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View Full Version : how important is calorie intake apposed to eatin just low carb high protein?



colfman20
09-15-2007, 07:46 PM
i used to powerlift then got out of it i never lost my size or strength just got flabby and a gut ... ive been watchin what i eat and been doing cardio 3 times a week with a high rep low weight work out.....i wanna cut up maybe bodybuild but i wanna see results so i can have some more confidence ... its hard gettin back in the weight room and not being able to do what u once could...right now ive been staying away from carbs and fat and just basically been eating all protein....any suggestions...? is the calorie intake why im not seeing as much results...?



5'7
225

KingWilder
09-15-2007, 08:01 PM
carbs and fat are not the enemy, it's all about total calories

if your intake is less than your expenditure you'll lose the weight, but that doesn't mean cutting out carbs which you need for energy or healthy fats

what's a basic breakdown of how much you normally eat in a day? (carbs, fats, proteins, total cals?)

BFGUITAR
09-15-2007, 08:04 PM
If you want muscle you have to eat!
Fat is required for proper body function, its not the enemy. Protein is needed for tissue building. Carbs arent needed exactly but are always good to have and make eating the other two a lot easier.

1ManRiot
09-15-2007, 08:09 PM
^ you won't grow without carbs.

LouPac
09-15-2007, 08:15 PM
^ you won't grow without carbs.

1- That's not necessarily true.

2- He doesn't want to grow, he wants to lose fat.

To the OP: I suggest first cutting your overall calories and see how you do. If you hit a wall, then you can carb cycle and see how that works for you.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
09-16-2007, 12:04 AM
^ you won't grow without carbs.Look up the word GLUCONEOGENESIS.

Also, stop pasting crap. Thanks.

theravingphycho
09-16-2007, 04:53 AM
yes gluconeogenesis does play a part in glucose production. But the body will readily break down muscle in order to fuel gluconeogenesis rather than digest protein. Carbs are protein sparing, so eat carbs but dont go nuts on them. Also you have to factor in the TEF of food as well, protein has a much higher TEF rating than carbs so you will need to consume more protein to end up with the same amount of cals after body functions like digestion and other variables like exercise comes into account. Also id love to see anyone train at maximal intensity with just P+F macros, just doesnt happen.

Right amount of macros, right time.

Scarz i would also ask you to stop being rude as politeness works both ways, im sure you would want the forum to continue being civil and attract new members.

To the OP, lift heavy and keep your muscle. Calorie deficit to be achieved weekly through output. Post up your diet and current training progream for a critique as it will be far more useful :)

sharkall2003
09-16-2007, 06:45 AM
^ you won't grow without carbs.

Do you ever know what you're talking about? I eat 100 carbs or less everyday except Sunday and I weight 215 and have definition in my abs. Please, stop being ignorant when you post. There is a minimal amount of carbs that you should intake daily (50 grams) that's for motor/sensory function of the brain.

If he wants lower carbs he can have carb/protein meals at the same time and that'll work just fine.

Overall calories decides if you'll grow or shrink. It's as easy as that.

theravingphycho
09-16-2007, 07:05 AM
Shark

Actually its 100g of carbs for brain function anything less is ketgogenic

Why do you have a carb up on sunday if you dont grow on low carbs. Protein synthesis will be hindered if glycogen stores arent catered for with a adequate amount

Granted youll grow, but not as fast as if you employed more carbs

Calories play a deciding role in whether you will grow all calories are not created equal

Eat nothing but protein & fat and shove in gluconeogenesis too and see if you grow lean body mass or shrink

1MR said you wont grow without carbs, what youve said you have agreed with him so why the attack? BTW wheres the figure of 50g come from? You are also aware that glucose is the bodies preferred fuel source right?

