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Warrior10
08-19-2007, 10:12 PM
WBB forumites, some insight please.

I've been off a cut for about three weeks now and am ready to start bulking again. While I could stand to cut a bit more, to be honest I feel a bit too skinny. I guess that's what cutting after a HUGE bulk does to you.

Anyway, I've got a little bit of fat left over on my lower face and stomach. My question is, if I start to bulk cleanly (which includes eating the right food to do so), will this small amount of excess fat disappear?

My logic in asking this question is that the carb I eat on a clean bulk will feed muscle growth and little of it (carb) would be left over as fat, and at the same time my excess bodyfat would be burned off.

OR

Should I continue cutting until the bodyfat goes and I look skinnier than I'd like to look...then clean bulk afterwards?


Thank you kindly,
Warrior10.

ADT
08-20-2007, 12:21 AM
WBB forumites, some insight please.

I've been off a cut for about three weeks now and am ready to start bulking again. While I could stand to cut a bit more, to be honest I feel a bit too skinny. I guess that's what cutting after a HUGE bulk does to you.

No offense, but you need to make up your mind on what you want to accomplish. It only took three sentences and you have already changed your mind. If you feel too skinny, you do not need to keep cutting. What most likely happened is that you cut down and weren't pleased with how much muscle (if any) you were left with. Maybe you cut (lost weight) too fast?


Anyway, I've got a little bit of fat left over on my lower face and stomach. My question is, if I start to bulk cleanly (which includes eating the right food to do so), will this small amount of excess fat disappear?

When you bulk, you gain weight, so what's your guess? What logic do you have to support that by increasing your caloric intake you'll lose unwanted fat around your face?


My logic in asking this question is that the carb I eat on a clean bulk will feed muscle growth and little of it (carb) would be left over as fat, and at the same time my excess bodyfat would be burned off.

Okay, now I am really lost. Read what you typed about carbs. Can you clarify what you're asking? Do you know what you're asking? I believe you are talking about a recomposition. Correct?



OR

Should I continue cutting until the bodyfat goes and I look skinnier than I'd like to look...then clean bulk afterwards?

If this is just about a "fat" face then why don't you experiment with a restriction of your salt and water intake levels?

Excuse me for saying so but this whole issue seems very trivial. Be patient. You said you came off a "HUGE" bulk. Your body takes time to get to the desired look you seek. Who knows, you could be a week a way from the body...er... face you desire.

Best,
ADT

Warrior10
08-20-2007, 09:24 AM
No offense, but you need to make up your mind on what you want to accomplish. It only took three sentences and you have already changed your mind. If you feel too skinny, you do not need to keep cutting. What most likely happened is that you cut down and weren't pleased with how much muscle (if any) you were left with. Maybe you cut (lost weight) too fast?



When you bulk, you gain weight, so what's your guess? What logic do you have to support that by increasing your caloric intake you'll lose unwanted fat around your face?



Okay, now I am really lost. Read what you typed about carbs. Can you clarify what you're asking? Do you know what you're asking? I believe you are talking about a recomposition. Correct?



If this is just about a "fat" face then why don't you experiment with a restriction of your salt and water intake levels?

Excuse me for saying so but this whole issue seems very trivial. Be patient. You said you came off a "HUGE" bulk. Your body takes time to get to the desired look you seek. Who knows, you could be a week a way from the body...er... face you desire.

Best,
ADT

ADT,

first of all, thanks for the response, much appreciated.

What I understand clean bulking to be is bulking while eating foods that would allow for minimal bodyfat. That's my logic there...clean bulking is slower than dirty bulking in terms of seeing results. And some carbs are better than others in a clean bulk.

I'm not sure if you understood what I was trying to get at. I have been patient...I came off a huge bulk a few months ago (been cutting since then) and would like to start bulking again, cleanly, so as to minimize bodyfat acquisition.

ADT
08-20-2007, 05:33 PM
ADT,

first of all, thanks for the response, much appreciated.

What I understand clean bulking to be is bulking while eating foods that would allow for minimal bodyfat. That's my logic there...clean bulking is slower than dirty bulking in terms of seeing results. And some carbs are better than others in a clean bulk.

