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BFGUITAR
01-17-2008, 10:42 PM
If a seasoned olympic lifter were to try squatting according to PLing rules what would the outcome be? Would they set records?

CrazyK
01-18-2008, 12:02 AM
I highly doubt it. Fred Hatfield exhibited this when he had a "squat off" with a russian gold meldalist heavyweight lifter and played with his squat weights.

However they certainly could compete and place well.

tomv
01-18-2008, 01:27 AM
Unequipped I think the OLY lifter would give them a fairly decent run for their money. I've seen a 94kg bloke (about 210lbs) DEEP squatting 240kg (528lbs) in a belt. Admittedly it was his PR but... that's still pretty dang good.

RhodeHouse
01-18-2008, 06:38 AM
No way in hell an Olympic lifter could keep up with a Powerlifter. They are 2 completely different techniques. And, the overall body strength of a OL doesn't compare with that of a PLer. No offense, but OL don't need to be that strong. It's a very technical sport. Technique wins out over brute strength in OL.

Apples and Oranges

deeder
01-18-2008, 07:18 AM
No way in hell an Olympic lifter could keep up with a Powerlifter. They are 2 completely different techniques. And, the overall body strength of a OL doesn't compare with that of a PLer. No offense, but OL don't need to be that strong. It's a very technical sport. Technique wins out over brute strength in OL.

Apples and Oranges

It's a different kind of strength for sure but you can't say they aren't strong. They need explosive strength whereas a power just needs to be ****ing strong.

I still agree though... I don't think the top oly lifters would do that well against the top powerlifters... The same could be said the other way though. I KNOW that the top powerlifters would do horrible against the top weightlifters in an oly lifting competition.

JHarris
01-18-2008, 08:02 AM
No way in hell an Olympic lifter could keep up with a Powerlifter. They are 2 completely different techniques. And, the overall body strength of a OL doesn't compare with that of a PLer. No offense, but OL don't need to be that strong. It's a very technical sport. Technique wins out over brute strength in OL.

Apples and Oranges

Nope. Technique wins out at lower levels over brute strength, but at the top levels, strength and speed are just as important, if not moreso than technique. Most international class olympic lifters have flawless technique.

I agree its apples to oranges in that the lifts are totally different. If you take all the equipment off a powerlifter and make them squat all the way down, I doubt they'd be able to compete with a similar weighted Olympic lifter. And no Olympic lifter will be able to compete with a serious powerlifter in a deadlift or bench because they haven't trained the proper form/muscle recruitment.

WillKuenzel
01-18-2008, 08:59 AM
Nope. Technique wins out at lower levels over brute strength, but at the top levels, strength and speed are just as important, if not moreso than technique. Most international class olympic lifters have flawless technique.

They wouldn't be at the international level if they didn't have that form, so form, regardless of strength and speed (brute strength), in that sport is paramount.

Just to argue semantics.

chris taylor
01-18-2008, 09:19 AM
JHarris,
My friend there are MANY powerifters who squat deep in and out of equiptment. Check out some of the single ply lifters depth and strength it could shock you... I personally have hit 600 raw no belt on the floor at 250lbs... I think a top Level Oly lifter may be able to hang in a raw to raw contest but not win out... But I would say that 90% of powerlifters would not be able to hang with an Oly lifter in Oly lifting for the mere fact of technique and flexibilty just cant exist when you bench and have the upper body mass in the shoulders tris and pecs.. So as others have posted apples to oranges would be correct..

CT

RhodeHouse
01-18-2008, 09:24 AM
Nope. Technique wins out at lower levels over brute strength, but at the top levels, strength and speed are just as important, if not moreso than technique. Most international class olympic lifters have flawless technique.

I agree its apples to oranges in that the lifts are totally different. If you take all the equipment off a powerlifter and make them squat all the way down, I doubt they'd be able to compete with a similar weighted Olympic lifter. And no Olympic lifter will be able to compete with a serious powerlifter in a deadlift or bench because they haven't trained the proper form/muscle recruitment.

This is kinda like arguing shirt v. raw lifting. OL will think they're stronger and PL will think they're stronger. Basically, it's a pissing contest.

