM
Hmmmm.....that's funny cause I sleep far less on IF. And no way am I 1) working out fasted or 2) drinking straight vinegar....yuck.

Biggins
08-21-2007, 12:14 PM
Hmmmm.....that's funny cause I sleep far less on IF. And no way am I 1) working out fasted or 2) drinking straight vinegar....yuck.

I sleep less also,been averaging 4 hrs a night.I never said I was sleeping more.I get knocked the **** out from the huge meal I injest.I wake up an hour later feeling terrible.You dont have blood sugar issues...judging by how lean you are... so you wont know where im coming from.I like to call it "Carbohydrate HELL".

The working out fasted suprised me.I was expecting to go super low blood sugar and didnt.....then crashed hard afterwards tho:(

You could try the old vinegar/water/honey and ice bit.Or eat a nice salad with oil and vinegar dressing to start your meal.

ray34iyf
08-21-2007, 12:27 PM
If anyone is having trouble eating alot in a short time period, just have a high calorie shake in there somewhere. Makes it alot easier that way.

Biggins
08-21-2007, 12:32 PM
If anyone is having trouble eating alot in a short time period, just have a high calorie shake in there somewhere. Makes it alot easier that way.

I agree.My shake PWO runs at 100gms protein.....thats one pound of turkey breast i would have to eat to meet that.Plus I consume close to 200gms so thats a major difference.

BBB
08-21-2007, 12:41 PM
I agree with that as well.

And Biggins - I have yet to write about this but I've relaxed my IF somewhat. I eat a little less on WO days, a liittle more on Non-WO days, and my window for eating is a little bigger as well - more like 9-10 hours as opposed to 8. IF-lite. I eat around 12-1, again around 4-5, and again between 8 and 9. The strict IF was good for me to do for awhile since it helped me make a clean break from the eating every 3 hours b.s. But in the end it the extremes were a little overwhelming for me. I've settled into a pretty comfortable eating pattern which I needed.

And I'm not all that lean. :-/

Biggins
08-21-2007, 02:19 PM
I agree with that as well.

And Biggins - I have yet to write about this but I've relaxed my IF somewhat. I eat a little less on WO days, a liittle more on Non-WO days, and my window for eating is a little bigger as well - more like 9-10 hours as opposed to 8. IF-lite. I eat around 12-1, again around 4-5, and again between 8 and 9. The strict IF was good for me to do for awhile since it helped me make a clean break from the eating every 3 hours b.s. But in the end it the extremes were a little overwhelming for me. I've settled into a pretty comfortable eating pattern which I needed.

And I'm not all that lean. :-/

I like the warrior diet of one huge meal....plus my PWO shake.I do eat a small bag of mixed nuts during fast tho.This eases the stomach growls.

Hey why doesnt your new vid work....I thoiught it was just me on my end but noticed you had only 6 views.Your other vid still works on my pc and that has 505 views.????

BBB
08-21-2007, 07:27 PM
The new video is set to private. You have to be invited to watch it. If you'd like an invite just PM me your e-mail addy.

espn2829
08-21-2007, 11:14 PM
Hello guys, I want to add muscle but lose body fat (I'm sure many people want to do that, lol :D ), so I am considering Intermittent Fasting.

Basically, if I understand correctly, fast non-stop for 16 hours and then eat in the 8 hours. If this is correct, then this is my schedule:

11PM - 3PM - Fasting
3PM-11PM - Eating

Is it ok to workout during the fasting phase?

I based this schedule on my lunch break, which is at 3PM. Please tell me if this is ok. Thank you.

KobeWillVindic8
08-22-2007, 02:12 AM
man.. i couldn't endure this for more than 1 week.. of course, i attempted this after already cutting for about 5 months... but i was dying the nights of my non-workout days.

hopefully others have better luck.

back to maintenance for me.

BBB
08-22-2007, 07:23 AM
Hello guys, I want to add muscle but lose body fat (I'm sure many people want to do that, lol :D ), so I am considering Intermittent Fasting.

Basically, if I understand correctly, fast non-stop for 16 hours and then eat in the 8 hours. If this is correct, then this is my schedule:

11PM - 3PM - Fasting
3PM-11PM - Eating

Is it ok to workout during the fasting phase?

I based this schedule on my lunch break, which is at 3PM. Please tell me if this is ok. Thank you.

Go back and read the entire thread.

WBBIRL
09-07-2007, 01:19 PM
Big IRL is giving IF its chance.

I'm going to school now so I usually spend from 9-2 on campus and don't eat in the mornings. This pretty much makes it no stretch at all to follow the diet.

I can eat from 2-10 and follow this diet. I'm a big boy but have a slow metabolism... I probably maintain at 3500 at best and I'm 5'10 265 pounds. I'd say that 3000 is a more realistic maintenance for the time being.

3000x7=21,000 calories per week

I want to lose on average 1.5 pounds per week

1.5x 3,500 = 5,250

5,250/7 = 750 calories net loss per day on average

15750 is 75% of my maintenance which seems to be the extreme of what they want you to go with for a reduction.

Questions about IF.

Do you basically have to feed this like a PSMF? I would think that you would need to keep it similar, but really that strict?

Stimulants, just how helpful are they? Do they help with energy or appetite or both?

I've done this diet "loosely" for 3 days now and hunger, while seeming to be a pain in the ranges of noon to 2 or so, is easy to put up with knowing soon you can eat and that you'll be going to be full. It will be even easier once I start eating enough protein as protein fills me up and would much more then say the higher amounts of carbs (relatively) that I've been eating.

Any other advice would be great.

nzk
09-13-2007, 10:22 PM
fact: once the body's glycogen stores are depleted, it will catabolize protein for glucose before burning fat (up to a certain point)

fact: the body needs a continuous supply of protein for enzyme turnover, muscle building, tissue repair etc. this comes from diet or muscle mass.

so from what i understand from reading about the IF diet is that if you deplete your glycogen stores every day, burn a little bit of muscle every day, you will still be able to gain muscle mass and/or burn fat?

please explain.

WBBIRL
09-13-2007, 10:51 PM
fact: once the body's glycogen stores are depleted, it will catabolize protein for glucose before burning fat (up to a certain point)

fact: the body needs a continuous supply of protein for enzyme turnover, muscle building, tissue repair etc. this comes from diet or muscle mass.

so from what i understand from reading about the IF diet is that if you deplete your glycogen stores every day, burn a little bit of muscle every day, you will still be able to gain muscle mass and/or burn fat?

please explain.

IF isn't about depleting your body of glycogen, its about allowing you to reap the benefits of longer fasts without the "length".

I found it much easier to fast from say 10 PM at night until 2 PM the next day. I might get a tad hungry around 12 - 1 but I can wait the 1-2 hours knowing I'm in for being full right up until bed and that I'll be losing weight.

Feeding the IF diet like a PSMF, in my own theory, would be a double whammy. All the benefits of the fasting while keeping your body in ketosis dropping fat at an alarming rate.

You can even over eat your manintance calories like the IF diet calls for, just making sure to keep the macros in order.

nzk
09-13-2007, 11:03 PM
if u fast for more than 8-10 hours, ur body's glycogen stores in the liver and muscle will be depleted, unless u slept the entire 16 hours. u will also burn muscle during that time because your protein intake will be 0 for 16 hours.

i really want to try this diet, but just cant understand how this works physiologically. due to the attention this is getting on many boards, i must be missing something.