PDA

View Full Version : Everyone should watch this interview



RhodeHouse
09-23-2007, 10:05 AM
If you haven't watched the Justin Harris interview on EliteFTS.com, you need to. For everyone that over-analyzes everything, this keeps it simple. And, he's not a powerlifter. He's a bodybuilder, so this is right up your alley. Hopefully this sheds some light on how SIMPLE eating should be. Sounds a lot like what one bloated powerlifter on this site says all the time - just not as eloquently.

Go to the video section on EliteFTS. The title of the post is "Justin Harris interview. I believe the date is 9/16

KoolDrew
09-23-2007, 10:52 AM
Perhaps you could supply a link? I can't seem to find it on their site. I found a bunch of videos on youtube though:
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=Justin+Harris+interview&search=Search

Any of those what you are referring to? I watched the "Starting diet" one and I completely agree. However, it also says "Cutting body fat for those over 20%." When you're just starting and are around that body fat percentage basically any approach will work. It's not until you start getting to the lower body fat levels where things aren't as simple.

VikingWarlord
09-23-2007, 11:23 AM
Dude, you seem like a decent guy, but have been very confrontational here of late.

To play devil's advocate for a minute here, have you actually ever been or attempted to get super lean while preserving LBM and can vouch for how simple it is from first hand experience? Have you ever attempted the more complex nutritional plans that some people use to compare how you progress?

If the answer is no, then perhaps you might consider that once you hit a certain level, it gets exponentially more complicated. I realize you're a powerlifter and have no need or desire to get that lean, so may it be possible that what works to get what you want probably isn't going to work for non-powerlifters?

I guess, to put it in non-eloquent terms, if you ain't in it, get out of it.

Just another perspective.

Chubrock
09-23-2007, 11:38 AM
Dude, you seem like a decent guy, but have been very confrontational here of late.

To play devil's advocate for a minute here, have you actually ever been or attempted to get super lean while preserving LBM and can vouch for how simple it is from first hand experience? Have you ever attempted the more complex nutritional plans that some people use to compare how you progress?

If the answer is no, then perhaps you might consider that once you hit a certain level, it gets exponentially more complicated. I realize you're a powerlifter and have no need or desire to get that lean, so may it be possible that what works to get what you want probably isn't going to work for non-powerlifters?

I guess, to put it in non-eloquent terms, if you ain't in it, get out of it.

Just another perspective.




I can't vouch for Rhodes, but I can vouch for myself. I followed UD2.0 there for awhile. I cut down to a decent bf %. I don't think complicated diets are needed until you start getting down to sub double digit body fat. As you near competition form, and I'm sure Rhodes will agree, the little stuff will start to matter but for the majority of people all this focus on minutia isn't needed. I've stayed just as lean following a simple set of guidelines as I did when I was following UD2.0.

Con
09-23-2007, 03:26 PM
Perhaps you could supply a link? I can't seem to find it on their site.



:withstupi:

VikingWarlord
09-23-2007, 06:57 PM
I can't vouch for Rhodes, but I can vouch for myself. I followed UD2.0 there for awhile. I cut down to a decent bf %. I don't think complicated diets are needed until you start getting down to sub double digit body fat. As you near competition form, and I'm sure Rhodes will agree, the little stuff will start to matter but for the majority of people all this focus on minutia isn't needed. I've stayed just as lean following a simple set of guidelines as I did when I was following UD2.0.

I've read the book, and UD2 isn't simple by any stretch of the imagination, which is why some people refer to it as killing an anthill with an atom bomb...so I'm not sure what point you're trying to get across.

If you're not looking to get to single digit BF or don't really care that much about composition at all, then yes, it can (and should) be kept as simple as possible until things stop working, but saying something like "eating should be simple" is throwing a pretty big blanket over a lot of little situations. Generalizations never work. That's all I'm talking about.

devo
09-23-2007, 07:18 PM
this the only relavent link i could find.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHn871mqM-w

not much of an interview if you ask me.

Chubrock
09-23-2007, 08:17 PM
If you're not looking to get to single digit BF or don't really care that much about composition at all, then yes, it can (and should) be kept as simple as possible until things stop working, but saying something like "eating should be simple" is throwing a pretty big blanket over a lot of little situations. Generalizations never work. That's all I'm talking about.



I agree. However, what I think Rhode's is saying, is that for the vast majority of people things really are that simple. There are few people that are at a level in which they need to focus on the smallest details. Those that are at that level, probably wouldn't be making posts in the diet section.

VikingWarlord
09-23-2007, 08:27 PM
I agree. However, what I think Rhode's is saying, is that for the vast majority of people things really are that simple. There are few people that are at a level in which they need to focus on the smallest details. Those that are at that level, probably wouldn't be making posts in the diet section.

Based on some of the things he's been saying lately, I'm not entirely sure that's what he's saying. His posts have been purposefully confrontational lately and the intent hasn't been entirely clear.

If he is referring to "normal" people rather than people looking for uber-leanness, I wholeheartedly agree that the minute details won't really mean much. If it's a blanket generalization intended to cover all levels, it's going to be hard to find anyone that's had success dropping to single digits with the KISS methodology.

RhodeHouse
09-23-2007, 11:20 PM
Obviously, if you want to compete or drop below single digits, you need to sweat the details. However, most on this board, sweat the details before they understand the basics. When I read bulking techniques, I keep hearing about less than 1lb per week, add 500 calories to your diet. If you don't gain, add 500 more. It's too much sweating of the details. I know 2 competitive bodybuilders. Not IFBB pro's but they compete. And, they're not skinny. I've asked them about heir bulking phases and they both say the same stuff. Eat until you pop. Gain as much as possible so you can move more weight. More weight lifted = bigger muscles built. Sorry, but that hasn't changed no matter what guru you're reading.

What I'm saying is, don't over-complicate a simple thing. I'm not talking sub 10%. I'm talking the basics of eating, gaining, and cutting. It's not that hard.

And yes, I have been in single digits. I was 250lbs at 9% when I played football. And yes, at that time I cared more about how I looked then how I performed. It wasn't that hard. Didn't have to give up beer, Mexican food, or anything. I worked my ass off in the weightroom and in conditioning. Never counted my protein or anything like that.