IMO, a PL would win no matter what. Depth, gear, no gear, blah, blah, blah. The sport of powerlifting requires more overall body strength than Olympic lifting. However, since technique and execution are radically different, it's like having a basketball team play a football team in lacrosse. It can't be compared.

CosmicForce
01-18-2008, 09:43 AM
No offense, but OL don't need to be that strong.That sentence is a bunch of crap. How many PLers could every OHP 213 kg/486.6 lbs over there head at 83 kg/182.6 lbs. None of that lay on your back, wide a** grip press the bar 2 1/2 inches above your chest and call it a lift crap. Dimas doesn't split jerk he push jerks.

Pyrros Dimas 213kg WR C&J
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9CIooz--atY

JHarris
01-18-2008, 10:10 AM
This is kinda like arguing shirt v. raw lifting. OL will think they're stronger and PL will think they're stronger. Basically, it's a pissing contest.

Yeah, I agree. I personally think that the person who trains the movement will win, period. That's why I mentioned full depth, unequipped squatting since Olympic lifters train that multiple times a week.


IMO, a PL would win no matter what. Depth, gear, no gear, blah, blah, blah. The sport of powerlifting requires more overall body strength than Olympic lifting. However, since technique and execution are radically different, it's like having a basketball team play a football team in lacrosse. It can't be compared.

You make a good point with that last line. There's no doubt that powerlifters focus only on strength while Olympic lifters have to focus on other things too, so in that sense I have to say that powerlifting is designed to produced the best pure-strength athletes. However, since most of the rest of the world's top talent in strength sports go into Olympic lifting, I think its a toss up today on which sport has the strongest.

Guido
01-18-2008, 10:42 AM
When you are talking about olympic caliber SHW lifters like Pyrros Dimas or Shane Hamman...these are guys who essentially OVERHEAD squat 450-500 lbs. I know Hamman has back squatted RAW over 900 lbs. That is serious strength, and these are guys who don't use or practice in any kind of supportive gear.

I think it would be interesting to see how top level PLers and Oly lifters would fair in such a competition. Suffice it to say that I think the Oly guys woiuld do better at PLing than the other way around.

Chubrock
01-18-2008, 11:09 AM
I think it would be interesting to see how top level PLers and Oly lifters would fair in such a competition. Suffice it to say that I think the Oly guys woiuld do better at PLing than the other way around.

I'm not so sure about that G. Like JHarris commented, Oly lifters don't really train the bench or heavy pull very often at all. While they might make things interesting to start the meet off, I'd imagine things would quickly go downhill.

BFGUITAR
01-18-2008, 12:11 PM
Maybe I should be clearer.

If we were to define parallel as the goal, PLers usually train to hit parallel with as much weight as they can whule oly lifters seem to go ATF with as much weight as they can. If the oly lifter aimed for parallel, how much more could they lift?

deeder
01-18-2008, 12:44 PM
Maybe I should be clearer.

If we were to define parallel as the goal, PLers usually train to hit parallel with as much weight as they can whule oly lifters seem to go ATF with as much weight as they can. If the oly lifter aimed for parallel, how much more could they lift?

My guess is less, at first... The olympic squat is VERY different from a powerlifting squat.

Invain
01-18-2008, 02:32 PM
IMO, any guy that can hold almost 500 pounds above his head can definitely squat ass loads. Give them time to train with gear and I really think they could do pretty well in a power lifting comp.

Guido
01-18-2008, 03:25 PM
I'm not so sure about that G. Like JHarris commented, Oly lifters don't really train the bench or heavy pull very often at all. While they might make things interesting to start the meet off, I'd imagine things would quickly go downhill.I don't think the OLOers would fair well on bench, necessarily, but I think he'd hold his own on the DL as well as the squat. I knew a guy who was a pure OL'er and I got him to try for a DL max once. He was about 205 lbs, same as me, and his very first time ever going for max he did 545 lbs. His speed off the floor was insane, too. If he'd worked on lockout strength he could have done a lot more pretty quickly.

