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Vicioustorms
12-02-2007, 05:50 AM
i just wanted to know because my brother said its bad for your liver or something? but i'm busy gaining weight and thats mostly what i eat...with peanut butter, eggs, corn beef....etc

:scratch:

dpdd
12-02-2007, 06:49 AM
I dont know if its unheathy,but it really does seem like to much bread to have in one day. Try and varie it up a little bit.

Chubrock
12-02-2007, 08:21 AM
I dont know if its unheathy,but it really does seem like to much bread to have in one day. Try and varie it up a little bit.


Why? If it fits, don't worry about it.

Bicster
12-02-2007, 08:35 AM
Very VERY risky. But I guess thats how you were raised.

Chubrock
12-02-2007, 08:43 AM
Huh?

Vicioustorms
12-02-2007, 09:05 AM
Very VERY risky. But I guess thats how you were raised.

wtf?

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
12-02-2007, 01:29 PM
The rule for bread is: The brown, the better.

That's a lot of friggin' bread, though. Bread isn't the greatest thing to eat on the planet and many of breads seem to contain a lot of high fructose corn syrup, so just be aware of the type of bread you're eating. You should be fine, though. I love bread. :thumbup:

Vicioustorms
12-02-2007, 01:32 PM
thanks i will try and vary it by eating rolls, crackers...etc

btw this is the bread i eat: http://www.sasko.co.za/baking/baking_prod_b2.html

AL_DA_GREAT
12-02-2007, 04:30 PM
a varried diet is the best. To much of one thing is never good.

RhodeHouse
12-02-2007, 07:32 PM
Whatever helps you get bigger

Invain
12-02-2007, 08:10 PM
Milk yo!

Why switch it up to crackers and rolls though? Unless you absolutely love bread I guess.

mc wb
12-04-2007, 09:43 AM
i just wanted to know because my brother said its bad for your liver or something? but i'm busy gaining weight and thats mostly what i eat...with peanut butter, eggs, corn beef....etc

:scratch:

Hi Viciousstorms,

What are your goals when you say you're "busy gaining weight"?

By weight, you probably mean you'd like to get some muscle, rather than fat? and probably stay healthy?

And as other posters have said, eating a loaf of bread is not a great way to bulk up. YOu need a variety of carbs: bread is one type, and best placed in the morning or early afternoon after a workout.

And if you're eating just oily protein sources like refined peanut butter and corn beef and bread, you're running the risk of bringing your intestines to a stand still.

you may also start to feel quite crappy because you're not getting enough of the nutrients and vitamins you need to keep your body functioning well.

Think about replacing the bread with some fruit and veg; think about introducing some healthy fat too: if you're weight lifting, think about drinking whole milk and having an apple instead of another slice of bread.

does that sound doable, or does the thought of eating veggies and fruit just turn you off?

best

dr mc

Vicioustorms
12-04-2007, 11:03 AM
thanks for advice. i usually eat about 12 slices everyday or sometimes 10. I drink alot of milk and eat about 2 apples a day, but i'm going to get more fruit like bananas and stuff.

Vicioustorms
12-04-2007, 11:06 AM
this is what i've eaten today...

oats
4 slices toast with corn beef, glass milk
two slices bread with two eggs, two slices ham, tomatoe
two slices peanut butter bread, apple, glass milk
4 slices bread with tuna
53g protein shake with milk
bacon and egg sandwich, glass milk

whiteman90909
12-04-2007, 03:56 PM
If it fits into your daily macros, go for it. Just try and consume more whole wheats.

Slim Schaedle
12-04-2007, 04:40 PM
YOu need a variety of carbs:

With the exceptions of vitamins, minerals, and fiber, why?

mc wb
12-05-2007, 04:23 AM
this is what i've eaten today...

oats
4 slices toast with corn beef, glass milk
two slices bread with two eggs, two slices ham, tomatoe
two slices peanut butter bread, apple, glass milk
4 slices bread with tuna
53g protein shake with milk
bacon and egg sandwich, glass milk

Hi sport,

The biggie missing here are cruciferous veggies - the greens etc - what once upon a time used to be called "ruffage" - it's great that you're adding bananas and apples. Apples especially are ok in fiber. But think about getting some greens into your plan, both for the nutrients they provide, and for their help in digesting everything you're putting into yourself.