Edit: why are people on here so fecking rude to other members. Im starting to consider leaving and go elsewhere where debate is welcomed and members can control themselves form being keyboard warriors and have some manners

sharkall2003
09-16-2007, 07:09 AM
Shark

Actually its 100g of carbs for brain function anything less is ketgogenic

Why do you have a carb up on sunday if you dont grow on low carbs. Protein synthesis will be hindered if glycogen stores arent catered for with a adequate amount

Granted youll grow, but not as fast as if you employed more carbs

Calories play a deciding role in whether you will grow all calories are not created equal

Eat nothing but protein & fat and shove in gluconeogenesis too and see if you grow lean body mass or shrink

1MR said you wont grow without carbs, what youve said you have agreed with him so why the attack? BTW wheres the figure of 50g come from? You are also aware that glucose is the bodies preferred fuel source right?

Ketosis will start at roughly 50 grams of carbohydrates. Ketosis will not develop as quickly at around 100 grams of carbohydrates. That's why I said 50 grams. Somewhere between 50-100 is the cutoff.

theravingphycho
09-16-2007, 07:18 AM
50-100 depending on what cutoff, lean body mass, gender, current glycogen state?

Why does drinking a diet coke throw you out of ketosis as well?

You also havent replid to my other points too, are you agreeing with them?

Chickenlegs
09-16-2007, 08:31 AM
theravingphycho------some people appreciate your posts. Keep up the good work!:thumbup:

cujo1
09-16-2007, 08:46 AM
i think its cals over anything i aint 100% sure though.

theravingphycho
09-16-2007, 09:08 AM
cujo1

bulking is about calories in excess of the right macros

its not that hard to bulk, but its hard to bulk effectively and laying down the most amount of lean tissue with the least amount of fat.

Good example if its purely about cals you should be able to bulk off of lard and sugar, but you cant.
Theres a good article on Tnation i came across ages ago, have a look to see what you think

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1268956

Chickenlegs thanks for the kind words mate :)

Slim Schaedle
09-16-2007, 10:03 AM
Chickenlegs thanks for the kind words mate :)

I still think it's a bit coincidental that 1manriot and you pop up as new members as of September 2007, your first post was in defense of 1MR related the ongoing debate about meal frequency/timing/etc., your posts play tag- team with 1MR's using similar language style and content/knowledge, your user names follow similar format....and now you are using "mate" as well.

;)

Of course, I tend to just be rather observant and read into things.

But, as 1manriot mentioned in another post, he has a social life and I would be surprised if he wasted time creating multiple WBB names.

onecrazycowgirl
09-16-2007, 10:29 AM
To add to the "yeah, eat some carbs" bandwagon, it's way harder on your liver to use sources other than carbs for energy. Carbs aren't evil, but anything in excess will make you fat. Ideal intake is like 55-60% of your deat being carbs - your body reall doesn't need that much protein - like .8g(or is it oz? shoot.) per kg of bodyweight.

dscarth
09-16-2007, 11:01 AM
I still think it's a bit coincidental that 1manriot and you pop up as new members as of September 2007, your first post was in defense of 1MR related the ongoing debate about meal frequency/timing/etc., your posts play tag- team with 1MR's using similar language style and content/knowledge, your user names follow similar format....and now you are using "mate" as well.

;)

Of course, I tend to just be rather observant and read into things.

But, as 1manriot mentioned in another post, he has a social life and I would be surprised if he wasted time creating multiple WBB names.

Maybe we can get an admin to sniff out the sockpuppet?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Carlb-sockpuppet-wikipedia.jpg

pbal17
09-16-2007, 11:31 AM
ahaha i love that picture, not sure why but sock puppets are great.

every aspect of eating and diet is important to me, i dont see it as what is more or less important

sharkall2003
09-16-2007, 11:38 AM
To add to the "yeah, eat some carbs" bandwagon, it's way harder on your liver to use sources other than carbs for energy. Carbs aren't evil, but anything in excess will make you fat. Ideal intake is like 55-60% of your deat being carbs - your body reall doesn't need that much protein - like .8g(or is it oz? shoot.) per kg of bodyweight.

It's really not that "hard" on your liver to use other sources for energy. This is just brought up because some people are not that keen on having so much protein in their diet.

VikingWarlord
09-16-2007, 12:21 PM
Right amount of macros, right time.

