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porto_6
09-06-2007, 05:05 PM
Went to see my docotr today for a annual check-up. He noticed that in the last year i've stacked on the pounds (bulking :)). When he asked me what my macros were I told him and he responded : "Theres too much fat and protein in your diet. You should consume 70% carbs, 20% protein and 10% fat." What you guys think about that?

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
09-06-2007, 05:09 PM
I've never heard anyone say 70% carbs ever...anywhere...in any book...or article I've ever read.

Built
09-06-2007, 05:45 PM
Ornish.

Anthony
09-06-2007, 05:48 PM
Out of his entire university education, he spent about 2 weeks on nutrition.

And it shows.

Built
09-06-2007, 05:51 PM
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=diet&dbid=5

"Dr. Ornish's dietary recommendations are as follows:

Consume 10% of calories as fat, with a ratio of polyunsaturated fat to saturated fat that is greater than 1
Consume 70-75% of calories as complex carbohydrates and 15-20% of calories as protein "

RhodeHouse
09-06-2007, 05:59 PM
Does your Dr lift weights? Probably not. He is a Dr, but has no idea what he's talking about. George Hackenschmidt (creator of the Hack Squat Machine) said the same thing 100 years ago. If you don't do it, shut the F#$K up because you have no idea.

markdk86
09-06-2007, 09:07 PM
This is why I go to a doctor that used to do steroids the correct way and competed in body building. Dr. Smith for the win!

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
09-06-2007, 09:14 PM
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=diet&dbid=5

"Dr. Ornish's dietary recommendations are as follows:

Consume 10% of calories as fat, with a ratio of polyunsaturated fat to saturated fat that is greater than 1
Consume 70-75% of calories as complex carbohydrates and 15-20% of calories as protein "

Same page:


Nutrient Excesses/Deficiencies

The Ornish Diet may be deficient in calcium, iron, vitamin B12, and essential fatty acids. Dr. Ornish recommends supplementation with these nutrients. Or you could achieve that by upping your macros in less ridiculous proportions. :thumbup:

smalls
09-07-2007, 12:35 AM
There are plenty of studies done on Ornish's diet that shows drastic cholesterol and other heart health improvements. It's A way to eat, certainly not THE way. There are also studies done on Atkins style dieting that show the same. The Calories are the biggest factor, the fact that they had unhealthy people eating less it improved their health risks.

Most people get very hungry when trying to eat like this, but if you can stick with it and you have hypertension and hypercholesterolemia, go for it. It will improve your health. And contrary to popular belief you could gain muscle on it. I wouldnt do it though.

RedSpikeyThing
09-07-2007, 07:59 AM
Out of his entire university education, he spent about 2 weeks on nutrition.

And it shows.
that's brutal.

This is why I go to a doctor that used to do steroids the correct way and competed in body building. Dr. Smith for the win!
and that's awesome

Bikkstah
09-07-2007, 08:34 AM
Anthony's pretty spot on. I'm in a pre-med track program and only one, 3 credit hour class deals with nutrition. Don't go to a physician for nutrition advice. Go to a dietetician or nutritionist.

sharkall2003
09-07-2007, 09:21 AM
Hmmmm, I went to my doctor and he had nothing but good things to say about what I eat. I told him I eat high protein, low carbs and moderate fats. No preservatives and usually organic foods. Blood tests came back and my cholesterol was slightly elevated. I guess you can't argue with good blood results, perfect blood pressure, restring heart rate below 60 and little healthy problems.

smalls
09-07-2007, 05:36 PM
One of you geniuses explain to me what was so misguided about his scientifically backed suggestion. Why is following your own diets or the suggestions of other bulkers here better than this uneducated and misinformed doc.

I swear if I see one more bulking thread about micky ****in D's or the whopper, So many people bulk to absolute fatness on this site and claim it's in all in the name of muscle it's hillarious, and a bit sad.

And of course i'm not saying following his advice on a bulk is going to result in any less fat gain or better results than a higher fat diet or anything else "normally" recomended on a bodybuilding site. But he didnt tell the guy that squats are going to ruin his knees or to never deadlift, I mean come on, think before you post.

Anthony
09-07-2007, 06:53 PM
Here's the break down of his scientifically backed percentages in two situations:

The first will be based on my body weight (180 pounds) where I meet 1g protein per pound and 0.5g fat per pound as minimums. That equates to 720 calories from protein and 810 calories from fat. We will say that's 30% of total calories, which means 5100 total calories, or 892 grams of carbs.

