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View Full Version : Insulin spike: more detail needed on a part of this process



mickyjune26
08-29-2007, 03:19 PM
hey,
Another dude, who can bench over 500, said that I should avoid post workout insulin spike.

Again, this is contrary to everything I've learned on this site.

What would occur if I did not have a post-workout shake with protein and dextrose, and instead ate a meal of complex carbs and chicken breasts.

RhodeHouse
08-29-2007, 05:01 PM
First of all, the dude is an idiot. And, second, it really doesn't matter all that much. Jim Wendler used to eat a pint of ice cream after he trained, never drankl a protein shake, and squatted 1000. In all honesty, just get some calories in you after you train. A shake is the easiest. I'm usually not hungry after training, so I need to get the calories in that way.

Lones Green
08-29-2007, 05:13 PM
First of all, the dude is an idiot. And, second, it really doesn't matter all that much. Jim Wendler used to eat a pint of ice cream after he trained, never drankl a protein shake, and squatted 1000. In all honesty, just get some calories in you after you train. A shake is the easiest. I'm usually not hungry after training, so I need to get the calories in that way.

a pint of ice cream after a workout, thats powerlifting.

Holto
08-29-2007, 05:16 PM
In all honesty, just get some calories in you after you train. A shake is the easiest. I'm usually not hungry after training, so I need to get the calories in that way.

Three very true statements.

Isaac Wilkins
08-29-2007, 05:42 PM
hey,
Another dude, who can bench over 500, said that I should avoid post workout insulin spike.

Again, this is contrary to everything I've learned on this site.

What would occur if I did not have a post-workout shake with protein and dextrose, and instead ate a meal of complex carbs and chicken breasts.

Ok, Rhodehouse is right.


Now, to directly address what you've said:

A) Rhodehouse is right, dude is an idiot.
A1) Here's why: Forget about the post-workout insulin spike to shuttle nutrients and yadda yadda. What are you trying to do? Get bigger? Get smaller? Get stronger? Run a 4:00 mile? Run a marathon? If the last one is you, go find another forum.

To say that you want to avoid said insulin spike without knowing what you're trying to accomplish is just as stupid, possibly more so, than saying that you always want an insulin spike post training.

B) Post workout one has heightened GLUT-4 capability regardless of the presense of insulin, so glucose transport will be much higher through the cellular membrane. This is particularly present in the case of a strong weight-training workout, especially a bodybuilding type program given the large amount of damage and substrate depletion. So, the insulin would translocate the GLUT-1's and further heighten this. For most goals, this would be great.

C) You'll still have an "insulin spike" with chicken breast and complex carbs, just not as substantial. Again, refer to your goals.

D) Gastric Emptying. What if you had a bunch of carbs at breakfast with some fiber and fat and then trained at noon? OH NOES! You've still got carbohydrate entering the blood stream! Insulin through every moment of your training! :eek:

E) For 95% of the lifters out there, probably closer to 99%, this means ****-all. Eat something before you train. Train hard. Train with a purpose. Eat something afterwards. You'll grow or improve.

bigmoney
08-29-2007, 06:08 PM
Very true words there Borris! I used to be so concerned with getting .485 g/lbm of dextrose 5-8 minutes after your 3rd to last set.

If you take away all the PWO shakes a BB'er/PL'er have ever had, how much strength/size do you think they would have lost or gained? Point being....just eat and train your ass off.

smalls
08-29-2007, 06:53 PM
Ok, Rhodehouse is right.


Now, to directly address what you've said:

A) Rhodehouse is right, dude is an idiot.
A1) Here's why: Forget about the post-workout insulin spike to shuttle nutrients and yadda yadda. What are you trying to do? Get bigger? Get smaller? Get stronger? Run a 4:00 mile? Run a marathon? If the last one is you, go find another forum.

To say that you want to avoid said insulin spike without knowing what you're trying to accomplish is just as stupid, possibly more so, than saying that you always want an insulin spike post training.

B) Post workout one has heightened GLUT-4 capability regardless of the presense of insulin, so glucose transport will be much higher through the cellular membrane. This is particularly present in the case of a strong weight-training workout, especially a bodybuilding type program given the large amount of damage and substrate depletion. So, the insulin would translocate the GLUT-1's and further heighten this. For most goals, this would be great.

