Question for the UFC fans here.

[Blade55]

I've heard a few times watching the UFC that Joe Rogan will say that a fighter is a natural 185 pounder...he says this about Anderson Silva a lot. So do fighters only weigh a certain amount for that fight and at other times they're heavier? While a guy like Silva is always that weight, a natural. Like Michael Bisping for example...he's 6'2 and in the 185 division...that seems awfully skinny to me for a 6'2 guy. Is he only that weight for his fight? Mike Swick is another example...6'1 at 170 pounds! Why would you want to be that skinny?

Then you have some guys like Rich Franklin who looks huge for being only 185 pounds at 6'0. It's confusing to me.

[BilltheButcher]

Natural means they don't have to really cut weight to make the weight class. So if your a natural 185, thats what you walk around at. Most guys walk around a lot heavier and cut down, make weight and then over the next 24 hrs recoup.

I am sure that someone else with real experience in this can explain it better and give some insight.

[Chubrock]

Natural means they don't have to really cut weight to make the weight class. So if your a natural 185, thats what you walk around at. Most guys walk around a lot heavier and cut down, make weight and then over the next 24 hrs recoup.

I am sure that someone else with real experience in this can explain it better and give some insight.



You're pretty much dead on. You'll find that a lot of athletes will cut 10-15lbs before a fight. Some athletes will cut more than that. Basically anybody you see in the 185lbs division is normally walking around at ~200lbs and is probably fighting at 205lbs.

[Blade55]

I figured that because most guys wouldn't choose to be 6'1 170 pounds all the time...or 6'1 155 pounds like Nate Diaz. Good God he looks unhealthy!

Don't fighters usually fight like every 2-3 months? So they gain 20 pounds in 2-3 months then have to worry about cutting all over again. That sucks. I wonder how many are naturals.

[Mike G]

I figured that because most guys wouldn't choose to be 6'1 170 pounds all the time...or 6'1 155 pounds like Nate Diaz. Good God he looks unhealthy!

Don't fighters usually fight like every 2-3 months? So they gain 20 pounds in 2-3 months then have to worry about cutting all over again. That sucks. I wonder how many are naturals.

They usually gain the weight back very quickly, because a lot of it (most probably) is water weight. They deplete themselves for the weigh in and then replenish before the fight. For a lot of guys, they might walk around weighing a class heavier and then cut for the fight. Sean Sherk is the master at this and it gives him a huge advantage in his fights.

I doubt many of them care that they don't look huge, they are fighters and if fighting in a lower class gives them an edge, that's all that matters, not how they look. Diaz is thin, but he is wirey and his length gave him a huge advantage tonight.

[SGT ROCK]

Its much like a powerlifter trying to make weight. Your natural weight is what you would walk around with, in normal training, not dieting etc. Some plers will weigh "normally" 20lbs over the limit but cut down for a show. Some can do this with ease, some it takes a toll.

Semper Fi

[mikey4402]

You're pretty much dead on. You'll find that a lot of athletes will cut 10-15lbs before a fight. Some athletes will cut more than that. Basically anybody you see in the 185lbs division is normally walking around at ~200lbs and is probably fighting at 205lbs.

I always knew fighters would cut weight for the weight in, but then fought a few pounds heavier. But gaining 20 lbs between weight in and the fight!...i didnt know they would put on that much.

How long is it between weight in and the actual fight?

[Brawl]

Sometimes 2 days but mostly a day ... My bro Nate walks around about 225-230 lbs , he fights at 205 .

After he weighs in he usually puts on about 10-15 before the fight , depending how he feels .

[Blade55]

What popular UFC fighters are actually naturals? Is Anderson Silva the only one?

[BilltheButcher]

What popular UFC fighters are actually naturals? Is Anderson Silva the only one?

I think when Dan Henderson fights 205 he doesn't have to cut, when he drops to 185 he does. I think there are a bunch of HW that could possibly cut down to 205, that walk around at their natural weight. Bisping I think is fighting at 205, Rashard Evans won at HW now fights at 205. Kenny Florian fought at a heavier class when he is a natural 155. BJ Penn fights 170, when he can drop down to 155.

[KingJustin]

I kind of hate the commentary on this. So someone is a "natural 205" that fights in the 170 lb class and it's supposed to be a big deal. Anything over the (glycogen storage) + (water weight) + (remainder of fat to get to 7%) that a fighter drops is absolutely pointless. So when you see guys dropping 30 lbs or something and you talk about it like these guys are crazy machines or something, it's really dumb. You don't need to drop any more than about 7-10 lbs.