Last summer, I tried to get below 10% at 290lbs. I made it to the high 11's before I decided that I was too "small" and needed to get big again. I cleaned things up for about 10 weeks. It wasn't that hard.

I ate 6-10x per day
Did cardio 3x per week
trained as usual - 3x per week - same template

I cut out Gatorade, soda, and junk foods like chips and cookies. Other than that, I ate what I wanted to. If I ate like ****, I made sure to up the cardio the next day or trained a little bit longer.

To step on stage and be crazy lean, it does take more. But, at 200lbs, it ain't that hard to be lean. Sometimes, good old-fashioned hard work IS the answer. Not calorie counting and measuring and all that stuff. For the beginner to intermediate who is gaining/cutting - it's not terribly complicated. For the person stepping on stage, it's a much harder process.

You may take my posts as confrontational, and that's fine. But the KISS method does work.

As far as the link, gp to EliteFTS
click on Q&A
click on videos
Justin Harris interview (5 parts)

Don't be lazy lookers

theravingphycho
09-24-2007, 01:04 AM
Mr Rhodes makes a very good point. Issue with number crunching is theyre all from a universal template and last time i checked no one is the same

Eat until you start to gain, if you get fat rejig yur diet and look at portion sizes etc. To cut eat the same healthy clean foods and drop the portion sizes down till you start to lose BF, incorporate cardio into your routines and viola 10-11% BF

Anything below this then start getting pedantic, but most trainers who carry some muscle look pretty damn good at 10%

Look at the greatest bodybuilders of the 70's and the 80's, they didnt have what we have today and still managed just fine. Serge Nubret set standards that have yet to be equalled to this day IMO

Sensei
09-24-2007, 05:28 AM
Great post Rhodes.

I'm not bashing anyone when I say this now, but after having argument after argument, I really think that some people do need "complicated", for whatever reason... Maybe the process of logging in every calorie and calculating caloric burn is soothing, or they are very analytic people, or they are just bored, I don't know, but many just don't feel like they'll progress without keeping records. I'm the same way about keeping training logs, I guess.

Whatever it takes I guess.

RhodeHouse
09-24-2007, 09:20 PM
Very good point, Sensei. I'm weird like that. As soon as I stopped keeping track of things, all my gains started to come. I know I keep a training log on the site, but I used to write EVERYTHING down. Bodyweight, every weight I lifted, what I ate, whether or not me and my girl were getting along or fighting, the day I came out of the closet. You name it, and it was in my
log.

The most important thing to me is, whatever gets you to your goal. For some, that may be not worrying about the small stuff until the big stuff is in line. For others, the anal life may be your calling. Hopefully, whatever your style, you achieve your goals.

sharkall2003
09-24-2007, 09:44 PM
I've had more trouble with complicated than I did with simple. I was fairly lean at 196 when I was 17. Probably around 12%. Really, I lost a lot of weight by doing just what Rhodes said: trained hard, and did cardio, and ate 90% clean. Most of the time I would have oatmeal, whey protein, chicken, tuna, peanut butter and some milk. However, if I had a nacho with cheese once a week for sanity reasons.

Sensei
09-24-2007, 09:59 PM
Yeah, I think we are in the minority here. Obviously, it's my position that most beginners will stick with simple, but some need complicated. It's kind of like pricing - sometimes more expensive attracts more buyers even if there isn't more value...

sharkall2003
09-24-2007, 10:03 PM
Yeah, I think we are in the minority here. Obviously, it's my position that most beginners will stick with simple, but some need complicated. It's kind of like pricing - sometimes more expensive attracts more buyers even if there isn't more value...

Even then, the majority of the people are saying that you need to just Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) and you'll get reasonably low. 10% is nothing to be ashamed of, and I think on this board it's out there to be well below that. I've never been below 12%, so I couldn't tell you what it takes, but I know if I would have stayed with my diet and a better routine I would have been able to hit 10%. And to get lower than that I think it would take some work.

Con
09-25-2007, 07:27 AM
Yeah, I think we are in the minority here. Obviously, it's my position that most beginners will stick with simple, but some need complicated. It's kind of like pricing - sometimes more expensive attracts more buyers even if there isn't more value...

IF you dont mind, what exactly do you mean by complicated?

I just think that counting calories, especially now that its routine and takes very little time, would actually be worth it. Or are you talking about training more than eating?

Sensei
09-25-2007, 09:45 AM
How am I not being clear? Look, if you like counting calories, more power to you. I think I've explained my position well enough - if you don't agree, fine.

Outshine
09-25-2007, 10:19 AM
Some people train/eat for looks and overall health. Others train/eat to be able to lift heavy stuff. There is a difference.

For that first group, counting calories and tracking exactly how many calories you are above/below maintenance is quite important. The same is true for overall health, which is why paying attention to fat, protein and carb intake and the types of foods these nutrients are coming from (mcdonald's fat vs walnut fat, for example) is pretty damn important as well.

To that other group, not so much.

Sensei
09-25-2007, 10:22 AM
Let's not start again, shall we?

You can eat for health and looks without "counting calories and tracking exactly how many calories you are above/below maintenance"...

Outshine
09-25-2007, 10:28 AM
Let's not start again, shall we?

You can eat for health and looks without "counting calories and tracking exactly how many calories you are above/below maintenance"...

Didn't say you couldn't. Did say it could be quite helpful to do so... which is 100% true.

Not looking to start anything, just adding my thoughts to a post on a forum.

Sensei
09-25-2007, 10:54 AM
Didn't say you couldn't. Did say it could be quite helpful to do so... which is 100% true.Well, yeah you kinda did... You said it was important when it's pretty clear that the thread is saying it isn't.

No one has said that eating well isn't important btw.

Not looking to start anything, just adding my thoughts to a post on a forum.How about just taking comfort in the fact that most people in bodybuilding forums generally agree with your take on the matter and allowing others to have a different point of view without it constantly being knitpicked to death?

Outshine
09-25-2007, 11:48 AM
Well, yeah you kinda did... You said it was important when it's pretty clear that the thread is saying it isn't.