C) You'll still have an "insulin spike" with chicken breast and complex carbs, just not as substantial. Again, refer to your goals.

D) Gastric Emptying. What if you had a bunch of carbs at breakfast with some fiber and fat and then trained at noon? OH NOES! You've still got carbohydrate entering the blood stream! Insulin through every moment of your training! :eek:

E) For 95% of the lifters out there, probably closer to 99%, this means ****-all. Eat something before you train. Train hard. Train with a purpose. Eat something afterwards. You'll grow or improve.


Awesome post.

mickyjune26
08-29-2007, 07:18 PM
Thanks a lot everyone. You're a great help.

So the general consensus is to just make sure to eat after a workout. If I ate a complex carb and meat right after, I'd still make gains, though maybe not as much, because my muscles are starving for a short period of time, until the carbs are absorbed into my system.

On a side note, I revisited an article that talked about this, to make sure I'm eating the right amounts of carbs/proteins in shake form during and after my workout.

http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=185

"If you add up the basic suggestions from the Energy Phase and the Anabolic Phase, youíll find that Iíve recommended about 1.6g of carbohydrate/kg and 0.8g of protein/kg in total. For a 220lb guy, thatís a total of 160g carbohydrate and 80g of protein during and immediately after training. Based on your preconceived notions of what constitutes "a lot" of carbs, this may seem like a lot or not much at all."

(...keep in mind that those carbs and proteins are consumed over a 2-3 hour period)

On a sidenote, I'm making sure to not get caught up on all the details. I'll keep eating...and I'll keep lifting. High intensity cardio is tomorrow. DE Squat day is this Friday.

Unreal
08-30-2007, 08:06 AM
I've never supplemented with dextrose. My post work out meal is normally 1/2 cup of oats with a scoop of nitrean. Works good for me, and it is filling. When I go to bulk up maybe I will change that.

mickyjune26
08-30-2007, 08:57 AM
I should probably specify that I also have a post-workout meal 90 minutes after I'm done lifting.

I wonder what the average % performance increase (measured either in size or strength) is when the directions in the article are followed?

Based on a lot of people's feedback here, I'd be surprised if it was more than 10% gain in size or strength that would not have happened if one did not drink any shakes during the workout and just had solid foods postworkout.

RhodeHouse
08-30-2007, 10:55 AM
a pint of ice cream after a workout, thats powerlifting.

My point is, it really doesn't matter all that much. Unless you're in a cutting phase, just eat after you train. BB or PL is all the same. Feed your starving body.

Holto
08-30-2007, 11:19 AM
Based on a lot of people's feedback here, I'd be surprised if it was more than 10% gain in size or strength that would not have happened if one did not drink any shakes during the workout and just had solid foods postworkout.

Many here believe there would be no difference at all. There is zero clinical data to support the need for a PWO shake. Eating PWO is a no brainer but there is nothing to indicate it has to be 50/50 dex/malto+whey.

Are the bodybuilders today bigger than the bodybuilders of the 60's? I doubt it. The pro's are but that has little to do with nutrition.

Trevor M.
08-30-2007, 03:08 PM
Many here believe there would be no difference at all. There is zero clinical data to support the need for a PWO shake. Eating PWO is a no brainer but there is nothing to indicate it has to be 50/50 dex/malto+whey.

I disagree, Its well known that insulin helps facilitate certain enzymatic reactions which increase protein synthesis. By supplementing with CHO-PRO solution following exercise (while/after Catecholamines is reducing) one can encourage this enzamitic process to "kick start" if you will. Besides, specific glycogen forming enzymes are more active following intense exercise. Along with this and other things I haven't mentioned. It goes to show the "window of supplementation" is a benefitial one.

Does that mean everyone should and would benefit from post exercise supp? No, the average gym rat likely has no need to supplement.

Here is just two of many studies done on post exercise supplementation...