First of all, you're welcome. Your understanding of a clean bulk is correct. The results of a bulk are partially meausred on what and how much food you consume - correct as well. (Of course, a good routine is the other part of that equation.) Different kinds of carbohydrates do have different effects on your body - correct again.


I'm not sure if you understood what I was trying to get at. I have been patient...I came off a huge bulk a few months ago (been cutting since then) and would like to start bulking again, cleanly, so as to minimize bodyfat acquisition.

On behalf of all members here at Wanna Be Big forums, I give you permission to bulk cleanly!

Best,
ADT

Built
08-20-2007, 05:56 PM
ADT, are you suggesting that something other than the calories and macronutrient breakdown of your food will determine the outcome of a bulk, everything else being equal?

MMEI
08-20-2007, 09:41 PM
Built, take a look at some studies done with isocaloric intakes. Many of them show a difference in weight loss when comparing types of calories, even though its the same amount of energy put in. This topic has always fascinated me.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=543577

Now with bulking, I'm beginning to think theres something true about this eating 'clean' business. For instance, drink a can of soda. You get an insulin spike, and that sugar running wild in your system is promptly placed into your fat stores to keep blood sugar stable. Your muscle doesn't necessarily feed off stored fat to build (at least on a caloric surplus). On the other hand, you get a serving of slow-digesting oats and you receive a constant stream of energy that your muscles can readily utilize throughout the day when it needs it. Now this is from my severely limited knowledge of nutrition, and I know I need to read a lot more to get a more substantial idea of how things work, but thats just my two cents on the issue.

Built
08-20-2007, 10:00 PM
Loss and gain are QUITE different. If you can induce insulin resistance, you'll retain more LBM on a cut than if you don't. On a bulk, insulin resistance is exactly what you do NOT want. And these studies aren't done on bodybuilders.

BBB
08-20-2007, 10:10 PM
Built, take a look at some studies done with isocaloric intakes. Many of them show a difference in weight loss when comparing types of calories, even though its the same amount of energy put in. This topic has always fascinated me.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=543577

Now with bulking, I'm beginning to think theres something true about this eating 'clean' business. For instance, drink a can of soda. You get an insulin spike, and that sugar running wild in your system is promptly placed into your fat stores to keep blood sugar stable. Your muscle doesn't necessarily feed off stored fat to build (at least on a caloric surplus). On the other hand, you get a serving of slow-digesting oats and you receive a constant stream of energy that your muscles can readily utilize throughout the day when it needs it. Now this is from my severely limited knowledge of nutrition, and I know I need to read a lot more to get a more substantial idea of how things work, but thats just my two cents on the issue.

The article you site is about the metabolic advantage of low carb diets vs. high carb diets where low carb diets have high protein. Not about the TYPE of carbohydrate.

MMEI
08-20-2007, 10:47 PM
The article you site is about the metabolic advantage of low carb diets vs. high carb diets where low carb diets have high protein. Not about the TYPE of carbohydrate.

Right, but I was trying to point out that calories are not all equal. Anyway it probably wasn't the best example.

MMEI
08-20-2007, 10:48 PM
Loss and gain are QUITE different. If you can induce insulin resistance, you'll retain more LBM on a cut than if you don't. On a bulk, insulin resistance is exactly what you do NOT want. And these studies aren't done on bodybuilders.

Does my soda vs oats analogy have any merit?

XYU
08-21-2007, 07:50 AM
Does my soda vs oats analogy have any merit?

Yes. dont drink soda. Unless it's Dr. Pepper. If it's Dr. Pepper, go nuts, it's high in protein.

ADT
08-21-2007, 10:25 AM
ADT, are you suggesting that something other than the calories and macronutrient breakdown of your food will determine the outcome of a bulk, everything else being equal?


...The results of a bulk are partially meausred on what and how much food you consume - correct as well. (Of course, a good routine is the other part of that equation.)...

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I just tacked that last part on to not confuse the original poster of the thread. A different word other than "partially" would have been more appropriate - especially in this case.