Overall, are you happy with your gains, as well as with how you're feeling? Are you keeping track not just of your weight, but of your lean muscle mass vs BF% changes?

just a question.

Take care and happy training.

mc

Vicioustorms
12-05-2007, 04:38 AM
yes i'm happy with my gains and how I'm feeling and i'll take your advice about more veggies into consideration. i haven't measured my BF% or how much lean muscle mass i've gained. i can definietly see that i've gained muscle though...where can i measure my BF%?

mc wb
12-06-2007, 02:54 AM
yes i'm happy with my gains and how I'm feeling and i'll take your advice about more veggies into consideration. i haven't measured my BF% or how much lean muscle mass i've gained. i can definietly see that i've gained muscle though...where can i measure my BF%?

Well there's a bunch of measures for body fat - if you don't have calipers and a friend to help you take the measures, then the Navy Circumference method (http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/diet.html) is about the best one going in terms of percentage error. You use a tape measure for a couple spots: your neck below the adam's apple, your waist, your height and your current weight.

If you're really muscular these can be less accurate than skinfold measures, but give it a shot. It will give you a ball park. If you get really into this, you can pick up a set of calipers online pretty cheaply, do a seven or 12 site test, and get a far more accurate look at your progress.

One suggestion, though, is to keep a log of these measures to learn how your body reacts to different feeding and workout strategies. But again, to get a ball park, the navy circumference method should get you going

Way to go on your progress and good luck

mc

ps - how did you determine what to set for your "goal" weight? Does that mean you want to gain 15-20 pounds of lean muscle mass? in what time period?

Holto
12-06-2007, 12:22 PM
With the exceptions of vitamins, minerals, and fiber, why?

Please answer this...

Guido
12-06-2007, 12:44 PM
Bread is not the best thing to be eating a lot of at all. All carbs, and pretty high GI. Most of the weight you gain from eating bread will be fat.

jamrock
12-06-2007, 01:52 PM
dude, boil up some rice! you're going to get bored real fast. <sarcasm>But I guess at 150lbs in a few weeks you can switch it over to hamburgers and fries and still come up.</sarcasm>

smalls
12-06-2007, 02:22 PM
yes i'm happy with my gains and how I'm feeling and i'll take your advice about more veggies into consideration. i haven't measured my BF% or how much lean muscle mass i've gained. i can definietly see that i've gained muscle though...where can i measure my BF%?

You just answered your own question. You feel fine and are making progess, it's food, eat it. I mean if it was 12 fried twinkies you would have a point but your talking about 12-1600 cals from bread. It's no freakin big deal provided your overall protein intake and EFA's are in order.

Slim Schaedle
12-06-2007, 03:27 PM
Bread is not the best thing to be eating a lot of at all. All carbs, and pretty high GI. Most of the weight you gain from eating bread will be fat.

I disagree because this is largely individualistic.


Small example: The first time I bulked while actually tracking calories, my carbs sources were exclusively processed bagels and dextrose. Doing this, I gained muscle, but also became more cut than I have ever been without even trying.

Slim Schaedle
12-06-2007, 03:27 PM
Please answer this...

You're talking to mc wb, right ?

Con
12-06-2007, 03:47 PM
I disagree because this is largely individualistic.


Small example: The first time I bulked while actually tracking calories, my carbs sources were exclusively processed bagels and dextrose. Doing this, I gained muscle, but also became more cut than I have ever been without even trying.


Just curious, but was this a standard diet or something cyclical?

Slim Schaedle
12-06-2007, 04:12 PM
Just curious, but was this a standard diet or something cyclical?

At the time it was 3 meals of 90g carbs, pre post with 160g each, and bedtime with about 30-50g.

So, standard.

Holto
12-07-2007, 11:12 AM
You're talking to mc wb, right ?

