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AKMass
09-19-2007, 12:53 PM
Ok so this is a question I'm 99.9% sure has been asked before, but a search for it would take a very long time....Probably a good thing to discuss anyways.

So the question is, on a bulk, how many lbs should you gain before upping your calories? Every 5lbs? 10lbs? There must be a point where you can maximize your gains, I'm just not sure where that point is.

Also, when you hit that point, how much do you increase your calories by?

KingWilder
09-19-2007, 01:03 PM
don't increase until you reach the point where you are no longer gaining weight (assuming you're trying to minimize fat gain)

for example, if you're aiming for 2lbs a week

week 1: 150
week 2: 152
week 3: 154
week 4: 155
week 5: 156
week 6: 156
*at this point you've gained no weight in the past week...you can either keep the cals the same and weigh yourself again after a week (just to be sure) OR you can up the calories

if you're trying to gain one pound a week you need a surplus of 3500 cals a week (500 extra a day)

2 pounds... 7000 cals (1000 extra a day)

Vapour Trails
09-19-2007, 04:21 PM
I hope no one is trying to gain 2 lbs a week.

theravingphycho
09-20-2007, 02:15 AM
monitor your progress

Max 1lb per week gains

When it stops up your cals by 250 each week till you start to gain

Whats your current diet look like

AKMass
09-20-2007, 06:59 AM
Current diet (been on it for a week, weigh day is tomorrow):

2 large bananas (250 cals, 1f, 64c, 3p)
2 "servings" weight gainer, GNC for now, switching soon (940 cals, 8f, 180c, 40p)
3 hard boiled eggs (233 cals, 16f, 2c, 19p)
3 oz. Almonds (492 cals, 43f, 17c, 18p)
Protein shake (120 cals, 2f, 5c, 20p)
4 cups whole milk (495 cals, 20f, 46c, 32p)
2 slices wheat bread (130 cals, 2f, 24c, 5p)
7 deli slices turkey (173 cals, 6f, 2c, 29p)
4 tbsp natty peanut butter (380 cals, 33f, 12c, 16p)
3tbsp olive oil (358 cals, 41f, 0c, 0p)

Daily total: 3570 cals, 171g fat, 352g carbs, 182g protein, for a 24.2/50/25.8 percent breakdown.

Oh and my weight as of last Friday was 145.

theravingphycho
09-20-2007, 08:57 AM
As youve put thinkgs in pence i take it youre from the UK

Ok nice food list but where can i see your meal plan? Where is your PWO shake? What weights regime do you have? Where is the fruit and Veg and there is no EFA content in there

All in all too high in fat too low in protein.

Con
09-20-2007, 09:02 AM
How much more protein does a 145 male need?

brihead301
09-20-2007, 09:04 AM
As youve put thinkgs in pence i take it youre from the UK

Ok nice food list but where can i see your meal plan? Where is your PWO shake? What weights regime do you have? Where is the fruit and Veg and there is no EFA content in there

All in all too high in fat too low in protein.

I don't think that's too high in fat, or too low in protien. Nothing wrong with fat as long as it's good fats. 25% protien is perfect; anymore then that is unnecessary. Carbs are the key, and 50% is ideal. I agree it needs more veggies though.

brihead301
09-20-2007, 09:05 AM
How much more protein does a 145 male need?

145 grams.

AKMass
09-20-2007, 09:28 AM
As youve put thinkgs in pence i take it youre from the UK

I'm from the U.S., and I dunno what pence means.


Ok nice food list but where can i see your meal plan? Where is your PWO shake?

M1: 1 Serving gainer, w/banana, 2 tbsp. natty PB and 1 tbsp olive oil mixed in.
M2: 3 eggs, 1/2 cup spinach.
M3: Turkey or chicken breast sandwich.
M4: 3 oz. almonds, 1 cup broccoli.
M5(pre-workout): protein shake w/ 1 tbsp olive oil
M6(PWO): 1 Serving gainer, w/banana, 2 tbsp. natty PB and 1 tbsp olive oil mixed in. Also, 5g creatine w/dextrose at this point.

