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View Full Version : More ideas on westside vs HFT for raw lifters.



Fuzzy
02-21-2008, 04:38 AM
QUESTION I WOULD LIKE TO PUT OUT THERE.

Is westside good for raw lifting or should raw lifters incorporate more frequency in their training? I mean, lets look at the ultimate RRAAWRZZ!!11! Oly lifters, we seem to defy every convention from squatting with huge knee travel to squatting heavy twice a day 6 times a week. So, if Oly lifters can condition themselves to this kind of frequency then why would it not be beneficial for raw lifters to do the same?

Think on it...

Obviously westside is geared to geared lifters. These nutters are in 2-3 plys putting insanely huge weights that I could not even comprehend moving on their backs. Having this much weight on you, regardless of gear imo is alot more taxing then full range raw stuff. It is alot more traumatic on the body for geared powerlifters than raw lifters and as such require more recovery time.

This is why the westside template is brilliant.

Even though I am ****ed after Oly training with full atg squats the hardest squat of my life was 528 in IPF gear, unracking that weight was terrifying alone and the impact on my body was much larger then any heavy raw work. That is 1 ply with a 115ish gain. Could you imagine putting over 300+ of your raw on your back.... **** geared lifters are insane.

SO westside with this in mind is geared for 2 maximal days, so maybe it isnt the best most effiecient system for the raw lifter ( I am talking training days and split) were as higher frequncy programs are better wich seems to be the trend with Oly lifters, raw lifters, and some IPF guys. Without this super high loading raw lifters can up the frequency.

With the right conditioning build up and cycle, programs like the Sheiko and Smolov are much more efficient for raw lifters because raw lifting imo is easier to recover from then puttign such insane weights on your body.

Thoughts?

Travis Bell
02-21-2008, 07:37 AM
Personally I disagree completly. When training raw on WS, you just need to listen to your body and know when to deload. Most people tend to skip over that part of a Max Effort training routine. Also they make their speed days too heavy which is a huge mistake.

Now granted I'm not a full meet lifter, but I still train all three lifts on a WS schedule. Works just great for me and I've been doing strict WS for probably 3 years now

joey54
02-21-2008, 06:05 PM
I am surpised more have not commented on this. I am not a powerlifter, but love checking out what you guys are discussing over here. Fuzzy makes some interesting points, aren't there more people who have opinions on this?

Fuzzy
02-21-2008, 06:30 PM
Personally I disagree completly. When training raw on WS, you just need to listen to your body and know when to deload. Most people tend to skip over that part of a Max Effort training routine. Also they make their speed days too heavy which is a huge mistake.

Now granted I'm not a full meet lifter, but I still train all three lifts on a WS schedule. Works just great for me and I've been doing strict WS for probably 3 years now

Point taken but I was merely voicing observations. Just look at Olympic lifters, we put our body through full ranges at maximal weights daily and witht he right program and diet, plus good resting and massage this is completely doable for alot of people.

The overall hidden point I was trying to make is that the human body can handle so much more than we think. Deloading is irrespective of this, EVERYONE should deload once in a while


I am surpised more have not commented on this. I am not a powerlifter, but love checking out what you guys are discussing over here. Fuzzy makes some interesting points, aren't there more people who have opinions on this?

Well, I was just thinking about it, so many raw powerlifters have huge success with the Smolov squat cycle, Sheiko or Coan bench routine and the Coan Philipi deadlift cycles, all have alot of frequency, albeit not at the same time.

And once again, looking at how Oly lifters train year round it makes sense. You could not do a high frequency regime in 3 plys simply because... well ****, thats alot of weight suited or not.

Sensei
02-21-2008, 06:43 PM
OL and PL, at least at elite levels, are apples and oranges. Not to say that PL doesn't require tremendous skill/technique, but I think most would agree that there is a world of difference between the two when it comes to the technique issue.

Some PLers can tolerate higher frequency, but generally, advanced PLers (and especially heavier guys) are not going to do well with it.

Sheiko I've never tried, so I can't personally comment on it, but many I know who've tried it had numbers drop. I'm sure there are advanced PLers who can keep up w. Smolov, but I can't see anyone advanced thriving on that unless they are taking plenty of "supplements" and even then, I don't know why anyone would choose that.