Alright, I'm sorry, but no. I didn't kind of say anything. I said the exact words I said. Saying something is "quite important" is different than saying something is "is completely and utterly required." You CAN look good and be healthy without tracking calorie, protein, carb or fat intake. I don't disagree with that at all. However, for someone with those goals, it would be a whole lot more helpful if they did.

That was the only thing I said, and the only point I tried to make. Anyone who disagrees with that is nuts and just looking to argue.


How about just taking comfort in the fact that most people in bodybuilding forums generally agree with your take on the matter and allowing others to have a different point of view without it constantly being knitpicked to death?

So trying to discuss your take on diet in another thread and then posting a reply in this one is constantly knitpicking it to death?

And really, the allowing others to have a different point a view comment should be directed at you, not me. I understand your point of view. I don't disagree with your more simple approach to eating at all.

What I do disagree with are your comments about people only "complicating" things because they make an effort to track their calorie intake. To a powerlifter, maybe all they need is to eat a lot and lift heavy. To someone who never wants to get even half as fat as the average powerlifter, all of these "complications" are in fact quite helpful.

To me, your idea of just eating well without ever tracking anything is what I'd consider complicating things. We have sites like fitday that allow you to track every single thing you eat every single day in a matter of minutes. You can know exactly how much over/under maintenance you are. You can know exactly what your protein, carb and fat intake is. For someone with the sole goal of looking good and being healthy, NOT putting something like this to use and just blindly eating is complicating things.

There actually are some really complicated diets/workouts out there that really do complicate things and really aren't at all necessary for most people. I don't disagree with that.

However, when strictly talking about someone with the goal of just looking good and being healthy... saying that taking a couple of minutes to make sure you're getting your 1g per pound of protein per day, or that you're 300 calories above maintenance instead of 700, or that most of your fat intake is coming from healthy fats rather than unhealthy ones, etc. is doing nothing but complicating things is, well, wrong... and the only thing you've said that I have ever disagreed with at any point.

Chubrock
09-25-2007, 12:44 PM
You can't calculate everything...

Isaac Wilkins
09-25-2007, 01:02 PM
If you want to get real nitpicky, you do realize that all of the standards you're using are simply average values, right?

How do you think they figured out how much protein, fat, etc was in a T-bone? They burnt it. They burnt a bunch of them. Then they used a mean. That's what you read when you go to Fitday, Corinne Netzger's book, or the USDA Database.

Do you think that a T-bone from cow A is the same as from cow B? Awfully close, but not quite. Even if you weigh it out, it won't be exact.

Were those oats grown in SE Kansas or NE Kansas? You'd better know.

Other than pissing in the cornflakes (Nebraska corn, baby) of those who make this too complicated, what I'm saying is to sweat the basics and then move on to the details.

Con
09-25-2007, 01:08 PM
How am I not being clear? Look, if you like counting calories, more power to you. I think I've explained my position well enough - if you don't agree, fine.

Definitely not saying that you are unclear, but it seems like counting calories was the only thing I seem to remember you pointing out.

Im not trying to start anything because, above all I post here to learn. The last thing I am looking for in confrontation.

Sensei
09-25-2007, 02:54 PM
Alright, I'm sorry, but no. I didn't kind of say anything. I said the exact words I said. Saying something is "quite important" is different than saying something is "is completely and utterly required." You CAN look good and be healthy without tracking calorie, protein, carb or fat intake. I don't disagree with that at all. However, for someone with those goals, it would be a whole lot more helpful if they did.More helpful than what? eating good foods and smaller or bigger portions? exercising more or getting more rest?

What I do disagree with are your comments about people only "complicating" things because they make an effort to track their calorie intake. To a powerlifter, maybe all they need is to eat a lot and lift heavy. To someone who never wants to get even half as fat as the average powerlifter, all of these "complications" are in fact quite helpful.

To me, your idea of just eating well without ever tracking anything is what I'd consider complicating things. We have sites like fitday that allow you to track every single thing you eat every single day in a matter of minutes. You can know exactly how much over/under maintenance you are. You can know exactly what your protein, carb and fat intake is. For someone with the sole goal of looking good and being healthy, NOT putting something like this to use and just blindly eating is complicating things.

There actually are some really complicated diets/workouts out there that really do complicate things and really aren't at all necessary for most people. I don't disagree with that.

However, when strictly talking about someone with the goal of just looking good and being healthy... saying that taking a couple of minutes to make sure you're getting your 1g per pound of protein per day, or that you're 300 calories above maintenance instead of 700, or that most of your fat intake is coming from healthy fats rather than unhealthy ones, etc. is doing nothing but complicating things is, well, wrong... and the only thing you've said that I have ever disagreed with at any point.I had a hard time reading through all of this, but, let me get this straight, you're saying that my approach is complicated? btw, I'm done with this thread too now, so post away Outshine because I know you'll have to have the last word...

sharkall2003
09-25-2007, 02:56 PM
I think it's very over rated to calculated everything out. Calculating everything has only made me have less progress. I've I'm hungry I'll have a little bit of carbs and some protein. If I'm not hungry, I won't have anything. I have a big breakfast, and some food before bed. It's quite the simple approach, but it works for me and I like it.

RhodeHouse
09-25-2007, 03:11 PM
Outshine - you've outshown your ignorance with another "fat powerlifter" comment. All you skinny guys on here who think all powerlifters, including a lot of the real big boys, are fat display your ignorance proudly. I've made this statement before. If all powerlifters are fat, then, IMO, all bodybuilders are gay (and I don't mean happy). It's sad that anorexic looking Abercrombie models are the ones that you seem to want to emmulate.

I hope some of you guys got some ideas or at least a new point of view to check out from watching the interview. It's great stuff.

Outshine
09-25-2007, 03:17 PM
More helpful than what? eating good foods and smaller or bigger portions? exercising more or getting more rest?

I am saying that, for someone whose sole goal is looks/health, KNOWING how many calories they eat per day is more helpful than NOT knowing how many calories they eat per day.

I am speaking English, right? And you speak English too, correct? If the answer to both of these questions is yes, then, for the life of me, I have no idea why you're not understanding what I'm saying.



I had a hard time reading through all of this, but, let me get this straight, you're saying that my approach is complicated? btw, I'm done with this thread too now, so post away Outshine because I know you'll have to have the last word...

