PDA

View Full Version : diet..



getb1g
08-19-2007, 10:21 PM
If I wanna bulk in muscle ASAP weighing in a 155 now 5'11''
How many calories should i take in? 3500-4000 a good range?
I wanna weigh in at 170 ASAP with lean cut muscle.

What I'm guessing is
180-200 Grams protein.
3500-4000 calories


Clueless about the carbs...

deeder
08-19-2007, 10:28 PM
What are you eating right now?

getb1g
08-19-2007, 11:03 PM
right now im on a ****ty diet that consists of <2000 calories.. shortly i will be making the switch..

Outshine
08-20-2007, 09:21 AM
Here's how you figure it out. Weigh yourself consistently (first thing in the morning once a week is good). Then, consistently eat the same number of calories each day.

Do this for a week or two.

If your weight isn't increasing at all (a rate of 0.5-1lb per week is good), add 250-500 more calories.

Do this for a week or two.

If your weight isn't increasing at all (a rate of 0.5-1lb per week is good), add 250-500 more calories.

Do this for a week or two.

If your weight isn't increasing at all (a rate of 0.5-1lb per week is good), add 250-500 more calories.

etc.

Cirino83
08-20-2007, 11:08 AM
^^ what he said as far as calories. As far as fats..keep them at .5g/lb, protein 1.5g/lb and carbs at whatever fits into your caloric goal.

deeder
08-20-2007, 11:48 AM
right now im on a ****ty diet that consists of <2000 calories.. shortly i will be making the switch..

So you intend on doubling your food intake overnight? One of two things is going to happen:

1. You'll get fat.

2. You'll be so sick of eating that you won't even have time to get fat before you give up.

RichMcGuire
08-20-2007, 12:10 PM
On a side note, when you increase your overall calories, you may want to increase your overall fats and proteins while decreasing carbs. You can get most of them before and after a workout. Dont forgo them completely, but excess carbs is the quickest way to add unwanted body fat.

deeder
08-20-2007, 12:18 PM
On a side note, when you increase your overall calories, you may want to increase your overall fats and proteins while decreasing carbs. You can get most of them before and after a workout. Dont forgo them completely, but excess carbs is the quickest way to add unwanted body fat.

But excess protein and fats won't? Care to explain? Excess calories of any sort will make you fat.

WORLD
08-20-2007, 12:22 PM
I'm not sure what your huge rush is, but I would slow down a little bit. Gaining that much muscle is not going to happen over night. Your trying to make a lifestyle change, and that's something that you will have to work in slowly. Listen to what Deeder and Outshine said.
You said it yourself, your clueless about carbs, which basically means your clueless about calories in general. Read a few of the stickies and articles on this site, and you'll definetely have a better understanding about what you need to do. Bodybuilding is something you simply have to understand.

Good luck bud.

RichMcGuire
08-20-2007, 12:35 PM
But excess protein and fats won't? Care to explain? Excess calories of any sort will make you fat.


Indeed, Carbohydrates are your bodies first choice of energy for intense, short duration exercise, but working out with weights may not burn all that many calories anyways. Maybe 300-500 calories per hour depending on some variables. This is why many people have Protein + Fat during the day and Protein + Carbs before and after a workout.

It makes sense to cut carbs from your diet somewhat since theyre easily converted to fat when they arent needed for immediate energy and theres no room in your muscles to store them. And when theres no carbs for energy, your body shifts into using fat. This seems more pratical for body composition reasons. And as you know, if you are still getting enough calories and protein while progressing on weights, you will get bigger.

deeder
08-20-2007, 02:10 PM
Indeed, Carbohydrates are your bodies first choice of energy for intense, short duration exercise, but working out with weights may not burn all that many calories anyways. Maybe 300-500 calories per hour depending on some variables. This is why many people have Protein + Fat during the day and Protein + Carbs before and after a workout.

No, many people save their carbs for pre and post workout meals because they are cutting and want to have energy for their workouts. What does how many calories you burn lifting weights have to do with eating carbs?