[BilltheButcher]

I kind of hate the commentary on this. So someone is a "natural 205" that fights in the 170 lb class and it's supposed to be a big deal. Anything over the (glycogen storage) + (water weight) + (remainder of fat to get to 7%) that a fighter drops is absolutely pointless. So when you see guys dropping 30 lbs or something and you talk about it like these guys are crazy machines or something, it's really dumb. You don't need to drop any more than about 7-10 lbs.

The initial question what does it mean when they says a guy is a natural (whatever weight). There was nothing asked about cutting and I am not sure anyone even made a big deal about cutting through this entire thread. However, you are going to tell us that cutting 10, 20, 30lbs over a few days isn't insane? We are not talking doing a BB cut where you drop weight gradually over 12 weeks, this is a massive weight drop over a 24-48hr period to make weight. I lived with 4 wrestlers in college and it was miserable wathcing these guys cut to make weight. Ya, rice cakes and water for a few days, sounds like a pleasure cruise.

[Brawl]

I kind of hate the commentary on this. So someone is a "natural 205" that fights in the 170 lb class and it's supposed to be a big deal. Anything over the (glycogen storage) + (water weight) + (remainder of fat to get to 7%) that a fighter drops is absolutely pointless. So when you see guys dropping 30 lbs or something and you talk about it like these guys are crazy machines or something, it's really dumb. You don't need to drop any more than about 7-10 lbs.

I dont think you understand what the fighters are doing . These guys arent shredding body fat to look ripped ...they're dumping bodyweight to fight guys lighter than they are .

Tell a guy that fights 25 lbs above a weight class but cuts the weight that it's no big deal when he fights a guy that doesnt cut weight and is at the bottom of that weight class .

Ex- Guy
A- walks around at 225 fights at 205
B- walks around at 195 fights at 187 --Both in the same weight class

If it didnt make a difference , fighters wouldnt be doing it .

[KingJustin]

I still don't buy this.

My idea of an ideal cut is:
218 lbs, 7% body fat with glycogen and water levels topped out. ~4 days before the fight he starts to drop all his glycogen and water and weighs in at 205 (3% BF) the night before the fight, then puts it all back on before the fight (maybe even adds an extra couple pounds)

Be specific. What is more ideal than that?
Walking around at lower than 7% "permanently" is unhealthy, and it's not really possible to be lower than 3%.

I also don't buy the "otherwise they wouldn't do it" argument. A lot of the UFC guys really don't train the way that I would consider ideal. Take a guy that we know DOES train smart like George St. Pierre, and you see he runs circles around some of the other guys.

[method115]

I still don't buy this.

My idea of an ideal cut is:
218 lbs, 7% body fat with glycogen and water levels topped out. ~4 days before the fight he starts to drop all his glycogen and water and weighs in at 205 (3% BF) the night before the fight, then puts it all back on before the fight (maybe even adds an extra couple pounds)

Be specific. What is more ideal than that?
Walking around at lower than 7% "permanently" is unhealthy, and it's not really possible to be lower than 3%.

I also don't buy the "otherwise they wouldn't do it" argument. A lot of the UFC guys really don't train the way that I would consider ideal. Take a guy that we know DOES train smart like George St. Pierre, and you see he runs circles around some of the other guys.

Yea I see the way a lot of these guys train and it looks just plain wrong.

[nddillon]

I still don't buy this.

My idea of an ideal cut is:
218 lbs, 7% body fat with glycogen and water levels topped out. ~4 days before the fight he starts to drop all his glycogen and water and weighs in at 205 (3% BF) the night before the fight, then puts it all back on before the fight (maybe even adds an extra couple pounds)

Be specific. What is more ideal than that?
Walking around at lower than 7% "permanently" is unhealthy, and it's not really possible to be lower than 3%.

I also don't buy the "otherwise they wouldn't do it" argument. A lot of the UFC guys really don't train the way that I would consider ideal. Take a guy that we know DOES train smart like George St. Pierre, and you see he runs circles around some of the other guys.

You probably should not have said that...other than Riggs, GSP is probably the biggest welter weight and weighs in at almost 200# one week before the fight.

Man, you have a lot to learn about weight commissioned sports.

[KingJustin]

I was talking about his training rather than him dropping weight.

I still don't understand how any cut in weight is more ideal than what I described.

[Brawl]

I still don't understand how any cut in weight is more ideal than what I described.

