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View Full Version : Adding a 3rd squat/deadlift day?



deeder
08-21-2007, 01:38 PM
Hey everyone, I've been doing a 5 day routine for a few months now and I feel I could be progressing a little quicker in my squat and deadlift. The routine I've been doing is roughly as follows:

Monday: Speed Bench, Floor Press, Millitary Press, Neutral grip Pullups

Tuesday: Sumo deadlift, speed squats, biceps, abs

Wednesday: Leg Up Bench, Board Press, Lateral Raises, Rows

Friday: Squat, SL deadlift, biceps, abs

Saturday: Close Grip Bench, iso tricep movement, Rear Delt raises, Pullups

For my main exercise of each day (except the speed bench day) I've been doing 3 week mini-cycles where I'll work up to a new PR for sets of 3, 5, 8 and as of last week 10 reps on the last week.



I'm thinking of doing a seperate speed squat day. So my tuesday workout would become:

Sumo deadlift, front squat, biceps, abs

and I'd have another workout somewhere in there that would look like:

Speed squats, Light Glute ham raises or maybe GM's, isolation quad exercise, a little bit of hip work (stuff with bands, stretching, etc. just to stay healthy)

Ok, so first, I need opinion on whether or not you guys think adding a speed squat day would be a good idea and if I should change around what I'm doing that day.




Now, here's the layout I am thinking of:

Monday: Speed Bench
Tuesday: Deadlift
Wednesday: Off
Thursday: Speed Squat
Friday: Leg Up Bench
Saturday: Squat
Sunday: Close Grip Bench

I've been doing 5 days a week for quite some time and responding very well to it. I think I can handle another lower body day and would like to see what kind of results I could get from it. As you can tell, the volume of each workout is pretty low so I don't think I'll be over training.

Ok guys (and gals!), tear this apart.

TommyBoy
08-21-2007, 02:12 PM
I personally think you're trying to do too much......but that's me, I don't know your body.

Adam
08-21-2007, 02:13 PM
I'll just give you a short answer.
If you decide to add an extra Dynamic squat day just be sure to keep the volume / intensity low on that day at first, also you'll probly want to reduce the volume or intensity a bit on your other lower body days at first, until your body becomes accustomed.
In my own experience I upped myself to doing twice a day workouts, everyday. This took me months to get my work capacity up high enough and I had to ALWAYS keep an eye on the intensity to make sure I wasn't going to hard.
Overall you just have to be sure to balance everything at first. So if you are adding an extra day (like you want) just knock intensity down a knotch on the other days till you get used to it. Or if you want to up intensity just lower the volume a bit at first till your body is used to it.
I'll give ya this warning though. Before I started twice a day workouts my maintenance cals were ballpark 2500, after doing twice a days for a while I was getting shredded eating over 3100 cals!

deeder
08-21-2007, 04:28 PM
I personally think you're trying to do too much......but that's me, I don't know your body.

I thought I'd get at least one response like this... I'm doing fine on 5 days a week and I feel like I could be doing more lower body work. Maybe it has something to do with benching more often than I squat.


I'll just give you a short answer.
If you decide to add an extra Dynamic squat day just be sure to keep the volume / intensity low on that day at first, also you'll probly want to reduce the volume or intensity a bit on your other lower body days at first, until your body becomes accustomed.
In my own experience I upped myself to doing twice a day workouts, everyday. This took me months to get my work capacity up high enough and I had to ALWAYS keep an eye on the intensity to make sure I wasn't going to hard.
Overall you just have to be sure to balance everything at first. So if you are adding an extra day (like you want) just knock intensity down a knotch on the other days till you get used to it. Or if you want to up intensity just lower the volume a bit at first till your body is used to it.
I'll give ya this warning though. Before I started twice a day workouts my maintenance cals were ballpark 2500, after doing twice a days for a while I was getting shredded eating over 3100 cals!

Thanks for the advice Adam. Everything you said made sense. If my weight starts dropping I'll up the calories a bit.

The added day will be very light at first. Especially the accesory stuff I have planned.