The second scenario will be based on my current maintenance calories (approx 3500) using 70% carbs, 20% protein, and 10% fat. That would equate to 612g of carbs, 175g of protein, and 38g of fat.

I'm not sure how many of you actually eat 600-900 grams of carbs on a regular basis, but I can sure as **** tell you that it's not easy or comfortable. I don't think any responsible nutritionist would EVER recommend carbs that high for someone weighing 180 pounds.

Hello Syndrome-X.

Bikkstah
09-07-2007, 07:08 PM
I'm not a bodybuilder, smalls. I don't bulk period.

Alex.V
09-07-2007, 09:23 PM
Why is following your own diets or the suggestions of other bulkers here better than this uneducated and misinformed doc.


Because my own diet doesn't suck.

bill
09-07-2007, 09:47 PM
Not to say what the doc was telling is right or wrong. Of the pds how much is fat, it's easy to bulk and think your gaining a lot of muscle, when it's really fat.

smalls
09-07-2007, 10:07 PM
Here's the break down of his scientifically backed percentages in two situations:

The first will be based on my body weight (180 pounds) where I meet 1g protein per pound and 0.5g fat per pound as minimums. That equates to 720 calories from protein and 810 calories from fat. We will say that's 30% of total calories, which means 5100 total calories, or 892 grams of carbs.

The second scenario will be based on my current maintenance calories (approx 3500) using 70% carbs, 20% protein, and 10% fat. That would equate to 612g of carbs, 175g of protein, and 38g of fat.

I'm not sure how many of you actually eat 600-900 grams of carbs on a regular basis, but I can sure as **** tell you that it's not easy or comfortable. I don't think any responsible nutritionist would EVER recommend carbs that high for someone weighing 180 pounds.

Hello Syndrome-X.

You honestly believe that people are going to become insulin resistent at or below maintenance calories, regardeless of activity level, lifestyle etc (which the ornish diet does advocate and address)? And I eat 600+ grams of carbs at the beginning of my diets and lose weight, copious amounts of weight. Eating 7 or 800 grams of carbs might be difficult for you but I am hungry on that amount and that includes a much higher amount of fat and protein than he recomends as well.

I agree that the ratio's are extreme, I just think it's funny how so many people who live what would be considered an "extreme" lifestyle by the rest of society have such closed minds. The ornish diet is a health oriented diet usually given to grossly unhealthy, overweight individuals and it works for it's purposes, period. To think that a doctor giving that advice to aide his patient is misguided, uneducated and that steroid induced meathead doctors are the better way to go is just ignorant.

When I first started learning about his dietary recomendations and the studies behind them I thoght it was rediculous. I thought the ratio's where unneccasarily unlevel and that I would never recomend such a diet. But to see a bunch of internet know it all's bash an entire profession over information they know very little about makes me realize how close minded I myself can be, thanks. Seriously.

The funny thing is I probably dislike and have more reason to dislike docs than the rest of you. I just try to save my bashing to something worthwhile.

Bikkstah
09-07-2007, 10:23 PM
We only live an "extreme" lifestyle because 66% of the country is morbidly obese or obese. 1-5% of those people have some sort of medical disorder (thyroid) which makes it tougher (but not impossible with medication) to see results from diet and exercise. If the other 50~ or so per cent were in healthy shape, what the majority of people here do would be fairly normal. I follow my own diet because I can't afford $100 a month in health insurance to go see some doctor tell me I'm wrong for living the way I do. I lost 250lbs on my own without any "professional" health and am doing fine. When I first lost all my weight and was at my leanest, I went and saw my old family doctor who used to put his fingers around my wrist and call me fat to my face. He told me bodybuilding/powerlifting is unhealthy and he didn't recommend it. I haven't been back to a medical doctor since.

RhodeHouse
09-07-2007, 10:31 PM
Yeah, it's me. You know my "fat" ass saw the post about McD's. Don't bash God's food. It hurts me everytime someone says you get fat when you eat it. My BF only raised 1/10 of a point as I've gained 20lbs in 3 weeks. No drugs, either. And I didn't go from 180 to 200. I went from 291 to 310. My sleep will be restless tonight because of the unnecessary bashing of the Big Mac!

On to the post - I would take the Dr's advice for what it's worth. If you have health problems, you need to be smart about it. If not, I personally don't worry. Stay on top of your blood work. You need to eat for your goals. Sometimes, not always, but sometimes, that requires you to eat like crap. It also depends on how bad you want to reach your goals. Do whatever YOU are willing to do to get there. Just don't cry if you don't make it and haven't tried EVERYTHING you can to get there.