It makes sense to cut carbs from your diet somewhat since theyre easily converted to fat when they arent needed for immediate energy and theres no room in your muscles to store them. And when theres no carbs for energy, your body shifts into using fat. This seems more pratical for body composition reasons. And as you know, if you are still getting enough calories and protein while progressing on weights, you will get bigger.

So fat and protein aren't "easily converted to fat"?? You do realize there's more to carbs than dextrose in a shake right? You could have some potatoes, rice, oats or other 'lower' GI carbs when you're not going to workout. Do you really think that the body will start using your fat stores for energy while you're eating fats and proteins just because you haven't disgested any carbs?


There's nothing wrong with eating carbs. Especially on a bulk. I take in 300+ grams of carbs most days...

Outshine
08-20-2007, 02:19 PM
I take in 300+ grams of carbs most days...

I'm currently eating 275 grams of carbs per day at the end of a cut. :cool:

Trevor M.
08-20-2007, 02:37 PM
Indeed, Carbohydrates are your bodies first choice of energy for intense, short duration exercise, but working out with weights may not burn all that many calories anyways. Maybe 300-500 calories per hour depending on some variables. This is why many people have Protein + Fat during the day and Protein + Carbs before and after a workout.

It makes sense to cut carbs from your diet somewhat since they're easily converted to fat when they arent needed for immediate energy and theres no room in your muscles to store them. And when theres no carbs for energy, your body shifts into using fat. This seems more practical for body composition reasons. And as you know, if you are still getting enough calories and protein while progressing on weights, you will get bigger.

If there are no carbs anaerobic and aerobic performance will suffer. The body will enter a ketogenic state.The body is much more likely to become dehydrated due to increased protein hydrolysis. Fatigue can become a constant.
Proteins use as a energy substrate will increase. for the body to maintain stable and constant blood glucose levels. Amino acids originating from the muscular system must be converted to glucose through gluconeogenesis. In which case is BAD for any bulk.

Your body will not "shift" to using fat. Carbohydrate will remain the only macro possible to be used as an energy substrate for generation of ATP anaerobically.

And the body will always "technically" have some carbs for use. Look at the Cori cycle for example.

In the end lipogensis affects both protein and carbohydrates. So their "both easily converted to fat".

RichMcGuire
08-20-2007, 03:53 PM
There's nothing wrong with eating carbs. Especially on a bulk. I take in 300+ grams of carbs most days...

Because, if you burn 300 calories for working out, how many grams of carbs is that that you need? ;)

Without excess carbs, fat is used as energy. Excess protein can be lost in urine.

Lemme ask you this, what happens when your muscles and liver cannot use any more carbs? :scratch:



If there are no carbs anaerobic and aerobic performance will suffer. The body will enter a ketogenic state.The body is much more likely to become dehydrated due to increased protein hydrolysis. Fatigue can become a constant.
Proteins use as a energy substrate will increase. for the body to maintain stable and constant blood glucose levels. Amino acids originating from the muscular system must be converted to glucose through gluconeogenesis. In which case is BAD for any bulk.

Your body will not "shift" to using fat. Carbohydrate will remain the only macro possible to be used as an energy substrate for generation of ATP anaerobically.

And the body will always "technically" have some carbs for use. Look at the Cori cycle for example.

In the end lipogensis affects both protein and carbohydrates. So their "both easily converted to fat".


Actually, your body does shift to using fat as energy. Thats the whole point of a "starvation mode" Look that up. Your body saves fat in order to live off of it later as ENERGY.

This is why you have carbs pre and post workouts. You simply dont go into a ketogenic state. I never said to have "no carbs". I said a limit on them is a good idea.

Your workouts will also NOT suffer since you are getting pre and post carbs..but again, I did mention to do that ;)

So while everything you said was true, it was assuming you were depleted of carbs entirely..you seem to have overlooked the importance of Pre and Post Carbohydrates. :windup: Pre carbs that are easily digested allow for the generation of ATP anaerobically for your workouts. And then you get more after the workout.

deeder
08-20-2007, 04:17 PM
Because, if you burn 300 calories for working out, how many grams of carbs is that that you need? ;)

What is your opposition to eating carbs throughout the day?

Without excess carbs, fat is used as energy. Excess protein can be lost in urine.