Ok, then it's not me. All of this time in both of these threads I've been thinking it's me who can't understand you. It's the other way around. I type things, they come up in polite, discussion-ish ways that present a clear statement or opinion of some sort, and then, by the time it gets to you, it's the complete opposite.

You're saying counting calories only complicates things and are implying that tracking any part of your diet is a borderline waste of time.

I'm saying counting calories and tracking certain aspects of your diet can be quite helpful, especially for someone whose sole goal is looking good and being healthy.

It's at this point the insanity begins as you for some reason become defensive and say stuff like "I'm done with this thread too now, so post away Outshine because I know you'll have to have the last word..."

What ****ing planet am I on here?

sharkall2003
09-25-2007, 03:20 PM
Outshine: If you eat natural peanut butter in moderation, have lean meats, veggies and a little startch with some other carbs you'll be fine. You're really putting too much thought into it.

Outshine
09-25-2007, 03:26 PM
Outshine: If you eat natural peanut butter in moderation, have lean meats, veggies and a little startch with some other carbs you'll be fine. You're really putting too much thought into it.

What exactly am I putting too much thought into? The only thing I've said in this entire thread is that paying attention to your calorie intake is helpful.

Outshine
09-25-2007, 03:34 PM
Outshine - you've outshown your ignorance with another "fat powerlifter" comment. All you skinny guys on here who think all powerlifters, including a lot of the real big boys, are fat display your ignorance proudly. I've made this statement before. If all powerlifters are fat, then, IMO, all bodybuilders are gay (and I don't mean happy). It's sad that anorexic looking Abercrombie models are the ones that you seem to want to emmulate.

I hope some of you guys got some ideas or at least a new point of view to check out from watching the interview. It's great stuff.

This interview is directed at guys who are above 20% BF. How is above 20% BF not fat?

I'm not a bodybuilder and I'm not a powerlifter. I'm a guy who first walked into a gym a few years ago at 5'10 weighing 120lbs. My end goal was to be 180lbs at a similar BF and look good, with being strong/athletic/healthy as the wonderful side effects of that goal.

We obviously don't have the same goal. However, making a comment like "It's sad that anorexic looking Abercrombie models are the ones that you seem to want to emmulate" is just too ******ed to even warrant a response.

RhodeHouse
09-25-2007, 06:33 PM
If you think 20% BF is fat, you have a very screwed up view on fat. The average for men younger than 30, should be somewhere between 18-24%.

My post has nothing to do with my goals vs. your goals. The interview has great, solid advice in it for people that worry too much about somethings that they don't need to worry about.

Sweat the small stuff. Go ahead. I don't really care. This was directed at people who may be open enough for a new point of view.

Keoni
09-25-2007, 07:01 PM
Justin Harris mentions 4 things in video #4 or #5 - protein, creatine, ?branch (chain?) amino acid, and ?lutamine. Can anyone help me with these "?" please?

Outshine
09-25-2007, 07:25 PM
If you think 20% BF is fat, you have a very screwed up view on fat. The average for men younger than 30, should be somewhere between 18-24%.

If you think 20% is lean, you have a insanely screwed up view of lean. The average male doesn't see abs until around 10-12%. And comparing anything we discuss to the "average" male (who is a fat unhealthy out of shape pathetic human being) is a complete joke and does nothing to help whatever point you are trying to make.



My post has nothing to do with my goals vs. your goals. The interview has great, solid advice in it for people that worry too much about somethings that they don't need to worry about.

Yeah, the interview has solid advice, I agree. Eat lean protein with each meal. Oatmeal and brown rice are good sources of carbs. All wonderful stuff. But, and the guy being interviewed says it himself, everything he is saying is directed at guys looking to go from "30% bodyfat to 15%." It's directed at people who currently eat nothing but **** all day long. Yes, these people can just replace their fast food meals with some grilled chicken and brown rice and they'll get some good results.

What you seem to not realize is that there are people out there who already eat cleanly, and aren't planning on coming too close to 20%, let alone 30%. Some stay between 8% and 15% because they always want to look at least somewhat okay, and they give half a crap about their health.

And, the guy in the video says it himself, no one needs to sweat the small stuff to go from 30% to 15%. BUT, he goes on to say that below 15% is a different story. And either way, my point isn't that you NEED to "sweat the small stuff," it's that doing so can be quite helpful.



Sweat the small stuff. Go ahead. I don't really care. This was directed at people who may be open enough for a new point of view.

What new point of view? That replacing crap with clean food will help someone who is 30% BF lose weight? Not really groundbreaking stuff.

My only point here is that the small stuff as you call it, stuff like paying some attention to your calorie intake, is not anywhere near the useless waste of time some of you are making it out to be. It's actually the opposite.

Holto
09-25-2007, 09:06 PM
If you think 20% BF is fat, you have a very screwed up view on fat.

There is not a bodybuilder in the world that would be happy at 20%.

The only way bodybuilder who knows what they are doing would ever allow themselves to get that fat is at the end of a long bulk. At that point they would start cutting to a respectable bodyfat.

Chubrock
09-25-2007, 09:16 PM
My only point here is that the small stuff as you call it, stuff like paying some attention to your calorie intake, is not anywhere near the useless waste of time some of you are making it out to be. It's actually the opposite.

Why do you bother counting calories? You can't possibly account for everything.

Sensei
09-25-2007, 09:46 PM
I tried to stay away... I really did.

If you think 20% is lean, you have a insanely screwed up view of lean. The average male doesn't see abs until around 10-12%. And comparing anything we discuss to the "average" male (who is a fat unhealthy out of shape pathetic human being) is a complete joke and does nothing to help whatever point you are trying to make.Outshine,
Your perspective is based on your own experience as a "120lb guy who wanted to be 180".There is a world of difference between a 150lb guy who is 20% bodyfat and 300lb gorilla with 20% bodyfat - it's not just a question of math...