Dr's aren't that smart. Why would someone want to be in school for 20 years? That just seems dumb to me. Think about it.

RhodeHouse
09-07-2007, 10:34 PM
We only live an "extreme" lifestyle because 66% of the country is morbidly obese or obese. 1-5% of those people have some sort of medical disorder (thyroid) which makes it tougher (but not impossible with medication) to see results from diet and exercise. If the other 50~ or so per cent were in healthy shape, what the majority of people here do would be fairly normal. I follow my own diet because I can't afford $100 a month in health insurance to go see some doctor tell me I'm wrong for living the way I do. I lost 250lbs on my own without any "professional" health and am doing fine. When I first lost all my weight and was at my leanest, I went and saw my old family doctor who used to put his fingers around my wrist and call me fat to my face. He told me bodybuilding/powerlifting is unhealthy and he didn't recommend it. I haven't been back to a medical doctor since.

That's incredible! I'm seriously impressed. You will achieve anything you set your mind to. Just amazing. That takes the sting away from the negative McD's comments.

smalls
09-08-2007, 01:08 AM
Yeah, it's me. You know my "fat" ass saw the post about McD's. Don't bash God's food. It hurts me everytime someone says you get fat when you eat it. My BF only raised 1/10 of a point as I've gained 20lbs in 3 weeks. No drugs, either. And I didn't go from 180 to 200. I went from 291 to 310. My sleep will be restless tonight because of the unnecessary bashing of the Big Mac!

On to the post - I would take the Dr's advice for what it's worth. If you have health problems, you need to be smart about it. If not, I personally don't worry. Stay on top of your blood work. You need to eat for your goals. Sometimes, not always, but sometimes, that requires you to eat like crap. It also depends on how bad you want to reach your goals. Do whatever YOU are willing to do to get there. Just don't cry if you don't make it and haven't tried EVERYTHING you can to get there.




Good post, For the most part I totally agree. And I hope I didnt anger you about the mickey D's, lol. Nobody beats their apple pies, and double cheeseburgers for a buck. I just find it sad when there are a bunch of 16 year olds closing in on 20% BF and using fast food as bulking food when they dont even have the basics down.

I have eaten worse for the last 3 weeks than I have since I was a kid, and i'm as lean as i've ever been. I'm not trying to tell people how to eat, I understand that what you eat isnt as important as how much. I'm just saying that people bashing advice aimed towards the general population (which is who doctors are addressing, unless your huge and shredded he doesnt think of you as any different than the fat old lady coming in after you) based in fact is neither misguided or dumb. People need to realized their are a million ways to skin a cat and open their minds a little.

smalls
09-08-2007, 01:10 AM
We only live an "extreme" lifestyle because 66% of the country is morbidly obese or obese. 1-5% of those people have some sort of medical disorder (thyroid) which makes it tougher (but not impossible with medication) to see results from diet and exercise. If the other 50~ or so per cent were in healthy shape, what the majority of people here do would be fairly normal. I follow my own diet because I can't afford $100 a month in health insurance to go see some doctor tell me I'm wrong for living the way I do. I lost 250lbs on my own without any "professional" health and am doing fine. When I first lost all my weight and was at my leanest, I went and saw my old family doctor who used to put his fingers around my wrist and call me fat to my face. He told me bodybuilding/powerlifting is unhealthy and he didn't recommend it. I haven't been back to a medical doctor since.

Your preaching to the choir bro, I dont understand why. There are good doctors and bad, just like any other professions. Congrats on the progress.

Anthony
09-08-2007, 05:46 AM
Smalls, I absolutely believe that excessive carb intake is contributing to syndrome-x. The only essential macros are fat and protein and based on his ratios, both would be below minimum requirements for someone as active as I am. I don't need a doctor or a ****ing peer reviewed study to tell me that my performance drops when I lower my protein and fat. So here you have a doctor recommending a bunch of stuff you don't really need (carbs) and skimping on the stuff you do need (fat and protein).

It's irresponsible. If you disagree, that's cool. But I think you're playing devil's advocate on this one because a few kids waddled into your territory of expertise.

Read my signature, that's pretty much what I want to see people doing. It's not about "extremes" it's about balance, performance, and health. And the ocassional Big Mac. :D

Bikkstah
09-08-2007, 06:30 AM
Your preaching to the choir bro, I dont understand why. There are good doctors and bad, just like any other professions. Congrats on the progress.