Yeah bro. -1 point for me [sloppy post]

McIrish
12-10-2007, 07:23 PM
The biggie missing here are cruciferous veggies - the greens etc - what once upon a time used to be called "ruffage" - it's great that you're adding bananas and apples. Apples especially are ok in fiber. But think about getting some greens into your plan, both for the nutrients they provide, and for their help in digesting everything you're putting into yourself.



Yeah bro. -1 point for me [sloppy post]

Holt, I thought he did answer it (see above). While it's probably fine in the short run to slam down 10-12 slices of bread a day, you're really short-changing your health in the long run. Anti-oxidants, wealth of phytonutrients, etc. Just a thought.

I tend to think of the whole health thing holistically - probably have slower gains because of it, but to each his own...

Slim Schaedle
12-10-2007, 09:21 PM
Holt, I thought he did answer it (see above). While it's probably fine in the short run to slam down 10-12 slices of bread a day, you're really short-changing your health in the long run. Anti-oxidants, wealth of phytonutrients, etc. Just a thought.

I tend to think of the whole health thing holistically - probably have slower gains because of it, but to each his own...

Myself and Holto are questioning the advice to eat more variety of carbohydrates.


Advising the consumption of foods that contain numerous health benefits, such as fruits and vegetables, is much different than recomendation to eat those foods because of the "type" of carbohydrate.


Yes, it is picking on wording of the advice, but there is a difference.

I would certainly advise fruits and veggies be included no matter what the dietary goal.

Would I advise primarily fruits and veggies as a source of carbohydrate to maintain/refill glycogen stores and drive protein synthesis while bulking? Hell no.

That is not to say that someone can't bulk on lower carb/or even a fruit/veggie carb diet. However, getting an immense amount of calories and glucose (while keeping fructose in check) without bread, pasta, oats, etc is going to be difficult.

My original question to mc wb pertained to to the comment about a "variety of carbs" because it all gets converted to glucose in the end.

"A variety of carbs" is different than saying "a variety of carb-containing foods."

Vicioustorms
12-11-2007, 03:46 AM
so basically it's easier to get alot of carbohydrates from bread?

this is what i've had today and it's 12:45pm

oats with cornflakes
4 slices peanut butter with bread
two slices french toast
two eggs
protein shake

i am trying to eat more fruit and ive been eating alot of bananas and apples aswell as rice.

mc wb
12-11-2007, 11:47 AM
Myself and Holto are questioning the advice to eat more variety of carbohydrates.



My original question to mc wb pertained to to the comment about a "variety of carbs" because it all gets converted to glucose in the end.

"A variety of carbs" is different than saying "a variety of carb-containing foods."

I'm not sure what the point of the distinction is: there's very little real food that is either carb or protein only. When most of us talk about food sources that are carbs or protein or fats we're talking primarily made up of these things. So sadly i'm missing the point?

Also, i don't think anyone said that for bulking or any other phase when eating for that matter, one needs to cut our high GI foods like breads or pastas. Even on the anabolic diet, pasta is in there twice a week. As other posters have said, just go brown not white, when ingesting these foods.

The main reason folks tend to cut down on veggies during bulking is they get feeling "full" faster, with lower calories. BUT it's still really really important to get some of these foods even into a bulking phase for the vitamins AND the fiber. So reduce not eliminate, right?

One way to get lots of fiber and vitamins AND HI CARBS is to go for beans, legumes and quinoa. If you haven't tried it, quinoa is like a perfect food: part protein, part carb, hi cal, great fiber, tons of vitamins. awesome. Soya beans are also really tasty and have more nutrient properties than breads including also being a whole protein, and have that high cal effect for bulking (http://www.annecollins.com/diet_foods/soybeans.htm). If you don't like tofu or soya milk, don't worry: the beans don't taste like the other products. They're also a good fat source and slow digesting/hi energy compared with bread. So in other words, you can get more health bang for your caloric buck than bread only, or bread mainly by spreading your carbs around with beans/legumes, too. Just remember to slide some cruciferous veg in there, and your innards will be happier.

