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jdeity
12-01-2007, 05:07 PM
I was thinking of this recently. Since you're in super heavy weight, and you're all about the eat til you puke approach to gain weight at all costs possible, do you find it could become a problem for your #'?

I was thinking that, say you gained a good amount of weight, surely you gained muscle with it. However, your approach is overeating and adding more than muscle, but extra fat. So, if you do it your style, won't you, in essence, be squatting extra bodyfat, and therefore hindering your total in squat? I mean, if you had the same muscle mass but a 15lbs lighter gut from less fat there, wouldn't that translate to a 15lbs gain on your squats?


Just curious, I was thinking of it earlier and don't see how this wouldn't be a factor to consider here, I dunno.

Bako Lifter
12-01-2007, 05:10 PM
15lbs of fat would give him a boost leverage-wise negating the problem you came up with.

Bako Lifter
12-01-2007, 05:10 PM
And it would make his gear tighter which would also help to squat more.

jdeity
12-01-2007, 05:22 PM
15lbs of fat would give him a boost leverage-wise negating the problem you came up with.
15lbs of fat in teh gut would give him a leverage boost that would give more than a 15lbs of on a squat? That doesn't sound right....


And it would make his gear tighter which would also help to squat more.
Well, gear's adjustable, so that doesn't really make sense to me either.

RhodeHouse
12-01-2007, 05:30 PM
I was thinking of this recently. Since you're in super heavy weight, and you're all about the eat til you puke approach to gain weight at all costs possible, do you find it could become a problem for your #'?

I was thinking that, say you gained a good amount of weight, surely you gained muscle with it. However, your approach is overeating and adding more than muscle, but extra fat. So, if you do it your style, won't you, in essence, be squatting extra bodyfat, and therefore hindering your total in squat? I mean, if you had the same muscle mass but a 15lbs lighter gut from less fat there, wouldn't that translate to a 15lbs gain on your squats?


Just curious, I was thinking of it earlier and don't see how this wouldn't be a factor to consider here, I dunno.

First of all, you don't understand my methods and when and why I use them.

Second, MASS MOVES MASS. Most of the strongest men in the world have been in the 17-20% BF range. Being too lean leads to too many problems when trying to be strong. The extra fat helps cushion the joints. It increases leverage. And, anybody that knows anything about getting strong will tell you that you gotta have a little bit of a gut. Look at some of the greatest strength athletes of all time. They all have pretty good bellies. I don't know of one good coach or lifter that doesn't tell you to push out your belly when you bench and squat. The more you have to push out, the more leverage and power you'll have. That's why the big guys move the most weight. Of course there are guys that are exceptions to the rule, but they are exceptions. There are some of the strongest men of all time, IMO

Bill Kazmaier
Donnie Thompson
Andy Bolton
Brian Siders
Chuck Vogelpohl
Zadrunas Savikas
Vasyl Virastuk

Check out their physiques. Massive men. Even Chuck has the nice belly at 275. More likely than not, if you care about your belly, you will never be that strong. Sorry.

jdeity
12-01-2007, 05:35 PM
I kind of get it....

I don't understand how 'mass moves mass' really works though. I mean, if you lost your gut, you're saying your weights would go down? I guess I don't understand how fat tissue in the abdominal region is helping you lift heavier... I'm not trying to take a dig at your programs because they're obviously working for you, but it just seems that the fat in the stomach isn't doing very much at all to move weight, it's just dead weight sitting on your abdominal muscles. I don't see how it can help you move more weight, it seems it's just more weight for you to have to move.

RhodeHouse
12-01-2007, 05:48 PM
Well, I don't know the science behind it other than BETTER LEVERAGES. That's simple to me. You don't know how fat I am. You don't know how big my gut is. You take my posts and assume that I'm a fatass.

Whether you understand it or not, look at some of the strongest men in the world.

RedSpikeyThing
12-01-2007, 06:04 PM
I don't understand how 'mass moves mass' really works though. I mean, if you lost your gut, you're saying your weights would go down? I guess I don't understand how fat tissue in the abdominal region is helping you lift heavier... I'm not trying to take a dig at your programs because they're obviously working for you, but it just seems that the fat in the stomach isn't doing very much at all to move weight, it's just dead weight sitting on your abdominal muscles. I don't see how it can help you move more weight, it seems it's just more weight for you to have to move.

For bench press, extra fat reduces your ROM. Obviously that will increase what you can bench. For squatting, I've heard you get some bounce from the way your stomach gets squished at the bottom. I'm not sure about deadlift, but I think it's similar to the squat. You can also think of the deadlift like a leaver...the arm length stays the same, but the weight increases. That gives you better leverage and allows you to move more weight
But take that with grain of salt.....I'm a flyweight :p

Killa Kurt
12-01-2007, 06:09 PM
First of all, you don't understand my methods and when and why I use them.

Second, MASS MOVES MASS. Most of the strongest men in the world have been in the 17-20% BF range. Being too lean leads to too many problems when trying to be strong. The extra fat helps cushion the joints. It increases leverage. And, anybody that knows anything about getting strong will tell you that you gotta have a little bit of a gut. Look at some of the greatest strength athletes of all time. They all have pretty good bellies. I don't know of one good coach or lifter that doesn't tell you to push out your belly when you bench and squat. The more you have to push out, the more leverage and power you'll have. That's why the big guys move the most weight. Of course there are guys that are exceptions to the rule, but they are exceptions. There are some of the strongest men of all time, IMO

Bill Kazmaier
Donnie Thompson
Andy Bolton
Brian Siders
Chuck Vogelpohl
Zadrunas Savikas
Vasyl Virastuk

Check out their physiques. Massive men. Even Chuck has the nice belly at 275. More likely than not, if you care about your belly, you will never be that strong. Sorry.

Mariusz, Jon Pall, Magnus.

4 time winners, no gut.

I'd say mass moving mass depends on which movement.

jdeity
12-01-2007, 06:26 PM
oh I was talking squat specifically. I can't see the gut hurting on a deadlift, and I see extra weight being beneficial on a bench press to reduce range of motion. It's just that on a squat, I don't see how the fat in the gut is anything more than extra weight you need to stand up with. I understand you're saying it's leverage, I just must not be experienced enough with squatting to understand how the belly fat is giving leverage that is more valuable than the decrease in weight needing to be squatted by weighing slightly less. Like, if you lost 5lbs of fat from your gut, you'd be able to put up 5 more pounds, but you're saying the 5lbs of fat from teh gut provides more than 5lbs of leverage in the squat? I guess I just don't understand how.. Maybe cuz I have a 6 pack and really couldn't imagine what it feels like to have a larger gut and how it'd be useful in a squat movement..

Sensei
12-01-2007, 06:31 PM
Mariusz, Jon Pall, Magnus.

4 time winners, no gut.

I'd say mass moving mass depends on which movement.Magnus had/has a gut. Like you said, the event selection makes a huge difference and modern strongman has a lot more events requiring the contestants to run around. In any case, Rhodes did say there were exceptions...jeebus.

Mass does help move weight and it helps keep the weight from moving you.

RhodeHouse
12-01-2007, 06:33 PM
Mariusz, Jon Pall, Magnus.

4 time winners, no gut.

I'd say mass moving mass depends on which movement.