Yeah, the interview has solid advice, I agree. Eat lean protein with each meal. Oatmeal and brown rice are good sources of carbs. All wonderful stuff. But, and the guy being interviewed says it himself, everything he is saying is directed at guys looking to go from "30% bodyfat to 15%." It's directed at people who currently eat nothing but **** all day long. Yes, these people can just replace their fast food meals with some grilled chicken and brown rice and they'll get some good results.
You ARE being argumentative because we all know that's not why Rhodes posted the thread. There is such a thing as strawman rhetoric that it'd be nice if you avoided.

What you seem to not realize is that there are people out there who already eat cleanly, and aren't planning on coming too close to 20%, let alone 30%. Some stay between 8% and 15% because they always want to look at least somewhat okay, and they give half a crap about their health.I'm sure that Rhodes does indeed realize this...

If people ate as cleanly as they claimed and actually got off their asses to do something other than take a dump, shuffle to the car, and lift once in a while, they'd be A LOT leaner with or without FitDay. It's hard to believe I know, but people did actually manage to gain and lose weight before nutritional information was on every package of food and before the internet...

What new point of view? That replacing crap with clean food will help someone who is 30% BF lose weight? Not really groundbreaking stuff.Here you are just being an a-hole. Rhodes is posting an alternative point of view... For the newbie who is overwhelmed with routines and diets, it very well could be groundbreaking.

My only point here is that the small stuff as you call it, stuff like paying some attention to your calorie intake, is not anywhere near the useless waste of time some of you are making it out to be. It's actually the opposite.You've repeatedly made your point abundantly clear. What do you want?

You know, it's great you've made some progress and if you did it one way, fine. Rhodes is an elite powerlifter, which obviously means jacks**t to you, but it is an amazing accomplishment. Maybe you could actually learn something from his perspective even if you don't agree with or choose to follow it.

smalls
09-26-2007, 12:15 AM
When I read bulking techniques, I keep hearing about less than 1lb per week, add 500 calories to your diet. If you don't gain, add 500 more. It's too much sweating of the details. I know 2 competitive bodybuilders.

IMO this is about as basic as it gets and it's exactly how I diet or bulk and exactly how I would suggest others do the same. If thats too complicated then that is just insane to me. If you cant count up your calories for the day in 5 or 10 minutes then I guess that could be too much, but I can, so I do.

For me to eat more calories than I burn I have to track cals, so with eating less. I dont leave any guesswork to this. Why would I? I know how the body works and I know how to add. I combine those skills into counting calories and I make progress. For me that's as simple or as complicated as it needs to be.


And I agree with sensei in that some people need to overthink and analyze. I really dont think i'm one of those people but I do need to KNOW that what I have done today is moving me in one direction or another and eyeballing it just isnt good enough for me. Just like you record your workouts (as do I) I also record my daily diet for those same reasons.

Outshine
09-26-2007, 08:38 AM
There is not a bodybuilder in the world that would be happy at 20%.

The only way bodybuilder who knows what they are doing would ever allow themselves to get that fat is at the end of a long bulk. At that point they would start cutting to a respectable bodyfat.

Thank god some other sane person is reading this thread. What you're saying isn't just true for bodybuilders... it's true for anyone who just doesn't want to look like ****... and for most of the planet, 20% bodyfat on a male looks like ****.


I tried to stay away... I really did.
Outshine,
Your perspective is based on your own experience as a "120lb guy who wanted to be 180".There is a world of difference between a 150lb guy who is 20% bodyfat and 300lb gorilla with 20% bodyfat - it's not just a question of math...

As is yours, and that's part of the problem. You're making broad statements that don't apply to a broad range of people. To you, counting your calories may be a waste of time. To me and others like me, it's not. Is it something we MUST do? No. Is it something that can be very helpful to do? Yes. And that, once again, is my only point. Why people are arguing with it, I have absolutely no idea.



You ARE being argumentative because we all know that's not why Rhodes posted the thread. There is such a thing as strawman rhetoric that it'd be nice if you avoided.
I'm sure that Rhodes does indeed realize this...

I'm reading a thread on a forum. I see someone post an opinion that I do not agree with. I then post a reply stating my own opinion. What should have taken place is a discussion. What you turned it into is an argument.

You strike me as someone who isn't disagreed with often, especially about training/diet related stuff. And, rightfully so. As I've admitted to you before and will gladly admit again, you know 10 times more about all of this stuff than I do. You're one of the maybe 5 people on this forum who I am ALWAYS sure to read. So, imagine my surprise when you post something that I have a different opinion about. What am I to do? So, I post my opinion in hopes of making a point, starting a discussing, seeing what you think, etc. etc. and you automatically become defensive, misunderstand/ignore/reword everything I'm saying, and then threaten to stop posting in the thread.


You've repeatedly made your point abundantly clear. What do you want?

I want you to show some sign that you've actually understood it. However, judging by this next quote of yours, you still haven't... or are just looking to argue with me.


It's hard to believe I know, but people did actually manage to gain and lose weight before nutritional information was on every package of food and before the internet...

I'M NOT SAYING YOU MUST TRACK YOUR CALORIE INTAKE IN ORDER TO LOSE OR GAIN WEIGHT. Holy crap. I'm saying that for a lot of people, doing so is very helpful, rather than the complete waste of time that only complicates things, which is what you are making it out to be. That's my one and only point here. You state that I've made this point abundantly clear, and yet you go on to completely misunderstand it once again.


Here you are just being an a-hole. Rhodes is posting an alternative point of view... For the newbie who is overwhelmed with routines and diets, it very well could be groundbreaking.

What are you, the a-hole police? I was talking to Rhodes, and I agree, I did make a semi-sarcastic a-hole remark. However, it was done to match the equally a-holey remark Rhodes made towards me in the post I was replying to. Act like a dick towards me, and my first natural reaction is to act like a dick back. Sorry, but he started it. :rolleyes:


You know, it's great you've made some progress and if you did it one way, fine. Rhodes is an elite powerlifter, which obviously means jacks**t to you, but it is an amazing accomplishment. Maybe you could actually learn something from his perspective even if you don't agree with or choose to follow it.

I completely respect and am in awe of Rhodes' powerlifting accomplishments. Honestly, I am. They just aren't MY goals. I also agree that I can learn from him. However, when someone implies that something so quick and simple as keeping track of their calorie intake or how much protein they eat per day or something similar is nothing but a waste of time for everyone, which I know it not to be, I will make it known. It may be true for the elite powerlifter (I wouldn't know, I'm not an elite powerlifter), but it's not true for me and anyone with similar goals as me. For us, it's useful. Required? No. Useful and helpful? yes.