The one thing additionally to think about with respect to carbs is timing: books / papers on nutrient timing suggest having your carbs especially in the AM.

Also, no one's mentioned fat: fat is a really important component in again any eating phase, whether bulking or even getting cut. it's hard to make big strides without good fat sources. It's also hard to get lean without good fat strategies.

Again, i'd point to the article in this last week's t-nation for the new healthier eating approach to bulking/cutting (http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1835428). As it states, ironically, most of the foods associated with dieting are also great for bulkind - the ratios just shift.

Anyway, i'll leave you to read it.

Apologies for delay in replying - been on the road.

all the best,
mc

Vicioustorms
12-11-2007, 12:20 PM
Thanks that is really helpful i bookmarked it :D

smalls
12-11-2007, 02:47 PM
I'm not sure what the point of the distinction is: there's very little real food that is either carb or protein only. When most of us talk about food sources that are carbs or protein or fats we're talking primarily made up of these things. So sadly i'm missing the point?

Also, i don't think anyone said that for bulking or any other phase when eating for that matter, one needs to cut our high GI foods like breads or pastas. Even on the anabolic diet, pasta is in there twice a week. As other posters have said, just go brown not white, when ingesting these foods.

The main reason folks tend to cut down on veggies during bulking is they get feeling "full" faster, with lower calories. BUT it's still really really important to get some of these foods even into a bulking phase for the vitamins AND the fiber. So reduce not eliminate, right?

One way to get lots of fiber and vitamins AND HI CARBS is to go for beans, legumes and quinoa. If you haven't tried it, quinoa is like a perfect food: part protein, part carb, hi cal, great fiber, tons of vitamins. awesome. Soya beans are also really tasty and have more nutrient properties than breads including also being a whole protein, and have that high cal effect for bulking (http://www.annecollins.com/diet_foods/soybeans.htm). If you don't like tofu or soya milk, don't worry: the beans don't taste like the other products. They're also a good fat source and slow digesting/hi energy compared with bread. So in other words, you can get more health bang for your caloric buck than bread only, or bread mainly by spreading your carbs around with beans/legumes, too. Just remember to slide some cruciferous veg in there, and your innards will be happier.

The one thing additionally to think about with respect to carbs is timing: books / papers on nutrient timing suggest having your carbs especially in the AM.

Also, no one's mentioned fat: fat is a really important component in again any eating phase, whether bulking or even getting cut. it's hard to make big strides without good fat sources. It's also hard to get lean without good fat strategies.

Again, i'd point to the article in this last week's t-nation for the new healthier eating approach to bulking/cutting (http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1835428). As it states, ironically, most of the foods associated with dieting are also great for bulkind - the ratios just shift.

Anyway, i'll leave you to read it.

Apologies for delay in replying - been on the road.

all the best,
mc


I dont mean to be rude, but you really have to vary your response based on the person your addressing. There is not a single piece of information in that post that slim doesnt already have a firm understanding of.

I think the point your missing is that there is no reason to think a normal sized male human being cannot get all his necassary fiber and micronutrient requirments WHILE taking in 12-16 pieces of bread. I believe that is why people are questioning the advice to VARY carbohydrate sources. If it works for you goals and you get everything you need then WHY change. Looking at this overall diet he MAY be lacking in something, but just because you eat 16 peices of bread certainly doesnt mean you need to vary anything depending on the rest of what you eat. 16 peices of bread make up a relatively small portion of some of our diets.

Hell I very rarely eat vegatables on a bulk yet I get 10X the micro's and fiber than my vegatarian, organic, whole foods eating sister gets (whom I love, despite her silliness).
Obviously there are benefits to veggies, but there not the ones you addressed. And they still dont explain his need to vary anything.

Not saying it wasnt a helpfull post, just that it didnt prove your suggestion is all.

McIrish
12-11-2007, 03:52 PM
If you haven't tried it, quinoa is like a perfect food: part protein, part carb, hi cal, great fiber, tons of vitamins. awesome.