I disagree. Just because they won 4 times, doesn't mean they are the strongest. Strongman should be renamed, World's Strongest Athletic Man. I know of all those guys and wouldn't classify any of them as some of the strongest men ever.

Mass moves mass. That's why the biggest guys are usually the strongest.

RhodeHouse
12-01-2007, 06:37 PM
oh I was talking squat specifically. I can't see the gut hurting on a deadlift, and I see extra weight being beneficial on a bench press to reduce range of motion. It's just that on a squat, I don't see how the fat in the gut is anything more than extra weight you need to stand up with. I understand you're saying it's leverage, I just must not be experienced enough with squatting to understand how the belly fat is giving leverage that is more valuable than the decrease in weight needing to be squatted by weighing slightly less. Like, if you lost 5lbs of fat from your gut, you'd be able to put up 5 more pounds, but you're saying the 5lbs of fat from teh gut provides more than 5lbs of leverage in the squat? I guess I just don't understand how.. Maybe cuz I have a 6 pack and really couldn't imagine what it feels like to have a larger gut and how it'd be useful in a squat movement..

A gut is horrible for the DL. There's one way to find out how much the gut helps. Get rid of the homo 6 pack and put some muscle on in your belly. Watch your squat go up.

I'm guessing this is one of your fat is bad type posts. I guess you just don't get it. That's cool. I guess all the guys who've yold me to put some fat on are wrong. I'm gonna make sure to go tell them.

Killa Kurt
12-01-2007, 07:01 PM
I disagree. Just because they won 4 times, doesn't mean they are the strongest. Strongman should be renamed, World's Strongest Athletic Man. I know of all those guys and wouldn't classify any of them as some of the strongest men ever.

Mass moves mass. That's why the biggest guys are usually the strongest.

If you win worlds strongest man 4 times, then I'd say you have some serious credibility as a "strongman". When Jon Pall and Magnus Ver Mag won there wasn't even an arnold classic strongman event, it was the podium for the worlds strongest man. And it's not called the worlds strongest athletic man. I agree that muscle mass moves more mass, in all cases. But as far as being cushioned, I personally believe that is an advantage in only certain movements.


Magnus had/has a gut. Like you said, the event selection makes a huge difference and modern strongman has a lot more events requiring the contestants to run around. In any case, Rhodes did say there were exceptions...jeebus.

Mass does help move weight and it helps keep the weight from moving you.

Magnus Ver Magnusson? Looked like he had a nice build to me.

RedSpikeyThing
12-01-2007, 10:15 PM
I'm guessing this is one of your fat is bad type posts. I guess you just don't get it. That's cool. I guess all the guys who've yold me to put some fat on are wrong. I'm gonna make sure to go tell them.

:confused: He's trying to understand the physics behind it, not tell you to stop eating McDick's and lean out.

Leeman
12-01-2007, 10:22 PM
A gut is horrible for the DL. There's one way to find out how much the gut helps. Get rid of the homo 6 pack and put some muscle on in your belly. Watch your squat go up.

I'm guessing this is one of your fat is bad type posts. I guess you just don't get it. That's cool. I guess all the guys who've yold me to put some fat on are wrong. I'm gonna make sure to go tell them.


Why is a gut horrible for the deadlift?

deeder
12-02-2007, 01:39 AM
Why is a gut horrible for the deadlift?

It gets in the way :thumbup:

jdeity
12-02-2007, 07:04 AM
A gut is horrible for the DL. There's one way to find out how much the gut helps. Get rid of the homo 6 pack and put some muscle on in your belly. Watch your squat go up.

I'm guessing this is one of your fat is bad type posts. I guess you just don't get it. That's cool. I guess all the guys who've yold me to put some fat on are wrong. I'm gonna make sure to go tell them.

Dude this isn't one of those attacks. Nothing of the sort, it was an honest question, but thanks for presuming I must be gay because I have a fitness build and not a powerlifter build :thumbup:

I was reading something, hell it may've even been by tate, talking about general conditioning for powerlifters and all. It seemed to be talking down a bit about the hyper-overweight powerlifter, which is why I was asking here.




And getting a gut won't help my squat for a while, I've never even hit 400 on a squat so I've got quite a ways to go with form and just strength before a gut's gonna be coming into play.

jdeity
12-02-2007, 07:06 AM
oh and further on 'fat is bad', I expressly stated this was only for squat. I also said, before you started your insinuations I was attacking you, that I can see why it would help for bench press.

Not having a gut, not being in the powerlifting culture, it seems entirely plausible to me that having a gut would just create more weight you need to stand up with, and at your level of expertise, that weight would become critical - hence why your name was in the title.

vdizenzo
12-02-2007, 11:53 AM
Having a gut in the squat allows you to push your belly off of your thighs. It also gives you a solid core to lift/stabilize. I have a big gut, but when I tighten it, it's very hard. You will find a lot of big powerlifters are like this because we have been taught to push against our belts forever. Plus all of the heavy core and ab work.

Statistically strength athletes do best between 16-18%. Now that is not fat, but it's not shredded either.

Regarding strongman, I think the strongest of them are in the IFSA not WSM. Regardless Marius is a freak. Jon Paul would have lost against OD if it were not for that stupid ass fridge run. For static strength mass moves mass!

RhodeHouse
12-02-2007, 12:19 PM
:confused: He's trying to understand the physics behind it, not tell you to stop eating McDick's and lean out.

Nothing to understand. It works. No need to read a whole bunch of stuff to figure out what I've said.

RhodeHouse
12-02-2007, 12:24 PM
Dude this isn't one of those attacks. Nothing of the sort, it was an honest question, but thanks for presuming I must be gay because I have a fitness build and not a powerlifter build :thumbup:

I was reading something, hell it may've even been by tate, talking about general conditioning for powerlifters and all. It seemed to be talking down a bit about the hyper-overweight powerlifter, which is why I was asking here.



And getting a gut won't help my squat for a while, I've never even hit 400 on a squat so I've got quite a ways to go with form and just strength before a gut's gonna be coming into play.

Dave would never degrade the gut. I know him personally and he yelled at me for eating as healthy as I do.

jdeity
12-02-2007, 02:08 PM
Nothing to understand. It works. No need to read a whole bunch of stuff to figure out what I've said.

there was something to understand, this thread just demonstrated that :thumbup:

Stumprrp
12-02-2007, 03:06 PM
if you look at all of the old time strongmen who for the most part were natural and alot of todays guys, they all seem in the 20-25% range of bodyfat to me.

mickyjune26
12-02-2007, 03:35 PM
if you look at all of the old time strongmen who for the most part were natural and alot of todays guys, they all seem in the 20-25% range of bodyfat to me.

Agreed. They are big men.

I am going to get bigger than them and eat their children for breakfast.

Stumprrp
12-02-2007, 03:59 PM
i would like to be that size one day, but not for a long period of time, most of them died early, and dont argue rhodes, they did, lol.

see you next friday btw, you and vinny, coming down!

jdeity
12-02-2007, 05:14 PM
****! I wish I was still up in MA, I'd like to see Mr. Rhodes in person!! LOL that would be quite funny, **** just seeing the faces of random usernames would be pretty interesting.