TommyBoy
08-21-2007, 04:35 PM
I thought I'd get at least one response like this... I'm doing fine on 5 days a week and I feel like I could be doing more lower body work. Maybe it has something to do with benching more often than I squat.
If you're gonna do this anyways....then why ask for opinions?

deeder
08-21-2007, 04:38 PM
If you're gonna do this anyways....then why ask for opinions?

I guess I was looking more for ideas on how to make it work. Some oly lifters squat 6+ times a week... Why can't I squat 3 times a week?

IZich
08-21-2007, 04:47 PM
What's your reasoning behind adding a speed squat day? In your own words, why would it be effective for you?

A possible alternative to consider is RE work instead of another DE day. That way, all 3 bases are covered for your squats.

deeder
08-21-2007, 04:52 PM
What's your reasoning behind adding a speed squat day? In your own words, why would it be effective for you?

A possible alternative to consider is RE work instead of another DE day. That way, all 3 bases are covered for your squats.

1. I'd like to have some front squats in my routine for a while.
2. Doing speed squats after my deadlift seems to bother my groin/hip flexors.

RE seems to be more like an ME day than DE. That'd mean I have 3 hard squat days a week. 2 heavy and 1 speed day is working really well for my bench so I'd like to try that for squats/deadlifts as well.

IZich
08-21-2007, 05:06 PM
1. I'd like to have some front squats in my routine for a while.
2. Doing speed squats after my deadlift seems to bother my groin/hip flexors.

RE seems to be more like an ME day than DE. That'd mean I have 3 hard squat days a week. 2 heavy and 1 speed day is working really well for my bench so I'd like to try that for squats/deadlifts as well.

Cool, glad you have your logic figured out. I would only then echo Adam's advice about intensity - having 4 heavy and 2 speed days total (assuming you're combining your squat/DLs together) could *potentially* be a bit much.

TommyBoy
08-21-2007, 05:48 PM
I guess I was looking more for ideas on how to make it work. Some oly lifters squat 6+ times a week... Why can't I squat 3 times a week?
Oh ok, I was under the impression that you wanted opinions on whether it was a good idea or not. I have no idea how to make it work.

What's your reasoning behind adding a speed squat day? In your own words, why would it be effective for you?
This is what I was wondering as well.


1. I'd like to have some front squats in my routine for a while.
2. Doing speed squats after my deadlift seems to bother my groin/hip flexors.

RE seems to be more like an ME day than DE. That'd mean I have 3 hard squat days a week. 2 heavy and 1 speed day is working really well for my bench so I'd like to try that for squats/deadlifts as well.
I'm not sure how much you have read on the westside template, but if you follow the westside template, you can do all these things you're mentioning. Front squats can be rotated as an ME exercise, and you can always replace a speed workout for a repetition workout. I personally think that by rotating everything, your body and CNS is required to adapt to something new all the time. If you keep everything the same, only spread out through 5-6 workouts per week, you'll get stale and your body/CNS will become accustomed to the same stuff.


having 4 heavy and 2 speed days total (assuming you're combining your squat/DLs together) could *potentially* be a bit much.
I agree. Ever thought of rotating speed with max effort?

RhodeHouse
08-21-2007, 08:12 PM
If you can squat 3 times per week, you're not working hard enough. End of story. The same goes for benching 3 times per week. I assume you're following the Westside plan. Follow it and don't change it. Don't re-invent the wheel.

Con
08-21-2007, 09:00 PM
If you can squat 3 times per week, you're not working hard enough. End of story. The same goes for benching 3 times per week. I assume you're following the Westside plan. Follow it and don't change it. Don't re-invent the wheel.


Then why is this program highly recommended? 5x5 (http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm)

Wouldnt volume and intensity play huge factors in how many times a week you can do something?

RhodeHouse
08-21-2007, 09:49 PM
I don't know why 5x5 is recommended. I know from experience that squatting and benching 3x a week is too much work. NONE of the best guys do it. That right there is reason enough. Get the work done in the 2 Squat/DL days and 2 Bench days.

