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View Full Version : For those of you that cut down to 10% or below, what method?



Excelsior
09-13-2007, 01:19 PM
Just wondering. Did you use conventional dieting (calorie deficit/counting), carb manipulation etc. or a more specialzed approach like UD2, PSMF and so forth.

WillKuenzel
09-13-2007, 01:29 PM
I used just a conventional caloric deficit diet until I got below 8%. From there it got more specialized but if you stick to the diet, there's no reason why you need to do anything crazy until you drop to the single digits.

1ManRiot
09-13-2007, 01:32 PM
Cal deficit would do for the majority, perhaps a little carb-cycling to mix things up if it gets slow or simply if you prefer that method anyway. Keto has its advantages, but I think it is best reserved for stage BBers IMO

Built
09-13-2007, 02:31 PM
Cal deficit would do for the majority, perhaps a little carb-cycling to mix things up if it gets slow or simply if you prefer that method anyway. Keto have its advantages, but I think it is best reserved for stage BBers IMO

Wanna explain that one 1Man?

1ManRiot
09-13-2007, 02:45 PM
Explain what?

Isaac Wilkins
09-13-2007, 02:46 PM
Explain what?

Why you feel keto is best reserved for competition bodybuilders.

1ManRiot
09-13-2007, 02:48 PM
Why you feel keto is best reserved for competition bodybuilders.
Because it is very easy to make a pigs ear of, and is more useful for getting down to single figures once other avenues are tried.

You will notice a tactically placed 'IMO' in my post. Whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant to me.

Cirino83
09-13-2007, 02:51 PM
UD2.0 is a good way to get from 12-13% to 10 or under.

Isaac Wilkins
09-13-2007, 02:54 PM
Because it is very easy to make a pigs ear of, and is more useful for getting down to single figures once other avenues are tried.

You will notice a tactically placed 'IMO' in my post. Whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant to me.

I did notice, hence why I asked you to explain. Your attitude is irrelevant to me.

I'm going to assume that "to make a pig's ear of" means to mess up. I've not heard the expression, but might use it in the future. In which case, I agree, it's easy to screw up a keto diet.

Why do you feel that other avenues are to be tried? Simple lack of user control?

Built
09-13-2007, 02:55 PM
Because it is very easy to make a pigs ear of, and is more useful for getting down to single figures once other avenues are tried.

You will notice a tactically placed 'IMO' in my post. Whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant to me.

Lose the attitude 1man. Nobody said they were disagreeing with you.

Why do you feel it's more useful for getting down to single figures?

1ManRiot
09-13-2007, 03:10 PM
Lose the attitude 1man. Nobody said they were disagreeing with you.
The attitude was brought about from elsewhere.


Why do you feel that other avenues are to be tried? Simple lack of user control?
IME, it would seem some people see it as, dare I say it, an easy option, and don't manage it properly. Over-consumption (here I go again :)) of protein and fat is very common, failing to appreciate the need to remain in a caloire deficit is also common, and mismanaging their carb intake, be it targetted or cycled, to workout at maximum intensity.

I think that the psychological punish/reward and effective control of insulin/leptin/etc that carb-cycling offers makes it one of the better methods.


Why do you feel it's more useful for getting down to single figures?
Again this is my personal opinion/preference, but in the absense of any long-term studies relating to ketosis and its potential risks, it is still a useful tool to fire up fat-burning efforts once the "main" fat-loss has already been sorted and you are down to a final few pounds. As you are no doubt aware, due to an absence of carbs, water levels will also be low, which is a useful trait for stage condition.

What are your thoughts on keto for cutting?

Built
09-13-2007, 03:16 PM
Anything that reduces calories while maintaining high protein levels will protect LBM during a cut. Why would you want low water levels? If you're still cutting a week out, it's too late - the last week is a manipulation, not a cut.

Dehydration is not at all helpful for a cut.

You still haven't answered my question: HOW is it "useful to fire up fat burning efforts"?

I don't care where you got your attitude. Lose it.

KingWilder
09-13-2007, 03:19 PM
Intermittent Fasting

Isaac Wilkins
09-13-2007, 03:27 PM
Built, he was indicating that low water levels were useful for the competition bodybuilder, not for cutting or the actual process of cutting, I think.

To that I would argue that intracellular water is what is lost (bound to glycogen), and that has a negative effect on stage condition. Muscles look flat. Extracellular water is the bad guy for stage condition, and keto shouldn't have too much of an effect on that.

