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View Full Version : Squat Ratios - where is my weakness?



Bob
02-02-2008, 06:35 PM
Wondering if anyone has seen anything online that discusses different types of squats, their ratios and perhaps where someone might have a weakness or imbalance??
Like Poliquin's article on T-Nation where he talks about "Achieving Structural Balance"..
http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459454
however, it's only for upperbody...

ANY advice/info is greatly appreciated!! I think I have a low back, hamstring weakness... and I know most of you guys will just say to keep squatting..
These are my numbers: (all tested within the last 3 weeks)
500 x 1 Squat - belt only - Competition depth - stance between medium to wide.. (just set this PR today.. whoo hoo - it's been a long time coming)
445 x 1 ATF Squat - belt only - narrow stance
365 x 1 Front Squat - belt only
345 x 20 Squat - belt only, medium stance
Box Squats: (about 13 inches is my parallel)

380 x 1 on 9.5 inch box
450 x 1 on 11.5 inch box
480 on 14 inch box
520 on 16 inch box
485 x 1 Conventional DL
490 x 1 Sumo DL
385 x 2 SLDL
No GHR or Reverse hypers at gym - but I am close to one rep of a GHR from the floor

My current stats:
5ft 8.75 inches, 248 lbs, 43 yrs young short arms, long torso, femur dominant Strength Goals are for PL'ing, Strongman and Highlander game competitions... would like to do BJJ too-if I could find the time Obviously.. Masters Division Only 1.5 yrs of "real" strength training.. on/off lifting since age 13 (details in my old journal)
Training consists of 40% Westside/conjugate, 20% 5x5, 20% Event Training, 5% 20 Rep Squats/DLs, 10% GPP (OL'ing,Sleds,KBs,Crossfit,tabata, etc.),5% other Sports (BB, VB, Hiking, Kids, etc.)

Klotz
02-02-2008, 07:16 PM
I'd say you're pretty much strong all over.

http://www.t-nation.com/article/bodybuilding/how_much_can_you_lift_wimp&cr=bodybuilding
Says your front squat is about on par, but that thing is a pretty rough estimate.

Bob
02-02-2008, 10:01 PM
Thanks Klotz... that's an interesting article.. I guess it kinda says my DL either really sucks or somehow my squat is just much better?? I just wonder if this does indeed point to a weak back/hamstrings??

Anyone else got a thought? or some resource?

Sensei
02-02-2008, 10:16 PM
I wouldn't worry about it Bear. Most people who don't spend a lot of time squatting have deadlifts that are better than their squats. PLers generally have more even numbers (unless they are geared to the hilt and then the numbers become scewed greatly).

deeder
02-02-2008, 11:29 PM
I wouldn't worry about it Bear. Most people who don't spend a lot of time squatting have deadlifts that are better than their squats. PLers generally have more even numbers (unless they are geared to the hilt and then the numbers become scewed greatly).

Agreed.

My deadlift is right on par with my squat.

Bob
02-02-2008, 11:35 PM
Thanks Sensei and Deeder...
What about the comparisons with the Front SQ and Boxes? Are there any numbers out there that compare these with a competition SQ?

And on the Glute-Ham Raise... wouldn't you think that I should be able to do a couple of them from the floor by now with a 500 SQ??

But then again.. I don't really know how the floor compares to an actual GHR machine??

deeder
02-02-2008, 11:39 PM
Thanks Sensei and Deeder...
What about the comparisons with the Front SQ and Boxes? Are there any numbers out there that compare these with a competition SQ?

And on the Glute-Ham Raise... wouldn't you think that I should be able to do a couple of them from the floor by now with a 500 SQ??

But then again.. I don't really know how the floor compares to an actual GHR machine??

I don't know about numbers that compare front and box squats to competition numbers... I know I've read some percentages for box squats in some westside articles but I can't picture you as the multi-ply kind of guy....

I find that GHR's are easier on an actual GHR 'machine'. Off the floor I can't even do one with my body weight but on a GHR I can do a set of 5 or 6 holding a 25lb plate.

Fuzzy
02-03-2008, 12:02 AM
Oooh, I got you by one pound in the atg squats pops!

I would say you look very balanced, the 500 to 455 sounds pretty good, maybe a little too much on the atg side.

On a more off topic note, how are ya?

Bob
02-03-2008, 07:24 AM
Thanks Deeder... you're right, no ply right now... I'll take a look back thru the Westside articles and see if I can find something.. even if they do somethem to an equipped squat, maybe I can back some numbers out..

