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RCASEYH
08-27-2007, 01:36 PM
I am presently attempting a 'relatively' clean bulk (okay, with the exception of a LOT of Crystal Lite and diet soda -- can't resist Mountain Dew). I don't eat any fast food, sugars and other assorted "crap" ... not that there is anything wrong with that ;) ... so, all foods are healthy, plenty of complex carbs, veggies/fruit, protein, fats, hitting the right amount of fiber, gallons of water, yadda, yadda, yadda.

My question is for anyone who has experienced this while doing a bulk. You are eating above maintenance, taking in lots of food and still find yourself STARVING? And by starving, I mean ... nothing you eat is making you feel sated and you are literally counting the minutes until you are scheduled to eat again. I've already experienced a few days like this where I end up eating another 2-4K+ calories above what I am taking in on the bulk. (And doing it all cleanly with just massive amounts of food.)

So ... what to do?
A) Go with the flow and eat the huge amounts whenever it hits you?
B) Bump up your daily caloric intake even higher to avoid these 'binges'?
C) Say to yourself ... F*** it, I'm on a bulk and bring a lawn chair, microwave, and a REALLY long extension cord to the nearest supermarket and chow down until they throw you out? :)

Rodzilla
08-27-2007, 02:00 PM
Everyday is like this. If i didnt control and watch what i ate my grocery bills would be through the roof, and the local restaurants and drive throughs would know me by first name.

First off, when i am clean bulking i try to eat every 2-3 hours. If your so hungry that every 2-3 hours isnt enough then wow, lol. I can usually tell you when it has been more than 2-3 hours and i eat right away.

Make sure you know what you eat. track it, fitday.com and you should be fine.

Con
08-27-2007, 02:15 PM
Self control.

Learn good habits.

Possibly look to descrease your meal frequency and/or eat more during the time of the day when you are actually hungry, and less when you are not.

RCASEYH
08-27-2007, 02:21 PM
Everyday is like this. If i didnt control and watch what i ate my grocery bills would be through the roof, and the local restaurants and drive throughs would know me by first name.

First off, when i am clean bulking i try to eat every 2-3 hours. If your so hungry that every 2-3 hours isnt enough then wow, lol. I can usually tell you when it has been more than 2-3 hours and i eat right away.

Make sure you know what you eat. track it, fitday.com and you should be fine.

Nice to know someone shares my pain! LOL

Waiting every 2-3 hrs. is like AGONY at times. I would love to eat every 1 - 1.5 hrs if I could.

Here's an example of what happens. I was already at 3200 cal for the day and doing my last meal before bed (my usual nighttime cottage cheese, almonds, whey protein "thing") when it hit me. :burger: I started off with a massive salad and 8 oz of grilled chicken and almost a 1/2 gallon of water. Waited 45 min and still felt ravenous. So, I figured screw it and ended up scarfing down 5 peanut butter sandwiches (at least it was whole grain bread, and no jelly), an apple, and a pound of cottage cheese before I finally forced myself to go to bed. It was already 1AM so I figured I had better stop eating so I can be relatively awake at the gym at 8AM. ;)

Re: tracking on FitDay ... I've been doing that for almost the past year -- I think it was even before I found this site, actually. Makes me laugh (and wanna scream) when I see the numbers jump from where it should be for the day (3500 cal) to 5500+ as a result of this last 'small' meal (binge) of the day. LOL

RCASEYH
08-27-2007, 02:29 PM
Self control.

Learn good habits.

Possibly look to descrease your meal frequency and/or eat more during the time of the day when you are actually hungry, and less when you are not.

Thanks.

As far as meal frequency/eating more when 'hungry', that is a moot point as I am ALWAYS hungry and I cannot possibly eat more frequently than I do already.

If it were only as simple as "self control" and "learning good habits" there would be no need for my original question.

I must ask ... what "good habits" should I be striving to learn?