Being in a hypocarbohydrate state should provide good impetus for glycogen storage and filling up, which is common for contest shape.

Some research I heard lectured this year indicated that depletion wasn't necessary for carb loading (focusing on performance, not physique), so that might be something to look in to. I personally haven't, so take that just to be thrown out there.


My take on keto: I've found keto to be very successful for fat loss, but I've also had similar success simply from reduced carbohydrate intake. I've had better LBM retention (and gains) from carb-cycling. Of course, the lowest I've gone is about 13-14% at 235, so from personal experience I'm not all that useful for this discussion.

Clients who I've advised down to single digit body fat have had similar results, though. I've had success with keto, but better overall success with carb-cycling as their performance was higher. In the end the superior performance outweighed the possible benefits of keto. Of course, I train in a different manner than old school bodybuilding, so performance is more important.

Built
09-13-2007, 03:36 PM
I appreciate your playing devil's advocate Borris, but 1man was suggesting that the lower water levels were additionally helpful for stage condition - but we were talking fat loss.

I happen to agree with you, dehydration only serves to make the competitor look flat. Contest prep is all about selective hydration. It has nothing to do with fat loss.

I diet down and prep for pix as if I were competing, and I've been close to contest levels of leanness several times now, so this is something I'm quite familiar with.

I find ketosis and lower carb approaches more comfortable for dieting, to be sure. I take advantage of this as well as the ergogenic benefit of higher carbohydrate consumption in the periworkout window to afford improved performance while controlling appetite outside this time frame.

But for cutting, really, it all comes down to remaining relatively comfortable while starving. Carb cycling/lower carb/keto is spectacular in this regard for many.

Any other potential benefit to this approach is not pronounced.

1ManRiot
09-13-2007, 03:39 PM
If you're still cutting a week out

Dehydration is not at all helpful for a cut.
You are misinterperating my meanings.


HOW is it "useful to fire up fat burning efforts"?
Maybe a poor choice of words on my part. What I mean is, once fat loss begins to slow down, you have increased cardio, dropped further calories, but are struggling to lose a last few pounds, keto can breathe new life into weight loss as it uses completely different systems.


Anything that reduces calories while maintaining high protein levels will protect LBM during a cut.
This is too vague a statement to be true or false? If you drop carbs/cals too low below maintenance yet still too high to cause your body to create ketones (in a regular -cal cut for example), you will risk muscle mass as your body will strive to fuel the brain its preferred energy source through gluceogenesis.

Isaac Wilkins
09-13-2007, 03:40 PM
Built: Agreed, I'm just kicking up discussion.


Borris: Handing Out Rope Since 1983.

Built
09-13-2007, 04:06 PM
You are misinterperating my meanings.


Maybe a poor choice of words on my part. What I mean is, once fat loss begins to slow down, you have increased cardio, dropped further calories, but are struggling to lose a last few pounds, keto can breathe new life into weight loss as it uses completely different systems.
How? What completely different systems?



This is too vague a statement to be true or false? If you drop carbs/cals too low below maintenance yet still too high to cause your body to create ketones (in a regular -cal cut for example), you will risk muscle mass as your body will strive to fuel the brain its preferred energy source through gluceogenesis.

You will always lose muscle deep into a cut. Even on AAS, you will lose muscle to become stage-lean.

Keeping protein high helps minimize this by maintaining a positive nitrogen balance during this period of oxidative stress - but you know this, right?

You're suggesting going into ketosis is good toward the end of a cut, but then contradicting yourself by suggesting ketosis will chew through muscle in an effort to feed the brain.

You've got a few of the buzz words going, but you appear to be a bit unclear on how to arrange these words to have meaning.

Have you done precontest prep before?

emjlr3
09-14-2007, 07:45 AM
the lowest I have been is around 9, I can never keep it going long enough to try and get lower, however, I use a Built like approach

carb cycling, calorie deficit, EC stack, lift heavy, cardio if I must, which I almost never must

carb cycling for me makes it easy to eat a lot, stay full, but stay under maintnance, and in the ehdn acheive the desired goal

theravingphycho
09-15-2007, 04:30 AM
carb cycling i find is a better method than keto simply because its more of a easier regime to stick to plus it tends to yield better results as leptin is satisfied better

keto works well but not my personal choice

IMO EC stacks are overrates 3-5% increase in metabolic rate with loads of sides. Just not worth it, youll burn more calories by going for a hour walk