Killa Kurt
02-21-2008, 07:07 PM
I don't believe in over-training anymore. I think it's your mind telling you that it is bored, OR it's a lack of rest/nutrition. I feel like I could train all day long as long as I get enough rest and stuff my face........

RhodeHouse
02-21-2008, 07:52 PM
Westside is not geared toward geared lifters. If you look at the stuff from 10-15 years ago, the gear didn't give you much. Westside has evolved over the years. The template that you are familiar with is perfect for the raw lifter. Follow the template - it works.

Raw lifting is tougher on the joints that aren't protected by the gear. (hips, groin, shoulders) It may not be as taxing on the CNS as geared lifting, but it's still very tough on the body.

Don't re-invent the wheel.

Hazerboy
02-21-2008, 08:07 PM
QUESTION I WOULD LIKE TO PUT OUT THERE.

Obviously westside is geared to geared lifters. These nutters are in 2-3 plys putting insanely huge weights that I could not even comprehend moving on their backs. Having this much weight on you, regardless of gear imo is alot more taxing then full range raw stuff. It is alot more traumatic on the body for geared powerlifters than raw lifters and as such require more recovery time.



I was under the impression that westside was based on some Russia research taken in the 70s/80s. While I haven't looked at the research specifically, I'm pretty sure gear either wasn't around at that time, or wasn't used in the east. My point being is that I don't think Westside is so "obvoiusly" meant for geared lifters.

Joe Defranco, for instance, uses a variation of westside for his high school and collegiate athletes.

As far as whether or not geared lifting is "more taxing" than full range raw stuff, I think this would very for the lifter. How "taxing" a lift is, at least from what I know, depends on how quickly one can heal from one workout to another. This seems like something that would depend on the lifter.

Also, don't forget the supposed "protective" aspect of gear, i.e. the idea that gear helps prevent injuries ("No one rips a pec in a bench shirt!). Wouldn't this aspect, at least in appearance, make it seem as if gear is less taxing then raw lifting?

I'm with Sensei on this one. Oly and powerlifting are apples and oranges.

chris mason
02-21-2008, 09:31 PM
The comparison is somewhat invalid.

The powerlifts are an expression of the body's ability to move a given load through space with a minimum of technique and a maximum of brute strength. The term slow strength is sometimes used. An absolute maximum back squat to parallel requires a very different expression of muscular strength than a maximum squat clean and press.

The difference in the goals of the respective sports requires a difference in training. Olympic lifting has a much higher skill component and therefore requires much greater frequency of practice of the movements. This frequency is only possible with lower percentage loads.

Travis Bell
02-21-2008, 09:46 PM
Point taken but I was merely voicing observations.


No, its a good question, I wasn't meaning to put it out there like you asked a stupid question, many people want to add more volume and frequency into their lifts.

Unfortunatly overtraining isn't a myth or mind game. I watched a 425lb raw bencher (600lb geared) go down to barely benching 315lbs raw (wouldn't even touch a shirt) in a matter of two months because he pushed himself waaay to hard doing too much stuff - one of the things he'd done was get on a sheiko routine but it was for OHP. Now, us young bucks can push ourselves alot further because we have a much bigger fudge factor so if we blow it our bodies will make up for our mistakes alot quicker. The older the body gets though, the more it'll expect you to not make those mistakes because you should have it figured out by now hahaha.

I can definatly sympathize with the feeling that I could train all day though. I love training, especially bench days and hate to see them come to an end, but sometimes I have to force myself to start thinking about the next workout, always be thinking about the next step

deeder
02-21-2008, 11:05 PM
The difference between olympic lifting and powerlifting is huge. None of you has bothered to look at the VAST differences between multi-ply and single-ply powerlifting or even single-ply and raw powerlifting.

The successful IPF lifters do not follow westside templates. They follow high-volume, high frequency routines. Many of the top Canadian IPF lifters follow 5 or 6 day a week programs.

Fuzzy
02-22-2008, 02:29 AM
I don't believe in over-training anymore. I think it's your mind telling you that it is bored, OR it's a lack of rest/nutrition. I feel like I could train all day long as long as I get enough rest and stuff my face........

Yeah, I train with soe absoloute animals who dont even know the concept, they have been lifting for years in sheds and local garages and have deveoped to the point were they lift heavy everyday.


Westside is not geared toward geared lifters. If you look at the stuff from 10-15 years ago, the gear didn't give you much. Westside has evolved over the years. The template that you are familiar with is perfect for the raw lifter. Follow the template - it works.