Unreal
08-27-2007, 02:50 PM
Try cutting back on carbs and upping your fats and proteins. Carbs make me want to eat. Once I start I can't stop.

Con
08-27-2007, 02:53 PM
Thanks.

As far as meal frequency/eating more when 'hungry', that is a moot point as I am ALWAYS hungry and I cannot possibly eat more frequently than I do already.

Really doubt you are always hungry but simply thinking about food most of the time. Accomplish other things and realize your diet isnt the MOST important thing in thr world.

And when I said decrease meal frequency, that means have less meals, obviously with more calories. You may just feel satisfied.




I must ask ... what "good habits" should I be striving to learn?

Learn your body. Learn which foods actually have an impact on hunger/appetite, whether it be negative or posivitve. Be realistic with yourself. If you are a big eater, then dont try to eat 7-8 time a day, and just make sure you get your cals in.

RCASEYH
08-27-2007, 03:16 PM
Try cutting back on carbs and upping your fats and proteins. Carbs make me want to eat. Once I start I can't stop.

Thanks. Believe it or not, I am doing that now. (My protein and fats are very high and the carbs even lower than they were already.) I recently had a little "chat" with Built about this actually. Thus far, it's not helping much, but I'll keep at it. :)

I think part of it is my backstory about losing a massive amount of weight due to illness and now my system is completely out of wack. (I talk about it in the new member intro section.) It might just take a while for things to stabilize.

Thanks again.

RCASEYH
08-27-2007, 03:18 PM
Really doubt you are always hungry but simply thinking about food most of the time. Accomplish other things and realize your diet isnt the MOST important thing in thr world.

Learn your body. Learn which foods actually have an impact on hunger/appetite, whether it be negative or posivitve. Be realistic with yourself. If you are a big eater, then dont try to eat 7-8 time a day, and just make sure you get your cals in.


Thanks, Con. I've done it for years. (Read my new member intro if you want a backstory on this.) I had a recent massive weight loss due to illness and that is coupled with a digestive disorder for over 20 years.

And, I beg to differ with u ... yes, I am ALWAYS hungry. :)
Thanks again for the input.

Stumprrp
08-27-2007, 03:43 PM
im with you man, ill eat and im hungry 1 hour later, i just have larger meals.

RhodeHouse
08-27-2007, 05:47 PM
You're trying to gain weight, right? Then eat whenever you want. If it's every 15 minutes, who cares? Your goal is to put on some muscle. IMO, if you're eating 7-8 times a day and you still want to eat, you're not eating enough. I know what you're gonna say. "I'm always hungry." In my weight gain experience, if you get hungry - EVER - you're not eating enough. Most will probably disagree with me, but gaining weight is the worst part of my training. I hate the fact that I'm moving into the SHW class for my next meet. You need to do some good, old-fashioned Max Effort eating. When you're full, keep eating. When you start to gag (if you eat right, it will happen) then try to shovel down 1-4 more forkfuls. Rest 5 and repeat until all the food is gone.

RCASEYH
08-27-2007, 10:18 PM
Hey Stumprrp & RhodeHouse -- thanks for the feedback. I just wasn't too sure if it was a matter of just bumping up the overall calories on a daily basis and seeing if that hits it and eliminates the 'starvation' feeling.
Oh well, I guess it isn't really considered a 'clean' bulk anymore even when you're eating 'healthy' and it puts you way over your set limit for the day, huh? LOL. Ah, who cares ... I'm bulking anyway, so I suppose the answer is to just eat. :)

Herandi
08-28-2007, 04:50 AM
Try cutting back on carbs and upping your fats and proteins. Carbs make me want to eat. Once I start I can't stop.

yep. same for me too.

Fuzzy
08-28-2007, 05:06 AM
At one point when I was 185lbs and relatively lean, trying to be a powerlifter and national junior rowe I was eating some rodicilous food.