To get the best results, this seems pretty much true, but still has to be done with a deficit to lose or a surplus to gain.



Actually its 100g of carbs for brain function anything less is ketgogenic

This isn't necessarily the case with everyone. It seems to be more a heuristic than anything. It's been tossed around so much that the origin of it seems to have been lost. There are a lot of mitigating factors, like anything else.

1ManRiot
09-16-2007, 12:53 PM
I love you guys and your advice to newbies.

"yeah mate, who needs carbs anyway".


But, as 1manriot mentioned in another post, he has a social life and I would be surprised if he wasted time creating multiple WBB names.
If it bothers you so much, compare writing styles or ping for IPs.

theravingphycho
09-16-2007, 02:53 PM
I still think it's a bit coincidental that 1manriot and you pop up as new members as of September 2007, your first post was in defense of 1MR related the ongoing debate about meal frequency/timing/etc., your posts play tag- team with 1MR's using similar language style and content/knowledge, your user names follow similar format....and now you are using "mate" as well.

;)

Of course, I tend to just be rather observant and read into things.

But, as 1manriot mentioned in another post, he has a social life and I would be surprised if he wasted time creating multiple WBB names.

I say mate because im english, think of it as the british term for "friend". Think what you want mate, ask the admin to check our IP's and email addresses. Coincidences mean nothing in my book, i just happen to agree with 1MR POV thats all, its similiar to mine. I am still waiting on your input on the thread i initially responded to

You read too much into things that do not exist, however it shows an active minf which i cannot fault you for. Perhaps 1MR is also english i have no idea, i may ask him/her

1ManRiot
09-16-2007, 03:05 PM
Manchester mate :clap:

theravingphycho
09-16-2007, 03:07 PM
ah a mancunian i see, london boy myself

cujo1
09-16-2007, 10:37 PM
oh word im from london my self. I aint too sure but all i do is follow the atleast 1g of protein per lbm 0.5g of fat per lbm rest can be carbs

theravingphycho
09-17-2007, 06:05 AM
It's really not that "hard" on your liver to use other sources for energy. This is just brought up because some people are not that keen on having so much protein in their diet.

Youre also forgetting that its a lot harder to consume excess cals in the form of protein alone as protein is the biggest rater of satiety. More protein means you feel full easier and if youre trying to pack away lots of cals it can be a problem as most people will feel physically sick.

Bodies preferred fuel source is carbs in the form of glucose, give the body what it needs and it will build muscle at a optimal rate, starve it of what it needs and results will often be suboptimal

sharkall2003
09-17-2007, 06:36 AM
Youre also forgetting that its a lot harder to consume excess cals in the form of protein alone as protein is the biggest rater of satiety. More protein means you feel full easier and if youre trying to pack away lots of cals it can be a problem as most people will feel physically sick.

Bodies preferred fuel source is carbs in the form of glucose, give the body what it needs and it will build muscle at a optimal rate, starve it of what it needs and results will often be suboptimal

Yes, but more fiber means you'll feel fuller longer too. I try to have a lot of fiber, protein, and good fats in my diet. Listen to your own body. I already knew everything, but I was just letting people know about the protein myth out there.

theravingphycho
09-17-2007, 06:46 AM
yes fibre helps as well

I do find that sweeping statement "i know everything already" rather laughable as that shows a level of arrogance far beyond anything ive seen

I dont know everything, i hope i never do because if i did it would mean that human knowledge had stopped progressing

sharkall2003
09-17-2007, 06:54 AM
yes fibre helps as well

I do find that sweeping statement "i know everything already" rather laughable as that shows a level of arrogance far beyond anything ive seen

I dont know everything, i hope i never do because if i did it would mean that human knowledge had stopped progressing

Do you ever stop? I knew everything you talked about. It seems like you add a lot of useless information in the quest to make yourself seem more intelligent on this board. You've argued with me on numbers about ketosis, which I took my information from Lyle McDonald. You then talk about protein causing hire satiety. Well, no crap. Protein is harder to break down, of course you'll feel full longer. I'm in no way arrogant in the nutrition section of this board. I read and read about many different nutritional sections. But I'm also willing to make sure I'm not blindly following anything.

