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View Full Version : Lockout analysis of the big 3. Please contribute..



1mmort4l
10-13-2007, 06:28 AM
I've been really wondering what sort of weights others put up, in regards to Rack lockouts (Bench) High pin squats and knee high pulls.

Now, i really think my Deadlift blows. I've been training Deads for about a year now, and weight increase is non existent or VERY slow. My best Dead off the floor is only 395, but i have comfortably pulled 625 from my knee. What i was wondering is if i had a problem with activating the muscles with the weight off the floor or something similar that i need to address. I think the 625 is pretty respectable, and was wondering if others considered this an out of the ordinary difference from the 395 full ROM?

As for Bench, i want to start using a shirt, and would really like to know what i could potentially lift with one. I've done a rack press (about 6 inches) with 465 for a triple (5 secs rest in between.) and done a 375 3 Board. Full rom max is about 325, just wondering what sort of weight difference others are showing with lockouts and 3 boards.

Lastly Squats. I always just thought i would be able to easily handle 600+ for a 5 or 6 inch rom, but was surprised to find i struggled with about 525. Granted it was the very first time trying them, and have yet to try again, i was just a bit surprised. What sort of weight difference are others seeing on this?


Would like to see input from ANYONE, and appreciate the responses.

I would like to do a poll, but there would be too many options.
Cheers guys!

Magilla
10-13-2007, 06:37 AM
I can only contribute to the bench. Just getting back into the DL groove, and I try to avoid the partial ROM on the squat. No reason, just how I do them.....

My bench is roughly 430# (I think it is higher now). I do not do rack lockouts. 2bds I just did 470...and for 3 boards, I should get around 500#, will know Monday am.

Stumprrp
10-13-2007, 08:52 AM
i use these for strength building, and for some reason i am ridiculously strong at them not being conceded.

bench with around 4 inch ROM ive done 545? deadlift with 6 inch ive done 1005, and squat with 6 inch ive done 1040.

alot of people say they do nothing, however, this builds your overall body strength BIG TIME, IMO.

KevinStarke
10-13-2007, 08:56 AM
Never done squat lockouts but as far as bench and dead..

Full Range Dead PR = 475
Rack Lockout from the Knee = 585

Full Range Raw Bench = 325
Raw 3-Board Bench = 415
Raw 2-Board Bench = 385
Narrow Grip Rack Lockout = 455

Full Range Shirted Bench = 405

Portboy
10-13-2007, 09:13 AM
Ah crap...what does 'lockout' mean?

Ryano
10-13-2007, 09:33 AM
"As for Bench, i want to start using a shirt, and would really like to know what i could potentially lift with one."

Bench: (BW x 70%) + raw bench = ~ 450 pounds.

I know there are many variables that could change this, but it works for me with a single ply tight poly shirt with relatively good technique. I don't really know of any good way to interpet rack lockouts or board presses to a full range shirted bench. I've heard people say that if you can triple a two board, you should be able to hit it full range. Don't know for sure. Best way to find out is buy a shirt and use it. Don't expect miracles right away. It takes good technique and a quality shirt to get the 70%-75%. Good luck.

TommyBoy
10-13-2007, 12:24 PM
I've pulled over 600 from the floor and my best lockout is around 600. My best shirted bench is between 450 and 500 and my best lockout is around the same.

I'm a firm believer in keeping things relative. If I go and do 1" range of motion on my deadlift and get 1200, it won't help my deadlift as a whole. I believe that each portion (i.e. sticking point) should be trained equally. I used to be big on 5 and 6 board presses, but all they did was make me really strong at the very top of my bench. My bench as a whole, suffered drastically.

So I've gone away from doing lot's of top end stuff. Now I mainly focus on each lift as a whole, and really hammer my assistance work in order for each muscle group to be strong enough to support my weak points in the big 3.

redFury
10-13-2007, 01:32 PM
For bench, I estimate my raw to be ~280 and my 3 board to be 315

Squat, raw around ~315 and with pins set about half way down I can do ~450

Deadlift, best in a suit is 455 and rack pulls at the knees is ~525 (without straps)... I can do a ton more with straps.