Im talking in excess of dozen eggs, 1 or 2 whole roast chickens, a pound of tuna, and 2 pounds of steak. on top of constantly drinking milk. Not to mention the massive amount of veggies I eat with everything.

I have no pretty much halved my old intake and am trying to regulate portions and eat alot more reguarly, basically I dont want to be hungry.

Con
08-28-2007, 08:47 AM
You're trying to gain weight, right? Then eat whenever you want. If it's every 15 minutes, who cares? Your goal is to put on some muscle.

Theres only but so much muscle that can be created.


IMO, if you're eating 7-8 times a day and you still want to eat, you're not eating enough.

I could EASILY stuff my face with 7000+ calories if I went by that logic, especially if it was more calorie dense foods. Is the extra 4000 calories A DAY going to help me put on more muscle than a 10-15% increase?


When you're full, keep eating. When you start to gag (if you eat right, it will happen) then try to shovel down 1-4 more forkfuls. Rest 5 and repeat until all the food is gone.

Sounds like a binge eating disorder to me.


RCASEYH - I wish you luck, but I doubt I can get through to you.

RCASEYH
08-28-2007, 10:10 AM
Theres only but so much muscle that can be created.



I could EASILY stuff my face with 7000+ calories if I went by that logic, especially if it was more calorie dense foods. Is the extra 4000 calories A DAY going to help me put on more muscle than a 10-15% increase?



Sounds like a binge eating disorder to me.


RCASEYH - I wish you luck, but I doubt I can get through to you.


Thank you, Con for your continued "sage" advice.
I skimmed your journals and various postings on this site and what I think you may not realize is everyone has very different starting places. Perhaps your training / dietary approach works for you and that's all well and good, but there are no universal styles which will work for everyone.
In case you missed my new member/intro, our situations are very different and there are QUITE a few years separating our ages (not that age necessarily makes a difference) but perhaps you may want to consider that other people's life experiences are necessary components in the overall equation. The feedback you are offering doesn't necessarily apply across the board. Unfortunately, not everyone's experiences are identical, ours certainly have NOT been, so my original questions were directed at people who have been in or are currently in the same boat -- or at least one that is vaguely similar in some way.
In conclusion, I just want to thank you so much for taking the time to voice your opinions and know that your comments and musings have been duly noted.

RhodeHouse
08-28-2007, 12:47 PM
Con - you ALWAYS disagree with me. I guess I just don't know what I'm talking about. I have no idea how I went from 185 to 304 keeping my bodyfat around 15%. Clearly, I just don't know what I'm talking about.

You love to disagree with my opinions. That's cool. I'm big. And you...

As I reread some of your quotes. You say you could easily eat 7000 calories a day. Really? Do it everyday for 2 months. I can eat 10000 calories in a day. But there's no way I can do it everyday. It doesn't matter how much you eat in one day. It matter how much you eat for the week and the month. When you get to 300 lbs then you can argue with me about eating disorders and gaining weight. Until then, go lift and eat something.

Really good talk

IZich
08-28-2007, 01:12 PM
Con - you ALWAYS disagree with me. I guess I just don't know what I'm talking about. I have no idea how I went from 185 to 304 keeping my bodyfat around 15%. Clearly, I just don't know what I'm talking about.

You love to disagree with my opinions. That's cool. I'm big. And you...

As I reread some of your quotes. You say you could easily eat 7000 calories a day. Really? Do it everyday for 2 months. I can eat 10000 calories in a day. But there's no way I can do it everyday. It doesn't matter how much you eat in one day. It matter how much you eat for the week and the month. When you get to 300 lbs then you can argue with me about eating disorders and gaining weight. Until then, go lift and eat something.

Really good talk

Con, you're a smart guy. You know a lot of science and a lot about nutrition, and I respect the knowledge you have. However, I think there may be a disconnect between literature knowledge and experience - and that's where you guys are butting heads. Rhodes may not know the PhD level nutrition (but he may - I'm just putting it out there), but his experience from years of training and eating have given him way more solid of a philosophy than reading thousands of pages ever would.