VikingWarlord
12-02-2007, 07:21 PM
This thread put an interesting hypothetical in my head. It may have already happened somewhere, but I wondered about it.

The lean mass you have in your body is what's going to move weight, since you can't contract fat, obviously.

If mass moves mass, then it doesn't really matter what that is above and beyond the muscle. If a lean person were to wear a 25lb weighted vest, he would be increasing his mass, and it would be 25lbs of dead weight just the same as fat. Would this help the person move more weight just because he is now more massive?

I'd like to see someone try that.

RhodeHouse
12-02-2007, 07:27 PM
This thread put an interesting hypothetical in my head. It may have already happened somewhere, but I wondered about it.

The lean mass you have in your body is what's going to move weight, since you can't contract fat, obviously.

If mass moves mass, then it doesn't really matter what that is above and beyond the muscle. If a lean person were to wear a 25lb weighted vest, he would be increasing his mass, and it would be 25lbs of dead weight just the same as fat. Would this help the person move more weight just because he is now more massive?

I'd like to see someone try that.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The fat on your body will increase your leverages. A weighted vest will just add weight. We are now dumber for having read that. May god have mercy on your soul.

The funny part of this whole thing is, it's the skinny guys crying about adding fat. None of you have been there to know what you're talking about. Your opinions come from the small side of things. Get strong. Then put some real size on and tell me that being big, and adding some good ole fat doesn't make you stronger.

You guys blow my mind. If I had hair, I'd pull it out because of some of this $hit

CrazyK
12-02-2007, 07:46 PM
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The fat on your body will increase your leverages. A weighted vest will just add weight. We are now dumber for having read that. May god have mercy on your soul.

The funny part of this whole thing is, it's the skinny guys crying about adding fat. None of you have been there to know what you're talking about. Your opinions come from the small side of things. Get strong. Then put some real size on and tell me that being big, and adding some good ole fat doesn't make you stronger.

You guys blow my mind. If I had hair, I'd pull it out because of some of this $hitlol yeah that was pretty bad. It's similar in football as well, the extra fat offensive lineman carry literally makes them much stronger on the field.

elitepler
12-02-2007, 07:47 PM
Although Rhodes has strange way of explaining things there is truth to his statements if better defined.

I think many of you are thinking that he is speaking of putting on just nasty flabby fat. When you look at a 300-350lb guy thats does no exercise and one that is a pler, there is a huge difference. Even when a pler eats his way to the next weight class he does so while training very hard. He is most likely doing ME, DE and GPP. So that extra weight is alot of muscle too. Muscle moves mass, and fat along with muscle moves mass and both help leverages.

Notice Rhodes never said fat moves mass. Even with the crapiest diet, a guy that hits heavy ass weights is going to gain good mass also. He will also increase his bodyfat, but thats to be expected.

You actually can't really argue this fact. Even super lean ripped plers like Sam Byrd, squat bigger when they are heavier. Even when just going from 198 to 220 or 242. The extra mass helps him move the extra mass. It does not have to blubbery fat, it can be mass you add by eating your way to the next weight class. Or course it will come easier if you eat calorie dense foods, than if your living on skinless chicken and shakes.

I myself like being a 242 and eat fairly healthy, but I have Little Caesers pizza and beer after every squat session on fridays and go to fast food places whenever I really feel like it. I beleive my eating healthy 80% of the time allows me to enjoy what I want to enjoy.

In the end mass does help move mass, I have never seen a persons total go down by moving UP a weight class.

Sensei
12-02-2007, 07:51 PM
The lean mass you have in your body is what's going to move weight, since you can't contract fat, obviously.

If mass moves mass, then it doesn't really matter what that is above and beyond the muscle. If a lean person were to wear a 25lb weighted vest, he would be increasing his mass, and it would be 25lbs of dead weight just the same as fat. Would this help the person move more weight just because he is now more massive?

I'd like to see someone try that.You are really, really missing the point... The "you can't flex fat" argument just doesn't hold water when you are talking about squatting and benching. It's not simply a matter of flexing your muscles - it's about leverages and energy absorption. If you have upwards of a thousand pounds bearing down on you, do you want to weigh more or less? A poor analogy perhaps, but look at any mammal alpha male in the wild - they are NOT going to be "cut".

RhodeHouse
12-02-2007, 07:59 PM
Although Rhodes has strange way of explaining things there is truth to his statements if better defined.

I think many of you are thinking that he is speaking of putting on just nasty flabby fat. When you look at a 300-350lb guy thats does no exercise and one that is a pler, there is a huge difference. Even when a pler eats his way to the next weight class he does so while training very hard. He is most likely doing ME, DE and GPP. So that extra weight is alot of muscle too. Muscle moves mass, and fat along with muscle moves mass and both help leverages.

Notice Rhodes never said fat moves mass. Even with the crapiest diet, a guy that hits heavy ass weights is going to gain good mass also. He will also increase his bodyfat, but thats to be expected.

You actually can't really argue this fact. Even super lean ripped plers like Sam Byrd, squat bigger when they are heavier. Even when just going from 198 to 220 or 242. The extra mass helps him move the extra mass. It does not have to blubbery fat, it can be mass you add by eating your way to the next weight class. Or course it will come easier if you eat calorie dense foods, than if your living on skinless chicken and shakes.

I myself like being a 242 and eat fairly healthy, but I have Little Caesers pizza and beer after every squat session on fridays and go to fast food places whenever I really feel like it. I beleive my eating healthy 80% of the time allows me to enjoy what I want to enjoy.

In the end mass does help move mass, I have never seen a persons total go down by moving UP a weight class.

Yup! He said it better than me. Read this answer instead of mine.

dbc3po
12-02-2007, 08:14 PM
damn elite pler well said. This thread makes me want to eat a triple combo form Wendy's

Lones Green
12-02-2007, 08:21 PM
Although Rhodes has strange way of explaining things there is truth to his statements if better defined.

I think many of you are thinking that he is speaking of putting on just nasty flabby fat. When you look at a 300-350lb guy thats does no exercise and one that is a pler, there is a huge difference. Even when a pler eats his way to the next weight class he does so while training very hard. He is most likely doing ME, DE and GPP. So that extra weight is alot of muscle too. Muscle moves mass, and fat along with muscle moves mass and both help leverages.

Notice Rhodes never said fat moves mass. Even with the crapiest diet, a guy that hits heavy ass weights is going to gain good mass also. He will also increase his bodyfat, but thats to be expected.

You actually can't really argue this fact. Even super lean ripped plers like Sam Byrd, squat bigger when they are heavier. Even when just going from 198 to 220 or 242. The extra mass helps him move the extra mass. It does not have to blubbery fat, it can be mass you add by eating your way to the next weight class. Or course it will come easier if you eat calorie dense foods, than if your living on skinless chicken and shakes.

I myself like being a 242 and eat fairly healthy, but I have Little Caesers pizza and beer after every squat session on fridays and go to fast food places whenever I really feel like it. I beleive my eating healthy 80% of the time allows me to enjoy what I want to enjoy.

In the end mass does help move mass, I have never seen a persons total go down by moving UP a weight class.

i'm going to copy and paste this every time someone asks about eating mcdonalds, or "mass moving mass." very well said man.