RhodeHouse
10-13-2007, 06:27 PM
There's really no comparison between the different lifts. Treat a lockout, Pin Pull, Board Press, etc... as it's own lift. As long as your lifts go up, that's all that matters.

How much will a shirt give you? No real answer. If you bench 500lbs, it gave you 500lbs. Very individual specific.

IMO - rack lockouts are TERRIBLE for your pec/shoulder tie in. I would opt for board presses to work your lockout.

Here are some of my numbers, and I think you'll see that it really depends on the individual.
Raw Bench - 475
2 Board - 455
3 Board - 495
4 Board - 565
5 Board - 605
6 Board - 625
Shirt - all-time best is 620 in a Double Rage X

DL off floor - 750
Pin Pulls below knees - 770

I don't like pin Squats. IMO, I would just squat Hi if you wanna work the top end of the squat. I don't really like that, though, either, because you don't get used to getting depth.

Hope that makes sense.

1mmort4l
10-13-2007, 07:14 PM
i use these for strength building, and for some reason i am ridiculously strong at them not being conceded.

bench with around 4 inch ROM ive done 545? deadlift with 6 inch ive done 1005, and squat with 6 inch ive done 1040.

alot of people say they do nothing, however, this builds your overall body strength BIG TIME, IMO.

Damn! That's a substantial difference Stump!




Never done squat lockouts but as far as bench and dead..

Full Range Dead PR = 475
Rack Lockout from the Knee = 585

Full Range Raw Bench = 325
Raw 3-Board Bench = 415
Raw 2-Board Bench = 385
Narrow Grip Rack Lockout = 455

Full Range Shirted Bench = 405

Thats the kind of thing i was looking for Kevin, thanks. I thought i saw a vid of you DL 495 ages ago. Anyway, you can DL a HEAP more than me, but my knee lockout is more than you. I want to know why the big difference, i think thats the key to increasing my DL. Your bench lockout and boards are awesome man!



"As for Bench, i want to start using a shirt, and would really like to know what i could potentially lift with one."

Bench: (BW x 70%) + raw bench = ~ 450 pounds.

I know there are many variables that could change this, but it works for me with a single ply tight poly shirt with relatively good technique. I don't really know of any good way to interpet rack lockouts or board presses to a full range shirted bench. I've heard people say that if you can triple a two board, you should be able to hit it full range. Don't know for sure. Best way to find out is buy a shirt and use it. Don't expect miracles right away. It takes good technique and a quality shirt to get the 70%-75%. Good luck.

Thanks Ryano, thats an interesting formula. 450 would be nice!

1mmort4l
10-13-2007, 07:29 PM
I've pulled over 600 from the floor and my best lockout is around 600. My best shirted bench is between 450 and 500 and my best lockout is around the same.

I'm a firm believer in keeping things relative. If I go and do 1" range of motion on my deadlift and get 1200, it won't help my deadlift as a whole. I believe that each portion (i.e. sticking point) should be trained equally. I used to be big on 5 and 6 board presses, but all they did was make me really strong at the very top of my bench. My bench as a whole, suffered drastically.

So I've gone away from doing lot's of top end stuff. Now I mainly focus on each lift as a whole, and really hammer my assistance work in order for each muscle group to be strong enough to support my weak points in the big 3.

Best dead is the same as lockout? Wow, i wish that were the case for me. Its really unfortunate that my weak point is probably the hardest point to isolate!

The reason i train lockouts sometimes is to get me used to holding the heavier weights. Not only phsychological, but physically the "lighter" normal weights feel easier. I see great benefits in it for me.
Interesting what you said about the 6 boards and lockouts, makes sense to me. Although i only train the heavy lockouts maybe once a month etc..



There's really no comparison between the different lifts. Treat a lockout, Pin Pull, Board Press, etc... as it's own lift. As long as your lifts go up, that's all that matters.

How much will a shirt give you? No real answer. If you bench 500lbs, it gave you 500lbs. Very individual specific.

IMO - rack lockouts are TERRIBLE for your pec/shoulder tie in. I would opt for board presses to work your lockout.