If you're eating over maintenance calories your body will not use up fat stores. Regardless of what you eat. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Lemme ask you this, what happens when your muscles and liver cannot use any more carbs? :scratch:

Uhh... What?



Actually, your body does shift to using fat as energy. Thats the whole point of a "starvation mode" Look that up. Your body saves fat in order to live off of it later as ENERGY.

NOT IF YOU'RE EATING ABOVE MAINTENANCE.

This is why you have carbs pre and post workouts. You simply dont go into a ketogenic state. I never said to have "no carbs". I said a limit on them is a good idea.

Your workouts will also NOT suffer since you are getting pre and post carbs..but again, I did mention to do that ;)

So while everything you said was true, it was assuming you were depleted of carbs entirely..you seem to have overlooked the importance of Pre and Post Carbohydrates. :windup: Pre carbs that are easily digested allow for the generation of ATP anaerobically for your workouts. And then you get more after the workout.

Please tell me you're just trying to get under my skin....

RichMcGuire
08-20-2007, 04:24 PM
Please tell me you're just trying to get under my skin....

I dont have any opposition about eating carbs throughout the day. I just think they should be limited except for the pre and post meals.

If you eat above maintenance and have excess carbs, youll be more likely to store body fat. I hate to burst your bubble as well but you dont seem to understand a very simple concept. Excess carbs are stored as fat when your muscles and liver can no longer hold anymore.

Uhh what? I was looking for an answer. Lemme give you a hint. The answers right above ;) I bolded it for you too!

I used the starvation mode as an example of fat being used for energy. Thats all.. It wasnt even a reply to you.

Im not trying to get under your skin. But I doubt youll be willing to debate science when your general solution is to eat and eat and eat. Its a completely different spectrum.

Trevor M.
08-20-2007, 04:31 PM
Because, if you burn 300 calories for working out, how many grams of carbs is that that you need? ;)

Without excess carbs, fat is used as energy. Excess protein can be lost in urine.

Lemme ask you this, what happens when your muscles and liver cannot use any more carbs? :scratch:





Actually, your body does shift to using fat as energy. Thats the whole point of a "starvation mode" Look that up. Your body saves fat in order to live off of it later as ENERGY.

This is why you have carbs pre and post workouts. You simply dont go into a ketogenic state. I never said to have "no carbs". I said a limit on them is a good idea.

Your workouts will also NOT suffer since you are getting pre and post carbs..but again, I did mention to do that ;)

So while everything you said was true, it was assuming you were depleted of carbs entirely..you seem to have overlooked the importance of Pre and Post Carbohydrates. :windup: Pre carbs that are easily digested allow for the generation of ATP anaerobically for your workouts. And then you get more after the workout.

Excess protein lost in the urine? Thats Not quite correct. After deanimation(the process at which it looses its nitrogen) is what forms urea. Once this is done it will either be converted to carbs or lipids. It can also at sometimes be used directly for energy production.

"starvation mode" is a reduction in BMR/RMR. It has a strong connection with leptin levels. Generally speaking when leptin levels begin to fall the body compensates by down-regulating metabolism and increasing hunger. Of course leptin isn't the only hormone that is involved. Of course we can not forget about Leptin resistance (as in many highly overweight people) it can lead to a noticeable negitive affect on weight loss.
So, What does that have to do with this? As this person was bulking if I remember correctly.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point. I never debated the body's greater capacity to use fat as an energy substrate during aerobic conditions. This is where the increase in fat utilization occurs. Although, no performance benefit has ever been found from this.

Pre and post workout are not enough to sustain near maximum capacity of glycogen. Look at glycogen replenishment times. As you can see it takes quite some time to "refuel" glycogen stores. Meaning, carbs around the workout alone are not optimum. Especially considering that a High GI carb prior to exercise dramatically reduces performance. So again, pre workout carb intake would have to remain slow digesting Low GI. So, you would still be going into the workout "ill prepared" and glycogen levels low.

You seamed to not debate the process of lipogenesis. In which case I assume you are no longer making the argument that carbs are stored as fat easier. If this is the case then why would you want to sacrifice carb intake? Because it will have a detrimental affect on performance with no actual benefit.

deeder
08-20-2007, 04:34 PM
I dont have any opposition about eating carbs throughout the day. I just think they should be limited except for the pre and post meals.