A lot of those OL'er guys I've seen are similar, too. Lots of power off the floor (on squat and DL) and just lacking the hip strength for really heavy lockouts, since they don't really work the partial ROM much. A little work on that and they would have ridiculous strength.

minotaur70
01-18-2008, 05:00 PM
like Rhodes said- this is basically a pissing competition. You are basically saying how many PLers could equal the world record in an oly lift?
To which the PL will reply, how many oly lifters would break a world PL record?
The question was about squatting- and there are some damn good raw PL squatters- obviously.


That sentence is a bunch of crap. How many PLers could every OHP 213 kg/486.6 lbs over there head at 83 kg/182.6 lbs. None of that lay on your back, wide a** grip press the bar 2 1/2 inches above your chest and call it a lift crap. Dimas doesn't split jerk he push jerks.

Pyrros Dimas 213kg WR C&J
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9CIooz--atY

JHarris
01-18-2008, 06:55 PM
I don't think the OLOers would fair well on bench, necessarily, but I think he'd hold his own on the DL as well as the squat. I knew a guy who was a pure OL'er and I got him to try for a DL max once. He was about 205 lbs, same as me, and his very first time ever going for max he did 545 lbs. His speed off the floor was insane, too. If he'd worked on lockout strength he could have done a lot more pretty quickly.

A lot of those OL'er guys I've seen are similar, too. Lots of power off the floor (on squat and DL) and just lacking the hip strength for really heavy lockouts, since they don't really work the partial ROM much. A little work on that and they would have ridiculous strength.

This really surprises me. I am the exact opposite way around; anything I can get off the floor, I can easily stand up with, but its the first 3 inches or so on heavy reps that give me issues. A number of my training partners have the same problem.

Then again, I rarely do true deadlifts, though I do a lot of RDLs and obviously clean/snatch pulls. I imagine its a form issue? I mean, even when doing deadlifts I have a tendency to stay over the bar and try to keep my back angle constant until the bar is past my knees.

Was your friend deadlifting like an olympic lifter, or did he have some pointers? I'm just really surprised since the triple extension and full hip involvement is so important in olympic lifting, where strength off the floor is not quite as important.

Big_Byrd52
01-18-2008, 07:25 PM
i think an oly lifter would fair very well in the squat right off the bat in a raw test of strength. with some training for parallel and limit strength in the squat, they would be right there, no doubt. Hell pyros dimas, a 85 or 90kg lifter has squatted over 6 ATG.

the pull would take some time because they would have to learn to strain. but even just starting they would pull very well compared to state level Plers.


if u squat 2-3 times a week for years, ur freakin squat and DL are gonna be off the chain. PERIOD.

Sensei
01-18-2008, 07:50 PM
Maybe I should be clearer.

If we were to define parallel as the goal, PLers usually train to hit parallel with as much weight as they can whule oly lifters seem to go ATF with as much weight as they can. If the oly lifter aimed for parallel, how much more could they lift?
Not much more - you'd be surprised. OLers train to hit their numbers from rock bottom. Unless they trained for PL squats (parallel) for a while, their squat numbers might actually be be about the same or even worse, believe it or not.

OLers are some of the strongest and most powerful athletes in the world no doubt, but a world class PLer would, generally speaking, squat the pants off a world class OLer.

chris mason
01-18-2008, 07:52 PM
Olympic lifters practice the back squat quite a bit in most cases. The tend to be VERY strong in the lift. I have seen Hossain Reza Zedah (sp?) front squat over 600 lbs like it was NOTHING.

Rhode, you are dead wrong about their strength in the squat. The best are on par with the best powerlifters in a raw squat from what I have seen.

MPB
01-18-2008, 09:16 PM
Olympic lifters practice the back squat quite a bit in most cases. The tend to be VERY strong in the lift. I have seen Hossain Reza Zedah (sp?) front squat over 600 lbs like it was NOTHING.

Rhode, you are dead wrong about their strength in the squat. The best are on par with the best powerlifters in a raw squat from what I have seen.
hkSN3f-a3Ok
Hossein Rezazadeh front squatting 617 lb for 2 easy reps

RhodeHouse
01-18-2008, 09:42 PM
That sentence is a bunch of crap. How many PLers could every OHP 213 kg/486.6 lbs over there head at 83 kg/182.6 lbs. None of that lay on your back, wide a** grip press the bar 2 1/2 inches above your chest and call it a lift crap. Dimas doesn't split jerk he push jerks.