Because you havent stepped in the ring bro . You are comparing a lifting cut to fighting cut .

[KingJustin]

Because you havent stepped in the ring bro . You are comparing a lifting cut to fighting cut .

I still don't buy this, and I don't think John Berardi does either. He talks about how poorly most grapplers cut for a match and how the techniques used are really dumb.

Explain, specifically, a way that is more ideal than my example. When these guys "walk around" 40 lbs over their weight class, are they at 8% body fat, or are they just carrying a ton of weight?

I'm about 215 lbs today at probably 9%. If I wanted to, I could probably cut down and fight at 170 in like 3 weeks. But all that would happen is I would lose a ton of muscle and a ton of strength, which I spent a lot of time gaining. And I wouldn't be able to put back on all that extra muscle between weigh-in the night before and the actual fight. I think it would be much better for me to sit at 185-190, ripped, and then drop my glycogen and fat, which I'd regain.

[WillKuenzel]

My idea of an ideal cut is:
218 lbs, 7% body fat with glycogen and water levels topped out. ~4 days before the fight he starts to drop all his glycogen and water and weighs in at 205 (3% BF) the night before the fight, then puts it all back on before the fight (maybe even adds an extra couple pounds)


You don't drop bodyfat by depleting glycogen and water. You realize that don't you? I don't know of anybody that can drop 4% of body fat in 3-4 days, especially at the level that these guys are at. Bodybuilders can't do that and they reach a much more depleted state than these guys would ever want to be in.



I still don't understand how any cut in weight is more ideal than what I described.Who would you rather fight? The 185 or the 205?

[WillKuenzel]

I still don't buy this, and I don't think John Berardi does either. He talks about how poorly most grapplers cut for a match and how the techniques used are really dumb.

Explain, specifically, a way that is more ideal than my example. When these guys "walk around" 40 lbs over their weight class, are they at 8% body fat, or are they just carrying a ton of weight?

I'm about 215 lbs today at probably 9%. If I wanted to, I could probably cut down and fight at 170 in like 3 weeks. But all that would happen is I would lose a ton of muscle and a ton of strength, which I spent a lot of time gaining. And I wouldn't be able to put back on all that extra muscle between weigh-in the night before and the actual fight. I think it would be much better for me to sit at 185-190, ripped, and then drop my glycogen and fat, which I'd regain.


How much percentage of your body is made up of water?

[KingJustin]

You don't drop bodyfat by depleting glycogen and water. You realize that don't you? I don't know of anybody that can drop 4% of body fat in 3-4 days, especially at the level that these guys are at. Bodybuilders can't do that and they reach a much more depleted state than these guys would ever want to be in.

Hah, I did not know this.



Who would you rather fight? The 185 or the 205?

I'd be more interested in knowing their body composition during the weigh in.

I don't see why the 205 lb guy that started at 15% and dropped to 4% for weigh in is "bigger" than the 185 lb guy that started at 7% and dropped to 4%. At weigh in's, they are both 170lbs and 4% body fat, with glycogen/water levels depleted. Why does the guy that originally started at 205 lbs have any advantage in gaining the weight back?



How much percentage of your body is made up of water?

A lot, but what is the range between the maximum your body can hold and the minimum needed to stay alive?


P.S. do bodybuilders also drop their glycogen/water levels before competition?

[Rusty]

There's a video on youtube of Jim Wendler interviewing Matt Kroczaleski and they talk about cutting weight.

Here's the video, it's about 2:30 in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc06N-Y2750

Watch all 5 parts of the interview if you have the time.

[WillKuenzel]

I don't see why the 205 lb guy that started at 15% and dropped to 4% for weigh in is "bigger" than the 185 lb guy that started at 7% and dropped to 4%. At weigh in's, they are both 170lbs and 4% body fat, with glycogen/water levels depleted. Why does the guy that originally started at 205 lbs have any advantage in gaining the weight back?You're still thinking that you're dropping body fat. That ain't happening. Do you lose fat by going into the sauna? Guys that weigh more going into fights generally are carrying more muscle mass. More muscle mass means they have more water and more glycogen that can be depleted. They have more readily available weight to lose. Not fat, that can't be lost in the time frame you're stating. If that were the case, bodybuilders wouldn't diet for 12-16 weeks. It would only take them 4 days (according to you) to lose from 7 down to 4 percent. Justin, it took me 6 weeks to go from 7% to 4.5%.