I left out the spinach and broccoli in the original list, since they have little caloric/macro value.


What weights regime do you have?

It's a 5x5 routine, 4 day split. Chest/back, arms, shoulders, legs.


Where is the fruit and Veg and there is no EFA content in there

I think the veg thing has been addressed, but as far as fruit, 2 bananas per day isn't enough? Guess it wouldn't really hurt to throw a little more fruit in my shakes though. Also, I might buy some fish oil caps for EFAs.


All in all too high in fat too low in protein.

I was under the impression fats were ok to help get calories in...For protein, I thought pretty much anything over 1g per lb was ok...Oh, maybe you thought my weight was in kg, since you thought I was from the UK?

leetuck
09-20-2007, 09:35 AM
lol... everything is in pence? wtf? the 3p and 40p he mentions is the number of grams of protein.

Teutates
09-20-2007, 11:17 AM
there is no EFA content in there


WTF?

What do you think Olive oil is? Olive oil contains 10% linoleic (omega-6) and 1% alpha-linolenic acids (omega-3). 1 Tbsp of Olive oil gives more than enough of the DRV that the average person needs. There is no way that anybody uses anything more than 3 times that. (he is taking some in Almonds and a tiny bit from PB, so could be 4 times DRV)

FWIW, 1 tbsp of Olive oil is 14g, so that means he is getting 4.2g of Omega-6, and 420 mg of Omega-3. Even conservatively he is getting his DRV.

If he wanted more Omega-6, he could eat some pumpkin seeds (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrientprofile&dbid=117) instead of Almonds (which has almost no Omega-3), in fact Just by eating some ~100g (3/4 cup) of pumpkin seeds a day, you could get 21g of Omega-6 and for Omega-3 he could eat Walnuts, (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrientprofile&dbid=132) which have 2.27g of Omega-3 in only 1/4 a cup.

edit: I see Wikipedia states that 17g a day for Omega-6 and 1.6g a day for Omega-3, which is higher than many more scholarly sources (http://dhaomega3.org/Introduction/intake.htm), and they don't cite their figure, so I am going to say that it is probably a bit high.

In fact it the AMA suggests (http://216.185.112.5/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4632) no more than 3 grams of Omega-3 unless under a physicans care. And also has this to say (http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=1466) about high intakes of Omega-6 fatty acids:



High intakes of omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids, however, have been reported to increase risk of formation of gallstones. In addition, results of animal studies suggest that high intake of polyunsaturated fatty acids (more than 10% of calories) may promote cancer.38 The AHA currently recommends that intake of omega-6 fatty acids be no more than 10% of total calories.

KingWilder
09-20-2007, 11:38 AM
I hope no one is trying to gain 2 lbs a week.

some people don't mind putting on some fat

theravingphycho
09-20-2007, 03:01 PM
WTF?

What do you think Olive oil is? Olive oil contains 10% linoleic (omega-6) and 1% alpha-linolenic acids (omega-3). 1 Tbsp of Olive oil gives more than enough of the DRV that the average person needs. There is no way that anybody uses anything more than 3 times that. (he is taking some in Almonds and a tiny bit from PB, so could be 4 times DRV)

FWIW, 1 tbsp of Olive oil is 14g, so that means he is getting 4.2g of Omega-6, and 420 mg of Omega-3. Even conservatively he is getting his DRV.

If he wanted more Omega-6, he could eat some pumpkin seeds (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrientprofile&dbid=117) instead of Almonds (which has almost no Omega-3), in fact Just by eating some ~100g (3/4 cup) of pumpkin seeds a day, you could get 21g of Omega-6 and for Omega-3 he could eat Walnuts, (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrientprofile&dbid=132) which have 2.27g of Omega-3 in only 1/4 a cup.

edit: I see Wikipedia states that 17g a day for Omega-6 and 1.6g a day for Omega-3, which is higher than many more scholarly sources (http://dhaomega3.org/Introduction/intake.htm), and they don't cite their figure, so I am going to say that it is probably a bit high.