Thanks,
ADT

Dizzee
08-21-2007, 10:52 AM
Is Dr Pepper really high in protein?

bigedge
08-21-2007, 07:03 PM
Is Dr Pepper really high in protein?


haha. only if you add it yourself
otherwise it contains 0g of protein

Warrior10
08-27-2007, 10:34 AM
Too bad I didn't get an answer to my original question; at least I don't think I did.

Con
08-27-2007, 11:24 AM
Im guessing you are talking about this question:
My logic in asking this question is that the carb I eat on a clean bulk will feed muscle growth and little of it (carb) would be left over as fat, and at the same time my excess bodyfat would be burned off.

OR

Should I continue cutting until the bodyfat goes and I look skinnier than I'd like to look...then clean bulk afterwards?

To be blunt, the first part makes no sense. Except for rare occasions, you cannot lose mass(muscle, fat, w/e) and can mass(muscle, fat, w/e) at the same time. It takes complete opposites to faciliate these reactions in the body.

Now the other thing I'd like to say is quite simple, and it something I am still coming to terms with. You have to choose what you want to do. Apart from educating yourself, and having knowledge influencing your decisions, these forums are a lot more useful as a tool for learning.

To a point, a lower body fat% will make a bulk more efficient. Im my opinion, why not take things slow, and make small changes for the long run.

Ok, im done rambling, hope I made sense.

Questor
08-27-2007, 11:26 AM
If your maint is 3000 calories, then 5000 calories of baby carrots will still make you fat. :)

Might as well have five SpiceySouthwest SUPERSONIC Double Cheeseburgers and call it done.

LOL.

Outshine
08-27-2007, 11:28 AM
Too bad I didn't get an answer to my original question; at least I don't think I did.

Even though you did get an answer, I'll answer anyway.


My question is, if I start to bulk cleanly (which includes eating the right food to do so), will this small amount of excess fat disappear?

No, not at all. Bulking will only add to whatever fat you already have, not reduce it. All bulking cleanly will do is help keep NEW fat gain lower than if you bulked dirty.


Should I continue cutting until the bodyfat goes and I look skinnier than I'd like to look...then clean bulk afterwards?

This one depends on nothing but your own opinion. If you cut further, it may have a positive effect on your partioning when you bulk. On the other hand, you don't want to look any skinnier than you currently do, and cutting further will cause this to happen.

This one is up to you.

Rodzilla
08-27-2007, 12:47 PM
I hope what i add here is of benefit.

Personally i only ever clean bulk.

I know i can maintain X body weight at X amount of calories. To me increasing my caloric intake by X amount simply by consuming junk is pointless to me.

I like to eat clean and know what i'm eating. Regardless of bulking or cutting.

Warrior10
09-03-2007, 01:06 AM
Even though you did get an answer, I'll answer anyway.


No, not at all. Bulking will only add to whatever fat you already have, not reduce it. All bulking cleanly will do is help keep NEW fat gain lower than if you bulked dirty.

This one depends on nothing but your own opinion. If you cut further, it may have a positive effect on your partioning when you bulk. On the other hand, you don't want to look any skinnier than you currently do, and cutting further will cause this to happen.

This one is up to you.


I spoke to one of the personal trainers at the gym I work at and he said don't worry about bulking or cutting at this point, just bulk cleanly and I will gain size. The part the was most significant is that he said that the fat I have will be used to build muscle as I clean bulk. Thus, by that logic, I gather that the fat I have will eventually be burned as I clean bulk....and also further bodyfat acquisition would be kept at a low. Any thoughts?

smalls
09-03-2007, 01:42 AM
Right, but I was trying to point out that calories are not all equal. Anyway it probably wasn't the best example.

So give us some good examples, because even health oriented agencies like AHA reference the fact that isocaloric diets result is no statistically significant difference in weight loss, but that health is a different story. I'm having a hard time finding studies either way so if you could give us some actual isocaloric diet studies that would be great.

smalls
09-03-2007, 01:45 AM
I spoke to one of the personal trainers at the gym I work at and he said don't worry about bulking or cutting at this point, just bulk cleanly and I will gain size. The part the was most significant is that he said that the fat I have will be used to build muscle as I clean bulk. Thus, by that logic, I gather that the fat I have will eventually be burned as I clean bulk....and also further bodyfat acquisition would be kept at a low. Any thoughts?