We conclude that essential amino acids with carbohydrates stimulate muscle protein anabolism by increasing muscle protein synthesis when ingested 1 or 3 h after resistance exercise.

muscle protein synthesis were significantly increased above the predrink and corresponding placebo
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/88/2/386


Conclusions: These findings suggest that the availability of amino acids is more important than the availability of energy for postexercise repair and synthesis of muscle proteins.

SUPP+PRO increased plasma essential amino acids 33%, leg fractional extraction of phenylalanine 4-fold, leg uptake of glucose 3.5-fold, and leg and whole-body protein synthesis 6-fold and 15%, respectively.
http://www.acsm-msse.org/pt/re/msse/abstract.00005768-200205000-00016.htm;jsessionid=GXtH5lJ0tCwTkbKR6HSmtRCm2550Ft3rMlk7sxShBDyJ9s2mbvRS!-933386751!181195628!8091!-1[/B]



I also think it would be wise to mention the enormous number of studies that show "during" supplementation of Carbs-protein (particularly in endurance athletes) has undoubtedly been "backed" by science. As well there is a solid science backing pre exercise (cho-pro)feedings as-well. So why not post?

Built
08-30-2007, 03:19 PM
There's also the cortisol-blunting effect of insulin, which is more of a concern for those of us who limit carbs outside the so-called anabolic window/barn door.

Holto
08-30-2007, 05:28 PM
I disagree

I appreciate the post.

To my knowledge there is ZERO clinical data that compares a PWO shake to a solid food meal.

smalls
08-30-2007, 07:59 PM
I disagree, Its well known that insulin helps facilitate certain enzymatic reactions which increase protein synthesis. By supplementing with CHO-PRO solution following exercise (while/after Catecholamines is reducing) one can encourage this enzamitic process to "kick start" if you will. Besides, specific glycogen forming enzymes are more active following intense exercise. Along with this and other things I haven't mentioned. It goes to show the "window of supplementation" is a benefitial one.

Does that mean everyone should and would benefit from post exercise supp? No, the average gym rat likely has no need to supplement.

Here is just two of many studies done on post exercise supplementation...


http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/88/2/386



http://www.acsm-msse.org/pt/re/msse/abstract.00005768-200205000-00016.htm;jsessionid=GXtH5lJ0tCwTkbKR6HSmtRCm2550Ft3rMlk7sxShBDyJ9s2mbvRS!-933386751!181195628!8091!-1[/B]



I also think it would be wise to mention the enormous number of studies that show "during" supplementation of Carbs-protein (particularly in endurance athletes) has undoubtedly been "backed" by science. As well there is a solid science backing pre exercise (cho-pro)feedings as-well. So why not post?

Good post, valid points, except no one ever said dont eat after your workout. As holto already posted, we are all advocating the benefits of PWO nutrition, just not a specific macro breakdown, and not lame ass supplements. BTW, your PWO supps used in the studies wouldnt satisfy a fookin mouse and are horrible examples of how a bodybuilder should eat, regardless of increased amino acid uptake (for minimal amounts of time, since your dealing with tiny amounts of calories)


There are lots of studies that showing eating increasing protein synthesis, it's kinda how our bodies function.

mickyjune26
08-30-2007, 08:22 PM
so....just to recap, we still don't have a comparison of liquid vs solid PWO nutrition.

I'm enjoying reading this as I eat a big bowl of potatoes and sour cream. I'm gonna get fat on this bulk. I just know it. :rolleyes:

Thanks for all the input, so far.

mickyjune26
08-30-2007, 08:25 PM
on a different note, we do have confirmation that a simple carb that spikes the insulin is needed PWO. complex carbs with a low gi may take too long to break down and be absorbed during the 1-3 PWO window.

As I learn more and more, I'm becoming a fan of the KISS method. Keep it simple stupid.

smalls
08-30-2007, 10:42 PM
on a different note, we do have confirmation that a simple carb that spikes the insulin is needed PWO. complex carbs with a low gi may take too long to break down and be absorbed during the 1-3 PWO window.

As I learn more and more, I'm becoming a fan of the KISS method. Keep it simple stupid.