Thanks Fuzzy.. doing ok.. not as impressive as you though... so you are thinking that my competition/break parallel squat should be higher? If you are 1 lb ATF stronger, what's your break parallel squat at these days?

Fuzzy
02-03-2008, 01:14 PM
Thanks Deeder... you're right, no ply right now... I'll take a look back thru the Westside articles and see if I can find something.. even if they do somethem to an equipped squat, maybe I can back some numbers out..

Thanks Fuzzy.. doing ok.. not as impressive as you though... so you are thinking that my competition/break parallel squat should be higher? If you are 1 lb ATF stronger, what's your break parallel squat at these days?

I have absoloutely no idea what my paralellel is, I cant remember the last time I didn't go deep. I was judt going by a few Oly and strong man guys I know who compete in powerlifting, they usually have about 70 pounds difference.

Bob
02-04-2008, 08:18 AM
I have absoloutely no idea what my paralellel is, I cant remember the last time I didn't go deep. I was judt going by a few Oly and strong man guys I know who compete in powerlifting, they usually have about 70 pounds difference.
Thanks Fuzzy...

Ben Moore
02-04-2008, 09:07 AM
I think your along the lines of alot of raw lifter so I wouldn't worry about the differences.

Your dl is probably help up by your short arms and bigger torso. Keep box squatting and it will come around.

What is the reasoning for the box 4" in the hole? Just curious.

Bob
02-04-2008, 09:35 AM
I think your along the lines of alot of raw lifter so I wouldn't worry about the differences.

Your dl is probably help up by your short arms and bigger torso. Keep box squatting and it will come around.

What is the reasoning for the box 4" in the hole? Just curious.
Thanks Ben...
You think my DL is "helped" by short arms?? I have to basically go down to almost a parallel squat to do a convention DL... that's why I moved to sumo..
or did you mean "held"?

I do the deep boxes b/c of some articles I read from some speed trainers... PL'er don't nessecarily need them.. but deep boxes will supposedly help the hams and glutes building explosive speed. Which I really need...

Although... I did read one Westside article
http://www.westside-barbell.com/Articles%20Top%20Ten/PDF.Files/05PDF/BOX%20SQUATTING%20BENEFITS.pdf
Where "John Stafford has sat on a 6 inch box; he is 6 feet tall, 285 pounds."
and "at 290 body weight, can jump onto a 35 inch box with a pair of 35 pound
dumbbells."

Stumprrp
02-04-2008, 10:31 AM
on the glute hams bear - on a regular glute ham machine i can do sets of 10 with a band wrapped around my head, you should try them on a machine

your numbers look good man.

Ben Moore
02-04-2008, 10:33 AM
Haha, I meant held.

Thanks for the explanation.

Big_Byrd52
02-04-2008, 11:36 AM
looks like pretty well rounded lifts. if u could tell me where u fail in ur rep sets and 1 rep maxes i could offer more help. a video would be great.

where does ur DL stall at?

Big_Byrd52
02-04-2008, 11:57 AM
I'd say you're pretty much strong all over.

http://www.t-nation.com/article/bodybuilding/how_much_can_you_lift_wimp&cr=bodybuilding
Says your front squat is about on par, but that thing is a pretty rough estimate.

i dont think that is anywhere close to accurate. At least not for me.


i should be pulling 987 based on my 705 raw squat max...

or

i should be squatting 480 based on my 675 raw DL max...

at least my actual pull is 68% of my projected pull, and my projected squat is 68% of my actual squat... now im getting confused. in short... its a bit off.

Bob
02-05-2008, 08:36 AM
Thanks Stumpster... but that's the problem.. I don't access to a GHR machine, so I was trying to get an idea of how it compares to doing them on the floor??

NP Ben.. thanks..

Thanks Big Byrd.. Sam, I usually fail on a ME Squat in the hole.. if I get it moving, then I can usually bring it all the way up... Same thing with a DL, if I get it moving off the floor, especially more then 3-4 inches, then I will complete it..

I don't have any ME vids.. but I have these squat for reps vids from the WBB contest.. I did 315 x 22 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6S0KzT0Wcw
and a different angle here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbFgC3S3fiQ

My ME squat might be just a little bit wider stance, but not more then an inch... I'm pretty good keeping my form consistant - light or heavy weights...