Pyrros Dimas 213kg WR C&J
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9CIooz--atY

Not impressed. Sorry. Next?

RhodeHouse
01-18-2008, 09:45 PM
When you are talking about olympic caliber SHW lifters like Pyrros Dimas or Shane Hamman...these are guys who essentially OVERHEAD squat 450-500 lbs. I know Hamman has back squatted RAW over 900 lbs. That is serious strength, and these are guys who don't use or practice in any kind of supportive gear.

I think it would be interesting to see how top level PLers and Oly lifters would fair in such a competition. Suffice it to say that I think the Oly guys woiuld do better at PLing than the other way around.

First, I want to see Hammond squat 900 raw. Until there's video, NOPE. And, Hammond got his start in powerlifting.

RhodeHouse
01-18-2008, 09:48 PM
Maybe I should be clearer.

If we were to define parallel as the goal, PLers usually train to hit parallel with as much weight as they can whule oly lifters seem to go ATF with as much weight as they can. If the oly lifter aimed for parallel, how much more could they lift?

I think it's still a different technique. Squatting to the floor gives you a stretch reflex that hitting parallel does not. It might be tougher for an OL to stop at parallel. They may actually be stronger with full OL depth. I know my full range overhead press is higher than a rack press.

RhodeHouse
01-18-2008, 09:50 PM
I don't think the OLOers would fair well on bench, necessarily, but I think he'd hold his own on the DL as well as the squat. I knew a guy who was a pure OL'er and I got him to try for a DL max once. He was about 205 lbs, same as me, and his very first time ever going for max he did 545 lbs. His speed off the floor was insane, too. If he'd worked on lockout strength he could have done a lot more pretty quickly.

A lot of those OL'er guys I've seen are similar, too. Lots of power off the floor (on squat and DL) and just lacking the hip strength for really heavy lockouts, since they don't really work the partial ROM much. A little work on that and they would have ridiculous strength.

OL hip strength is INSANE! The whole lift is based on hip strength and speed. I think it's just a radically different lift.

Mad Max
01-19-2008, 05:54 AM
Let's not forget that oly lifters will train for six hours a day for much of the year. Oly lifting is more of an unknown quantity around these parts, so we can not really say for sure whether an oly lifter could or could not drastically increase their squat were they to switch to a powerlifting stance.
The crux of the argument is that pl style squatting is employed to lift the greatest back loaded weight from a position in which the thighs are parallel to the floor. Oly squats are a combination of building up overall thigh strength, as well as practicing being able to be in a very deep position with a huge weight and come up out of that position, as preparation for the oly lifts, this is especially so in front squats and oh squats. So they are two very different moves. Having said that it seems fairly obvious that if an oly lifter were to transfer to pl style squatting then with a bit of practice his numbers would improve.
Also lets not forget that oly lifters pull with a perfect arch in their back. I'd speculate that this makes their pulling even more glute ham focussed than the more common back slightly curved approach of pl'ers.

So in conclusion, if you take world class strength athletes and ask them to switch to a moderately different strength sport, there's gonna be a tonne of carryover, and, after a year perhaps, probably not much difference between their lifts and the lifts of those who have been training in that area for most of their adult life.

Hazerboy
01-21-2008, 10:03 PM
In Brooks Kubick's "dinosuar training" he gifts some record powerlifting lifts of olympic lifters (in training I believe) including the bench press, and from what I remember they were pretty impressive, especially for being raw. If I can find the book I'll post some.

BFGUITAR
01-21-2008, 11:03 PM
I tried not to make this a pissing contest. Im not comparing a PLer to an Oly lifter in overall strength but rather their squats, the one thing they both do very very well (along with deads to some extent).

I guess this comes to my next question... would learning some oly lifting help me dramatically with deads and squat? I can see that doing cleans can really help my deads even if im not cleaning very much (say 150-180?). Than again, I do need to learn the technique, ill do my best at making a few vids.