VikingWarlord
12-02-2007, 08:22 PM
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The fat on your body will increase your leverages. A weighted vest will just add weight. We are now dumber for having read that. May god have mercy on your soul.

How does one form of dead weight increase leverage but another doesn't? Wouldn't more muscle be more desirable than more fat? It's also bodyweight and the same amount of lean mass or fat mass should lend the same amount of leverage. The point of the entire thread was not whether it happens, because it's obvious that it does, but why it happens.


You are really, really missing the point... The "you can't flex fat" argument just doesn't hold water when you are talking about squatting and benching. It's not simply a matter of flexing your muscles - it's about leverages and energy absorption. If you have upwards of a thousand pounds bearing down on you, do you want to weigh more or less? A poor analogy perhaps, but look at any mammal alpha male in the wild - they are NOT going to be "cut".

I grant that's an extreme devil's advocate scenario I put up and realize it's not completely applicable, but I'm incapable of accepting answers like "it just does". I understand perfectly. What I'm getting at is the same thing jdeity was originally.

I'm honestly looking for a bio-mechanical explanation as to WHY, not to be a dick, but because it's a genuinely interesting question. It may be about energy absorption and leverages, but what about them? Leverage is defined as a factor by which a lever multiplies an applied force. The only thing I can come up with is that more mass helps with weight distribution (related to energy absorption), but I still can't picture how it adds a mechanical advantage. I've been through university-level physics, I'm sure I'd understand the explanation if someone can give it.

Also, for what it's worth, I've never been "skinny" in my life. When I was PLing in high school, I was 282 at about 19-20% at the end of my senior year.

dbc3po
12-02-2007, 08:39 PM
Some of you are really over thinking this. Putting on a weight vest is totally different your argument for doing that isnt very bright. think about it like this your saying by putting on a 25 lb weight vest then your are upping your mass. Its an external weight. Saying that a weight vest would add extra mass to help you lift more is like saying putting 25 more lbs on a bar would make a lift easier. DOnt argue if you read how you phrased your question then you will see why Im saying this.

Yes lean mass is preferred but when your goal is to lift the most possible weight then you half to accept the fact that your not gonna be able to put on just lean mass. Look at body builders in their bulking phases its not all lean mass they are putting on thats why they have a contest prep to cut as much fat and water as they can while trying to maintain as much muscle as they can. When your powerlifitng doing the cardio it take s to cut fat and stay at real low Bf% isn't worth it. It will zap your strength in a hurry. I think allot of people on here are just over thinking it.

If your goal is to be strong then do what it takes to get there you will half to sacrifice the body building look to get there. But if your goal is to look cut then you will loose out on being as strong as possible. Perfect example look at Chuck V. If you look when he was 220 he carried the six pack but as he has moved up in weight classes he no longer carries the 6 pack and look at his total its up nearly 400 lbs his squat is up over 125lbs his bench is up and his deadlift is up. Hell look at Donnie Thompson believe it or not he competed in the 220's at one point but his goal was to be the very best so he has done what it takes for him to get to that level. Don't believe me then go on a pure McDonald's diet for a month put on about 20 lbs and tell me what happens to your lifts

chris mason
12-02-2007, 08:43 PM
- Intra-muscular fat stores. Improves the contractile element's leverage according to Fred Hatfield.
- When you add body fat you also add muscular body weight. Your body will not add purely fat. If you are resistance training the muscular deposition is enhanced in a relative sense.
- Increased girth can simply improve your leverage in certain lifts due to the physics of your body's alteration. For example, a big gut can act as a cushion and rebound mound when squatting.

VikingWarlord
12-02-2007, 08:49 PM
Some of you are really over thinking this. Putting on a weight vest is totally different your argument for doing that isnt very bright. think about it like this your saying by putting on a 25 lb weight vest then your are upping your mass. Its an external weight. Saying that a weight vest would add extra mass to help you lift more is like saying putting 25 more lbs on a bar would make a lift easier. DOnt argue if you read how you phrased your question then you will see why Im saying this.

Yes lean mass is preferred but when your goal is to lift the most possible weight then you half to accept the fact that your not gonna be able to put on just lean mass. Look at body builders in their bulking phases its not all lean mass they are putting on thats why they have a contest prep to cut as much fat and water as they can while trying to maintain as much muscle as they can. When your powerlifitng doing the cardio it take s to cut fat and stay at real low Bf% isn't worth it. It will zap your strength in a hurry. I think allot of people on here are just over thinking it.

If your goal is to be strong then do what it takes to get there you will half to sacrifice the body building look to get there. But if your goal is to look cut then you will loose out on being as strong as possible. Perfect example look at Chuck V. If you look when he was 220 he carried the six pack but as he has moved up in weight classes he no longer carries the 6 pack and look at his total its up nearly 400 lbs his squat is up over 125lbs his bench is up and his deadlift is up. Hell look at Donnie Thompson believe it or not he competed in the 220's at one point but his goal was to be the very best so he has done what it takes for him to get to that level. Don't believe me then go on a pure McDonald's diet for a month put on about 20 lbs and tell me what happens to your lifts

It's been established that more body mass + hard training = big lifts, so everyone can stop racking their brains trying to figure out how to rephrase that basic tenet of powerlifting.

That said, none of these responses answer the questions WHY and HOW does it affect leverages and energy absorption. Maybe I'm looking for a mathematical formula, maybe a force diagram, or anything else that will explain the WHY and HOW behind the WHAT.

I won't bother to respond again unless someone can provide a bio-mechanical explanation, because this thing is just going around in circles and I'm sure everyone has better things to do than stay on this ferris wheel.

VikingWarlord
12-02-2007, 08:52 PM
- Intra-muscular fat stores. Improves the contractile element's leverage according to Fred Hatfield.
- When you add body fat you also add muscular body weight. Your body will not add purely fat. If you are resistance training the muscular deposition is enhanced in a relative sense.
- Increased girth can simply improve your leverage in certain lifts due to the physics of your body's alteration. For example, a big gut can act as a cushion and rebound mound when squatting.

Ah, an actual source has been named. This is now a point to start looking, maybe an answer will be found.

dbc3po
12-02-2007, 09:00 PM
Okay heres your mechanical answer. In the squat a bigger gut makes you more stable. Its like a giant oak tree with a big base its will take a helluva storm to knock it down, where as a smaller based tree will snap easily. Look at the biggest squatters out there Lewis, Yarmbush, thompson, Bolton, Bartely, Childress, and the list goes on they all have a big core. And yes y0our bell can act and give you rebound as you push out of the hole.

In the bench you shorten your range of motion with a bigger belly. It also aids in the pause portion of the lift by serving as a cushion. When you go to press when you push off your legs then you get a bit of rebound from it as you take the weight off your lower body and move back towards the head.

The deadlift is the only real lift that a big gut can get in the way. But I personally feel that is caused by the setup being sacrifice to get more air.

A popular saying is the easiest way to get stronger is to gain weight.

bigmoney
12-02-2007, 10:17 PM
All I can say is that when I gained weight (fat too) my squat went way up. There seems to be much truth to the argument.

Indifference
12-02-2007, 10:30 PM
I just ate a triple whopper with cheese combo in honor of this thread.