I'm assuming he wants to train like a PLer. If not, there no reason at all to do speed work. Since I see speed work included, I can only assume.

My squat went from 775 to 955 when I stopped squatting 2x a week. My bench went from 465 to 620 when I stopped benching 2x per week. I'm back to 2x benching, but it's much different than it used to be. Westside works. Don't change it. It's that simple.

IZich
08-22-2007, 11:17 AM
I don't know why 5x5 is recommended. I know from experience that squatting and benching 3x a week is too much work. NONE of the best guys do it. That right there is reason enough. Get the work done in the 2 Squat/DL days and 2 Bench days.

I'm assuming he wants to train like a PLer. If not, there no reason at all to do speed work. Since I see speed work included, I can only assume.

My squat went from 775 to 955 when I stopped squatting 2x a week. My bench went from 465 to 620 when I stopped benching 2x per week. I'm back to 2x benching, but it's much different than it used to be. Westside works. Don't change it. It's that simple.

5x5 work is acceptable as accessory work to supplement your main lifts on the Westside template, am I correct?

RhodeHouse
08-22-2007, 12:14 PM
I really don't know that much about 5x5. I have followed Westside and Metal Miltia templates. I'm sure you could supplement with it, but I don't know enough about it. Westside works. Why reinvent the wheel? JMO

Isaac Wilkins
08-22-2007, 05:05 PM
Keep in mind the intensity factor. Mad Cow does a good job outlining several 5x5 programs. The versions that squat 3x/week do not squat at 100% all three times.

A common version is:

Monday: Work up to a 5RM
Wednesday: Front Squats 2-3x8
Friday: 5x5 with x% of Day 1 (usually somewhere around 80%)

These are a lot less neurologically taxing than a traditional WSB program where you work up to 90% or above of your 1RM on one day and then have another day of 100+ % neurological stimulation. I'm sure Rhodes will agree that a DE done right can be a lot more taxing than a ME Day.

It'll depend on your goals. If one has a great work capacity, then one could probably do 1 ME day, a DE day, and another day of some repetition sets (extremely short of failure) in the 50-70% range. Other than form work, some more work capacity, caloric expenditure, and *maybe* some hypertrophy there's not a lot of point. If one is in need of those things, cool.

Also remember that we're talking about a couple of different levels of athlete here. Deeder's 1RM is a lot less scary to his system than Rhodes. If Rhodes hits a full competition 1RM then he's probably shot for a couple of weeks, right? He DEFINITELY isn't hammering at that level for three, four, five weeks in a row. Deeder can probably hit a max every week for a month or two, depending on what else he's doing, before he really shuts down.

Edit: Also keep in mind that a 5RM is a whole lot different than a 1RM on recovery for most people, especially as they advance.

TommyBoy
08-22-2007, 05:53 PM
If you can squat 3 times per week, you're not working hard enough. End of story. The same goes for benching 3 times per week. I assume you're following the Westside plan. Follow it and don't change it. Don't re-invent the wheel.

Westside works. Don't change it. It's that simple.
Very well said.

deeder
08-22-2007, 07:49 PM
Wow... Well, I can't argue with most of the replies... You guys are the gurus in this section. Borris did a pretty good job of explaining my point of view.

I'm not following a Westside template. I'm doing speed work and doing the same kind of accessory work.

Ok, I'm gonna stick with what I've been doing. I've seen some great results so far. The guys I lift with don't really do anything like Westside so it's pretty tough for me to look in that direction... You've gotta admit... Without someone to guide you, Westside can be pretty overwhelming..

TommyBoy
08-22-2007, 07:52 PM
You've gotta admit... Without someone to guide you, Westside can be pretty overwhelming..
I disagree. I didn't even know how to train properly, then I read Louie's articles and taught myself. Since then, I've recruited 2 more lifters who train with me, and I've taught them everything I learned myself. One of them is stronger than me now.

deeder
08-22-2007, 08:01 PM
I disagree. I didn't even know how to train properly, then I read Louie's articles and taught myself. Since then, I've recruited 2 more lifters who train with me, and I've taught them everything I learned myself. One of them is stronger than me now.