About the only difference now, is that I've lately been wrapping my thumb on top of the bar instead of wrapping it.. to keep my forearm/wrist straight.. not bending my wrist... I learned that this relieves the tension on the elbow - which can cause lateral epicondylitis/tennis elbow .. which I just rehab'd from.

Big_Byrd52
02-06-2008, 09:08 PM
Well i can tell u fo sho u are one sick bastage! haha

From watching the side vid i seriously doubt it is a hamstring or glute weakness. on all ur reps coming out of the hole ur hips moved back placing all the emphasis on ur hammies.

i dont think u have a back weakness because u never let urself get rounded over when u were tired.

i would say do some more work for ur quads, close stance (shoulder width), raised heal squatting. the main thing is going to be the hips tho. the only way to do that is multiple singles and doubles in the 80% range. a peaking cycle is not about getting stronger. its about getting ur body coordinited, geting ur timing and rythem down during heavy squats. u cant do that high reps or with limit weights. 4-6 weeks of 6 sets of 2 at 80% and ur squat will probably jump quite a bit. ur form looks dead on.

Bob
02-07-2008, 07:35 AM
Thanks Sam...
Haha.. I don't do those high reps very offer... but this WBB forum was having a challenge(http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=97291), so this old man had to prove we could keep up with the young'uns... lol

I really didn't think about the quads.. maybe I haven't been hitting them hard enough??? Reading so many Westside/Tate articles - I've tried concentrating on the hams and glutes.. but without the benefit of a GHR or reverse hyper..

And it looks likes I'm going to be getting on the right track... I've recently been doing a lot of 3s, 2s and singles.. right now, my squat/DL routine follows something like this:

ME Squats - work up to 1 RM
5x5 Squats
ME Squats - 3s@80%, 2s @90% and singles @ 95
DE Squats
...Repeat...

I usually get 2-3 days rest between Squat/DL workouts... Biz Traveling gets in the way of having exact days of the week for workouts... but I'm pretty consistant... getting 2 Squat/DL a week, along with 2 heavy Upper workouts, 1 event training and 1 OL/Speed/Plyo a week... sometimes I have to combine them into one workout..

90kg_pwrlftr
02-07-2008, 08:42 AM
a peaking cycle is not about getting stronger. its about getting ur body coordinited, geting ur timing and rythem down during heavy squats. u cant do that high reps or with limit weights. 4-6 weeks of 6 sets of 2 at 80% and ur squat will probably jump quite a bit. ur form looks dead on.

excellent advise - wish I had taken it 4 weeks ago!

Big_Byrd52
02-07-2008, 12:44 PM
thats good. the 3s,2s,1s, should not be maxes tho. u want to stay in the 80-85% range so u can build build force and power. have u heard of the inverted U? hatfield talks about it alot. it shows the optimal weight range for power and strength production, which lies.... at about 80%.

i have had great results with this for peaking routine only. this follows a couple months of higher volume work with 5s, and ocassional 10s.:

I MUST ADD I USE THIS FOR RAW (BELT ONLY). I DO NOT NOR HAVE I EVER TRAINED IN GEAR.

SQ/DL tues(heavy) and fri. (light)

week1
day 1- SQ 80% 6x2, rack pulls at knee for 2x3-5 reps (with 1-2 left in the tank each set.), GHR 3x12-15 (u can just do lying leg curls)

day 2- below parallel comp squat beltless (2" below) for 5x5 at 50-60% (usually 60%), SLDL off a plate for 3x10 w/ same weight. only last set of 10 is difficult, but not a max usually.


week 2

day 1- SQ 82.5% for 6x2, rack pull or off the floor for same as wk 1, same assist.

day 2- same. increase SLDL weight if u can.

week 3

day 1- SQ 85% 6x2, again rack or floor ur choice 2x3-5 reps. whatever u are feeling that day. but not max efforts, leave 2 reps in the tank each set. same assist.

day 2- same

week 4

day 1- SQ 3x10 at 50%, near max DL test, abs and done. no more. rest week

day 2- SQ 6-8x2 at 60% moving fairly quick, 90-120 secs between. walk lightly on treadmill for 20 minutes on small incline (2.5-3 speed at 5 incline). should just start to break a sweat as u get off.

Weeks 5, 6, and 7
repeat cycle

week 8
complete rest from squatting or pulling. light cardio both days as mentioned earlier. I have tested my rep max here before, then rested the next week, then max attempt on week 10. the set of 5 will tell me about where i should be on the single. 5reps on squat is about 87% of max.