Raw lifting is tougher on the joints that aren't protected by the gear. (hips, groin, shoulders) It may not be as taxing on the CNS as geared lifting, but it's still very tough on the body.

Don't re-invent the wheel.

Couldn't wait for your reply!

I was not saying the template doesnt work, ofcourse it works, I am saying that if Olympic lifters can condition themselves to very effective higher frequency then why cant raw lifters?

I am just putting the idea out there, sure Oly lifting and powerlifting are different but when talking about raw lifting then Oly and raw do have alot more parallels.

I hope I am not comeing off as insolent, I have said again and again that unlike most teens i do what the guys bigger and stronger then me tell me to do. Once again, just putting out an idea.


I was under the impression that westside was based on some Russia research taken in the 70s/80s. While I haven't looked at the research specifically, I'm pretty sure gear either wasn't around at that time, or wasn't used in the east. My point being is that I don't think Westside is so "obvoiusly" meant for geared lifters.

True, but maximal loads twice a week and then DE loads twice a week seems much more friedly to a multi ply lifter and the rests are much more needed than a raw lifter. People can adapt, i have seen it alot.


Joe Defranco, for instance, uses a variation of westside for his high school and collegiate athletes.


yes, but how much other training does an athlete have?


As far as whether or not geared lifting is "more taxing" than full range raw stuff, I think this would very for the lifter. How "taxing" a lift is, at least from what I know, depends on how quickly one can heal from one workout to another. This seems like something that would depend on the lifter.

Sure it is dependable on the lifter but I see too many less than genetically blessed lifters work up over 6-12 months to soe serious frequency. that is they key, WORKING UP TO IT.


Also, don't forget the supposed "protective" aspect of gear, i.e. the idea that gear helps prevent injuries ("No one rips a pec in a bench shirt!). Wouldn't this aspect, at least in appearance, make it seem as if gear is less taxing then raw lifting?

To a point, I never lifted in multiplys but geared powerlifting was alot harder then any Oly lifting I have done. I have Olympic squatted with no belt or wraps 462 pounds, that felt nothing like 528 in a single ply. In lys you are dealing with loads beyond your body's capacity, it is some crazy ****, i cant even fathom 2+ ply lifting.


I'm with Sensei on this one. Oly and powerlifting are apples and oranges.

Lifting raw is lifting raw, sure there are different styles but the point remains.


The difference between olympic lifting and powerlifting is huge. None of you has bothered to look at the VAST differences between multi-ply and single-ply powerlifting or even single-ply and raw powerlifting.

The successful IPF lifters do not follow westside templates. They follow high-volume, high frequency routines. Many of the top Canadian IPF lifters follow 5 or 6 day a week programs.

Bingo.

chris mason
02-22-2008, 06:17 AM
The difference between olympic lifting and powerlifting is huge. None of you has bothered to look at the VAST differences between multi-ply and single-ply powerlifting or even single-ply and raw powerlifting.

The successful IPF lifters do not follow westside templates. They follow high-volume, high frequency routines. Many of the top Canadian IPF lifters follow 5 or 6 day a week programs.

There need not be a dramatic difference in training volume or intensity with geared vs. raw lifting.

There is definitely more than one way to skin a cat. Westside works and works very well. You can get strong training other ways as well, of that there is no doubt.

Sensei
02-22-2008, 06:49 AM
The difference between olympic lifting and powerlifting is huge. None of you has bothered to look at the VAST differences between multi-ply and single-ply powerlifting or even single-ply and raw powerlifting.

The successful IPF lifters do not follow westside templates. They follow high-volume, high frequency routines. Many of the top Canadian IPF lifters follow 5 or 6 day a week programs.
You are grossly overstating this. While it's true the majority do not use WS, that is true of the general PL population. There are plenty of USAPL and IPF lifters that use WS.

Travis Bell
02-22-2008, 10:10 AM
Fuzzy you're oversimplifying the issue a little bit. Lifting isn't lifting. I wish Travis Mash were on this board because he could really shed some light on the issue. But if you ever read his log you'll see that he trains completly differently when he's training for Oly lifting vs. powerlifting.