Unreal
09-20-2007, 01:33 PM
I don't think many of us here use EC for calorie burning, but for the stimulant and appetite supression.

theravingphycho
09-20-2007, 01:57 PM
stimulant maybe, use caffeine for that and as for appetite suppression a cuting diet should not mean you are hungry

Eat more and up the output

Built
09-20-2007, 02:09 PM
stimulant maybe, use caffeine for that and as for appetite suppression a cuting diet should not mean you are hungry

Eat more and up the output

Huh?

theravingphycho
09-20-2007, 02:11 PM
The best cutting diets from experience Built are the ones where the calorie deficit somes from exercise and not the diet. I have always got down to sub 10% with above maintenance cals and some cardio in addition to my weights without any loss of strength either

Thats why i say high input (cals) high output (exercise and daily output)

Built
09-20-2007, 05:36 PM
The best cutting diets from experience Built are the ones where the calorie deficit somes from exercise and not the diet.
Are you insane? Where did you come up with THIS one? How do you figure you can get down to contest lean without losing size if you TRAIN the fat off?



I have always got down to sub 10% with above maintenance cals and some cardio in addition to my weights without any loss of strength either

Thats why i say high input (cals) high output (exercise and daily output)


How old are you?

theravingphycho
09-20-2007, 11:50 PM
im 29

contest BF is another story and a different set of rules. Im on about the average gym rat who can get down to 9% without any special protocol

To answer the question no im not insane, i just got checked for that :D

On a more serious note i fuel my cardio accordingly and as fat loss is about calorie deficits (diet has to be good as well) and if you eat more than maintenance thyroid output will not be compromised thus leading to a very good fat loss environment.

LouPac
09-21-2007, 12:15 AM
The best cutting diets from experience Built are the ones where the calorie deficit somes from exercise and not the diet. I have always got down to sub 10% with above maintenance cals and some cardio in addition to my weights without any loss of strength either

Thats why i say high input (cals) high output (exercise and daily output)

I think that solution would work for the small population that are not susceptible to fast weight gain. I can see that working if you've never been over 20% bf and are relatively lean. However, if you've been over 20% bf fo a large portion of your life, there's no way above maintenance calories w/ "some cardio" will get you down to sub 10%.

theravingphycho
09-21-2007, 12:23 AM
lou i was in fact 45% bodyfat for over 10 years and now sit at 9%. I dropped from 45% to 9% in 18 months by using diet and exercise program (weights and cardio)

my "some" cardio is 5 hours a week of high intensity. i eat 4000 cals every day as well with high carbs

LouPac
09-21-2007, 12:38 AM
lou i was in fact 45% bodyfat for over 10 years and now sit at 9%. I dropped from 45% to 9% in 18 months by using diet and exercise program (weights and cardio)

my "some" cardio is 5 hours a week of high intensity. i eat 4000 cals every day as well with high carbs

Well, that is some very impressive progress. 5 hours a week of high intensity cardio is A LOT. Apparrently it worked well for you, but, still, everyone is different, and that approach did not work for me.

Built
09-21-2007, 10:56 AM
Me neither. Former fat jogger here.

I'd overtrain if I tried to exercise off the weight. I diet it off. It's the only thing that ever worked.

theravingphycho
09-21-2007, 11:10 AM
How would you overtrain built?

Weights 3 times a week with a maintenace level diet would easily yield a pound of fat loss from my experience. I just prefer the high input high output approach as i respond better to it

monkeyarms
09-21-2007, 11:38 AM
Weights 3 times a week with a maintenace level diet would easily yield a pound of fat loss from my experience.

You can burn 1200 cals per session? That's amazing....you must do 5-hour hard-working weight sessions then......which I think would be overtraining?

theravingphycho
09-21-2007, 11:48 AM
No i only do 3 times a week 1.5 hours each session

I walk to the gym as well

Also i take into account TEF of food as well. Ive lost 1 lb a week quite easily

Lifestyle as well comes into it i dont have a standard desk job

monkeyarms
09-21-2007, 12:43 PM
Lifestyle as well comes into it i dont have a standard desk job

??
You don't include your lifestyle in your maintenance calorie equation?

most people would say that your eating under maintenance then....

eps
09-21-2007, 01:09 PM
I'm doing UD2.0 at the moment. A regular deficit would be fine at my BF%... but with UD2.0 I was able to see weekly visual changes in my body composition... so the sacrifice of it being "more difficult" to do is justified to me

and I'm a little impatient :angel:

Built
09-21-2007, 01:43 PM
I don't count the deficit from training at all, since I train whether I'm cutting or bulking. Or maintaining. It's a sunk cost.