Which, once again, is my only point. How this lead to a bunch of people arguing with me, I just don't know.

Sensei
09-26-2007, 09:15 AM
For us, it's useful. Required? No. Useful and helpful? yes.

Which, once again, is my only point. How this lead to a bunch of people arguing with me, I just don't know.I'm sure you could analyze the discourse in this thread and the other one and figure it out if you wanted...

I have disagreements with people here, like Built, Anthony, and Maki once in a while and rarely does it get like this - it usually just ends with us disagreeing and not posting or PMing further. If you throw your cyber-hands up in the air and exclaim "WHAAAAT?.... IS EVERYONE HERE CRAZY!?", then you can expect people to react...

RhodeHouse
09-26-2007, 05:42 PM
IMO this is about as basic as it gets and it's exactly how I diet or bulk and exactly how I would suggest others do the same. If thats too complicated then that is just insane to me. If you cant count up your calories for the day in 5 or 10 minutes then I guess that could be too much, but I can, so I do.

For me to eat more calories than I burn I have to track cals, so with eating less. I dont leave any guesswork to this. Why would I? I know how the body works and I know how to add. I combine those skills into counting calories and I make progress. For me that's as simple or as complicated as it needs to be.


And I agree with sensei in that some people need to overthink and analyze. I really dont think i'm one of those people but I do need to KNOW that what I have done today is moving me in one direction or another and eyeballing it just isnt good enough for me. Just like you record your workouts (as do I) I also record my daily diet for those same reasons.

Before I started playing football in college, I was about 190lbs. In 2 years I went up to 250lbs without Fitday or counting calories. AMAZING! My BF was very low, as stated earlier. Once I got into powerlifting, i went from 250-315 without, you guessed it, Fitday or counting calories.

If you guys wanna count away - go for it. Have fun. I don't really care. If you think 20% is fat, you're view of fat is very skewed. And, that's cool. I don't care. You calculate, you draw pie charts, break out the slide rule - have at it. When I want to lose weight I'll just eat less and exercise more. This almost makes me want to drop down to 300 and get down around 10-12% just to prove how easy it can be. I'm not sure if I care enough or not. Right now, my fat ass is on a mission that few of you could ever understand.

Sensei - you and I are strangly alike in our views. Good times.

And, for the guy asking about what Justin Harris talked about - it was protein powder, branched chain amino acids, L-luecine, and creatine

Fatboy is going to count how many Double Quarter Pounders he can eat tonight. Ooops! I guess I do count things.

smalls
09-26-2007, 06:08 PM
Before I started playing football in college, I was about 190lbs. In 2 years I went up to 250lbs without Fitday or counting calories. AMAZING! My BF was very low, as stated earlier. Once I got into powerlifting, i went from 250-315 without, you guessed it, Fitday or counting calories.

If you guys wanna count away - go for it. Have fun. I don't really care. If you think 20% is fat, you're view of fat is very skewed. And, that's cool. I don't care. You calculate, you draw pie charts, break out the slide rule - have at it. When I want to lose weight I'll just eat less and exercise more. This almost makes me want to drop down to 300 and get down around 10-12% just to prove how easy it can be. I'm not sure if I care enough or not. Right now, my fat ass is on a mission that few of you could ever understand.

Sensei - you and I are strangly alike in our views. Good times.

And, for the guy asking about what Justin Harris talked about - it was protein powder, branched chain amino acids, L-luecine, and creatine

Fatboy is going to count how many Double Quarter Pounders he can eat tonight. Ooops! I guess I do count things.

Most people cannot eat 7000+ calories every day without fail if they dont count cals, at least to some extent. That is what it takes for me to gain after bulking for any amount of time. Of course the average person can keep getting bigger as long as they train and keep eating more. I would rather like the way I look, and for me, your method wouldnt work for that. I've done it. We understand each other and agree to disagree.

And just for ****s and giggles do you have any pics of when you were 250 and 9%. And you should diet down to 300 at 10% and show us all how silly we are. Hell you could compete at the national level while your at it. Speak about what you know.

Outshine
09-26-2007, 06:28 PM
Before I started playing football in college, I was about 190lbs. In 2 years I went up to 250lbs without Fitday or counting calories. AMAZING! My BF was very low, as stated earlier. Once I got into powerlifting, i went from 250-315 without, you guessed it, Fitday or counting calories.

If you guys wanna count away - go for it. Have fun. I don't really care. If you think 20% is fat, you're view of fat is very skewed. And, that's cool. I don't care. You calculate, you draw pie charts, break out the slide rule - have at it. When I want to lose weight I'll just eat less and exercise more. This almost makes me want to drop down to 300 and get down around 10-12% just to prove how easy it can be. I'm not sure if I care enough or not. Right now, my fat ass is on a mission that few of you could ever understand.

Sensei - you and I are strangly alike in our views. Good times.

And, for the guy asking about what Justin Harris talked about - it was protein powder, branched chain amino acids, L-luecine, and creatine

Fatboy is going to count how many Double Quarter Pounders he can eat tonight. Ooops! I guess I do count things.

All points missed completely. At least you're consistent.

Anyway, you seem like a nice enough guy, so, for the sake of humanity, I'm done with this thread.

Sensei
09-26-2007, 06:53 PM
Seriously, why do you post? Why do bother to say "you seem like a nice enough guy" after telling him you think he's clueless? If you are somehow trying to sound like less of an a-hole, you are failing miserably.

Outshine
09-26-2007, 07:07 PM
Seriously, why do you post? Why do bother to say "you seem like a nice enough guy" after telling him you think he's clueless? If you are somehow trying to sound like less of an a-hole, you are failing miserably.

I stated things. Judging by his reply, he either completely misunderstood or just completely ignored the aforementioned things. There is no doubt about this. Submit the thread to a team of experts and they'll all agree.

This, however, doesn't make him a bad guy.