Yes, if you try and condition your body to lifting heavy every session, it might eventually work, but its just not going to work as well as something like WS will work. DE day isn't just about having a light day so you don't overtrain, its also about teaching your muscles to move weight quickly. Developing explosive strength. You can't teach your muscles to move weight quickly if its heavy

vdizenzo
02-22-2008, 01:12 PM
I benched 600 unequipped in competition using a WS template. I believe Rhodes is doing an article on it.

Chubrock
02-22-2008, 01:37 PM
I benched 600 unequipped in competition using a WS template. I believe Rhodes is doing an article on it.

How the hell is Rhodes gonna write with one eye?

deeder
02-22-2008, 03:33 PM
How the hell is Rhodes gonna write with one eye?

With his hands :hello:

TommyBoy
02-22-2008, 05:27 PM
The difference between olympic lifting and powerlifting is huge. None of you has bothered to look at the VAST differences between multi-ply and single-ply powerlifting or even single-ply and raw powerlifting.

The successful IPF lifters do not follow westside templates. They follow high-volume, high frequency routines. Many of the top Canadian IPF lifters follow 5 or 6 day a week programs.This is because the people in the IPF assume that people who train using the westside template, are all loud-mouthed-shaved head-covered in tattoos-cranked to the gills-cheaters. If they gave the template a chance, they would get pretty f'n strong.

This is one of the many reasons the IPF is in their own little world:rolleyes:

There is definitely more than one way to skin a cat. Westside works and works very well. You can get strong training other ways as well, of that there is no doubt.Exactly. If you train using a particular method, and you do so very very diligently and intensely, then you should get strong. If you're not getting strong, then you're doing something incorrectly.

You are grossly overstating this. While it's true the majority do not use WS, that is true of the general PL population. There are plenty of USAPL and IPF lifters that use WS.Yep, I know quite a few actually. It's usually the people who have never tried the westside template who assume that nobody uses it.

Fuzzy
02-22-2008, 10:37 PM
Fuzzy you're oversimplifying the issue a little bit. Lifting isn't lifting. I wish Travis Mash were on this board because he could really shed some light on the issue. But if you ever read his log you'll see that he trains completly differently when he's training for Oly lifting vs. powerlifting.

Yes, if you try and condition your body to lifting heavy every session, it might eventually work, but its just not going to work as well as something like WS will work. DE day isn't just about having a light day so you don't overtrain, its also about teaching your muscles to move weight quickly. Developing explosive strength. You can't teach your muscles to move weight quickly if its heavy

You are not getting my point... how many times do i have to point to olympic lifters to make it clear what I am trying to convey, we lift at insane peeds as well as alot of heavy work, and we do it often. And seeing how we can adapt to such loading then why is so hard to beleive that higher frequncy will work to.

The human body can adapt, i know it goes against all the mainstram beliefs but you would not bleive how much the human body can handle unassisted.

chris mason
02-22-2008, 11:36 PM
You are not getting my point... how many times do i have to point to olympic lifters to make it clear what I am trying to convey, we lift at insane peeds as well as alot of heavy work, and we do it often. And seeing how we can adapt to such loading then why is so hard to beleive that higher frequncy will work to.

The human body can adapt, i know it goes against all the mainstram beliefs but you would not bleive how much the human body can handle unassisted.




Fuzzy, what is your 1RM max squat Olympic style?

What are your loads for working sets and how many of such sets do you perform and how often?

Chris

RhodeHouse
02-23-2008, 12:13 AM
The one thing that gets missed alot with Westside is the over-complication of it. People think it's chains and bands, 8x3 etc... Westside is really only 3 things:

1. Dynamic Effort Method
2. Maximum Effort Method
3. Repetitive Effort Method

That's all it is. It uses the 3 ways of building strength. It's no more complicated than that.

As for the comment about single v. double ply gear - it all the same. Single ply gear is so jacked up nowadays. The only difference is the single ply stuff stretches out faster.

Fuzzy
02-23-2008, 12:51 AM
Fuzzy, what is your 1RM max squat Olympic style?

What are your loads for working sets and how many of such sets do you perform and how often?

Chris

462 atg Olympic squat.

Loads for working set are anywhere from 375 to 440, usually from 3-5 reps. I squat with these kinda of loads daily.

Sensei
02-23-2008, 07:49 AM
You are not getting my point... how many times do i have to point to olympic lifters to make it clear what I am trying to convey, we lift at insane peeds as well as alot of heavy work, and we do it often. And seeing how we can adapt to such loading then why is so hard to beleive that higher frequncy will work to.