For me to train off a pound a week, I'd have to create 3500 calories worth of deficit from ADDITIONAL exercise, NOT overeat to compensate, and pray to GOD the weight I was losing all came from fat.

I have a day job. I pay no attention whatsover to the few piddling calories I'm burning off from TEF.

And I've finally been able to maintain my weight loss - something I never managed to do when I tried to train it off.

ddegroff
09-21-2007, 05:39 PM
I voted for UD2 because that's what it was made for. People in double digits trying to get to single digits bf.

I think either form works. I droped 15lbs doing -250cals/day, working out 3/wk, and riding 12miles a day on my bike. I found this much eaiser than just doing it by diet alone.

I've also done UD2 to about the same bf% last summer. I think either way works. All that really matters is what you can deal with.

JSully
09-26-2007, 06:17 PM
I got down to 9% with PSMF. I got down to 12% with UD2 and could have gone further.

I do not see how anyone can get down to sub 10% levels without some kind of deficit unless you're figuring your maintenance calores on the very low end of the math scale and you just so happen to be in the deficit without really knowing it. A true maintenance caloric diet will not allow you to gain or lose weight, no matter what kind of training your doing, you're supposed to factor that in.

In any case, my body likes to sit around 18% naturally. I've gotta work my ass off to get lower, and I can generally eat whatever I want and not get any higher.

Also, you said you were the average gym rat at 9%. The AVERAGE gym rat is not 9%. The AVERAGE gym rat is about 15-18%.

And good job on the weight loss. I'm going to be starting a cut here pretty soon. I hate cutting.

theravingphycho
09-28-2007, 10:07 AM
whats PMSF mate?


My bodyfat measuring may be off as i use calipers but i o via mirror more than anything. I always figured my maintenance by me sitting on my backside every day (i.e. sedentary) and im a carb burner at rest too (been tested)

Average, much like normal differsn from person to person but ive helped people get down to around 10-11% with no special protocol involved. it was simply eating, exercising and doing any modifications possible if losses slowed

Thank you for the compliment Jake, i wish you all the best on your cut, i love it personally but then again i myself am not "normal" :D

Levantar
09-29-2007, 02:34 AM
I don't count the deficit from training at all, since I train whether I'm cutting or bulking. Or maintaining. It's a sunk cost.

.


It sounds like you 2 are using different definitions of "maintainence" calories. 1man is saying his maintainence does not include his exercise and lifestyle. Built is including her exercise and lifestyle.

Any way you slice it you are both talking about a caloric deficit. Example:

1. If I say my maintainence level is 2000 calories without exercise and work. 2. It is the same as saying my maintainence is 2600 including my exercise and work (assuming my exercise and works burns 600 cals a day).

I can say that I am eating "above" my maintainence (if I use the first way of explaining my maintainence) while consuming 2300 cals. Or I can say I am eating "below" my maintainence (if use explain it the 2nd way) while eating the same 2300 calories.

Unreal
09-29-2007, 04:25 AM
PSMF is a protein sparing modified fast. Another diet by Lyle McDonald.

Jordanbcool
09-29-2007, 10:53 PM
The only diet that ever worked for me was the PSMF and to a lesser extent the UD2 diet by Lyle Mcdonald. He is God when it comes to dieting and ketosis.

But yea. I went from 35% when I first started working out to 13% at my lowest this past summer. His diet worked fantastic.

Built
10-02-2007, 12:11 PM
It sounds like you 2 are using different definitions of "maintainence" calories. 1man is saying his maintainence does not include his exercise and lifestyle. Built is including her exercise and lifestyle.

If you don't include exercise and lifestyle, it's not maintenance - it's BMR.

Bupp
03-10-2008, 10:57 PM
I think someone must have voted on the poll to bring this thread back from the grave.

Now that everyone is done arguing I'd find it very interesting to hear more success stories of people who got down to low BF levels and what kind of workouts/dieting they did.

radioheadhead
03-11-2008, 04:13 PM
I'm around 11% now, I'll let you know if I make it to 8%. Just using caloric deficit/ common sense for now. It's funny, I can see my abs but my love handles just won't go away! Oh well, maybe 6-8 more pounds...


P.S. living on South Beach is a great motivator!