Here are some of my numbers, and I think you'll see that it really depends on the individual.
Raw Bench - 475
2 Board - 455
3 Board - 495
4 Board - 565
5 Board - 605
6 Board - 625
Shirt - all-time best is 620 in a Double Rage X

DL off floor - 750
Pin Pulls below knees - 770

I don't like pin Squats. IMO, I would just squat Hi if you wanna work the top end of the squat. I don't really like that, though, either, because you don't get used to getting depth.

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks alot Rhode. I treat the lockouts as their own lifts, and sometimes as an accessory movement. Is that a typo that you RAW max is more than your 2 board? How does that work? Do you have less arch when using boards, dont feel as comfortable? Or were you sniffing some serious Amonia before a bench comp? :p


As for the pin squats, i find i'm unracking the weight (330 etc.) and walking with the weight very dramtic as though im struggling alot, but then do a couple of reps. I thought the pin squats would help me HARDEN THE **** UP!
Last time i did them, i hurt my back a bit, so probably should have used a belt.

I find the different numbers of people very interesting. I actually envy those with similar full rom to partial. Possibly you have it down pat?
I need to find out what is wrong with my deadlift though, ive tried doing partial rom floor to knee deads, but feels weird. Any ideas?

Thanks for the input.

redFury
10-13-2007, 08:28 PM
IMO - rack lockouts are TERRIBLE for your pec/shoulder tie in. I would opt for board presses to work your lockout.

Completely agree with you here Rhodes... completely. I've always had pain when doing lockouts.

RhodeHouse
10-13-2007, 11:30 PM
Thanks alot Rhode. I treat the lockouts as their own lifts, and sometimes as an accessory movement. Is that a typo that you RAW max is more than your 2 board? How does that work? Do you have less arch when using boards, dont feel as comfortable? Or were you sniffing some serious Amonia before a bench comp? :p


As for the pin squats, i find i'm unracking the weight (330 etc.) and walking with the weight very dramtic as though im struggling alot, but then do a couple of reps. I thought the pin squats would help me HARDEN THE **** UP!
Last time i did them, i hurt my back a bit, so probably should have used a belt.

I find the different numbers of people very interesting. I actually envy those with similar full rom to partial. Possibly you have it down pat?
I need to find out what is wrong with my deadlift though, ive tried doing partial rom floor to knee deads, but feels weird. Any ideas?

Thanks for the input.[/QUOTE]

First of all, don't be a member of the "No Belt Brigade". Put the thing on and use it! Your abs will get stong regardless. When you're training squats, train squats. Do ab work when you're done.

Try to get video of your DL. My guess is, you're in a bad position when you start your pull. Do your hips shoot up first and it turns into a stiff-legged DL? Try to explain what happens if you can't get video.

RedSpikeyThing
10-14-2007, 08:24 AM
Obly ever done rack DLs and I got 450 I think, with a DL ~315. My DL has gone up substantially and now I want to test my rack pull....

I want to know why the big difference

I believe it has to do with your explosiveness and ability to accelerate the bar from a dead stop. A very explosive person will be able to rip the bar off the ground and get to lockout quickly, whereas other people rely on brute force. I remember hearing about two guys that had ~100 lbs difference between their bench presses, but the weaker guy could lockout more. The stronger guy had crazy fast bar speed.

Stumprrp
10-14-2007, 08:26 AM
it really does depend on the person, partial squats and dl's have always helped me.

Bohizzle
10-14-2007, 10:47 AM
try pulling off of plates for a little while to get the bottom of the pull stronger.

1mmort4l
10-15-2007, 02:24 AM
First of all, don't be a member of the "No Belt Brigade". Put the thing on and use it! Your abs will get stong regardless. When you're training squats, train squats. Do ab work when you're done.

Try to get video of your DL. My guess is, you're in a bad position when you start your pull. Do your hips shoot up first and it turns into a stiff-legged DL? Try to explain what happens if you can't get video.

Yeah, my bad with the belt, i actually didnt even think of it at the time. Im over it now so its all good.