I'm not preaching to the choir, you're accusing a population of self-educated, healthy people seeking to improve their lifestyle of not knowing what they're doing/not going to an M.D. for professional nutritional and dietetic help.

smalls
09-08-2007, 03:06 PM
Smalls, I absolutely believe that excessive carb intake is contributing to syndrome-x. The only essential macros are fat and protein and based on his ratios, both would be below minimum requirements for someone as active as I am. I don't need a doctor or a ****ing peer reviewed study to tell me that my performance drops when I lower my protein and fat. So here you have a doctor recommending a bunch of stuff you don't really need (carbs) and skimping on the stuff you do need (fat and protein).

It's irresponsible. If you disagree, that's cool. But I think you're playing devil's advocate on this one because a few kids waddled into your territory of expertise.

Read my signature, that's pretty much what I want to see people doing. It's not about "extremes" it's about balance, performance, and health. And the ocassional Big Mac. :D

I agree I am playing devils advocate but I have to disagree that the doctors advice is irresponsible. His advice as a doctor has to be aimed at the general population, which would see health benefits if they followed his advice. I have never seen noticable differences in my own performance with drastic dietary changes as long as calories are there, but your training and mine differ a lot, so obviously different strokes eh. I understand where you coming from. I also have to say the the impact carbs have on sydrome-x seems to be overstated. The hormonal changes from adipose tissue growth especially omentum fat also plays a large role, as does lack of activity. But there is a lot of grey in that area so who knows.

I agree with 99% of what you post, glad you didnt take my post harshly. I like the sig, always have. Keep it up.



I'm not preaching to the choir, you're accusing a population of self-educated, healthy people seeking to improve their lifestyle of not knowing what they're doing/not going to an M.D. for professional nutritional and dietetic help.

A great many people here dont know what they are doing yet think they do, take advice from close-minded one sided posters and therefore close their own minds. I never said anything about going to an M.D. or anyone else for nutritional info. Re-read my post, apparently I didnt clarify myself for which I will apolagize. But maybe if you read it again you will get my point.

Alex.V
09-08-2007, 03:38 PM
I have never seen noticable differences in my own performance with drastic dietary changes as long as calories are there,


A great many people here dont know what they are doing yet think they do, take advice from close-minded one sided posters and therefore close their own minds.

The first sentence pretty much sums up my entire philosophy on diet.

And the second sentence...well... truer words have rarely been spoken.

I do maintain... question EVERYTHING.

Built
09-08-2007, 03:55 PM
Here's the break down of his scientifically backed percentages in two situations:

The first will be based on my body weight (180 pounds) where I meet 1g protein per pound and 0.5g fat per pound as minimums. That equates to 720 calories from protein and 810 calories from fat. We will say that's 30% of total calories, which means 5100 total calories, or 892 grams of carbs.

The second scenario will be based on my current maintenance calories (approx 3500) using 70% carbs, 20% protein, and 10% fat. That would equate to 612g of carbs, 175g of protein, and 38g of fat.

I'm not sure how many of you actually eat 600-900 grams of carbs on a regular basis, but I can sure as **** tell you that it's not easy or comfortable. I don't think any responsible nutritionist would EVER recommend carbs that high for someone weighing 180 pounds.

Hello Syndrome-X.

From a comfort perspective, you know I personally agree with you Anthony (that's right, you finally have it in writing...) - I'd feel like ASS if I tried to do the Ornish food plan - hell, I felt like ass trying for the whole "Canada Food Guide" 55% of cals from carbs thing (as suggested by my former friend who went through the UBC dietetics programme. She's ana-bulemic and doesn't follow the guidelines herself).

That being said, IF YOU DON'T GO OVER MAINTENANCE, why would Syndrome-X be a concern? Keep in mind, this is coming from the perspective of someone who HAS it (or had it, anyway).

I certainly agree that on unrestricted calories, for many (most?) people, very low protein and fat and ass-high carbs will lead to overeating. But if calories are controlled? Without excess calories, how would this lead to Syndrome-X?

Anthony
09-08-2007, 06:05 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that obesity is no longer recognized as the cause of syndrome x, but rather just another symptom.

