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irish mike
03-07-2002, 08:42 PM
my post workout shake always throws me out of ketosis.thats the only time it does and it only has 1 carb.i know its because of glucogenesis- im wondering if i should just drink about 10 grams of dextrose or something.i dont want my body to become efficient at converting protein.does anyone have any experience as to how long this(dextrose) will keep me out of ketosis?

Qea
03-07-2002, 09:01 PM
Won't adding alot of fat (eg flax) to your post-wo shake prevent glucogenesis from occuring. Since your body is in ketosis, wouldn't fat be a preferable form of energy?

TFXP-Zeke01
03-07-2002, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Qea
Won't adding alot of fat (eg flax) to your post-wo shake prevent glucogenesis from occuring. Since your body is in ketosis, wouldn't fat be a preferable form of energy?

Good theory!;) Since I'm starting this diet also, I'd like to know this.

irish mike
03-07-2002, 10:36 PM
you're body tries to replenish glycogen is why glucogenesis occurs post workout.fat cant be used to refill glycogen or used to fuel anerobic excercise

dojdave
03-08-2002, 04:50 AM
Irish, I am just curious how many carbs you are taking in on the ckd?

MonStar1023
03-08-2002, 05:07 AM
Under 20g of carbs per day on a CKD. Except during the carbups, usually on weekends. Basically your postworkout shake will be water, whey protein, and fat. Like heavy whipping cream, flax, or peanut butter.

:cool::cool:

Prelude
03-08-2002, 07:28 AM
Basically your postworkout shake will be water, whey protein, and fat. Like heavy whipping cream, flax, or peanut butter.

At what percentages post w/o? 50/50 Fat,Protein?

I would assume you have to look for the sugar free whipped cream. Damn! that just made me crave for something sweet.

irish mike
03-08-2002, 12:00 PM
prelude its whipping cream not whipped cream-its pure fat

Prelude
03-08-2002, 12:25 PM
What part of the grocery would I find this? But a protein powder and flax would do just right?

vpy
03-08-2002, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Prelude
What part of the grocery would I find this? But a protein powder and flax would do just right?

not when you're on a CKD... throw some natty PB in like monstar says or you won't have enough fat to stay in ketosis.

oh, and whipping cream will be in the milk section...

Prelude
03-08-2002, 01:16 PM
I usually have 40g of whey and 2 tbsp. of flax oil post w/o. Is this not enough? Should I add more fat in it? My natty PB has 7g of Carbs per 2 tbsp, is this too much?

Thanks!!!

vpy
03-08-2002, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Prelude
I usually have 40g of whey and 2 tbsp. of flax oil post w/o. Is this not enough? Should I add more fat in it? My natty PB has 7g of Carbs per 2 tbsp, is this too much?

Thanks!!!

depends if you're asking along the lines of Irish Mike wanting to stay in ketosis.....assuming you want, say 75/25 fat/pro for ketosis, i'd throw in 50-55g worth of fat to balance out that 40g of whey...but then again, that'd be a load of cals for post w/o.. just adjust your ratios correctly while getting the right amt of cals if you're in CKD....

if you're not in CKD, the whey and flax are fine... thats what I do when I'm lazy post w/o.

plornive
03-08-2002, 02:59 PM
You can assume that 58% of protein, 10% of fat, and 100% of carbs will be converted to blood glucose. Even at times of low glycogen, these percentages are fairly constant.

At the beginning of a keto diet, you should limit the glucose in your blood to <=100g per day. In addition, the ketogenic ratio of ANY meal should be fairly low. Fat slows meal digestion, but this does not stop someone from kicking him/herself out of ketosis if the ketogenic ratio of that meal is too low.

The ketogenic ratio is usually calculated as follows:

0*<carb calories> + .9*<fat calories> + .46*<protein calories>
------------------------------------------------------------
1*<carb calories> + .1*<fat calories> + .58*<protein calories>

You should do one of two things:
1. keep the ketogenic ratio of this meal HIGH, so that there is very little glycogen replenishment at all... such is the nature of this diet, remember.
2. Change to a targetted ketogenic diet, in which you take high GI carbs only after a workout. You can get back into ketosis fairly easily after that.

Anything in between is useless, in my opinion.

TFXP-Zeke01
03-08-2002, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by plornive
You can assume that 58% of protein, 10% of fat, and 100% of carbs will be converted to blood glucose. Even at times of low glycogen, these percentages are fairly constant.