It always starts with me talking about someones misinformation, and that was what dealt with the carbohydrate intake. You don't need carbs to grow, but they do help at certain times. If you're only eating protein it only goes to stand you'll be burning protein for energy, not for growth of muscle. I never said eliminate carbs altogether. But you decided to go on this long spiel. The real amount of carbs you need in a day is 0. You don't need any carbs in your diet. You'd use protein and fats for all your energy if you had to.

theravingphycho
09-17-2007, 08:02 AM
no not really, i never stop. I question people who make bold sweeping statements such as " i know everything already" yet you argue this statement isnt arrogant. Interesting i have to say. The numbers i gave you were from LM book which i assume you got your figures "the ketogenic diet"

You are rude beyond belief, i simply stated a fact to which you agreed with me on why the need for "Well no crap"? Im here to learn yet im getting attitude from the likes of keyboard heroes like yourself.

Tell me how can you grow on 0 carbs please, id honestly like to know. While youre at it perhaps as you know everything already explain to me the role of carbs in human physiology

KingWilder
09-17-2007, 08:30 AM
Tell me how can you grow on 0 carbs please, id honestly like to know. While youre at it perhaps as you know everything already explain to me the role of carbs in human physiology

You eat over maintenance of purely protein and fats

is it ideal? Probably not, but it would work.

markdk86
09-17-2007, 09:08 AM
I will put it simple. We all lke shark, so I pick him above you, psycho. Stop bickering. He has been here a long time and you are starting off on the wrong foot.

He said don't go below 50 carbs a day, because yes, you will indeed experience a decrease in brain and motor function. I have experienced it myself. Carbs are not the only source of energy. You can grow on any calorie surplus, but more protein than carbohydrates is ideal, not neccessary, but ideal. Digesting protein is easier than producing protein in terms of mucle building, it is more effective. Everyone's body is different, what may be good for one is not good for some.

P.S. Don't bash Lyle McDonald, he is a lot smarter than you will ever hope to be.

sharkall2003
09-17-2007, 09:55 AM
no not really, i never stop. I question people who make bold sweeping statements such as " i know everything already" yet you argue this statement isnt arrogant. Interesting i have to say. The numbers i gave you were from LM book which i assume you got your figures "the ketogenic diet"

You are rude beyond belief, i simply stated a fact to which you agreed with me on why the need for "Well no crap"? Im here to learn yet im getting attitude from the likes of keyboard heroes like yourself.

Tell me how can you grow on 0 carbs please, id honestly like to know. While youre at it perhaps as you know everything already explain to me the role of carbs in human physiology

It's not my problem you're overly humble.

Do you know what calories burned and calories taken in is? If you know that, you'll know how you grow.

theravingphycho
09-17-2007, 11:02 AM
im still waiting for a answer as to the role of carbohydrate within the human body. Anyone have a answer? Didnt join here for a popularity contest or to be someones favorite nor to troll or insult people.

Shark im not overly humble its called manners last time i checked, they dont cost anything either. If you wouldnt mind answering the question above id appreciate it, thanks :)

Mark, please show me where i bashed Lyle Mcdonald. Also please tell me how carbs are not the ideal source of energy for your body.

Kingwilder why would you eat purely protein and fats, gluconeogenesis comes into it to convert excess protein into glucose which is inefficient at best. Why not just include carbs in your diet to begin with as theyre lower on TEF plus have many other benefits.

KingWilder
09-17-2007, 01:36 PM
Kingwilder why would you eat purely protein and fats, gluconeogenesis comes into it to convert excess protein into glucose which is inefficient at best. Why not just include carbs in your diet to begin with as theyre lower on TEF plus have many other benefits.