But honestly, I don't know. My guess is that yeah, you could reproduce syndrome x in that environment. I'm sure you can attest to the fact that macro balancing plays a huge role in body composition and therefore a host of other health indicators. I realize that excessive body weight certainly heightens those problems, but they still exist in "skinny" people as well. And I think if scientists revisited the term "obesity" to include body composition instead of BMI, you'd start seeing a lot more connections to macro intake and syndrome x.

Of course, that's only theory based on observing dietary habits of USA, Canada, and Britain. :D

RhodeHouse
09-08-2007, 08:26 PM
Smalls - no problem brother. I've been working on my dramatic writing skills. I also agree with you. Most info given by a Dr is aimed at the general population. And, there are too many fat young kids. It's sad. I blame the parents. As a personal trainer, I see too many fat kids. I actually had it out with a parent who asked me to talk to her fatty son about his eating habits. Turns out, she's making him cookies, so "he doesn't eat someone else's". Poor kid is 12! Needless to say, she didn't like anything I had to say about the subject.

nzk
09-08-2007, 08:32 PM
im a doc and i can tell u that we dont get much nutrition education in med school, what we do get is how to eat healthy and how to help our patients eat in a way that controls their disease process e.g. diabetes, hypertension etc. for all the specialty nutrition stuff, we call the nutritionists.
if u want diet advice on how to gain muscle, burn fat etc. go to a nutritionist who specializes in body building/fitness etc. not to say there arent docs out there that know nutrition, just that most dont.

smalls
09-08-2007, 09:05 PM
The first sentence pretty much sums up my entire philosophy on diet.

And the second sentence...well... truer words have rarely been spoken.

I do maintain... question EVERYTHING.

Thanks, it's crazy how long it takes me to realize some of these thing. The last two words in your post are by far the best thing I took away from my undergrad education. And what my best professors stressed the most, take everything with a grain of salt and use every available resource and your own brain to you to make an informed decision/opinion ect, and then still be open to change that opinion. Easier said than done for me.




And I think if scientists revisited the term "obesity" to include body composition instead of BMI, you'd start seeing a lot more connections to macro intake and syndrome x.

. :D

I think that is an awesome point and something most people obviously overlook. I think eventually bodyfat will start to be looked at more accurately, hopefully.

smalls
09-08-2007, 09:09 PM
And, there are too many fat young kids. It's sad. I blame the parents. As a personal trainer, I see too many fat kids.

Agreed, And no one wants to take responsability, at 12 or 10 or 5 who else is at fault but the parents. I realize it's difficult raising kids, foods expensive and there is only so much time in the day. But my mother engrained all 7 of her kids with the importance of health and getting off our asses. Not just with words but by example, the world is a different place though.

Bikkstah
09-08-2007, 09:19 PM
I find it cheaper to eat healthy now then the way I ate when I was 400lbs. Boxes and boxes of snacky cakes, bags of chips, and cases upon cases of soda is astoundingly expensive.

I see kids and young teens in my gym all the time with CPT's and the whole time I wonder if they are just exercising or working on their diet too.

smalls
09-08-2007, 09:30 PM
I see kids and young teens in my gym all the time with CPT's and the whole time I wonder if they are just exercising or working on their diet too.


The thing is, so many people including personal trainers think it's just about exercising here and there and you should be good to go. Diet is underrated. I agree, smart people can eat healthy cheap, but it takes a little time and effort to learn how and most people are unwilling, even when their kids futures are at stake.

RhodeHouse
09-08-2007, 09:33 PM
Agreed, And no one wants to take responsability, at 12 or 10 or 5 who else is at fault but the parents. I realize it's difficult raising kids, foods expensive and there is only so much time in the day. But my mother engrained all 7 of her kids with the importance of health and getting off our asses. Not just with words but by example, the world is a different place though.

Exactly! It is hard to raise kids. My answer - Don't have 'em if you can't raise 'em!

Built
09-08-2007, 11:07 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that obesity is no longer recognized as the cause of syndrome x, but rather just another symptom.
Not the cause, but insulin resistance is highly comorbid with obesity - insulin sensitivity improves with increased muscle and decreased fat mass. Even liposuction improves glucose control. My feeling is they haven't been testing against the correct variable, which you allude to below in your mention of BMI.



But honestly, I don't know. My guess is that yeah, you could reproduce syndrome x in that environment.


How?


I'm sure you can attest to the fact that macro balancing plays a huge role in body composition and therefore a host of other health indicators.
Only on uncontrolled caloric intake.