You have obviously learned nothing from reading the information presented to you. Do some research on cutting and bulking on this website and others, look up maintenance calories etc. Then look up the laws of thermodynamics.

Fat already stored in your body, WILL NOT HELP YOU GAIN MUSCLE, stop listening to that personal trainer.

Outshine
09-03-2007, 08:46 AM
In my life, I'd say 1 out of every 10 personal trainers I've come across at my gym have had even half a clue as to what they're doing/saying.

Without drug use, if you bulk (as in eat more than maintenance) you're not going to lose fat. At best (as in done as slowly and cleanly as possible), you'll gain muscle along with a very small amount of fat.

Warrior10
09-03-2007, 10:45 AM
You have obviously learned nothing from reading the information presented to you. Do some research on cutting and bulking on this website and others, look up maintenance calories etc. Then look up the laws of thermodynamics.

Fat already stored in your body, WILL NOT HELP YOU GAIN MUSCLE, stop listening to that personal trainer.

Contrary to what you said, I've learnt a lot from the information presented to me here. I appreciate everyone's response as I have said before and haven't dismissed it at all. So I don't know why you assume that.

I merely presented another opinion from a personal trainer at my gym. If he looks like he knows what he's saying and has the experience, why should I not take his input into consideration? Thanks for your $0.02 though.

smalls
09-04-2007, 01:06 AM
Because it's incorect, which a very rudementary understanding of mainenance calories, gaining weight, and your own body should give you. Maybe I was a little harsh, but your trainer said the exact opposite of what pretty much everyone here said and you still stated it like a valid question. How in gods name is your stored bodyfat going to supply the nitrogen and amino acids necassary to produce muscle tissue.

Vapour Trails
09-04-2007, 01:05 PM
Built, take a look at some studies done with isocaloric intakes. Many of them show a difference in weight loss when comparing types of calories, even though its the same amount of energy put in. This topic has always fascinated me.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=543577

Now with bulking, I'm beginning to think theres something true about this eating 'clean' business. For instance, drink a can of soda. You get an insulin spike, and that sugar running wild in your system is promptly placed into your fat stores to keep blood sugar stable. Your muscle doesn't necessarily feed off stored fat to build (at least on a caloric surplus). On the other hand, you get a serving of slow-digesting oats and you receive a constant stream of energy that your muscles can readily utilize throughout the day when it needs it. Now this is from my severely limited knowledge of nutrition, and I know I need to read a lot more to get a more substantial idea of how things work, but thats just my two cents on the issue.

Wrong, wrong wrong

There have been studies in metabolic chambers were groups were fed high GI and low GI diets that contains the same amount of energy. High GI did not contribute to gain of fat over low GI. It's about the total amount of energy.

Clean bulking is mythology. Don't want to gain excess fat? Bulk slowly. If you are eating too much, it doesn't matter if it's coming from organic natural hippy peanut butter or eating steak, you will get fat. Set reasonable calorie and macro goals and meet them with whatever you feel like eating.

Warrior10
09-04-2007, 03:11 PM
Because it's incorect, which a very rudementary understanding of mainenance calories, gaining weight, and your own body should give you. Maybe I was a little harsh, but your trainer said the exact opposite of what pretty much everyone here said and you still stated it like a valid question. How in gods name is your stored bodyfat going to supply the nitrogen and amino acids necassary to produce muscle tissue.

Fair enough...but in building muscle don't you burn fat? That's probably where that idea came from.

monkeyarms
09-04-2007, 03:24 PM
Fair enough...but in building muscle don't you burn fat? That's probably where that idea came from.

no. in building muscle you also gain fat.

Outshine
09-04-2007, 03:59 PM
Fair enough...but in building muscle don't you burn fat? That's probably where that idea came from.

Muscle itself requires additional energy for the body to maintain, so the more muscle you have, the more calories your body will burn at rest.

However, this has nothing to do with the question you are trying to have answered in this thread, which is basically "when in a caloric surplus, will you burn fat?" The answer, for the 10 billionth time, is no.