Well ask yourself this question. Do you really think your digestive system/bloodstream is free from carbs/amino acids by the time your done your workout. Have you ever thrown up and been able to see food you ate 5+ hours ago. Simple carbs are certainly not NEEDED, IMO. Lots of people use low GI carbs and have had great results. I usually have a shake and cereal or candy PWO because it satisfies my cravings and tastes good. I started doing this on my recent cut which was by far the most succesfull time period in my weightlifting career. Because my diet was spot on every day, not because I "optimized" my PWO window.

Your total diet is vastly more important than the difference between liquid and solid PWO meal.

DoUgL@S
08-31-2007, 10:39 AM
Well ask yourself this question. Do you really think your digestive system/bloodstream is free from carbs/amino acids by the time your done your workout. Have you ever thrown up and been able to see food you ate 5+ hours ago. Simple carbs are certainly not NEEDED, IMO. Lots of people use low GI carbs and have had great results. I usually have a shake and cereal or candy PWO because it satisfies my cravings and tastes good. I started doing this on my recent cut which was by far the most succesfull time period in my weightlifting career. Because my diet was spot on every day, not because I "optimized" my PWO window.

Your total diet is vastly more important than the difference between liquid and solid PWO meal.

Smalls is right for those who eat diet with moderate to higher carbs.

As has been discussed previously, those that use ketogenic type diets will benefit more from fast digesting carbs, well mostly because there are little to none in the bloodstream from previous meals.

mickyjune26
08-31-2007, 11:11 AM
Good point, so the carbs you take right after the workout will benefit you differently, depending on what your diet has been since the start of the day.

If you have been minimizing carb intake (such as many people do during a cut), then simple carbs PWO will be very beneficial. On the other hand, if your body has been getting carbs the whole day, low-GI complex carbs may be appropriate.

So once again, in relation to simple carbs vs. complex carbs PWO, then gains for one method vs. another are not that significant.

so, to try to conclude this thread...

For the majority of us out there, just workout and eat some carbs and protein PWO, in whatever form you are most comfortable with. For me, it is a shake plus a full meal.

For the few who have about "peaked" in their performance, they may need to be a little more particular with PWO nutrition, as it may give them that extra edge.

Now i'm going to finish my eggs and get ready for my next meal. Veggies, olive oil, and a can of tuna. mmmmmmm.....

Jordanbcool
08-31-2007, 01:06 PM
so....just to recap, we still don't have a comparison of liquid vs solid PWO nutrition.

I'm enjoying reading this as I eat a big bowl of potatoes and sour cream. I'm gonna get fat on this bulk. I just know it. :rolleyes:

Thanks for all the input, so far.

No because its not that big of a deal. You're overthinking it IMO. A solid and or a liquid meal are both pretty much on the same scale as far as nutrients/nutrition goes. The PWO drink may get the nutrients where the need to go faster (for obvious digestive reasons). But aside from that its not going to make a big deal. I used to be meticulous with my PWO shakes. Now I usually just drink some milk and make myself a nice plate of balanced foods (protein carbs etc.).

Jordanbcool
08-31-2007, 01:08 PM
Good point, so the carbs you take right after the workout will benefit you differently, depending on what your diet has been since the start of the day.

If you have been minimizing carb intake (such as many people do during a cut), then simple carbs PWO will be very beneficial. On the other hand, if your body has been getting carbs the whole day, low-GI complex carbs may be appropriate.

So once again, in relation to simple carbs vs. complex carbs PWO, then gains for one method vs. another are not that significant.

so, to try to conclude this thread...

For the majority of us out there, just workout and eat some carbs and protein PWO, in whatever form you are most comfortable with. For me, it is a shake plus a full meal.

For the few who have about "peaked" in their performance, they may need to be a little more particular with PWO nutrition, as it may give them that extra edge.

Now i'm going to finish my eggs and get ready for my next meal. Veggies, olive oil, and a can of tuna. mmmmmmm.....

Good. This is a good post/conclusion. Just make sure you eat/drink something after your workout. But I wouldn't advocate drinking shakes over having solid meals. Its mostly about personal preference.

mickyjune26
08-31-2007, 09:39 PM
Dude, I was really close putting Unholy's statement in my sig. It was a classic, lol.

Jordanbcool
08-31-2007, 11:09 PM
Yes. He said what we all are thinking but don't have the courage to say :D