P.S. do bodybuilders also drop their glycogen/water levels before competition?Yes. On top of the fact that they're less than 4% bodyfat, they too cut down to make weight and even at less than 4% can still drop 2-3lbs. Bodybuilders start replenishing glycogen into the muscle a couple days prior to the competition in hopes that it fills the muscle bellies to look bigger but they'll continue to dehydrate themselves up until Saturday morning. Lasix is very popular.

[KingJustin]

You're still thinking that you're dropping body fat. That ain't happening. Do you lose fat by going into the sauna? Guys that weigh more going into fights generally are carrying more muscle mass. More muscle mass means they have more water and more glycogen that can be depleted. They have more readily available weight to lose. Not fat, that can't be lost in the time frame you're stating. If that were the case, bodybuilders wouldn't diet for 12-16 weeks. It would only take them 4 days (according to you) to lose from 7 down to 4 percent. Justin, it took me 6 weeks to go from 7% to 4.5%.

Ok, this makes senese, but how much water/glycogen (in lbs) can someone at, say, 200lbs/4% BF with topped off levels actually lose without losing significant amounts of muscle/fat?

Side question: Could the fighter theoretically eat at close to maintenance (say, 12x BW in kcals instead of 15x BW) if he didn't eat carbs with the same effect as another fighter that just starves himself?



Bodybuilders start replenishing glycogen into the muscle a couple days prior to the competition in hopes that it fills the muscle bellies to look bigger

So they drop the glycogen in hopes to super-compensate, and the goal is to max out your glycogen levels?
(This has nothing to do with the argument, I'm just curious)

[Big_Byrd52]

Its all water weight, not diet and fat loss. Its like when i compete in the 198 lb weight class, 3 days before the weigh-in am weighing 225-228. On fri morning i weigh in at 198, then by the time i go to bed that night i am back up to 225-228, and lift at my normal weight the day of the meet.

and to the question about how much can one drop? my last meet i was 234 at 6-7%bf and cut down to 198, then right back up.

[Big_Byrd52]

I still don't buy this.

My idea of an ideal cut is:
218 lbs, 7% body fat with glycogen and water levels topped out. ~4 days before the fight he starts to drop all his glycogen and water and weighs in at 205 (3% BF) the night before the fight, then puts it all back on before the fight (maybe even adds an extra couple pounds)

Be specific. What is more ideal than that?
Walking around at lower than 7% "permanently" is unhealthy, and it's not really possible to be lower than 3%.




first of all, ur line of thinking is ALL wrong. carb and water depletion will not make him lose ANY body fat--- it makes him lose carbs and water. he is still the same bodfat level at 218 as he is at 205. he drink fluids and eats salty foods and he is back to 218.

[Big_Byrd52]

Ok, this makes senese, but how much water/glycogen (in lbs) can someone at, say, 200lbs/4% BF with topped off levels actually lose without losing significant amounts of muscle/fat?

SAFELY AND FAIRLY EASILY, ABOUT 10% OF BODYWEIGHT. CAN GET UP TO 15% BUT THAT IS VERY VERY TOUGH TO GET OFF, LET ALONE PUT BACK ON WITHOUT IT AFFECTING PERFORMANCE.



Side question: Could the fighter theoretically eat at close to maintenance (say, 12x BW in kcals instead of 15x BW) if he didn't eat carbs with the same effect as another fighter that just starves himself?

YES VERY SIMILAR. THE IDEA IS TO EAT MORE CALORIES THE LAST FEW DAYS. BUT U HAVE TO DO IT WITH HIGH CALORIE EASILY DIGESTABLE FOODS LIKE SALMON, EGGS, NUTS, OILS, WHIPPING CREAM, SHAKES... U HAVE TO GE THE CALORIES WITH OUT THE BULK.. SO CALORIE DENSE FOOD, THE MOST CALS FOR THE SMALLEST PORTION SIZES.





So they drop the glycogen in hopes to super-compensate, and the goal is to max out your glycogen levels?
(This has nothing to do with the argument, I'm just curious)

YES, FOR EVERY GRAM OF GLYCOGEN STORED IN THE MUSCLES, U STORE 3 GRAMS OF WATER WITH IT. SUPER-COMPENSATION IS NOT SO MUCH A DESIRE FOR THE FIGHTER, BUT REPLINSHMENT OF STORES. THE SUPER COMP WILL HELP STORE THEM FASTER THO.

[KingJustin]

Thanks bro.

I rescind my comments.