To the OP: I'd say at your situation of trying to gain mass, eat as much as you can. Stuff your face. At your height/weight, I don't believe you have any reason to hold back and you won't have to worry about growing some fat overnight. The day you look in the mirror and decide you're gaining too much fat, maybe it's time to limit yourself a bit. For now, though, enjoy your food and eat everything your eyes can see. I've never tried Rhodes' ME eating style - that's way too hardcore for me! You can try it though.

IZich
08-28-2007, 01:16 PM
To the OP: I'd say at your situation of trying to gain mass, eat as much as you can. Stuff your face. At your height/weight, I don't believe you have any reason to hold back and you won't have to worry about growing some fat overnight. The day you look in the mirror and decide you're gaining too much fat, maybe it's time to limit yourself a bit. For now, though, enjoy your food and eat everything your eyes can see. I've never tried Rhodes' ME eating style - that's way too hardcore for me! You can try it though.

Oops, I made some assumptions about your height and weight. For some reason I thought I read somewhere up there that you were 6'+ and around 200. Never mind. My point about eating a lot until you feel you are gaining too fast still applies though.

One other thing I'd like to mention - from a psychological standpoint, bulks are NOT supposed to feel limiting. They're supposed to be freeing with the amount you can eat and - dare I say it? - almost binging. Cuts are where the pain of limiting your food intake comes in. So from that angle, if you feel like you're bulking (a.k.a. eating > your maintenance cals) while feeling starved, eat more! :thumbup:

RCASEYH
08-28-2007, 01:34 PM
Oops, I made some assumptions about your height and weight. For some reason I thought I read somewhere up there that you were 6'+ and around 200. Never mind. My point about eating a lot until you feel you are gaining too fast still applies though.

One other thing I'd like to mention - from a psychological standpoint, bulks are NOT supposed to feel limiting. They're supposed to be freeing with the amount you can eat and - dare I say it? - almost binging. Cuts are where the pain of limiting your food intake comes in. So from that angle, if you feel like you're bulking (a.k.a. eating > your maintenance cals) while feeling starved, eat more! :thumbup:


Love the postings. :) I concur wholeheartedly with what you said in both! Thanks, IZich!

sharkall2003
08-28-2007, 02:03 PM
Theres only but so much muscle that can be created.



I could EASILY stuff my face with 7000+ calories if I went by that logic, especially if it was more calorie dense foods. Is the extra 4000 calories A DAY going to help me put on more muscle than a 10-15% increase?



Sounds like a binge eating disorder to me.


RCASEYH - I wish you luck, but I doubt I can get through to you.

So do you think eating 500 over maintenance for just over a year would have made almost every lift of mine go up by over 100 lbs in the big three, I would have gained over 20 lbs of muscle and I would still be sub 15% bodyfat? I'm going to agree with Rhodes. My goal was to add mass. I added 40 lbs in a year, I cut half of it off and now I am as lean as I was before. Heh, go figure. You have to eat big to get big.

RhodeHouse
08-28-2007, 02:24 PM
I will ruin all you guys!:thumbup: I've brainwashed you into believing that I know what I'm talking about. HAHAHAHAHA!

Just kidding. That was ghey. Shark - you're right dude. Gotta eat big to get big. 40lbs in a year is awesome. That's a whole lot of eating.

Izich - you are correct in your assumptions that I don't know the PhD of eating. A lot of common sense and listening to those who have come before me.

Off to ME Eat - I'm gaining now, too. 12lbs in 10 days, so far. About 20 more to go.