JHarris
01-22-2008, 06:56 AM
I guess this comes to my next question... would learning some oly lifting help me dramatically with deads and squat? I can see that doing cleans can really help my deads even if im not cleaning very much (say 150-180?). Than again, I do need to learn the technique, ill do my best at making a few vids.

Olympic lifting is not going to help your deadlift a huge amount. If your end goal is powerlifting, doing the Olympic lifts is not going to do a lot for you. A clean/snatch pull is not a speed deadlift - the form is very different. Same thing on your squat.. if you are trying to squat like a powerlifting, olympic lifting and olympic style squatting won't be of much aid to you. However, doing an Olympic lifting routine will make you stronger, more flexible (if done right), faster and probably improve your core stability a great deal.

If you are trying to be a better all around athlete, Olympic lifting is great. The narrower squat stance with more depth will give you great leg development. And there are few people who disagree with the fact that OL'ing makes you a much more explosive, fast athlete.

WillKuenzel
01-22-2008, 07:45 AM
It's the variety. Before I was neck deep in powerlifting, I was doing a lot of oly stuff. I loved it. I felt explosive and very athletic. I also felt that they were wonderful exercises to help with conditioning and mental toughness. Now that powerlifting is my goal, I focus a lot less (none, to be exact) on oly lifting.

ernburn
01-22-2008, 07:48 PM
didn't hamman squat over 1000 suited, and also i had a friend oly lifter turn power lifter and when we were training he squated 275 ass to calves at 119lbs which is very impressive he then started power lifting and 1 and half months later his powerlift squat parrellel was 335 its pretty apparent that a powerlift squat isn't as hard as an oly squat, or for that fact i'd like to see a top power lifter flexible enough to do a over head squat with 400+lbs

Chubrock
01-22-2008, 08:37 PM
didn't hamman squat over 1000 suited, and also i had a friend oly lifter turn power lifter and when we were training he squated 275 ass to calves at 119lbs which is very impressive he then started power lifting and 1 and half months later his powerlift squat parrellel was 335 its pretty apparent that a powerlift squat isn't as hard as an oly squat, or for that fact i'd like to see a top power lifter flexible enough to do a over head squat with 400+lbs

Stabilize a 1200lbs squat and tell me it's not tough. I think you'll see a 1200lbs squatter squat 700lbs to the ground long before you'll see a 700lbs Oly lifter squat 1200lbs to APF depth.

ernburn
01-22-2008, 09:10 PM
Stabilize a 1200lbs squat and tell me it's not tough. I think you'll see a 1200lbs squatter squat 700lbs to the ground long before you'll see a 700lbs Oly lifter squat 1200lbs to APF depth.

yeah but that 1200lb squatter is using a suit only going parrallel, and they could probably go atc with lighter weight like 700lbs atc but it doesn't really matter cus an oly lifter doesn't train for a suited squat or bench press or deadlift max, they train for clean and jerk and snatch much like a powerlifter doesn't train oly lifts i think they are all just strong BAMF

Fuzzy
01-23-2008, 05:39 AM
yeah but that 1200lb squatter is using a suit only going parrallel, and they could probably go atc with lighter weight like 700lbs atc but it doesn't really matter cus an oly lifter doesn't train for a suited squat or bench press or deadlift max, they train for clean and jerk and snatch much like a powerlifter doesn't train oly lifts i think they are all just strong BAMF

The conditioning it takes to put 1200 pounds on your back... ****, thats mind blowing in itself. 'only going to parallel' i doubt many O lifters could MOVE that weight. Just wrap your head around 1200 pounds, I dont care if someone can bury 700, the thought of putting 1200 on my back makes me shake

I have been in both sports, i compete in powerlifting meets for fun and I squat Olympic style. I know for a fact I would squat LESS with a wide stance to par. ...I like my bounce and strech reflex.

I refuse to lend any argument to wich is better, to who could do more, i don't care, i squat because I love squatting and because squats help my competetion lifts. This type of topic can be argued endlessly and doesn't really achieve anything.