Yeah, quinoa is freaking FANTASTIC. It's nuttier than rice and complements really any fish/meat. I buy it in bulk at whole foods for $2/lb and a lb of that stuff lasts foreverrrrrrrrrrr.

Slim Schaedle
12-11-2007, 04:58 PM
I'm not sure what the point of the distinction is: there's very little real food that is either carb or protein only. When most of us talk about food sources that are carbs or protein or fats we're talking primarily made up of these things. So sadly i'm missing the point?

Also, i don't think anyone said that for bulking or any other phase when eating for that matter, one needs to cut our high GI foods like breads or pastas. Even on the anabolic diet, pasta is in there twice a week. As other posters have said, just go brown not white, when ingesting these foods.

The main reason folks tend to cut down on veggies during bulking is they get feeling "full" faster, with lower calories. BUT it's still really really important to get some of these foods even into a bulking phase for the vitamins AND the fiber. So reduce not eliminate, right?

One way to get lots of fiber and vitamins AND HI CARBS is to go for beans, legumes and quinoa. If you haven't tried it, quinoa is like a perfect food: part protein, part carb, hi cal, great fiber, tons of vitamins. awesome. Soya beans are also really tasty and have more nutrient properties than breads including also being a whole protein, and have that high cal effect for bulking (http://www.annecollins.com/diet_foods/soybeans.htm). If you don't like tofu or soya milk, don't worry: the beans don't taste like the other products. They're also a good fat source and slow digesting/hi energy compared with bread. So in other words, you can get more health bang for your caloric buck than bread only, or bread mainly by spreading your carbs around with beans/legumes, too. Just remember to slide some cruciferous veg in there, and your innards will be happier.

The one thing additionally to think about with respect to carbs is timing: books / papers on nutrient timing suggest having your carbs especially in the AM.

Also, no one's mentioned fat: fat is a really important component in again any eating phase, whether bulking or even getting cut. it's hard to make big strides without good fat sources. It's also hard to get lean without good fat strategies.

Again, i'd point to the article in this last week's t-nation for the new healthier eating approach to bulking/cutting (http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1835428). As it states, ironically, most of the foods associated with dieting are also great for bulkind - the ratios just shift.

Anyway, i'll leave you to read it.

Apologies for delay in replying - been on the road.

all the best,
mc

Again, I ask (for the third time), what field do you specialize in?


I am not going to address this post specifically, because as smalls mentioned ( :) ) I already know what you are talking about.

I am sure others on here know exactly what I was talking about in my previous post, even if you don't.

Con
12-11-2007, 08:33 PM
"A variety of carbs" is different than saying "a variety of carb-containing foods."


I am pretty sure I understand your meaning, but could your explain this? I simply cannot make it out for myself.

Slim Schaedle
12-11-2007, 10:19 PM
I am pretty sure I understand your meaning, but could your explain this? I simply cannot make it out for myself.

Carbohydrate...meaning polysaccharaide, many sugars, monosaccharide, one sugar...or essentially...glucose

This can start as several forms such as glycogen, cellulose, sucrose, frustose, maltose and the aformentioned glucose.

Some of those are intermediates and final products in pathways as well.

While those would be a variety of carbs, a variety of carb containing foods would be fruits, veggies, pasta, etc etc.



So, my original question to mc wb was: With the exception of vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals, fiber and whatever other health benefits (known or unknown) why must we eat a variety of carbs as he/she pointed out


YOu need a variety of carbs:

dr mc

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
12-11-2007, 11:10 PM
:lurk:

mc wb
12-12-2007, 04:16 AM
I dont mean to be rude, but you really have to vary your response based on the person your addressing. There is not a single piece of information in that post that slim doesnt already have a firm understanding of.


well, i'm not assuming that only your colleague will be reading a reply. i'm also using "you" in the plural casual sense rather than the more formal "one" for third person.