Sensei
08-28-2007, 02:51 PM
You're trying to gain weight, right? Then eat whenever you want. If it's every 15 minutes, who cares? Your goal is to put on some muscle. IMO, if you're eating 7-8 times a day and you still want to eat, you're not eating enough. I know what you're gonna say. "I'm always hungry." In my weight gain experience, if you get hungry - EVER - you're not eating enough. Most will probably disagree with me, but gaining weight is the worst part of my training. I hate the fact that I'm moving into the SHW class for my next meet. You need to do some good, old-fashioned Max Effort eating. When you're full, keep eating. When you start to gag (if you eat right, it will happen) then try to shovel down 1-4 more forkfuls. Rest 5 and repeat until all the food is gone.Exactly. "The Big Boy's Menu Plan" all the way.

I gained about 50lbs in a year and after that I just didn't have the will to continue - but it definately worked.

RCASEYH
08-28-2007, 03:04 PM
Fuzzy/RhodeHouse/SharkAll/Sensei --
You guys are the best! My sincere thanks for your advice based on personal experience. :bow:
Now, those are exactly the responses I was hoping to get when I initially asked the question.
I really wasn't looking for 'theory' from people who haven't "walked the walk". ;)

Sensei
08-28-2007, 03:12 PM
I just always assume people have read this... http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=78823

Some people get it and some NEVER do...

Questor
08-28-2007, 03:44 PM
+1 for eating without cares. For being a little man I can pack it away.

A coworker accused me of "eating everything in sight". I don't even really know the guy. Apparently I have a rep.

RCASEYH
08-28-2007, 03:52 PM
I just always assume people have read this... http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=78823

Great link, thanks! Okay, it's not necessarily 100% nutritionally sound (with his mayo/dressing/condiment rant -- LOL) but I can definitely see where he is going with everything he said.

I've gotta admit, however, that the PB/Maple Syrup/Butter/Chocolate combo he describes DOES sound mighty interesting. Hmmm, maybe I ... nah. ;)
I wonder how many people on here have actually gone on to try that one? :scratch:


Some people get it and some NEVER do...
:clap:
Uh, yeah! Gross understatement.

sharkall2003
08-28-2007, 04:05 PM
Fuzzy/RhodeHouse/SharkAll/Sensei --
You guys are the best! My sincere thanks for your advice based on personal experience. :bow:
Now, those are exactly the responses I was hoping to get when I initially asked the question.
I really wasn't looking for 'theory' from people who haven't "walked the walk". ;)

No problem. Most of the people that say "eat 500" over maintenance usually aren't that big, and really aren't that lean either. Most of the guys pushing/pulling bigger weight don't say "oh, how many cals was that?" Pretty much what you have to do is eat your protein, workout hard, rest well and do some cardio for heart conditioning. I'm not super picky about what I eat, but I don't eat processed foods. Today I had 3/4 sirloin 93/7, 2 cans tuna, two protein shakes, banana and two waffles this morning. I've officially had all my carbs for today and I've had most all of my protein. I'm over 225 grams of protein, and less than 100 carbs. It's all how you manage your diet. My fats are a little high. Probably 50 so far and I haven't even had supper yet. Good luck with everything.

Also, you need to look at the people that are telling you to eat. It's most of the big guys on here who are stronger than average. To each their own.

If I'm not mistaken Con has some tree trunk legs, with a tiny upper body. I think he had to do a major recomposition too. So, he does have something to add, but if you're tryign to get big, listen to the guys that were small and had to get there.

sharkall2003
08-28-2007, 04:15 PM
One thing I will say is taht when you eat healthier foods it feels like they're digested much more smoothly. I was constantly hungry from the switch of my dirty bulk to my cut. But after cutting for 12 weeks or so I'm not really that hungry anymore. I know when I was dirty bulking I would get fried chicken strips at a restaurant and then get two sides of ranch with a couple large sodas and a dessert. That's what it took for me to gain weight. Do what you have to do to get where you gotta go!

RhodeHouse
08-28-2007, 04:35 PM
Do what you have to do to get where you gotta go![/QUOTE]


Words to live by. Sometimes you just gotta do it, regardless of the consequences. It won't kill you anyways.