Once my coach gets the new gym up and running we are sending out a mass invite to every strength athlete to come train at the facility. I dream of a day when i can snatch 400+ then walk over and spot a guy hitting an 800 pound bench, cheer him on, pat his back and say 'good work.' Because it doesn;t matter what shirt he wore or how he pessed it, he persevered to be better, and as a fellow strength athlete I would be an idiot not be proud of that.

It disgusts me being in the midst of Olympic lifters thinking they are better then powerlifters and vice versa. We are strength athletes, we add more weight to the bar and do whatever the **** we have to do with the bar to be better.

So, who cares? This is a pointless topic, what i would like to see more of is how Olympic techniques could help powerlifting and vice verse. I did atg squats and snatch pulls with chains the other day, very interesting effect especially with the 2nd pull extension, my hips and calves really felt it.

I also box squatted but did Olympic squats, deloading like a standard box squat and having to rely on pure muscle strength to break out, just like being pinned in the bottom of the clean.

Now THATS a topic worth discussing. How much can either sport IMPROVE the other, not flap their penis the most.

Chubrock
01-23-2008, 07:02 AM
It disgusts me being in the midst of Olympic lifters thinking they are better then powerlifters and vice versa. We are strength athletes, we add more weight to the bar and do whatever the **** we have to do with the bar to be better.

.


Nice statement Fuzz. This is also why I can't stand the geared vs non gear federation discussions.

Big_Byrd52
01-23-2008, 11:38 AM
some of the reasoning on these posts cracks me up. do u guys really think that doing squats 3-4 times a week is NOT going to build a big deadlift? no add that they are also doing some form of pulling/low back work on top of that 3-4 days a week?

i seem to recall this popular school of thought called conjegute training... westside? it has produced at least a couple half assed dead lifters i think.

thats my 2 cc's

Invain
01-23-2008, 11:59 AM
Now THATS a topic worth discussing. How much can either sport IMPROVE the other, not flap their penis the most.

What does this have to do with anything? BF asked an honest question, I don't see anything wrong with it. I respect both types of athletes and think it would be pretty interesting to watch both compete against eachother, just to see how they compare.

BFGUITAR
01-23-2008, 12:08 PM
Fuzz maybe you misinterpreted me. I asked a very simple and honest question with an answer I didnt know. Both practices squat day in day out. I just wanted to know if ATG squatting can carry over to PL style squatting. I realized that oly squatting was different than PL squatting but I didnt know by how much.

Deadlifter
01-23-2008, 01:22 PM
"ATG" Squatting is useless for powerliting. The olympic lifters wouldn't even be able to do a proper power squat without training, and if they did, they would do LESS weight or the same weight at best than their bounced out of the hole quad dominant full squats.

"ATG" Squats are a quad dominant lift, power squats are for the posterior chain.

JHarris
01-23-2008, 01:57 PM
some of the reasoning on these posts cracks me up. do u guys really think that doing squats 3-4 times a week is NOT going to build a big deadlift? no add that they are also doing some form of pulling/low back work on top of that 3-4 days a week?

i seem to recall this popular school of thought called conjegute training... westside? it has produced at least a couple half assed dead lifters i think.

thats my 2 cc's

Yes. squatting 3-4 times a week and doing pulling work for cleans and snatches will not build a huge deadlift. That is what I said, and its true. Most Olympic lifters (that I know, coach, or am aware of) have great pulling power once the bar gets to about their knees. However, OL'ers pulls off the floor tend not to be super strong because we don't train it that heavy at all. Our heaviest deadlifts are RDL's stopping just below the knee. Further, our pull style, which is what we train, is not biomechanically great for doing a straight deadlift.

So yes. It won't build as big of a deadlift as a powerlifting program. Still, I've deadlifted 230kg with a max full squat of 215kg. Its not small, but I'm sure tons of 94kg guys blow me out of the water in terms of deadlifting.

Big_Byrd52
01-23-2008, 02:37 PM
Yes. squatting 3-4 times a week and doing pulling work for cleans and snatches will not build a huge deadlift. That is what I said, and its true. Most Olympic lifters (that I know, coach, or am aware of) have great pulling power once the bar gets to about their knees. However, OL'ers pulls off the floor tend not to be super strong because we don't train it that heavy at all. Our heaviest deadlifts are RDL's stopping just below the knee. Further, our pull style, which is what we train, is not biomechanically great for doing a straight deadlift.