The human body can adapt, i know it goes against all the mainstram beliefs but you would not bleive how much the human body can handle unassisted.I don't think anyone is not getting your point Fuzzy, but you seem to be missing ours.

For OLers, squatting is GPP for your skill/sport. For PLers, squatting IS the skill/sport. If Hossein Rezzazadeh decided to say to hell with OL and wanted to push his squat numbers as high as he could, I guarantee he would be NOT be squatting daily.

chris mason
02-23-2008, 09:06 AM
462 atg Olympic squat.

Loads for working set are anywhere from 375 to 440, usually from 3-5 reps. I squat with these kinda of loads daily.

Ok, right. Now, you are saying that you squat 7 days per week?

How many sets at those loads?

How many days per week will you use over 400 lbs?

WillKuenzel
02-23-2008, 09:07 AM
Fuzzy, how often do you full clean and snatch above 80-85%

Travis Bell
02-23-2008, 09:18 AM
You are not getting my point... how many times do i have to point to olympic lifters to make it clear what I am trying to convey, we lift at insane peeds as well as alot of heavy work, and we do it often. And seeing how we can adapt to such loading then why is so hard to beleive that higher frequncy will work to.

The human body can adapt, i know it goes against all the mainstram beliefs but you would not bleive how much the human body can handle unassisted.

You can point to Olympic lifting as much as you want, but that won't make it any better of a comparison. You're right, Oly lifting does use alot of speed but it uses a ton more technique than strength. Powerlifting uses more strength than technique. That doesn't mean that powerlifters are stronger than Oly lifters, but they are two different types of strength. Its like comparing Oly lifting to strongman, its not the same. 90% of a powerlifters max means that the powerlifter is using 90% of his strength period. Now 90% of a Oly lifters max doesn't mean that he's using 90% of his strength, it means that at much more weight his technique falls apart and he can't handle the weight. Not for lack of strength necessairly though

dxiw
02-23-2008, 10:01 AM
I don't think anyone is not getting your point Fuzzy, but you seem to be missing ours.

For OLers, squatting is GPP for your skill/sport. For PLers, squatting IS the skill/sport. If Hossein Rezzazadeh decided to say to hell with OL and wanted to push his squat numbers as high as he could, I guarantee he would be NOT be squatting daily.

While I do agree with your theory, I gotta say his squat is damn impressive:

305 kg / 672lb for a couple reps - not ME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHMkz0jf6dU&NR=1

Sensei
02-23-2008, 10:08 AM
While I do agree with your theory, I gotta say his squat is damn impressive:
I never said his squat was not impressive.

dxiw
02-23-2008, 10:17 AM
haha no worries, I wasn't trying to attack you, I just adding evidence that oly lifters are also strong as **** despite doing completely different training =D

RhodeHouse
02-23-2008, 10:20 AM
672 for reps? That's not all that impressive. Sorry.

joey54
02-23-2008, 10:22 AM
I knew this was going to get good. Can't wait for Fuzzy's answers to Chris Mason's questions.

Sensei
02-23-2008, 10:22 AM
haha no worries, I wasn't trying to attack you, I just adding evidence that oly lifters are also strong as **** despite doing completely different training =DNo one is arguing that OLers aren't strong. It's off point completely.

chris mason
02-23-2008, 11:37 AM
672 for reps? That's not all that impressive. Sorry.

Rhode, WTF are you talking about? Let's see YOU do it raw, ATF. Oh, and do it with about 5-7 reps left in the tank like he does. I have seen him front squatting that much weight.

Sometimes you just make goofy comments...

RhodeHouse
02-23-2008, 05:10 PM
Rhode, WTF are you talking about? Let's see YOU do it raw, ATF. Oh, and do it with about 5-7 reps left in the tank like he does. I have seen him front squatting that much weight.

Sometimes you just make goofy comments...

Oh, raw, ATF (Alcohol Tobacco Firearms? What do they have to do with squatting? Is the government putting restrictions on that, now?) in that case, it's still not that impressive. Sorry, my ideas of strength don't correlate with what you think is strong. Nothing goofy about that comment. It just doesn't impress me one little bit at all.