RCASEYH
08-28-2007, 04:43 PM
One thing I will say is taht when you eat healthier foods it feels like they're digested much more smoothly.

I have a digestive disorder (Crohns), so I know what 'dirty' foods can do to my gut. I pretty much have to do things cleanly, but will just do MORE of it. ;)


Do what you have to do to get where you gotta go!
Yes, sir!! (As I sit here at my desk at work polishing off my before-dinner 'snack' of a pound of c.cheese, 2 PB sandwiches, 1.5 oz of almonds and a protein shake.)

Hey, didn't someone pretty much say to me that I "can't" be hungry all the time? Or maybe the calories I am taking in at each meal are too low?? Hmmm ... a puzzlement?!! LOL

Oh, and before any from the 'anti-eating' establishment tries to jump all over me for the amount of carbs I just took in with the protein and fats ... the bread was loaded with fiber, sprouted whole grain, ZERO sugar; natty PB - no sugar; low-fat/low-carb C.C. and washed everything down with almost 1/2 gallon of water (in addition to the zero carb protein shake). Yeah, I might not be exactly 'big' on the outside (yet), but the appetite always is!

IZich
08-28-2007, 05:49 PM
I have a digestive disorder (Crohns), so I know what 'dirty' foods can do to my gut. I pretty much have to do things cleanly, but will just do MORE of it. ;)


Yes, sir!! (As I sit here at my desk at work polishing off my before-dinner 'snack' of a pound of c.cheese, 2 PB sandwiches, 1.5 oz of almonds and a protein shake.)

Hey, didn't someone pretty much say to me that I "can't" be hungry all the time? Or maybe the calories I am taking in at each meal are too low?? Hmmm ... a puzzlement?!! LOL

Oh, and before any from the 'anti-eating' establishment tries to jump all over me for the amount of carbs I just took in with the protein and fats ... the bread was loaded with fiber, sprouted whole grain, ZERO sugar; natty PB - no sugar; low-fat/low-carb C.C. and washed everything down with almost 1/2 gallon of water (in addition to the zero carb protein shake). Yeah, I might not be exactly 'big' on the outside (yet), but the appetite always is!

Silence the critics in a few months by flexing. ;)

RCASEYH
08-28-2007, 06:36 PM
Silence the critics in a few months by flexing. ;)

:thumbup:

Con
08-28-2007, 10:39 PM
Con - you ALWAYS disagree with me. I guess I just don't know what I'm talking about. I have no idea how I went from 185 to 304 keeping my bodyfat around 15%. Clearly, I just don't know what I'm talking about.

Since when do I ALWAYS disagree with you?


You love to disagree with my opinions. That's cool. I'm big. And you...

Wow...talk about intelligent conversation.


As I reread some of your quotes. You say you could easily eat 7000 calories a day. Really? Do it everyday for 2 months. I can eat 10000 calories in a day. But there's no way I can do it everyday. It doesn't matter how much you eat in one day. It matter how much you eat for the week and the month. When you get to 300 lbs then you can argue with me about eating disorders and gaining weight. Until then, go lift and eat something.


Why in the hell would I want to do that? Why in the hell does eating TWICE my maintenance calories may any type of sense, for any type of training/goals?


So do you think eating 500 over maintenance for just over a year would have made almost every lift of mine go up by over 100 lbs in the big three, I would have gained over 20 lbs of muscle and I would still be sub 15% bodyfat? I'm going to agree with Rhodes. My goal was to add mass. I added 40 lbs in a year, I cut half of it off and now I am as lean as I was before. Heh, go figure. You have to eat big to get big.

There is always more than one way to reach your goals. But what does putting on extra fat help with anything besides leverage? I could only see powerlifters not caring, but I guess I was wrong.



Im not trying to sound like a know it all, becuase I know very litte, but IMO, some of this stuff is borderline common sense. Muscle looks, and I believe for the most part aids strength, better than fat. Why put on more than you have to?