What for? So you can feel like crap all day with no energy?



If you eat above maintenance and have excess carbs, youll be more likely to store body fat. I hate to burst your bubble as well but you dont seem to understand a very simple concept. Excess carbs are stored as fat when your muscles and liver can no longer hold anymore.

Uhh what? I was looking for an answer. Lemme give you a hint. The answers right above ;) I bolded it for you too!

I used the starvation mode as an example of fat being used for energy. Thats all.. It wasnt even a reply to you.


Ok, excess carbs will be stored as fat. Yes I agree... What will excess fats and proteins be stored as?

Just so we get this straight... In my question above, I'm talking about fats that you ingest, not fat stored in your body.



Im not trying to get under your skin. But I doubt youll be willing to debate science when your general solution is to eat and eat and eat. Its a completely different spectrum.

No need to try to belittle me. I think my results since joining this forum speak for themselves. I understand bulking and cutting and I understand basic nutritional concepts. Ie: If you eat above maintenance, you will store fat. Never burn fat. Regardless of what your macro-nutrient breakdown is throughout the day.

RichMcGuire
08-20-2007, 04:39 PM
Excess protein lost in the urine? Thats Not quite correct. After deanimation(the process at which it looses its nitrogen) is what forms urea. Once this is done it will either be converted to carbs or lipids. It can also at sometimes be used directly for energy production.

"starvation mode" is a reduction in BMR/RMR. It has a strong connection with leptin levels. Generally speaking when leptin levels begin to fall the body compensates by down-regulating metabolism and increasing hunger. Of course leptin isn't the only hormone that is involved. Of course we can not forget about Leptin resistance (as in many highly overweight people) it can lead to a noticeable negitive affect on weight loss.
So, What does that have to do with this? As this person was bulking if I remember correctly.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point. I never debated the body's greater capacity to use fat as an energy substrate during aerobic conditions. This is where the increase in fat utilization occurs. Although, no performance benefit has ever been found from this.

Pre and post workout are not enough to sustain near maximum capacity of glycogen. Look at glycogen replenishment times. As you can see it takes quite some time to "refuel" glycogen stores. Meaning, carbs around the workout alone are not optimum. Especially considering that a High GI carb prior to exercise dramatically reduces performance. So again, pre workout carb intake would have to remain slow digesting Low GI. So, you would still be going into the workout "ill prepared" and glycogen levels low.

You seamed to not debate the process of lipogenesis. In which case I assume you are no longer making the argument that carbs are stored as fat easier. If this is the case then why would you want to sacrifice carb intake? Because it will have a detrimental affect on performance with no actual benefit.

How many carbohydrates can a person store on average?

What carbohydrates are you referring to for pre and post workouts?

How many carbohydrates are we talking about pre and post workouts?

How long of a workout and what loading parameters are being used for your desriptions?

Where did I say to completely get rid of carbs?

Why do people lose body fat when they take out a large portion of their carbohydrates?

I think you should answer these questions before going any further.
Youre arguing an extreme when Im arguing a medium.

I also think you should look at the same question here: What happens when your muscles and liver can no longer store any more carbs? This answer is my point. They are stored as body fat. So can you see why a LIMIT is a good idea? Or are you suggesting we can eat thousands of grams of carbs a day?

deeder
08-20-2007, 04:44 PM
How many carbohydrates can a person store on average?

What carbohydrates are you referring to for pre and post workouts?

How many carbohydrates are we talking about pre and post workouts?

How long of a workout and what loading parameters are being used for your desriptions?

Where did I say to completely get rid of carbs?

Why do people lose body fat when they take out a large portion of their carbohydrates?

Because they reduce their overall caloritic intake. Or maybe you're referring to the rapid weightloss that occurs right after cutting carbs. That's water weight they are shedding.

I think you should answer these questions before going any further.
Youre arguing an extreme when Im arguing a medium.