I think the point your missing is that there is no reason to think a normal sized male human being cannot get all his necassary fiber and micronutrient requirments WHILE taking in 12-16 pieces of bread.



as said yesterday, i don't think anyone said don't eat bread. i think the message was pretty clear that to eat ONLY bread as a source of carbs could be problematic in terms of missing other food components. Your pal already said this in what I thought was a joke when he said more or less in a one liner aside from vitamins and minerals why not eat just bread - i mean ya, that's right, eh? aside from all the other nutrients you'd be missing if you only ate bread, there's no issue.




I believe that is why people are questioning the advice to VARY carbohydrate sources. If it works for you goals and you get everything you need then WHY change. Looking at this overall diet he MAY be lacking in something, but just because you eat 16 peices of bread certainly doesnt mean you need to vary anything depending on the rest of what you eat.



i think we're in violent agreement, with large emphasis on "depending on the rest of what you eat." and from looking at our poster's initial diet, there were considerable nutrient gaps that could be addressed by adding in some fruit and greens.



16 peices of bread make up a relatively small portion of some of our diets.


dandy



Hell I very rarely eat vegatables on a bulk yet I get 10X the micro's and fiber than my vegatarian, organic, whole foods eating sister gets (whom I love, despite her silliness).


10X's?



Obviously there are benefits to veggies, but there not the ones you addressed.



oh?
so, nutrients, fiber, thermogenic effect, vitamins, rate of absorption etc are not the benefits? or are not the factors to consider when optimizing intake? what are they, then?




And they still dont explain his need to vary anything.


hmm. let me try again then: if you're eating a range of foods such that you're getting an appropriate range of nutrients for a healthy diet, whether bulking or not, that's grand. Such nutrient loading usually requires a variety of food sources. If you're getting your carbs only from bread it's possible that you're missing key nutrients; it's also possible that you're not optimizing (or one is not optimizing) nutrient loading. Hence the suggestion to vary sources (legumes, etc) to ensure that you do get (that one does get) the range of nutrients required to stay healthy and achieve your/one's goals.



Not saying it wasnt a helpfull post, just that it didnt prove your suggestion is all.

oh well.

mc

mc wb
12-12-2007, 04:17 AM
Thanks that is really helpful i bookmarked it :D

Ah super!

good luck with your progress and program.

take care

mc

smalls
12-12-2007, 11:12 AM
well, i'm not assuming that only your colleague will be reading a reply. i'm also using "you" in the plural casual sense rather than the more formal "one" for third person.




as said yesterday, i don't think anyone said don't eat bread. i think the message was pretty clear that to eat ONLY bread as a source of carbs could be problematic in terms of missing other food components. Your pal already said this in what I thought was a joke when he said more or less in a one liner aside from vitamins and minerals why not eat just bread - i mean ya, that's right, eh? aside from all the other nutrients you'd be missing if you only ate bread, there's no issue.



i think we're in violent agreement, with large emphasis on "depending on the rest of what you eat." and from looking at our poster's initial diet, there were considerable nutrient gaps that could be addressed by adding in some fruit and greens.



dandy



10X's?



oh?
so, nutrients, fiber, thermogenic effect, vitamins, rate of absorption etc are not the benefits? or are not the factors to consider when optimizing intake? what are they, then?




hmm. let me try again then: if you're eating a range of foods such that you're getting an appropriate range of nutrients for a healthy diet, whether bulking or not, that's grand. Such nutrient loading usually requires a variety of food sources. If you're getting your carbs only from bread it's possible that you're missing key nutrients; it's also possible that you're not optimizing (or one is not optimizing) nutrient loading. Hence the suggestion to vary sources (legumes, etc) to ensure that you do get (that one does get) the range of nutrients required to stay healthy and achieve your/one's goals.


oh well.

mc

You really dont need to be a prick about it, everyone was trying to discuss civilly. It just seems frustrating that you missed and still horribly missing the point. Do you think that fruits and vegatables are the only way to get "nutrients, fiber, thermogenic effect, vitamins, rate of absorption"? ALL THOSE BENEFITS CAN BE HAD FROM OTHER SOURCES, including. . . . bread. How do you not comprehend that, your still missing the only benefits veggies have over most any other foods.