VikingWarlord
12-03-2007, 05:01 AM
Okay heres your mechanical answer. In the squat a bigger gut makes you more stable. Its like a giant oak tree with a big base its will take a helluva storm to knock it down, where as a smaller based tree will snap easily. Look at the biggest squatters out there Lewis, Yarmbush, thompson, Bolton, Bartely, Childress, and the list goes on they all have a big core. And yes y0our bell can act and give you rebound as you push out of the hole.

In the bench you shorten your range of motion with a bigger belly. It also aids in the pause portion of the lift by serving as a cushion. When you go to press when you push off your legs then you get a bit of rebound from it as you take the weight off your lower body and move back towards the head.

The deadlift is the only real lift that a big gut can get in the way. But I personally feel that is caused by the setup being sacrifice to get more air.

A popular saying is the easiest way to get stronger is to gain weight.

So, in essence, I was right about load distribution. That's what causes stability in any structure, effectively balancing a load, be it static or dynamic.

The bench press was never the question, the shorter ROM was pretty obvious, plus the bulk of your bodyweight stays put and the weight moves. The original question was about the squat since you're moving both your body and the weight.

To be totally honest, the word leverage gets used so often, I'm not entirely certain a lot of people even know what it means. It's like it's just become industry jargon at this point.

WillKuenzel
12-03-2007, 05:27 AM
Think of a tree trunk. The taller trees are bigger. You want to add more weight across your shoulders, get bigger. The core has to be thick and strong in order to handle the weight.

You also have to understand the mentality of many of these guys, many of you don't so it's a useless thread, but even at 20%, most of these guys are more defined that some of you at 10%. Some of the 275'ers and 308'ers might still have semi-visible abs. Getting bigger and adding 5 more pounds to anything is the goal. It's about how much you can lift. Until some of you understand that and actually attempt, you'll never know.

You can see the results happen with many of the lifters that try to cut weight. Take a look at lifters that cut weight and then see if they do meets where they don't worry about it. Many of them, still having the same LBM, will total more. LBM hasn't changed, but they did more. And don't talk about cutting weight and losing energy or strength, some of these guys have 48 hours to get it all back. So why did the guy that is carrying more "dead weight" just do better because he weighed more? We could explain it all day to many of you until we're blue in the face but until you do it, you'll never understand. Never.

vdizenzo
12-03-2007, 06:46 AM
Lift weights not books! As Jim Wendler says "Supertraining makes a great one-board." I read it, Jim's right!

Sensei
12-03-2007, 06:48 AM
So, in essence, I was right about load distribution. That's what causes stability in any structure, effectively balancing a load, be it static or dynamic.

The bench press was never the question, the shorter ROM was pretty obvious, plus the bulk of your bodyweight stays put and the weight moves. The original question was about the squat since you're moving both your body and the weight.This was the point about energy absorption, not being moved by the weight, and wanting to weigh more if you have a thousand pounds bearing down on you...

To be totally honest, the word leverage gets used so often, I'm not entirely certain a lot of people even know what it means. It's like it's just become industry jargon at this point.
For people lifting weights, "leverage" means being in a good position to lift a (heavy) weight, whether you are pushing, pulling, or levering it up. Not everyone took college physics, and probably can't give you a formula, but it's not that difficult to see where everyone is coming from is it?

jdeity
12-03-2007, 08:41 AM
The funny part of this whole thing is, it's the skinny guys crying about adding fat. None of you have been there to know what you're talking about. Your opinions come from the small side of things. Get strong.
:tuttut:

Rhodes, I don't know how many times I can possibly say this - not everyone's goal, even in the powerlifting subby, is competitive powerlifting at all costs.

I certainly want to be stronger. The only lift that I've even trained since getting my new gym that wasn't one of the big 3 (excluding stuff like box squats) is bent over bb rows.

However, my goal is not to compete. It's to become stronger. I have a faaaar way to go where I can increase strenght and keep my appearance the way I like it. When I start plateuaing (sp?) and simply cannot add more weight to my maxes w/o gaining appreciable bodyfat, then I'll have to make that choice - my guess is I'd start more gpp work and focus on endurance more instead of just becoming stronger.

So, again - not everyone who is interested in powerlifting is interested in moving as much weight as possible at the expense of everything. If I was, clearly I'd be eating far more and using gear - just like you do. I would be training with powerlifters who are competitive - just like you do.

But that's not what I want, it's to become stronger, and given my current frame, I have hundreds of pounds to add to my maxes that can be done without putting on a gut - do you see now?

RhodeHouse
12-03-2007, 08:43 AM
Thank you Vincent. Lift a f$%^ing weight and stop asking questions that have simple, real-world answers. If you want bio-mechanical evidence of the leveraged energy absorption rate of the motichondria? WHAT? Lift weights. Jesus Christ!

Chubrock
12-03-2007, 08:43 AM
:tuttut:

Rhodes, I don't know how many times I can possibly say this - not everyone's goal, even in the powerlifting subby, is competitive powerlifting at all costs.

I certainly want to be stronger. The only lift that I've even trained since getting my new gym that wasn't one of the big 3 (excluding stuff like box squats) is bent over bb rows.

However, my goal is not to compete. It's to become stronger. I have a faaaar way to go where I can increase strenght and keep my appearance the way I like it. When I start plateuaing (sp?) and simply cannot add more weight to my maxes w/o gaining appreciable bodyfat, then I'll have to make that choice - my guess is I'd start more gpp work and focus on endurance more instead of just becoming stronger.

So, again - not everyone who is interested in powerlifting is interested in moving as much weight as possible at the expense of everything. If I was, clearly I'd be eating far more and using gear - just like you do. I would be training with powerlifters who are competitive - just like you do.

But that's not what I want, it's to become stronger, and given my current frame, I have hundreds of pounds to add to my maxes that can be done without putting on a gut - do you see now?


Your original question was about training at all costs and about the effect on your total from getting large.

jdeity
12-03-2007, 08:46 AM
The point of the entire thread was not whether it happens, because it's obvious that it does, but why it happens.



:withstupi:

And, rhodes, regardless of what you think, I did not start this thread to fat-bash or any **** like that.

I do see how being thicker in the chest, even with fat, will help you increase a bench total.

I DID NOT see how having a gut would help in the squat, to me it seemed it'd be dead weight - similar to what viking mentioned - I figured it'd essentially be the same as strapping a weighted vest on, it's just extra mass to move up with yourself.

Thanks for the explanations as to WHY this extra fat helps from everyone whose feelings weren't hurt and actually gave explanations - this thread wasn't to try calling rhodes out for the whole rhodestown diet or anything, it was sheer curiousity, and has been answered and beaten to death by now :drooling:

jdeity
12-03-2007, 08:51 AM
Some of you are really over thinking this. Putting on a weight vest is totally different your argument for doing that isnt very bright.

what's not bright about it? For instance, I've always had a 6 pack, or most of one, my entire life. I've never ever been around any competitive powerlifters. So, when I started this thread, why on earth would I have presumed that a gut is any different than a chunk of dead weight strapped to the lifter? I should've just presumed there was leverage? I may've thought that way if they were keeping guts in lower weight classes, but they're heavy weights. I figured if they're heavy weights, they don't care how big they are and would want to overeat, as bodybuilders do, but even more so to make sure they don't miss any potential muscle gain.