I also think you should look at the same question here: What happens when your muscles and liver can no longer store any more carbs? This answer is my point. They are stored as body fat. So can you see why a LIMIT is a good idea? Or are you suggesting we can eat thousands of grams of carbs a day?

I answered the only question that wasn't a repeat or simply ridiculous.

RichMcGuire
08-20-2007, 04:44 PM
What for? So you can feel like crap all day with no energy?



Ok, excess carbs will be stored as fat. Yes I agree... What will excess fats and proteins be stored as?

Just so we get this straight... In my question above, I'm talking about fats that you ingest, not fat stored in your body.



No need to try to belittle me. I think my results since joining this forum speak for themselves. I understand bulking and cutting and I understand basic nutritional concepts. Ie: If you eat above maintenance, you will store fat. Never burn fat. Regardless of what your macro-nutrient breakdown is throughout the day.



"What will excess fats and proteins be stored as?"

Ah here we go. This is the reason for the missunderstanding between both you and Trevor.

I agree excess calories can be stored as fat. But think Macros. Out of 3,000 calories, if you consumed MOST of them as carbohydrates, your body would not be able to store all of them, and as a result, youd store body fat. But lets say you had a macro range of 40% carbs, 30% protein, and 30% fat. Now your body has enough carbs to store in the muscles and liver but not so much that it has to store a majority as fat. See the medium? So if someone bulking is experiencing a larger fat gain than theyd like, they can lower calories from carbohydrates and see significant results.

Trevor M.
08-20-2007, 04:51 PM
How many carbohydrates can a person store on average?

What carbohydrates are you referring to for pre and post workouts?

How many carbohydrates are we talking about pre and post workouts?

How long of a workout and what loading parameters are being used for your desriptions?

Where did I say to completely get rid of carbs?

Why do people lose body fat when they take out a large portion of their carbohydrates?

I think you should answer these questions before going any further.
Youre arguing an extreme when Im arguing a medium.

I also think you should look at the same question here: What happens when your muscles and liver can no longer store any more carbs? This answer is my point. They are stored as body fat. So can you see why a LIMIT is a good idea? Or are you suggesting we can eat thousands of grams of carbs a day?

On average roughly 1,500-2,000 calories worth. The expiration date on that is pretty quick. And An hour of intense resistance training exercise can drastically deplete it.

Why do people loose weight when they cut out carbs? Because they are restricting their calorie intake. Aswell Water weight is quick to be lossed.

Proteins conversion to carbohydrates can be stored as glycogen as well. Which is quick to happen when carbohydrate intake is drastically lowered. As I already explained to some degree.

Anyway, I'll be back later. I have to be on my way now.

deeder
08-20-2007, 04:53 PM
"What will excess fats and proteins be stored as?"

Ah here we go. This is the reason for the missunderstanding between both you and Trevor.

I agree excess calories can be stored as fat. But think Macros. Out of 3,000 calories, if you consumed MOST of them as carbohydrates, your body would not be able to store all of them, and as a result, youd store body fat. But lets say you had a macro range of 40% carbs, 30% protein, and 30% fat. Now your body has enough carbs to store in the muscles and liver but not so much that it has to store a majority as fat. See the medium? So if someone bulking is experiencing a larger fat gain than theyd like, they can lower calories from carbohydrates and see significant results.

If I eat 3000 calories a day mostly from carbs and I'm 500 calories over maintenance. In a week I will have probably put on about a pound of fat (lets assume I don't workout).

If I eat 3000 calories a day with the distribution you suggested and I'm 500 calories over maintenance... In a week I will have probably put on about a pound of fat (lets assume I don't workout).

Regardless of what you eat, if you are eating above maintenance calories you are going to gain fat. I don't believe that macronutrient breakdown has any effect whatsoever on how fast you gain weight.

You don't seem to realize that fats and proteins are calories too. If you have 50g too many carbs or 50g too much protein, it's still gonna be stored as fat!

mickyjune26
08-20-2007, 04:57 PM
Is it possible that we are arguing, but not even the same points, of which, both are right?

Yes, we need excess calories to build muscle.
Yes, there are times of day when carbs may be eaten, to minimize fat gain.