And yes 10X, I have done the calculations long ago for a lame assignment. I also eat 5X as many calories, another issue you seem to ignore. Bodybuilders dont vary there diets, it doesnt mean that they dont get all their required nutritients. Some people are able to think past 5 fruits and veggies a day.

And you dont even know what type, brand, etc of bread that he is taking in, which again makes your suggestion premature.

-Superman-
12-12-2007, 12:24 PM
i just wanted to know because my brother said its bad for your liver or something? but i'm busy gaining weight and thats mostly what i eat...with peanut butter, eggs, corn beef....etc

:scratch:

I'm not sure why you are eating bread at all. Not sure what your goals are either but I assume to gain weight.

mc wb
12-13-2007, 03:30 AM
How do you not comprehend that, your still missing the only benefits veggies have over most any other foods.



Sport, i think i asked this in my reply: what is it you're saying is the benefit of veggies over most any other foods, then?

Of course nutrients etc found in veggies are found in other foods. It's about ratios of those nutrients, though, isn't it? for what you're trying to achieve Very few people would turn to whole wheat bread as a source of fiber, for example, if they needed to increase fiber - even though that kind of bread does have some fiber in it. They'd eat an apple or throw in some spinach because the fiber ratio in those foods is higher.

And if you note what i've written, i've not restricted suggestions to veggies alone, but included legumes as well for bulking. I've just never heard anyone argue so passionately against including whole foods in their diet to ensure a good nutrient balance. And as said, if you're getting all the nutrients you need - all the fiber, all the vitamins etc from your chosen food source, well good for you. End of discussion, eh?

Actually, i've sort of lost the plot here. So, yes i am mystified by what else is left: you say i've missed the ONLY benefit veggies have over other food sources, but you haven't explicitly said what that is. Ok. what is it?

I'm also suprised that you think my response comes across like i'm being a prick. I thought we were having a conversation. Sorry if that came across some other way.

Look forward to your reply,

best with your training
mc

ps
are those your legs in that picture by your name?

Slim Schaedle
12-13-2007, 08:55 AM
Sport, i think i asked this in my reply: what is it you're saying is the benefit of veggies over most any other foods, then?

Of course nutrients etc found in veggies are found in other foods. It's about ratios of those nutrients, though, isn't it? for what you're trying to achieve Very few people would turn to whole wheat bread as a source of fiber, for example, if they needed to increase fiber - even though that kind of bread does have some fiber in it. They'd eat an apple or throw in some spinach because the fiber ratio in those foods is higher.

And if you note what i've written, i've not restricted suggestions to veggies alone, but included legumes as well for bulking. I've just never heard anyone argue so passionately against including whole foods in their diet to ensure a good nutrient balance. And as said, if you're getting all the nutrients you need - all the fiber, all the vitamins etc from your chosen food source, well good for you. End of discussion, eh?


Actually, i've sort of lost the plot here. So, yes i am mystified by what else is left: you say i've missed the ONLY benefit veggies have over other food sources, but you haven't explicitly said what that is. Ok. what is it?

I'm also suprised that you think my response comes across like i'm being a prick. I thought we were having a conversation. Sorry if that came across some other way.

Look forward to your reply,

best with your training
mc

ps
are those your legs in that picture by your name?


Again, I ask (for the third time), what field do you specialize in?

4th.


Also....


So, my original question to mc wb was: With the exception of vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals, fiber and whatever other health benefits (known or unknown) why must we eat a variety of carbs as he/she pointed out

smalls
12-14-2007, 01:31 AM
Sport, i think i asked this in my reply: what is it you're saying is the benefit of veggies over most any other foods, then?

Of course nutrients etc found in veggies are found in other foods. It's about ratios of those nutrients, though, isn't it? for what you're trying to achieve Very few people would turn to whole wheat bread as a source of fiber, for example, if they needed to increase fiber - even though that kind of bread does have some fiber in it. They'd eat an apple or throw in some spinach because the fiber ratio in those foods is higher.