Then I realized, if they have all this extra mass that is NOT muscle, aren't they carrying dead weight, and thus less bar weight, in their squats?

There's nothing dumb about that, I don't know why some of you think people would just automatically presume there's some kind of leverage / mechanical advantage here, especially people like me who've never had a gut or seen someone squat with one.

jdeity
12-03-2007, 08:58 AM
Your original question was about training at all costs and about the effect on your total from getting large.

no doubt - but it was a theoretical question from my perspective, I'm not aiming for that. I was curious about it, I don't recall a point in time where it became wrong to ask for clarification about something even if it's not my goal. My endurance currently sucks and I don't plan to change it just yet - does that bar me from ever asking a question about long distance running?






Powerlifting subforum has gotten far, far more interesting since rhodes has arrived, that cannot be argued. Threads in here get about as heated as race threads in general chat! I ask the simplest of simple questions (for a competitive powerlifter), about why extra (dead weight is what I *thought* it was) fat in the gut is NOT a disadvantage. Instead of this being a 2-post thread with the first reply being the simple explanation of why that weight in the gut provides stability, something to push off of when coming up with the weight, etc, it blossomed into 3 pages of trash talk, personal insults, etc.

WillKuenzel
12-03-2007, 09:04 AM
Do you really think you're the first person to think about this? If it were the bigger and leaner you are then the more weight you could move, don't you think there would be more guys like Justin Harris competing? Don't you think there could be more crossover between powerlifting and bodybuilding?

If your goal is just to be "strong" but not be the strongest then do whatever you think you should but there will always be guys out there stronger than you because they understand. I used to have the same mentality you do. Since I've competed, I don't. I'm slowly losing my 6 pack, in an attempt to lift more weight. You keep your six, I'll put more weight on the bar. I'll be stronger. You want to understand it, get under the bar.

My goals have changed. I want to be the strongest. I'll do what it takes. If that means I'm not as lean, then that's what it takes to get stronger.

You want to be lean and athletic, go for it. Learn from the guys that have been there and done that. If you're asking how to get a bigger squat and you're asking the guys that have been there and done that, are you going to doubt what they say. For every lean person you see that has squatted a grand, I'll show you 20 others that have a long time ago that wasn't lean. If all it took was just muscle to move it, don't you think that there would be stronger bodybuilders. You're missing the point that muscle isn't the only part of the equation.

RhodeHouse
12-03-2007, 09:25 AM
jdiety - I didn't insult anyone. Now, everything I say is an insult? Stop crying. For 100 years people have known to get stronger you need to get bigger. It should be common knowlegde that the bigger the belly, the better the leverages are. Apparently, common knowledge isn't common to everyone.

I have never said powerlift at all costs. NEVER. Again, one of you guys read into my statements and assume you have a clue as to what I'm talking about. Sometimes, you have to make choices that are, "at all costs" as you put it, to attain your goals. I've never said that you "have" to. No one is holding a gun to your head. My point has always been, there's a way, no matter what. That way may not be the healthiest or the best, but there's a way. What are YOU willing to do to get there?

As far as your goals and everyone else's goals. REALLY? I never guessed people did this for fun. You talk to me like I'm stupid and don't realize that everyone doesn't have the same goals or mentality. REALLY?

You asked a question of me. I answered. If you don't like it, I don't care. You got an answer. It just so happens, that I'm right. Yay me! Then, people come on here with weight vest scenarios and all that other bull$hit. It's like you wanna try to stump me so you can tell me how stupid I am. I believe your original question was legit, but some of the $hit that followed is some of the most ridiculous stuff I've heard in a long time. Add a weight vest, that'll improve leverages. I want boi-mechanical blah, blah, blah. That stuff is stupid and should be treated as such. Sorry to offend your internet feelings, but come on. You asked a question - got an answer that you didn't like - and proceeded to try and stump me or prove me wrong...

I rip on stupidity and things that are just ridiculous. Everyone, including me, does stupid $hit and it's my duty to call you out on being a jackass. If you don't like it or can't handle it, WHAH!

bill
12-03-2007, 09:31 AM
Not to insult anyone but your ever arm wrestler a big fat guy. There USUALLY pretty good at armwrestling even if they can't bench 200 lbs. It just is like that.

jdeity
12-03-2007, 09:34 AM
What are YOU willing to do to get there?
I'm not trying to get there - dunno how many times I can say that. Just because I don't aspire to be a competitive powerlifter does not mean your sport doesn't fascinate me, or that I don't have questions about it.

You asked a question - got an answer that you didn't like - and proceeded to try and stump me or prove me wrong...

And the answers off the bat were not explanatory, they were 'that's the way it is, end of story'. I was just looking for an explanation of WHY, which I've now gotten. I wasn't trying to stump you, or as you said earlier, rip on being overweight. If I came across that way it wasn't intended, though looking at the way I posted it I have no idea how you'd get that impression.

Question was simple, it was *finally* answered in a way that made logical sense and didn't require me to take an answer of 'cuz it does' on faith. It's not whether I believe your 'cuz it does' or I don't, it's because I'm curious as to WHY, not IF.

dbc3po
12-03-2007, 09:46 AM
j deity you will never get this.. It is dumb as hell to think a weight vest will increase your leverage. Its an external force bearing down you just like adding extra weight on the bar. Look at Chris masons response right after that about fat around muscle. Look I understand your goal is to be strong and maintain a lean appearance but for me and people like Rhodes its about numbers and doing what it takes to get those numbers.

jdeity
12-03-2007, 10:12 AM
dbc3po - you're wrong, I do get this - I got it on the last page, this has been a pointless back and forth for many, many posts now, the reasons have been explained.

Darracq
12-03-2007, 10:55 AM
:tuttut:

Rhodes, I don't know how many times I can possibly say this - not everyone's goal, even in the powerlifting subby, is competitive powerlifting at all costs.

I certainly want to be stronger. The only lift that I've even trained since getting my new gym that wasn't one of the big 3 (excluding stuff like box squats) is bent over bb rows.

However, my goal is not to compete. It's to become stronger. I have a faaaar way to go where I can increase strenght and keep my appearance the way I like it. When I start plateuaing (sp?) and simply cannot add more weight to my maxes w/o gaining appreciable bodyfat, then I'll have to make that choice - my guess is I'd start more gpp work and focus on endurance more instead of just becoming stronger.

So, again - not everyone who is interested in powerlifting is interested in moving as much weight as possible at the expense of everything. If I was, clearly I'd be eating far more and using gear - just like you do. I would be training with powerlifters who are competitive - just like you do.

But that's not what I want, it's to become stronger, and given my current frame, I have hundreds of pounds to add to my maxes that can be done without putting on a gut - do you see now?



You are slowing your gains but not taking in excess calories, Who cares if you have a little gut you can get rid of that pretty easy,

RhodeHouse
12-03-2007, 12:18 PM
What are YOU willing to do to get there?
I'm not trying to get there - dunno how many times I can say that. Just because I don't aspire to be a competitive powerlifter does not mean your sport doesn't fascinate me, or that I don't have questions about it.

You asked a question - got an answer that you didn't like - and proceeded to try and stump me or prove me wrong...