I love carbs, I was merely stressing that TOTAL calories will be the main factor in gaining or losing weight

Carbohydrates are important because they provide a major source of energy for the body and also provide dietary fibers...that's a basic answer, but I don't think more than that is really needed

Slim Schaedle
09-17-2007, 01:41 PM
I say mate because im english, think of it as the british term for "friend".

Ya, I lived in Cambridgeshire for 2 years.

:thumbup:

Built
09-17-2007, 01:55 PM
To add to the "yeah, eat some carbs" bandwagon, it's way harder on your liver to use sources other than carbs for energy. Carbs aren't evil, but anything in excess will make you fat. Ideal intake is like 55-60% of your deat being carbs - your body reall doesn't need that much protein - like .8g(or is it oz? shoot.) per kg of bodyweight.

Hard on your liver?

Percentages?

<shudders>

markdk86
09-17-2007, 05:02 PM
Mark, please show me where i bashed Lyle Mcdonald. Also please tell me how carbs are not the ideal source of energy for your body.



I never said carbs are not the ideal source for energy, anyone who took ANY biology course knows this. I'm saying there is more to bodybuilding, muscle building, whatever title you want to give it, than consuming a high carb diet.

There are more benifits from consuming a higher macro of protein, then carbs in a diet. For example, 300g of protein vs 300g of carbs. To add, it is easy to go overboard on carbs because they make you hungry. The American Food Pyramid is a perfect example of that.

Can you succeed in a high carb diet? Yes. But there are numerous studies that will back up a higher protein is more efficent than a diet with higher carbohydrates. I'm not going to provide links to them at the moment because my biology work and human relations paper is more important at the momment.

theravingphycho
09-18-2007, 12:30 AM
So you agree i did not bash Lyle Mcdonald then :)

The food pyramid means jack every BB'er or athlete knows this.

Its not that easy to go overboard on carbs, if you eat sugar itll make you hungry due to the sharp rise and sussequent fall of insulin and blood sugar levels. p+f has a higher satiety rating as it takes lomger to digest and doesnt raise insulin as well as carbs do.

Use wholegrain carb sources and eat more often to eliminate hunger pangs as blood sugar levels will remain stable. What are the benefits from consuming a higher protein to carb ratio, dont want studies just your personal opinion on the matter

For instance can you grow from 6ft 210 at 10% to 230 at the same bf level without the use of a higher carb to protein ratio

Also if you know please could you state what the functions of carbs are in the body and what they are responsible for :)

Built
09-18-2007, 01:53 AM
Use wholegrain carb sources and eat more often to eliminate hunger pangs as blood sugar levels will remain stable.

I know that's what they teach, and I really, REALLY tried to make this work, but I got fat when I tried this. Really fat. Like, "40% bodyfat, cholesterol that was high enough to medicate when I was 33, and on Metformin by 38" fat. I was jogging 10k 3x a week so don't tell me I wasn't trying. I wasn't eating white ANYTHING.

I can NOT eat starches when I'm hungry unless I've just trained and I get to overeat until I sleep. If I do, I simply can't stop eating. Anyone who has experienced profound comfort on a low-carb diet knows what I'm talking about. Some of us just don't handle the starchy stuff very well - even if it's whole grain complex carbs yada yada yada. Hell, come to my place - I have a whole board full of people working their ways through various degrees of this.

theravingphycho
09-18-2007, 03:38 AM
Built i agree with you, some people are overtly carb sensitive and a normal mixed macro approach isnt suitable.

I myself have no issues with it, but i also have to consume carbs and eat 8-9 times a day to control my hypoglycaemia. I have tried low carb approach and i did like the feeling of it but the hypo episodes i kept getting from it were unreal

Many thanks for the invite, would you be so kind as to provide me with a link so i can have a nose round and learn a bit :)

Built
09-18-2007, 09:50 AM
Sure thing. Here's the link (http://www.wannabebigforums.com/www.beyondlowcarb.net).

You likely tried to go low carb with low fat - which is a disaster.

dasfonzie
08-23-2011, 07:38 PM
So why does aspartame retard ketosis? if one was eating a very carb restricted diet + drinking diet sodas, how would their brain function?