And if you note what i've written, i've not restricted suggestions to veggies alone, but included legumes as well for bulking. I've just never heard anyone argue so passionately against including whole foods in their diet to ensure a good nutrient balance. And as said, if you're getting all the nutrients you need - all the fiber, all the vitamins etc from your chosen food source, well good for you. End of discussion, eh?

Actually, i've sort of lost the plot here. So, yes i am mystified by what else is left: you say i've missed the ONLY benefit veggies have over other food sources, but you haven't explicitly said what that is. Ok. what is it?

I'm also suprised that you think my response comes across like i'm being a prick. I thought we were having a conversation. Sorry if that came across some other way.

Look forward to your reply,

best with your training
mc

ps
are those your legs in that picture by your name?


You sounded a little condescending in your post, if that was not your intention then I apolagize.

I was talking about the phytonutrient protective benefits that fruits and veggies offer, some of which are most likely only in veggies.

We pretty much agree that as long as your getting your nutrient and fiber needs then your good. I was just saying it's easier to do, even on a limited diet, than most people think. That's all, so we both get it and i'm pretty sure we can move on.

Yes, they are my legs. Keep in mind the picture is taken out of context. I am actually quite fat, and small. But at the time that picture was taken I WAS taking in lots of veggies (due to the reasons, you already mentioned above, so we defenitly agree there) Now I get very little veggies, yet I get more nutrients and fiber in my diet but no longer need the satiety that veggies give.

Holto
12-14-2007, 01:55 PM
4th.

:zipit:

mc wb
12-15-2007, 04:08 AM
You sounded a little condescending in your post, if that was not your intention then I apolagize.

not at all my intention, and we're cool




I was talking about the phytonutrient protective benefits that fruits and veggies offer, some of which are most likely only in veggies.

We pretty much agree that as long as your getting your nutrient and fiber needs then your good. I was just saying it's easier to do, even on a limited diet, than most people think. That's all, so we both get it and i'm pretty sure we can move on.


indeed.



Yes, they are my legs. Keep in mind the picture is taken out of context. I am actually quite fat, and small. But at the time that picture was taken I WAS taking in lots of veggies (due to the reasons, you already mentioned above, so we defenitly agree there) Now I get very little veggies, yet I get more nutrients and fiber in my diet but no longer need the satiety that veggies give.

Peace, sport. and best of the season to you.

mc

ps - in case anyone else is curious, here's a link about those phytonutrients (http://www.webmd.com/diet/phytonutrients-faq) mentioned by smalls.

Slim Schaedle
12-15-2007, 10:43 AM
not at all my intention, and we're cool



indeed.



Peace, sport. and best of the season to you.

mc

ps - in case anyone else is curious, here's a link about those phytonutrients (http://www.webmd.com/diet/phytonutrients-faq) mentioned by smalls.

For the 5th time, what field do you specialize in?

(you indicated you hold a PhD)

so_calmaxwell
12-15-2007, 05:57 PM
IN MY OPINION..

10-12 slices of bread is not bad or risky at all.. Stay away from the specialty breads... Plain cheap "wheat" is the best. Most are between 50-80 calories and 12-20 grams of carbs per slice.
12 @ 80 cal. and 20 grams of carbs = 960 calories and 240 grams of carbs
That is fine by anyone’s standards. Some guys intake as much at 600 grams of carbs on a routine basis for gain. Carbs are only bad for people who don't use them. You have a much higher chance of gaining fat from eating fat. Carbs are crucial to building muscle and directlly impact muscle gains.I don't want to get on anybody's bad side but most people think what other people tell them. In my opinion people play way too much into protein. I think its overrated. Not unimportant!.... but overated.
Oh and not to pick sides... but I didn't see anything about bread being his only nutrition or carb source. I saw a question asking if 10-12 slices of bread was healthy or risky.
Besides with today’s vitamins... well they have everything in a bottle now..

trim_jim
12-18-2007, 02:38 AM
For evertything you do, it must be in moderation. I think too much of that will give you trouble. Just try vegetables and fruits in your meal.