Put it this way: I started with Atkins. With ketosis comes appetite suppression. I under-ate, so I lost weight. While losing weight and my body was under higher-than-normal oxidative stress, I ate a high-protein diet and lifted, so I kept lean mass. This was serendipitous. My doctor gave me good advice. Thank God.

The correct macro balance reduced my appetite. This made dieting easy. The weight fell off me.

But I have no way of saying if I would have had worse recomposition had I dieted uncomfortably on the traditional low-fat plan. I mean, it's a moot point, I was never able to stick to this diet. It would have been torture to have dieted down any other way. But miserable as it would have been, I can find no evidence that a low-fat, high-carb diet with sufficient protein and EFAs would not have produced an identical end result.

I realize that excessive body weight certainly heightens those problems, but they still exist in "skinny" people as well. And I think if scientists revisited the term "obesity" to include body composition instead of BMI, you'd start seeing a lot more connections to macro intake and syndrome x.

I'm astonished that such an inadequate predictor as BMI continues to be used. I'm not even thrilled with bodyfat percentage. Although bone mass is metabolically active tissue, the bigger deal by far is the LBM:fat mass ratio. But then, medical and health-care research is notoriously so poorly performed, it is actually used in undergraduate Statistics courses to elucidate poorly designed studies.




Of course, that's only theory based on observing dietary habits of USA, Canada, and Britain. :D

Well no - nowhere near theory. This is conjecture. But you've certainly highlighted some interesting hypotheses for further testing.

sharkall2003
09-10-2007, 02:17 PM
I find it cheaper to eat healthy now then the way I ate when I was 400lbs. Boxes and boxes of snacky cakes, bags of chips, and cases upon cases of soda is astoundingly expensive.

I see kids and young teens in my gym all the time with CPT's and the whole time I wonder if they are just exercising or working on their diet too.

I see the same thing. Many kids my age that are very underdeveloped and are working hard. I put in two years work and I'm sitting comfortable with ab definition at 218 lbs (very little ab definition). Then again, I eat fairly strict and do cardio, and watch my protein.

Con
09-10-2007, 02:28 PM
Im not sure if im follwoing, since I dont know what Syndrome X is, but this quote caught my attention.
But I have no way of saying if I would have had worse recomposition had I dieted uncomfortably on the traditional low-fat plan. I mean, it's a moot point, I was never able to stick to this diet. It would have been torture to have dieted down any other way. But miserable as it would have been, I can find no evidence that a low-fat, high-carb diet with sufficient protein and EFAs would not have produced an identical end result.


Isnt the composition of weight loss, almost identical for low-fat and low-carb diets?


I see the same thing. Many kids my age that are very underdeveloped and are working hard. I put in two years work and I'm sitting comfortable with ab definition at 218 lbs (very little ab definition). Then again, I eat fairly strict and do cardio, and watch my protein.

Just curious but what were your beggining stats, bodycomp like?

And what are CPTS?

Teutates
09-10-2007, 02:54 PM
I thought plenty of fats were necessary for Testosterone production?

smalls
09-10-2007, 07:13 PM
Plenty is a very broad term, fat's are most certainly necassary. How much depends on the individual, activity level etc.

Con
09-10-2007, 07:15 PM
Does higher activity = more or less needed? Id assume more, but im not sure.

greekboy80
09-11-2007, 07:06 PM
The first sentence pretty much sums up my entire philosophy on diet.

And the second sentence...well... truer words have rarely been spoken.

I do maintain... question EVERYTHING.

Agreed. Dont believe the hype....

I recently started a new job(PE teacher/football coach) and I haven't been able to get the macros that I have been able to get up to in the recent years. I try to eat my macros of pro, cho and fats as accurate as possible, but on most days its very hard and sporadic(for ovbious reasons). I've been averaging around 100-125 grams of protein a day(i'm 205 lbs).

Guess what happend??????

Nothing...

Lifts are still the same and suprisingly enough, my muscles have not withered away.

sharkall2003
09-11-2007, 09:02 PM
Con: I started on here at 185 lbs. And then I bulked up to some weight, and cut down to 195. And then I bulked hard up to 240. And then I have been cutting for over three months now and I'm 217ish. Sometimes 219 or so. And I don't know what you're asking.

Alex.V
09-11-2007, 09:14 PM
Guess what happend??????

Nothing...

Lifts are still the same and suprisingly enough, my muscles have not withered away.

I've noticed this several times over the course of my lifting/exercise career. I'll stop obsessing about a certain aspect of my diet, or skip the occasional workout, or leave out a protein shake here or there....and I'm never the worse for wear.