I've read most of the articles on the website but there seems to be a lot of conflicting or just confusing stuff... Maybe you're just smarter then me :whazzup:

I've heard a lot of people say that Westside is better suited to people who lift in multi-ply federations. Of the CPU lifters that I know, none of them follow Westside based programs. I don't know what it's like for the rest of the world... The russians pretty much dominate in the IPF and they've got their crazy high volume/frequency training...

TommyBoy
08-22-2007, 08:19 PM
I've read most of the articles on the website but there seems to be a lot of conflicting or just confusing stuff
You have to understand that westside is a template; not a set routine. There is a basic outline, and lot's of stuff can be added or removed. It's also about what feels most comfortable to you and your body.


I've heard a lot of people say that Westside is better suited to people who lift in multi-ply federations. Of the CPU lifters that I know, none of them follow Westside based programs. I don't know what it's like for the rest of the world... The russians pretty much dominate in the IPF and they've got their crazy high volume/frequency training.
I think you might be generalizing here. I know plenty of IPF lifters that have had success using the westside template.

Adam
08-22-2007, 08:23 PM
Yeah, the articles are a bit conflicting, you have to watch the published dates on them to know whats current.
Overall though, Westside is just a basic template, ME days, DE days, train the posterior, train the triceps.
As you've said, not many people in the CPU train Westside. The training is better suited to equiped lifters, like train the tri's, but the Westside principles can be tailored to whatever goals you have.

Adam
08-22-2007, 08:25 PM
Raced me to it Tommy

deeder
08-22-2007, 09:16 PM
You have to understand that westside is a template; not a set routine. There is a basic outline, and lot's of stuff can be added or removed. It's also about what feels most comfortable to you and your body.

I think that's what's so overwhelming for me. I understand the basic concepts but I guess I don't really know how to make it work for me.



I think you might be generalizing here. I know plenty of IPF lifters that have had success using the westside template.

Yeah I was definitely generalizing. I can't claim to know how all IPF lifters train.

TommyBoy
08-22-2007, 09:27 PM
I think that's what's so overwhelming for me. I understand the basic concepts but I guess I don't really know how to make it work for me.
There's only one way to find out: try it. Start with the bare bones and add/remove exercises at your will.

RhodeHouse
08-23-2007, 11:48 AM
Deeder - Why are you doing speed work? I may have missed it. Speed work really has only a powerlifting application. It doesn't promote muscle growth. Are you a PLer or a BBer type? If you're not Pling, use the repetition method to build size and strength.

Westside is very simple:
Max Effort
Dynamic Effort
Repetion Method

That's it. You have to do shoulders, back and triceps on Bench days. And, you have to work the quads, hamstrings, low back, and abs on Squat Day. 1 exercise for each muscle group. That's it.

Max Effort Day=Heavy then bodybuild
Dynamic Effort=Fast then bodybuild

deeder
08-23-2007, 08:12 PM
Deeder - Why are you doing speed work? I may have missed it. Speed work really has only a powerlifting application. It doesn't promote muscle growth. Are you a PLer or a BBer type? If you're not Pling, use the repetition method to build size and strength.

Westside is very simple:
Max Effort
Dynamic Effort
Repetion Method

That's it. You have to do shoulders, back and triceps on Bench days. And, you have to work the quads, hamstrings, low back, and abs on Squat Day. 1 exercise for each muscle group. That's it.

Max Effort Day=Heavy then bodybuild
Dynamic Effort=Fast then bodybuild

Yup, I'm a powerlifter.

I might try Westside eventually... I'll keep reading I guess.

minotaur70
08-23-2007, 09:21 PM
If you can squat 3 times per week, you're not working hard enough. End of story. The same goes for benching 3 times per week. I assume you're following the Westside plan. Follow it and don't change it. Don't re-invent the wheel.

totally agree- if you feel like you can lift more, lift more in the scheduled sessions, don't add sessions. I do a 2 week load, one delaod and by the time I am heading into the end of week 2 I am beat up.