And the answers off the bat were not explanatory, they were 'that's the way it is, end of story'. I was just looking for an explanation of WHY, which I've now gotten. I wasn't trying to stump you, or as you said earlier, rip on being overweight. If I came across that way it wasn't intended, though looking at the way I posted it I have no idea how you'd get that impression.

Question was simple, it was *finally* answered in a way that made logical sense and didn't require me to take an answer of 'cuz it does' on faith. It's not whether I believe your 'cuz it does' or I don't, it's because I'm curious as to WHY, not IF.

I wasn't talking about you specifically. It always ends up like this when I deal with you and a few others. Do whatever the F$%K you want. I don't care. If you don't like my answer, I don't care. Your lifting is of no consequence to me. Have fun.

sharkall2003
12-03-2007, 01:33 PM
You are slowing your gains but not taking in excess calories, Who cares if you have a little gut you can get rid of that pretty easy,

Someone with even a very minute amount of "research" in nutrition could have figured that out by now. However, eating nonstop is not necessarily going to give you more gains. There may even be a point in which you have too high a fat/muscle ratio that you get saggy man-boobs and a huge tub of lard for a belly. In that case you might be hindering yourself. You need to look at everything as a whole.

Sensei
12-03-2007, 02:19 PM
This thread is absolute idiocy... It is another downward spiraling worthless turd of a thread because people just refuse to open their minds to the possibility they might not understand something they haven't experienced... Read the responses again without emotion and maybe you'll get it. Read the "Big Boy's Menu Plan" thread again without emotion and maybe you'll get it. If not, just find some other thread to knitpick.

jdeity
12-03-2007, 02:22 PM
You are slowing your gains but not taking in excess calories, Who cares if you have a little gut you can get rid of that pretty easy,

I never ever said I wasn't taking excess calories. There's a certain amount of calories needed to function. A certain excess needed to accomodate anabolism. Any excess past that is stored as fat.

I eat to gain muscle, not to overshoot like crazy for a good deal of fat gain, it's what works for me.

Isaac Wilkins
12-03-2007, 02:24 PM
The excess fat helps as follows:

1) Better leverage: You've got more tissue, lean or otherwise. That simply improves your leverage for squatting and benching. Incidently, a lot of guys lose their deadlift when they gain a bunch of weight for the same reason: They can't get in as good a position to start with. You'll see a lot more shredded great deadlifters than great squatters.

2) As someone said, tighter equipment fit. Sure, you could get a bigger shirt, but that spongy stuff is going to squeeze into the cracks a little better and fill it out.

Here's your biggie:

3) Excess calories: Yes, it matters. These guys are always in caloric excess. That's a favorable environment for them to gain an extra ounce of muscle, hold a little extra glycogen, lubricate and cushion their joints, or have optimal hormone profiles. Yes, it matters even if they have some synthetic help there. In theory you could exactly manipulate calories to be your optimal amount for all of these things and maintain no fat gain. In practice it won't happen. In order to gain every bit of muscle possible and the strength with it then you need to put on fat, even at a 1:4 muscle:fat ratio eventually.

jdeity
12-03-2007, 02:24 PM
This thread is absolute idiocy... It is another downward spiraling worthless turd of a thread because people just refuse to open their minds to the possibility they might not understand something they haven't experienced... Read the responses again without emotion and maybe you'll get it. Read the "Big Boy's Menu Plan" thread again without emotion and maybe you'll get it. If not, just find some other thread to knitpick.

agreed - like I said my original question has been answered like a hundred times, but hey, let's see how many times we can rephrase this and keep this alive cuz, I dunno, it seems everyone's having fun :disagree:

vdizenzo
12-03-2007, 02:43 PM
This is not even remotely fun. It's annoying. There are those that like to argue and there are those that like to be insanely strong. I know which category I fall under.

TommyBoy
12-03-2007, 02:58 PM
Jon Paul would have lost against OD if it were not for that stupid ass fridge run.I was devastated when OD lost.

Agreed. They are big men.

I am going to get bigger than them and eat their children for breakfast.Very good plan.

see you next friday btw, you and vinny, coming down!They're going to initiate you with some blue heat and a vacuum cleaner in the change room....watch out...

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The fat on your body will increase your leverages. A weighted vest will just add weight. We are now dumber for having read that. May god have mercy on your soul.

The funny part of this whole thing is, it's the skinny guys crying about adding fat. None of you have been there to know what you're talking about. Your opinions come from the small side of things. Get strong. Then put some real size on and tell me that being big, and adding some good ole fat doesn't make you stronger.

You guys blow my mind. If I had hair, I'd pull it out because of some of this $hitYou preach the truth oh wise one.

Although Rhodes has strange way of explaining things there is truth to his statements if better defined.

I think many of you are thinking that he is speaking of putting on just nasty flabby fat. When you look at a 300-350lb guy thats does no exercise and one that is a pler, there is a huge difference. Even when a pler eats his way to the next weight class he does so while training very hard. He is most likely doing ME, DE and GPP. So that extra weight is alot of muscle too. Muscle moves mass, and fat along with muscle moves mass and both help leverages.

Notice Rhodes never said fat moves mass. Even with the crapiest diet, a guy that hits heavy ass weights is going to gain good mass also. He will also increase his bodyfat, but thats to be expected.

You actually can't really argue this fact. Even super lean ripped plers like Sam Byrd, squat bigger when they are heavier. Even when just going from 198 to 220 or 242. The extra mass helps him move the extra mass. It does not have to blubbery fat, it can be mass you add by eating your way to the next weight class. Or course it will come easier if you eat calorie dense foods, than if your living on skinless chicken and shakes.

I myself like being a 242 and eat fairly healthy, but I have Little Caesers pizza and beer after every squat session on fridays and go to fast food places whenever I really feel like it. I beleive my eating healthy 80% of the time allows me to enjoy what I want to enjoy.

In the end mass does help move mass, I have never seen a persons total go down by moving UP a weight class.Very very well said.

You are really, really missing the point... The "you can't flex fat" argument just doesn't hold water when you are talking about squatting and benching. It's not simply a matter of flexing your muscles - it's about leverages and energy absorption. If you have upwards of a thousand pounds bearing down on you, do you want to weigh more or less? A poor analogy perhaps, but look at any mammal alpha male in the wild - they are NOT going to be "cut".This guys is smart.

This thread makes me want to eat a triple combo form Wendy'sMe 2.
- Intra-muscular fat stores. Improves the contractile element's leverage according to Fred Hatfield.
- When you add body fat you also add muscular body weight. Your body will not add purely fat. If you are resistance training the muscular deposition is enhanced in a relative sense.
- Increased girth can simply improve your leverage in certain lifts due to the physics of your body's alteration. For example, a big gut can act as a cushion and rebound mound when squatting.Well said Dr. Mason.

I just ate a triple whopper with cheese combo in honor of this thread.Me 2.
Lift weights not books! As Jim Wendler says "Supertraining makes a great one-board." I read it, Jim's right!LOL!
This was the point about energy absorption, not being moved by the weight, and wanting to weigh more if you have a thousand pounds bearing down on you...

For people lifting weights, "leverage" means being in a good position to lift a (heavy) weight, whether you are pushing, pulling, or levering it up. Not everyone took college physics, and probably can't give you a formula, but it's not that difficult to see where everyone is coming from is it?S m r t.

jdeity
12-03-2007, 06:04 PM
This is not even remotely fun. It's annoying. There are those that like to argue and there are those that like to be insanely strong. I know which category I fall under.