In fact it the AMA suggests (http://216.185.112.5/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4632) no more than 3 grams of Omega-3 unless under a physicans care. And also has this to say (http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=1466) about high intakes of Omega-6 fatty acids:

You need to learn how to add up your figures my man. 10% of the total fat content of EV OO is for omega 6 yes so that would mean that 14g portion would carry 1.4g of Omega 6. You need to get ratios of 1:2 of O3 and O6 so if you eat 10g of O6 then consume 5g of O3

OO is mainly Omega 9 and is 1% omega 3 so to even get 1g of Omega 3 in your diet you would have to consume 100g of olive oil. Bit pointless really IMO

Get some oily fish into the diet or fish oils or even flax seeds or oil to balance out the ratios

theravingphycho
09-20-2007, 03:06 PM
Akmass and Leetuck

I mistook "p" as pence not protein its the english version of cents so egg on my face

Ak: reason i say slightly higher protrin and lower fat is because with your current frame its too many calories and ratios mean jack. Idealld i wouldve said 200g pro/400g carbs and 60-70g of fats

Sorry what i meant to say with regards to frui tis vary it, dont have the same thing every day.

Meal 4 needs a protein source
You need a PPWO meal 1 hour after your PWO shake as well

5x5 is primarily for strength from my experience i would go for something slightly higher rep so perhaps 8x4

Teutates
09-20-2007, 03:37 PM
You need to learn how to add up your figures my man. 10% of the total fat content of EV OO is for omega 6 yes so that would mean that 14g portion would carry 1.4g of Omega 6. You need to get ratios of 1:2 of O3 and O6 so if you eat 10g of O6 then consume 5g of O3


Yes, but his diet consists of 3 Tbsp of Olive oil. My 'figures' are fine. 1:2 of 03 and 06?, did you bother reading my cite or are you spouting off advertisements from the supplement companies? DRV of O3 is only 1.6 grams according to a cited and scholarly reviewed link I provided. That would mean you only need a minimum less than 4g of O6 which is not true. You need more like a 5:1 ratio. And make sure you don't exceed 10% of your calories, unless you want gallstones or a higher risk of cancer.



OO is mainly Omega 9 and is 1% omega 3 so to even get 1g of Omega 3 in your diet you would have to consume 100g of olive oil. Bit pointless really IMO

Get some oily fish into the diet or fish oils or even flax seeds or oil to balance out the ratios

Yes, but 3 TBSP has over 400mg which is 1/4 of the DRV. Why suffer through flax seed though when you can just eat 1/4 cup of walnuts and get all the O3 you need. As cited.

Supplements aren't even needed, Bags of Walnuts are cheaper, and tastier.

theravingphycho
09-20-2007, 03:55 PM
so in your opinion do you think the DRV is correct?

Heck DRV of protein is under 100g yet we dont seem to adhere to it

Fat was bad for you now its ok to eat it, now carbs are the enemy.

Hwo do you establish a DRV for a bodybuilder whoc 250lbs and one whos 150lbs. You cant theyre guidelines not to be taken as gospel. Funny the inuits consume tons of it and not one case of heart problems among them. Its how the discovery of O3 importance in diet come to light originally

Teutates
09-20-2007, 04:31 PM
so in your opinion do you think the DRV is correct?

In this case, yes. Why would bodybuilders need more? Protein is understandable to some degree (I think a majority of BBers use more than is necessary, but protein is easy and cheap to get and has no real serious side effects), as bodybuilders build more muscle. O6 in particular is used by the body in cell membranes and there doesn't seem to be an increased demand for it with extra activity, though going above the DRV can't hurt. There have been no studies that I am aware of that has offered any evidence that O6 is needed in higher demand with an increased activity level, let alone in muscle development. O3 on the other hand has been shown in studies that 1% of total calories was needed (so yes, 250lb BB use more, but not more than twice the amount assuming you are eating 4000 calories a day), and those same studies showed that increasing the percentage showed no benefits.