As for my DL, i can get a vid when i go heavy next, hopefully next week. (hurt one of my Glutes) I did actually post a vid a while back, and yes, my hips do come up too early in it. Im not sure about now, as i have been working on it a fair bit. All i know is, if it comes off the floor, its quite easy. Thanks for your help Rhode, ill get a vid up when i can. Here is the old one, but dont gauge me on that one too much. Old DL vid, hips too early.. :( (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4CohufP8qM)


try pulling off of plates for a little while to get the bottom of the pull stronger.

Yeah, i was doing only that for a while, but didnt see any improvement, but i agree that it should help.

My Hamstrings hurt more than any other muscle when i do SLDL's or GM's, or DL's off 3 45's. They hurt for a week, is something wrong with them?
cheers.. :ninja:

daved931
10-15-2007, 05:51 AM
My max (raw) bench is 335 x 1. I can do 405 x 4 in the rack.

I really don't do high pin squats or the pin dead lifts.

FWIW, I'm 5'7" and 185 pounds.

Guido
10-15-2007, 03:23 PM
I've only squatted raw (belt only), and my best squat is about 445. I can rack squat with belt only 705x2 from about 3 inches above belly button height. Some consider that a medium height rack squat. With the pin set at sternum height I've done over 800lbs belt only.

For bench, I only do boards, and mostly just raw boards. My raw full range bench is 310. I've done 3 boards raw for 335x2, 2 boards with 325, and 1 board with 315, so I don't get much extra with boards on bench. In the shirt my max is 410 and I've only tried as high as 440 on boards.

On deadlift, my max deadlift PR is 550, but I've only gona as high as 605 on rack pulls. I just don't do rack pulls that often since I think form is sacrificed and I don't get much carryover from them. Rack squats carry over more for DL for me, IMHO.

RhodeHouse
10-15-2007, 05:32 PM
Dude, I watched your DL video. Your technique is fine. There's a few things to work on, but all in all, it's really good.

1. Start with your hips higher
2. Start with your weight back on your heels (lift your big toe up)
3. TRY, to get your shoulder behind the bar before you pull. It may not happen, but getting on your heels will help that

SFW!

1mmort4l
10-15-2007, 11:23 PM
I've only squatted raw (belt only), and my best squat is about 445. I can rack squat with belt only 705x2 from about 3 inches above belly button height. Some consider that a medium height rack squat. With the pin set at sternum height I've done over 800lbs belt only.

For bench, I only do boards, and mostly just raw boards. My raw full range bench is 310. I've done 3 boards raw for 335x2, 2 boards with 325, and 1 board with 315, so I don't get much extra with boards on bench. In the shirt my max is 410 and I've only tried as high as 440 on boards.

On deadlift, my max deadlift PR is 550, but I've only gona as high as 605 on rack pulls. I just don't do rack pulls that often since I think form is sacrificed and I don't get much carryover from them. Rack squats carry over more for DL for me, IMHO.


Cool, thanks for the info Guido. I actually didnt think there was alot of difference with boards when using the shirt. I guess your numbers put my whole theory of raw boards equalling shirted bench somewhere between 1 and 4 boards.. Oh well, i guess ill have to get a shirt that fits me better..



Dude, I watched your DL video. Your technique is fine. There's a few things to work on, but all in all, it's really good.

1. Start with your hips higher
2. Start with your weight back on your heels (lift your big toe up)
3. TRY, to get your shoulder behind the bar before you pull. It may not happen, but getting on your heels will help that

SFW!

Really? Thanks for the help.
I trained differently last night (long story) and did with 195 for ten, and whilst it was fairly easy, it does feel a bit strange, and rips the absolute **** out of my shins. I followed 2 sets of that with 1 set of SLDL, and the SLDL's were a heap easier! How the hell does that work?

Thansk again :thumbup:

joelhall
10-21-2007, 08:19 AM
clearly the problem is the starting strength in your legs when they are bent so much, as you explained you have this while squatting too...

id focus more on breaking parallel with the squats rather than LOs. and work on the flexibility of your legs more, and get more strength in your calves.