So yes. It won't build as big of a deadlift as a powerlifting program. Still, I've deadlifted 230kg with a max full squat of 215kg. Its not small, but I'm sure tons of 94kg guys blow me out of the water in terms of deadlifting.

its a matter of learning to strain. oly lifter rip it off the floor because its light. when that heavy weight hits em its a mind fuk. to pull over 500 at 200 without training for it is 2.5Xs weight. not national level, but a 3x pull is considered quite an accomplishment. but then again, are u a national level oly lifter? whats ur clean and snatch?

according to some leading oly strength coaches, a clean should be aprox 60% of the squat. usually a squat and pull will be very close. of course this is translated to those with profficient technique, and not just any random lifter.

so if one can clean 330 or 150kg, they should be able to squat 330/60%= 550 lbs. that is a pretty good raw squat for a about 200lbs. it is competitive regionally.

now if u apply that to world caliber, u get rezzadah with a 263kg (578lbs) clean which itself it ******ed, but 578/.60=965 at super heavy. the biggest i have seen is Donnie Thompson at 870 who just did 1155 this weekend.

pyros dimas did a 466lb clean at 185lbs weight. 466/.60=777lbs. thats ******ed strong. I have the biggest recent raw squat of 705 at 205 and have hit 1063 in gear.

ild say thats pretty damn strong!

but those are guesses. lets look at some fact we know...

-we know that shane hammon has cleaned 506lbs
- we know squatted 1008 in the IPF single ply walkout back in 1995.
- i know (because i have tested it)the gear of that day could not have given more than 150-200lbs tops. this would be about an 800-850 squat.

now with the calculation, 506/.60=843.

i would say that is pretty damn sound logic to me.

chris mason
01-23-2008, 06:05 PM
its a matter of learning to strain. oly lifter rip it off the floor because its light. when that heavy weight hits em its a mind fuk. to pull over 500 at 200 without training for it is 2.5Xs weight. not national level, but a 3x pull is considered quite an accomplishment. but then again, are u a national level oly lifter? whats ur clean and snatch?

according to some leading oly strength coaches, a clean should be aprox 60% of the squat. usually a squat and pull will be very close. of course this is translated to those with profficient technique, and not just any random lifter.

so if one can clean 330 or 150kg, they should be able to squat 330/60%= 550 lbs. that is a pretty good raw squat for a about 200lbs. it is competitive regionally.

now if u apply that to world caliber, u get rezzadah with a 263kg (578lbs) clean which itself it ******ed, but 578/.60=965 at super heavy. the biggest i have seen is Donnie Thompson at 870 who just did 1155 this weekend.

pyros dimas did a 466lb clean at 185lbs weight. 466/.60=777lbs. thats ******ed strong. I have the biggest recent raw squat of 705 at 205 and have hit 1063 in gear.

ild say thats pretty damn strong!

but those are guesses. lets look at some fact we know...

-we know that shane hammon has cleaned 506lbs
- we know squatted 1008 in the IPF single ply walkout back in 1995.
- i know (because i have tested it)the gear of that day could not have given more than 150-200lbs tops. this would be about an 800-850 squat.

now with the calculation, 506/.60=843.

i would say that is pretty damn sound logic to me.

Very sound points.

BFGUITAR
01-23-2008, 06:35 PM
its a matter of learning to strain. oly lifter rip it off the floor because its light. when that heavy weight hits em its a mind fuk. to pull over 500 at 200 without training for it is 2.5Xs weight. not national level, but a 3x pull is considered quite an accomplishment. but then again, are u a national level oly lifter? whats ur clean and snatch?

according to some leading oly strength coaches, a clean should be aprox 60% of the squat. usually a squat and pull will be very close. of course this is translated to those with profficient technique, and not just any random lifter.

so if one can clean 330 or 150kg, they should be able to squat 330/60%= 550 lbs. that is a pretty good raw squat for a about 200lbs. it is competitive regionally.

now if u apply that to world caliber, u get rezzadah with a 263kg (578lbs) clean which itself it ******ed, but 578/.60=965 at super heavy. the biggest i have seen is Donnie Thompson at 870 who just did 1155 this weekend.

pyros dimas did a 466lb clean at 185lbs weight. 466/.60=777lbs. thats ******ed strong. I have the biggest recent raw squat of 705 at 205 and have hit 1063 in gear.

ild say thats pretty damn strong!

but those are guesses. lets look at some fact we know...