Fat was bad for you now its ok to eat it, now carbs are the enemy.


No respectable nutritionalist is going to say that carbs are the enemy. Don't confuse cold hard science with the latest fad. Excess fat is bad for you, still. Certain kinds of fat are even in moderate doses. Carbs being "bad" for you is just a silly fad. One that will pass, I hope.



Hwo do you establish a DRV for a bodybuilder whoc 250lbs and one whos 150lbs. You cant theyre guidelines not to be taken as gospel.

By using a percentage of calories, just as protein amounts increase on a scale dependent upon size, so should your other micro and macro-nutrients. Those that matter what size you are anyway.

edit: Oh, so I'm not misinterpreted, I am not a dietitian or anything, I just happened to have written a rather lengthy paper on Linoleic and Linolenic acids when I took Biochem a couple years ago.

AKMass
09-21-2007, 07:02 AM
Well apparently I'm eating too many calories.... My goal was to put on about a lb a week. Last Friday I weighed 144.75, today I weighed in at 149. 4 lbs is ridiculous, how many daily calories should I cut? Currently at 3500/day.

theravingphycho
09-21-2007, 07:32 AM
like i said before you consume too much dietary fat. Drop it down to 60g. Thatll shave off 540 cals every day and should make sure your gains stabilise somewhat.

Also check your measurements every two weeks

Sort your diet out as well. Make sure you have a protein source with every meal and try and split up everything int mixed macro meals as well

Unreal
09-21-2007, 08:32 AM
60g is a bit low. Common recommendation here is .5g/lb. So at 145lbs that is alittle over 70g of fat.

AK, initial weight gain can be from water weight, stool, and food in your intestines. I would stick it out for one more week and see what you gain. If you really put on 5lbs of tissue that is 2500 cals over maintence a day which means you maintain on 1000 cals which is not correct. Stick with 3500 for one more week and see how much you put on.

theravingphycho
09-21-2007, 11:10 AM
Unreal it depends if the kid is a carb burner or a fat burner at rest hence why i suggested he drop it for a week or so just to see what his reaction would be

Im a carb burner and eating too much dietary fat makes me fat but i can smash away the carbs nonstop and barely put on anything

AKMass
09-21-2007, 11:36 AM
like i said before you consume too much dietary fat. Drop it down to 60g. Thatll shave off 540 cals every day and should make sure your gains stabilise somewhat.

Also check your measurements every two weeks

Sort your diet out as well. Make sure you have a protein source with every meal and try and split up everything int mixed macro meals as well

Did you really mean drop it down TO 60g of fat, or drop 60g of fat off my current diet? Dropping my diet down to 60g of fat per day wouldn't shave 540 cals, it'd shave 999 cals off...

theravingphycho
09-21-2007, 11:39 AM
no drop it by 60g to save 540 cals as its got 9 cals per gram

My apologies i shouldve worded it slightly better :)

Unreal
09-21-2007, 12:13 PM
That is good. I thought you meant 60g total. that would still give him 111g which is more then enough.

AKMass
09-24-2007, 07:01 AM
Well apparently I'm eating too many calories.... My goal was to put on about a lb a week. Last Friday I weighed 144.75, today I weighed in at 149. 4 lbs is ridiculous, how many daily calories should I cut? Currently at 3500/day.

Weird, this morning I weighed myself, and the weight came out to be 146.5 lbs. Friday I weighed 149... So I lost 2.5 lbs over the weekend? Granted, I didn't follow my diet to a T over the weekend, but 2.5 lbs seems a little extreme. What's goin on?

MMEI
09-24-2007, 07:45 AM
Wawa!

theravingphycho
09-24-2007, 08:09 AM
Its water loss mate

Weigh yourself once a week only!

KingWilder
09-24-2007, 09:32 AM
:withstupi:
anymore than once a week and you'll drive yourself crazy as you've already shown