And no, I'm not trying to decrease nor increase how much of an a-hole you think I am. I've just decided that I'd rather not argue (or whatever we've been doing) any longer. I told him he's a nice enough guy (my way of saying "hey, we may always argue about diet stuff, but I don't hate you because of that") and went on my merry way.

That's why I posted.

RhodeHouse
09-26-2007, 09:46 PM
Outshine - Thanks for thinking I'm a nice guy. I really appreciate that. That means so much to me. It's been something that causes me to lose sleep at night. I feel a restful sleep coming on knowing that you think I'm a nice guy.

Smalls - sorry dude, it ain't that hard to get around 10% Below that is a b!tch and a heck of a lot of work. I do have pictures, but I'm in a football uniform. It wasn't common practice for me to have pictures taken with my boxers on while I was in college. Not sure how you guys rolled.

And, my little friend, I do speak about what I know. Sorry I missed all of your points in your incoherent rambling posts. I'm too busy getting big and strong. You should try it sometime.

Outshine
09-27-2007, 04:27 AM
And, my little friend, I do speak about what I know. Sorry I missed all of your points in your incoherent rambling posts. I'm too busy getting big and strong. You should try it sometime.

Ah Rhodes, my fat friend, it's ok. I just spent some time getting/staying lean. 6 visible abs... nice. You should try it some time. Anyway, about getting big and strong, that's exactly what I'll be doing starting next week. Eating more, lifting heavier, you know how it goes. The only thing is I'll have a good idea about how many calories above maintenance I am because I happen to not want to get too fat while getting big and strong. A little fat? No problem. 20% BF? No thanks. So, I'll track my calorie intake and other stuff to keep that in check.

Why this continues to cause arguments, I'll never know.

Anyway, it was nice having this discussion with you. Have a good one.

WillKuenzel
09-27-2007, 06:52 AM
What the hell are y'all arguing over? Outshine, you keep coming back with the argument that counting calories is "helpful". Nobody will really disagree with that. Sure, it's helpful. Is it necessary? No. It's not.

I started out at 130lbs in high school. I've done 2 bodybuilding competitions. I've tracked my calories. I'm now a powerlifter, albeit a very poor one, but I'm working on that. I don't track my calories now though. It's not worth it. I'm staying lean and getting bigger and stronger without tracking them. It doesn't always matter. Is it helpful? Sure, but I don't have to in order to keep progressing.

Outshine
09-27-2007, 08:39 AM
What the hell are y'all arguing over? Outshine, you keep coming back with the argument that counting calories is "helpful". Nobody will really disagree with that. Sure, it's helpful. Is it necessary? No. It's not.

I started out at 130lbs in high school. I've done 2 bodybuilding competitions. I've tracked my calories. I'm now a powerlifter, albeit a very poor one, but I'm working on that. I don't track my calories now though. It's not worth it. I'm staying lean and getting bigger and stronger without tracking them. It doesn't always matter. Is it helpful? Sure, but I don't have to in order to keep progressing.

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

I made the statement that "tracking calories is helpful" inside of a thread where a couple of powerlifters are stating that it's a complete waste of time.

I made the statement (about 50 million times now) that while I'm in complete agreement that it's not required, I do think it is helpful, specifically for those of us whose goal is looking good/being healthy rather than becoming powerlifters.

Then, rather than them saying "Yeah, it can be helpful" they just come back with the same "it's useless and only complicates things" argument. Peppered in with that argument is how they have SOMEHOW lost/gained weight before fitday ever existed and how they MAGICALLY were able to get lean/big without counting calories. This would make sense to say if I said calorie counting was a requirement for these results to take place, but I'm not saying that. I'm just saying it can be helpful and not a complicated waste of time.

Somehow, they keep arguing with me. It's insanity.

WillKuenzel
09-27-2007, 09:15 AM
They're arguing that sometimes it can get complicated for new people. When you first started did you know how many calories were in a gram of protein? Most new people just starting out, can't figure that out. They can easily start making better food choices and get away with losing weight without ever really needing to complicate things by counting calories. I'm not saying it's overtly complicated but figuring out how many calories and/or grams of protein were that steak dinner was is not always at the top of people's priorities. And essentially for new people just starting out, either looking to gain or lose weight, just eating better without counting is easy enough.

If you were just average joe, looking for the easiest way out, would you be tracking calories? Probably not. I'm a personal trainer. I know how easy it is and it's my job to make it look easier. How many of my clients do you think actually track and count calories? Not many.

These people are telling you that for the average person tracking calories ain't easy. For the enlightened of us, sure it's easy to do. I can do it if I think about it because I have serving sizes, portions, grams, calories, etc. memorized. I can think about what I had to eat yesterday and without putting it in fitday, tell you within a hundred calories or so of what I had. Do you think the average person can do that?

It's like asking a mechanical engineer to program something in C++. It's outside of his specialty. Could he learn to do so? Sure but if he doesn't need it, why should he. The average person will think the same way. If he can lose weight without counting calories, why should he count calories. No doubt it's helpful once people have learned to do so but getting people to learn to do it is the hard part.

RhodeHouse
09-27-2007, 09:57 AM
Ah Rhodes, my fat friend, it's ok. I just spent some time getting/staying lean. 6 visible abs... nice. You should try it some time. Anyway, about getting big and strong, that's exactly what I'll be doing starting next week. Eating more, lifting heavier, you know how it goes. The only thing is I'll have a good idea about how many calories above maintenance I am because I happen to not want to get too fat while getting big and strong. A little fat? No problem. 20% BF? No thanks. So, I'll track my calorie intake and other stuff to keep that in check.

Why this continues to cause arguments, I'll never know.

Anyway, it was nice having this discussion with you. Have a good one.

6 visible abs? WOW! I'm not sure what to say. I bet you get all the pretty girls with those 6 visible abs. I guess my abs are invisible? You and I should walk down the beach together (not in a gay way) and see how many people notice your abs when you're walking next to a 6'4" 315lbs man. I've tried it with a friend of mine who has "visible abs". He was so mad at me. Have fun with your abs.

Outshine
09-27-2007, 10:07 AM
6 visible abs? WOW! I'm not sure what to say. I bet you get all the pretty girls with those 6 visible abs. I guess my abs are invisible? You and I should walk down the beach together (not in a gay way) and see how many people notice your abs when you're walking next to a 6'4" 315lbs man. I've tried it with a friend of mine who has "visible abs". He was so mad at me. Have fun with your abs.