-we know that shane hammon has cleaned 506lbs
- we know squatted 1008 in the IPF single ply walkout back in 1995.
- i know (because i have tested it)the gear of that day could not have given more than 150-200lbs tops. this would be about an 800-850 squat.

now with the calculation, 506/.60=843.

i would say that is pretty damn sound logic to me.

This is the answer-format I was looking for. Puts everything in perspective based around the squat, thanks!

JHarris
01-23-2008, 06:39 PM
its a matter of learning to strain. oly lifter rip it off the floor because its light. when that heavy weight hits em its a mind fuk. to pull over 500 at 200 without training for it is 2.5Xs weight. not national level, but a 3x pull is considered quite an accomplishment. but then again, are u a national level oly lifter? whats ur clean and snatch?

Yes, I'm national quality. My best total is 296 (133 snatch, 163 c&j). I'm one of about 15 people who qualify for senior nationals as a 94kg lifter.


according to some leading oly strength coaches, a clean should be aprox 60% of the squat.

This is off. You have very good technique if you clean around 80% of your squat. You are elite if you clean 85%. This becomes less true with heavier weight classes, of course. Shane, while being our best superheavy ever, was not a highly efficient lifter.


so if one can clean 330 or 150kg, they should be able to squat 330/60%= 550 lbs. that is a pretty good raw squat for a about 200lbs. it is competitive regionally.

Yeah, someone cleaning 150kg with good form probably squats around 190-200. If they are excellent in form, they probably squat 180-190. Lance Frye, one of the top lifters in the country when he isn't suspended, has clean and jerked 195kg at 77kg. His best back squat is 240kg.


pyros dimas did a 466lb clean at 185lbs weight. 466/.60=777lbs. thats ******ed strong. I have the biggest recent raw squat of 705 at 205 and have hit 1063 in gear.

Dimas's best known backsquat was 280kg= 616lbs. Then again, his best back squat was when he weighed 93kg, and he was normally an 85kg lifter.


-we know that shane hammon has cleaned 506lbs
- we know squatted 1008 in the IPF single ply walkout back in 1995.
now with the calculation, 506/.60=843.
i would say that is pretty damn sound logic to me.

Yeah, it really doesn't apply as much to the superheavies since they just start gaining strength like crazy. At some point, the backsquat stops correlating quite as well to the Olympic lifts, especially at the top most levels of the Olympics. I think this is probably because at that high of a level for either the squat or the clean, further gains are more about specializing in the lift and working it constantly for maxes.

Big_Byrd52
01-24-2008, 01:59 PM
good counters. if dimas' best back squat is 616, that is about 75%. i dont know how his technique would rank as far as proficiency goes tho? i know thats one hell of a push jerk tho!

i have trained with james Sansom, 85kg jr world team. he has CJ 190 in the gym, i think 170 in comp, and squats round 550.

even if u split our estimations at 70%, those are some big squats. and they are ATG, not parallel. whether or how much difference that makes is a different story.

Brian Siders, arguably one of the best IPF/usapl supers ever, squatted 780ish raw, and mid 9 in single ply--tho he did hit 1000 something only to take a step at the top it came up so fast. so Rez at 80%, would be a 732, which is def reasonable the way he front squatted 617 for reps like a warmup. he is right in line with siders.

Dimas at JUST 616 and 85kg would be in line with phil harrington or brad vargesson who both claim a 600ish raw squat. phil squatting 900 at 181 (cutting from 200) in gear.


there is no way to give an EXACT figure, but even with the 80% u suggest, those numbers are at the top of the PL world in those examples. those are really the only OLY lifters i know to compare. if u could give me more weight classes and numbers i could give u what is known in the raw PL world.

Guido
01-24-2008, 02:59 PM
:lurk:

Guys, this is some good ****.