Now the details I'll leave to the WBB articles:
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=177
then here
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=179
then here
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=185
and here
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=191
then here
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=270

(there are probably more that explain it in better detail)

pbal17
08-20-2007, 05:54 PM
wow...big arguement...but i just wanted to say that 5'11 170 is still gonna be really small. try and make a lifestyle out of this before you set a weight goal

mickyjune26
08-20-2007, 08:11 PM
wow...big arguement...but i just wanted to say that 5'11 170 is still gonna be really small. try and make a lifestyle out of this before you set a weight goal

Good call. It's taken me a while to make a lifestyle. Maybe go for smaller, more frequent weight gains, so you experience success on a more frequent basis? (this coming from someone who's next goal marker is in December).

:scratch:

Holto
08-20-2007, 08:20 PM
Rich I think I should point out that your body has tissues that run on carbs ALL DAY LONG. Organs like your brain, nervous sytem and gastro-intestinal tract are made up of millions of neurocytes that live on glucose.

I love your spirit bro but you have a lot to learn.

RichMcGuire
08-21-2007, 10:05 AM
Rich I think I should point out that your body has tissues that run on carbs ALL DAY LONG. Organs like your brain, nervous sytem and gastro-intestinal tract are made up of millions of neurocytes that live on glucose.

I love your spirit bro but you have a lot to learn.

"gastro-intestinal tract" doesnt sound so pleasant ;)

I agree we all have a lot to learn :) And I think I probably didnt make my point clear enough. I simply meant, you have a limit for any given macro. But thats why I believe a balanced macro can really pay off both in comfort and results. I would never give up carbohydrates completely, but I do feel there can be too many in the diet for some people. Thats why Atkins was so effective - but I dont think that extreme is healthy. But someone who snacks on sugar all day is probably going to store some unwanted body fat.

But its too big of an argument. And I know you know much more about it than I do. Theres hundreds of pieces literature on the effectiveness of carbs for both sides of the coin. And most of it is beyond my comprehension anyways ;)

RhodeHouse
08-21-2007, 01:06 PM
Way over-compicated! Since your eating habits suck, as you stated way back in the beginning, don't get too worried about how much of this and that you get. First worry about how often you eat in a day. Then worry about how many grams of protein you get in a day or in a week. From there, you can start to build around a bae that you'll create for yourself. These guys all have really graet advice, but I think what's being overlooked is the fact that you don't know how to eat, yet. At 155, you ain't getting fat. Maybe at 255 you will. You need calories to gain weight. If you train hard, you won't get fat. If it were that easy no one would ever gain any weight. Don't do step 4 when you haven't even done step 1 yet.

RichMcGuire
08-21-2007, 01:16 PM
Way over-compicated! Since your eating habits suck, as you stated way back in the beginning, don't get too worried about how much of this and that you get. First worry about how often you eat in a day. Then worry about how many grams of protein you get in a day or in a week. From there, you can start to build around a bae that you'll create for yourself. These guys all have really graet advice, but I think what's being overlooked is the fact that you don't know how to eat, yet. At 155, you ain't getting fat. Maybe at 255 you will. You need calories to gain weight. If you train hard, you won't get fat. If it were that easy no one would ever gain any weight. Don't do step 4 when you haven't even done step 1 yet.

Well, we were just debating silly things, true..But when you think about it, if 2,500 calories were what you needed to stay at the same weight, and you were to eat almost all of it from pure protein (if it were possible), youd burn more calories than if you had 2,500 calories of a more balanced macro. This is because 20% of each protein calorie is burned during digestion. Thermic effect on feeding accounts for about 10% of the total calories burned in a day. Its not always so black and white as many people like to think ;)

But youre completely right, dont go to step 4 before step 1 :)

Trevor M.
08-21-2007, 01:52 PM
Right, most science agrees on 20-25%. Just to ensure clarity for those paying attention. The thermic effect of protein represents 20-25% of "total" calories coming from protein that are consumed. Meaning if you ate 100 calories of pure protein. Only 70-80calories of that would actually "count", in a manner of speaking.

One thing I found interesting from a study not to long ago. Was, that the Thermic affect of food increased a good deal when moderate exercise followed a meal.