Ha, see, you're not a bad guy. We just have different goals and different points of view on diet related stuff (you view what I find helpful as useless) and that probably stems mostly from that difference in goals. I guess we can end this then, as this is as far as it's going to get.

I actually live literally 10 minutes walking distance from the beach here in NY. If you're ever in town, let me know. We can walk the beach and film it for YouTube.

RhodeHouse
09-27-2007, 10:35 AM
I don't think your ideas are USELESS. I just think that less focus on some of those things for beginners or even intermediate lifters, will help their progress more. I see so many people, especially younger guys, that look at so many variables, and still make no progress. As weird as it sounds, that little "stress" of counting calories and worrying about all those little things can keep you from making progress. In my latest gain, it took me 3 weeks of crazy eating before I even gained a lb. I was counting protein for the first time in my life. All I did all day was worry about grams of protein. As soon as I stopped, the weight just started coming on.

Outshine
09-27-2007, 11:14 AM
I agree. Worrying about a certain number of grams of protein can complicate things for beginners who just need to eat more the same way thinking about whether to do dumbbell or barbell curls will complicate things for the beginner who should just bench, squat, deadlift, row, pullup, overhead press and repeat.

And I also understand that it's also a matter of personal preference and not just specific goals. As you just said, it did complicate things for you to the point where it actually screwed up your progress. As weird as that does sound to me, I understand it. For me though, it's the opposite.

This will probably sound weird to you, but not doing all of that diet tracking stuff can equally screw up progress for some people just the same. I'm one of those people. It helped/continues to help my progress. I have my little food scale, I weigh out my brown rice and chicken, etc. etc. and it actually helps me. I like knowing I'm consistently eating X amount of calories, protein, carbs and fat each day. It's a confirmation that I'm doing exactly what I need to be doing diet-wise, which at the same time also helps me ensure that I won't gain/lose weight too fast and other similar stuff that someone with my specific goals finds important.

smalls
09-27-2007, 12:00 PM
What the hell are y'all arguing over? Outshine, you keep coming back with the argument that counting calories is "helpful". Nobody will really disagree with that. Sure, it's helpful. Is it necessary? No. It's not.

I started out at 130lbs in high school. I've done 2 bodybuilding competitions. I've tracked my calories. I'm now a powerlifter, albeit a very poor one, but I'm working on that. I don't track my calories now though. It's not worth it. I'm staying lean and getting bigger and stronger without tracking them. It doesn't always matter. Is it helpful? Sure, but I don't have to in order to keep progressing.

Ah, if everyone could just be so concise while still being correct. Nice post.

brihead301
09-28-2007, 01:19 PM
Counting calories was the #1 most helpful thing for me in controlling exactly how my body looked. With my nifty little excel spreadsheet that I made it takes me a total of 30 seconds to plan my meals out for a whole day, and I know EXACTLY how many calories, grams of protien, carbs, and fat I'm getting. If I start gaining too much fat, I just cut back about 200 cals. If I'm not gaining weight, I add 200 - 300 calories. I just put my program to work, eat in the amounts specified, and BAM weight gain/loss. Very useful!

Here's my program:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/yl5we9

Just copy, paste, and enter serving size (you'll figure it out). Very easy.

HahnB
09-28-2007, 01:40 PM
6 visible abs? WOW! I'm not sure what to say. I bet you get all the pretty girls with those 6 visible abs. I guess my abs are invisible? You and I should walk down the beach together (not in a gay way) and see how many people notice your abs when you're walking next to a 6'4" 315lbs man. I've tried it with a friend of mine who has "visible abs". He was so mad at me. Have fun with your abs.

There's a big difference between being noticed by the opposite sex and being desired by the opposite sex. I think that's what Outshine is getting at. I'm sure everyone would notice someone on the beach with 3 arms, that doesn't mean it's the way to look.

HP666
09-28-2007, 03:40 PM
There's a big difference between being noticed by the opposite sex and being desired by the opposite sex. I think that's what Outshine is getting at. I'm sure everyone would notice someone on the beach with 3 arms, that doesn't mean it's the way to look.


HA!! Hahn you hit the nail right on the head. As a 6-4 350lb man I know what you mean. It's the "holy *****, look at that *****ing guy, he's a monster" look; which is cool in it's own way. Versus the "Wow, look at that guy, he's hot, I bet he looks good naked, I'd like to find out" look.

vdizenzo
09-28-2007, 09:50 PM
HA!! Hahn you hit the nail right on the head. As a 6-4 350lb man I know what you mean. It's the "holy *****, look at that *****ing guy, he's a monster" look; which is cool in it's own way. Versus the "Wow, look at that guy, he's hot, I bet he looks good naked, I'd like to find out" look.



This thread is hilarious. I am sitting here enjoying reading it with a box of Ring Dings and a gallon of milk (don't worry--it's skim milk). Let's not get into the girl thing because it really has very little to do with looks. My wife is ****ing hot and has a visible six pack. There was a guy at the gym tonight who was marveling at my catch. Yet I do not have a six pack. I am rather keg like, but I sure am one big strong mofo.

Six pack guys, here is some advice. Your abs are not going to get you laid. Your game is. Just remember, if you happen to get lucky with the fairer sex they don't like it if you spend more time looking in the mirror than they do.

By the way HP666 is that really what you think when you see a "hot guy?"

Now what time does McDonald's close, I'm hungry!

LouPac
09-28-2007, 10:34 PM
This thread is hilarious. I am sitting here enjoying reading it with a box of Ring Dings and a gallon of milk (don't worry--it's skim milk).

lol:zipit:

RhodeHouse
09-28-2007, 11:01 PM
Big V is right! And, Hanh, don't be jealous little guy.

Have a Twinkie and smile

HahnB
09-29-2007, 12:30 AM
Nobody in this thread is jealous. We've all pointed out that we have different goals.

RhodeHouse
09-30-2007, 08:34 AM
Since we all have different goals, shut up about some of our choices that may not be deemed "healthy" by Dr. Hahn MD (degree obtained from the Sam Houston Institue of Technology)