I fully agree, I thought the sarcasm was overflowing in that post, apparently wasn't :drooling:

CrazyK
12-03-2007, 08:35 PM
I never ever said I wasn't taking excess calories. There's a certain amount of calories needed to function. A certain excess needed to accomodate anabolism. Any excess past that is stored as fat.

I eat to gain muscle, not to overshoot like crazy for a good deal of fat gain, it's what works for me.Mind posting some pics of your tremendous physique? Or some videos of your numbers? I'd like to see how well this worked for you.

jdeity
12-04-2007, 06:56 AM
This thread is completely pointless now that everything's already been answered.

I never said I have a tremendous physique (which I presume you mean to be a big powerlifting physique - which I clearly don't have as I already mentioned a six pack), although I do very much love my physique and what I've done with it. But showing a good fitness physique to a powerlifting bunch in the midst of this piss war will not end well for me unless I look like a powerlifter - which I never claimed to nor do I want to - so why would I post?

If there is/was a valid reason I'd post - hell rhodes knows what I look like, and he'll tell you I'm a skinny punk. On the other hand, any time my picture comes up I'll have several pm's hit me that day asking me what my routine, diet, or supplements are. Very clearly people have different goals, I'm not gonna show a good fitness physique to a powerlifting crowd in the middle of a thread like this to prove myself.





About videos, I've never videotaped a lift in my life. Maybe when my maxes are 100% higher than they currently are I'll have a reason to need video taping, or if I had questions on my form I couldn't address on my own.

Mike G
12-04-2007, 07:33 AM
I never said I have a tremendous physique (which I presume you mean to be a big powerlifting physique - which I clearly don't have as I already mentioned a six pack), although I do very much love my physique and what I've done with it. But showing a good fitness physique to a powerlifting bunch in the midst of this piss war will not end well for me unless I look like a powerlifter - which I never claimed to nor do I want to - so why would I post?


But you said your way works for you and now you won't back that up. I've seen one small picture of your back that I think got removed. If your way works for your goals, why not post something up instead of telling everyone, constantly, that you have a six pack. I would like to see the results of your routine. This isn't a bash on you, I just find it odd that you would say your way works and then not want to back it up. Even if you posted pics in the pic area, not in this thread. Out of curiosity, what are your numbers and how big are you? I've read a few posts that you wrestled at a fairly light weight and think I read you weigh around 140? Is that right, again not a bash on you, just asking since you seem to have things figured out for you and your goals.

garjagan
12-04-2007, 07:48 AM
or if I had questions on my form I couldn't address on my own.

Not to sound like I'm trying contradict you for the sake of it, but often to address your own form problems it is hugely helpful to be able to see yourself from an altered perspective.

Post some pics, you have every reason to. Some people will critisize but if you're convinced you have what you want and have strived for then why would you care?

jdeity
12-04-2007, 08:24 AM
But you said your way works for you and now you won't back that up. I've seen one small picture of your back that I think got removed. If your way works for your goals, why not post something up instead of telling everyone, constantly, that you have a six pack. I would like to see the results of your routine. This isn't a bash on you, I just find it odd that you would say your way works and then not want to back it up. Even if you posted pics in the pic area, not in this thread. Out of curiosity, what are your numbers and how big are you? I've read a few posts that you wrestled at a fairly light weight and think I read you weigh around 140? Is that right, again not a bash on you, just asking since you seem to have things figured out for you and your goals.

I'm currently a scratch under 150, I don't have any pics right now of me currently I have pics of me ~160 from earlier in the year.

In february I moved from MA to FL to start my career/company and missed many months of proper eating/training, and have just recently (maybe 3 weeks ago) gotten a new gym down here and am currently rebuilding my totals.

My figures at the moment completely suck and I don't even have max figures since I lift w/o a spotter or catch bars.

In february though (when I was heavier by 10lbs, maybe 15lbs max) my #'s were:
bench 285
dead 405
squat high 200's <can't recall exact figure, squat was my worst lift lol>


Pics are from when I was ~160 and are from earlier in the year, I'm now ~150.

jdeity
12-04-2007, 08:27 AM
Not to sound like I'm trying contradict you for the sake of it, but often to address your own form problems it is hugely helpful to be able to see yourself from an altered perspective.

Post some pics, you have every reason to. Some people will critisize but if you're convinced you have what you want and have strived for then why would you care?

I definitely don't have what I want, I want to be around 175ish and much stronger.

I don't really care, I just didn't want to post because I know 99% of the comments will be that I'm just a skinny twig, given which subforum this thread is taking place in.





About form stuff, I'm almost positive my form is great and doesn't leave any real issues, although as I said before I just got my new gym and am currently getting back into the swing of it, so right now I am still catching myself botching little things (elbows on bench is a major one for me right now, as is learning how to arch my back properly given that I'm doing incline benching and never really did that in the powerlifting positioning before).

Mike G
12-04-2007, 08:51 AM
I'm currently a scratch under 150, I don't have any pics right now of me currently I have pics of me ~160 from earlier in the year.

Pics are from when I was ~160 and are from earlier in the year, I'm now ~150.

You're so ghey. Just kidding, I think everyone realizes that we have different goals and it looks like you are working on yours. However, go eat something, you should weigh atleast 275 :hello:

I think the majority of issues in this subforum are a lot of people asking for specifics who don't powerlift. After reading a lot of posts from guys who have been in the game a long time and are highly respected, the powerlifting community is more of a "do what your told because we put the time in and know it works" and not a community that spends a lot of time on the reasons why it works, or going into specific detail. I can appreciate the idea of people wanting to know the why's, but I also appreciate the countless hours these guys have put in and the fact they are willing to share what they have learned through experience. I would much rather have a guy like Rhodes tell me to gain weight because it will help my total than a guy who can't move the weight tell me the mechanics of a lift.

That reminds me, Rhodes and Vinny, when I get back into a real routine, I want to come visit for a bench workout. I assume that open invite still stands and in the future I will be taking you up on it.

Darracq
12-04-2007, 08:52 AM
I definitely don't have what I want, I want to be around 175ish and much stronger.

I don't really care, I just didn't want to post because I know 99% of the comments will be that I'm just a skinny twig, given which subforum this thread is taking place in.





About form stuff, I'm almost positive my form is great and doesn't leave any real issues, although as I said before I just got my new gym and am currently getting back into the swing of it, so right now I am still catching myself botching little things (elbows on bench is a major one for me right now, as is learning how to arch my back properly given that I'm doing incline benching and never really did that in the powerlifting positioning before).


Well if your skinny your skinny,, what thread this is in makes no difference. I am skinny to but i dont agree with your thinking,

Paul Stagg
12-04-2007, 09:26 AM
It's pretty clear to me some people are struggling with the possibility that you might do different things with your diet depending on your goals, and that you might not look the same or lift the same or eat the same as people who don't share your goals.

It's pretty ****ing simple.

Wanna get big and strong? Gotta eat. A lot.

Wanna look good on the beach and have visible abs? Gotta diet down.

Is either goal superior to the other? No. But one of them is more applicable in this particular forum.