At the beginning of a keto diet, you should limit the glucose in your blood to <=100g per day. In addition, the ketogenic ratio of ANY meal should be fairly low. Fat slows meal digestion, but this does not stop someone from kicking him/herself out of ketosis if the ketogenic ratio of that meal is too low.

The ketogenic ratio is usually calculated as follows:

0*<carb calories> + .9*<fat calories> + .46*<protein calories>
------------------------------------------------------------
1*<carb calories> + .1*<fat calories> + .58*<protein calories>

You should do one of two things:
1. keep the ketogenic ratio of this meal HIGH, so that there is very little glycogen replenishment at all... such is the nature of this diet, remember.
2. Change to a targetted ketogenic diet, in which you take high GI carbs only after a workout. You can get back into ketosis fairly easily after that.

Anything in between is useless, in my opinion.

Maybe it's because my brain is "dead" from having no glucose supply, but I had a severe puzzled look on my face when I read this. Sorry for the stupidity, but my mind is just numb.:cry: :confused:

plornive
03-08-2002, 03:21 PM
Just add the calories from each macronutrient. Insert them into the ketogenic ratio formula. Make sure that this ratio is >=1.5 for your post-workout shake.

Also, add this formula up for an entire day's food:
.58*<protein calories> + .1*<fat calories> + 1*<carb calories>

Make sure this is <400, which is 100g of glucose in your blood. Approaching your 3rd week, however, this should be <160, or 40g of glucose in your blood. This is because the body has adapted and it takes less carbs to kick you out of ketosis (your brain requires less than 40g of glucose per day at that point).

plornive
03-08-2002, 03:23 PM
Wait, forget that 100g 40g thing. you can still be higher, and be in ketosis. This is a general guideline to follow. Obviously, you cannot limit the glucose in your blood to 40g and eat enough protein.

irish mike
03-10-2002, 06:03 AM
plornive thanks for responding to my thread,i've heard that 58% of protein converts.that depends on the amino acid profile of the protein though doesn't it?but i've never heard that fat can be converted to glucose.i am gonna give a tkd a shot here next week.i think it would be beneficial and all and all i dont think it will have much effect on how long im out of ketosis post workout.

plornive
03-10-2002, 11:48 PM
Yes, it depends on the amino acid profile. Generally speaking, the more BCAAs, the higher the efficiency of gluconeogenesis. Whey protein, with its fast digesting and high BCAA properties, converts to glucose very easily --- especially when glucagon is high. Glucagon is high during a ketogenic diet.

When I diet, I usually prefer a low carb diet (~20%), and I supplement with a shitload of whey. The BCAA's really do a good job of preventing muscle loss.

Prelude
03-12-2002, 02:21 PM
Hey Irish,

do you eat the fruit before your full body workout as well as work outs during the week?

irish mike
03-12-2002, 08:44 PM
i'll eat a banana

Prelude
03-13-2002, 07:25 AM
Before my full body I'll eat a banana. But before my split w/o during the week I don't. Is that bad?

irish mike
03-13-2002, 07:55 AM
i dont either.its my understanding that fructose is the quickest way out of ketosis. its supposed to switch your body over to sugar burning mode for maximum glycogen depletion.since it(fructose)preferentialy refills liver glycogen your muscles can still become depleted.every once in a while(once a month) if i find my diet stalling i'll do what's called a FAT FAST.it's basically 750 calories of fat(shots of flax seed oil)and then about 1 gram protein per pound body weight(i use near zero carb atkins shakes)i do it for 2 days before my carb up and it really has a dramatic effect as far as super compensation of muscle glycogen after your carb up.it also puts your body in high gear as far as fat burning goes( my ketostix look almost black even though i take in a shitload of water).muscle loss should be minimized if your in ketosis when you star the fat fast

Prelude
03-13-2002, 08:05 AM
OK let me see if I understand this correctly. Before the carb up starts you have to do a full body w/o to deplete muscle glyco. But since you are still in ketosis (before the full body w/o) you have to eat a fruit to knock you out or ketosis and into sugar burning mode. So when you do your full body w/o you are using muscle glyco as energy? But during the week when you w/o and don't eat anything pre w/o and still in ketosis, do you use stored fat as energy?

irish mike
03-13-2002, 08:15 AM
you use stored muscle glyco.its impossible to use fat to fuel anaerobic excercise

Prelude
03-13-2002, 08:49 AM
....sorry, I meant my three cardio sessions for the week.