Week 9
retest ur max squat.

Big_Byrd52
02-07-2008, 12:49 PM
u could also start this at 75% the first week, then 77.5 and 80, then start week 5 at 80% and work up 82.5 and 85.

RhodeHouse
02-08-2008, 12:29 PM
Way too much thinking about this. Treat each lift as a seperate lift, because they are. I know that's not what you want to hear, but, it's the truth. If your Squat and DL go up, your training is on. If your Front Squat doesn't help your Competition Squat, don't do it. If you just lift to be strong, compare each lift with what you've already done. ie: break a PR.

Don't overthink this stuff. It's not that complicated.

Bob
02-19-2008, 08:35 AM
Wow.. 2 1000 lb squatters fighting over giving an old-man some advice.. THANKS..

I see both of your points & suggestions..

Sam-I'll give this cycle a try - I just have to figure out when to throw event training into the picture. Stones especially. Also - you don't do any Plyo work?

Rhodes-One of the reasons I went down this path was because of the Westside mentality of working on your weaknesses. I'm trying to see where the weakness is in my squat to see what I need to concentrate more on. I guess what you are saying is that everything is weak? And just keep doing them all?

Thanks guys...

Big_Byrd52
02-19-2008, 10:08 AM
u can do events on ur squat DL day after squats if ur goin heavy and u dont have a comp comin up soon. substitute the racks for ur stones or any onther heavy low back movement.

if u dont have a comp soon, then back off the events a little bit if ur main focus is the squat.

Travis Bell
02-19-2008, 10:11 AM
Sam, you never train in your gear? Even before a meet?

Big_Byrd52
02-19-2008, 11:42 AM
Sam, you never train in your gear? Even before a meet?

no, i take a max 4 weeks out on squat and DL and 3 weeks out on bench. thats the extent of my gear training. so with 2 meets a year and maybe one other max test day during the year, thats 5 times in my gear for the year.

i dont use knee wraps and rarely use a belt either

Travis Bell
02-19-2008, 01:05 PM
wow, thats impressive.

are you in the animal cage this year?

Big_Byrd52
02-19-2008, 01:18 PM
yea, sat mornin at 11 am with brian weston. i think i am just gonna squat raw or in knee wraps. they dont have a mono or comp squat bar.

Bob
02-19-2008, 06:20 PM
Thanks again Sam... and thanks for the gear info - maybe you and Travis should start a new thread on that... it may get buried in this one... and a lot of the geared PL'ers may find it quite useful..

So will you try to break your raw squat in the cage at the Arnold? Or just do reps with something light - like 650?? lol

I think my next question is going to be on your cutting expertise... I've heard you've cut over 25 lbs in just a few days before a meet?

Travis Bell
02-19-2008, 06:37 PM
haha I know my bench stuff pretty well, but Sam would be the one on all other gear, especially squatting

Anyone that can take gear once before a meet and crank out the numbers he does deserves a round of applause

Big_Byrd52
02-19-2008, 09:48 PM
Thanks again Sam... and thanks for the gear info - maybe you and Travis should start a new thread on that... it may get buried in this one... and a lot of the geared PL'ers may find it quite useful..

So will you try to break your raw squat in the cage at the Arnold? Or just do reps with something light - like 650?? lol

I think my next question is going to be on your cutting expertise... I've heard you've cut over 25 lbs in just a few days before a meet?

i havent decided yet. they have me and brian weston for a squat off for now, but i have not talked to him. i proposed a fred hatfield style squat off with House, a pro BB with some giant legs, the way platz and hatfield did.

bu i may just squat raw or with just knee wraps just to see where im at.

Big_Byrd52
02-19-2008, 09:49 PM
haha I know my bench stuff pretty well, but Sam would be the one on all other gear, especially squatting

Anyone that can take gear once before a meet and crank out the numbers he does deserves a round of applause

thanks trav, but i better get my chit together if im gonna be able to fend off shawns bench! an 855 one board.... shaking head...

Travis Bell
02-19-2008, 10:56 PM
well PM me if you want any ideas, more than happy to help in any way I can

Big_Byrd52
02-20-2008, 06:54 PM
well PM me if you want any ideas, more than happy to help in any way I can

ill take u up on that bout shirt training. im not going to pretend i know what im doing haha