So, Chris, you were there when he did it? The reason I ask is because you say he had 5-7 reps left in the tank. How do you know this? Did you ask him? That's the only way you could make that comment and not sound goofy. Otherwise, it's all speculation.

deeder
02-23-2008, 05:31 PM
Oh, raw, ATF (Alcohol Tobacco Firearms? What do they have to do with squatting? Is the government putting restrictions on that, now?) in that case, it's still not that impressive. Sorry, my ideas of strength don't correlate with what you think is strong. Nothing goofy about that comment. It just doesn't impress me one little bit at all.

So, Chris, you were there when he did it? The reason I ask is because you say he had 5-7 reps left in the tank. How do you know this? Did you ask him? That's the only way you could make that comment and not sound goofy. Otherwise, it's all speculation.

Ok, just do it once, raw and deep as ****. :thumbup:

Fuzzy
02-23-2008, 05:35 PM
Ok, right. Now, you are saying that you squat 7 days per week?

How many sets at those loads?

How many days per week will you use over 400 lbs?

Lets see.. this weeks squatting.

Monday: Back squat 407 for 3x3
Tuesday: front squat 352 for 2 reps.
Wedensday: back squat 440 for 4x2
Thursday: Front squats 330 for 3x2
Friday: backs, a few singles with 440


Fuzzy, how often do you full clean and snatch above 80-85%

Every session? I usually use 90%.


672 for reps? That's not all that impressive. Sorry.

You know Rhodes, I have said multiple times I hate being insolent, especially to men much bigger and strong and older then me who have done the rounds and deserve my utmost respect.

But man, you are seriously in denial about strength sports and are almost acting like a little kid with his hands over ears saying lalalalala to block out and deny things you dont want to admit to.

I read another comment by you saying that Olympic lifting is all technique and no strength. Really, can you honestly say that? i just want you to sit back and think on this. it takes NO sterngth, all technique to put 500+ pounds from the floor to your shoulder and then overhead.

Once again, I hate being a little **** to you but your commens astound me

Killa Kurt
02-23-2008, 05:39 PM
Rhode, WTF are you talking about? Let's see YOU do it raw, ATF. Oh, and do it with about 5-7 reps left in the tank like he does. I have seen him front squatting that much weight.

Sometimes you just make goofy comments...

:withstupi:

He looks like he has quite a few reps in the tank....I'm sure you have an eye for things like this.

Travis Bell
02-23-2008, 05:50 PM
so you only do about 10 sets a week?

Fuzzy
02-23-2008, 05:56 PM
so you only do about 10 sets a week?

That was this weeks.

Usually I do 5 sets of 3-5 reps with abou 400-420. or 300-350 for fronts.

RhodeHouse
02-23-2008, 06:14 PM
Lets see.. this weeks squatting.

Monday: Back squat 407 for 3x3
Tuesday: front squat 352 for 2 reps.
Wedensday: back squat 440 for 4x2
Thursday: Front squats 330 for 3x2
Friday: backs, a few singles with 440



Every session? I usually use 90%.



You know Rhodes, I have said multiple times I hate being insolent, especially to men much bigger and strong and older then me who have done the rounds and deserve my utmost respect.

But man, you are seriously in denial about strength sports and are almost acting like a little kid with his hands over ears saying lalalalala to block out and deny things you dont want to admit to.

I read another comment by you saying that Olympic lifting is all technique and no strength. Really, can you honestly say that? i just want you to sit back and think on this. it takes NO sterngth, all technique to put 500+ pounds from the floor to your shoulder and then overhead.

Once again, I hate being a little **** to you but your commens astound me

Excuse you. I'm just not impressed with 670 for reps. I'm just not impressed. Saying I'm a child or something like that won't change it. I don't think it's that impressive. Sorry.

As for OL, obviously, it takes some strength. To read my comment and take it for EXACTLY that, you're just stupid. That's nitpicking every little thing I have to say. But, OL is a lot more technique than strength. When you're working with 500lbs overhead, OBVIUOSLY that's impressive and takes some strength. If you want to split hairs, we can do that. Much like strongman, if I can clean 300lbs with NO TECHNIQUE whatsoever, it can't be that tough. Now, to move up in the sport, obviously it takes some strength and technique work.

As far as being in denial about strength sports - what exactly do you mean? What I see in "strength" sports are a lot of weak people, trying to play themselves off as being strong. I have a very different view on what I consider strong. Am I strong? Yeah, in some movements I'm really strong. Not so much in others. But, I'm not that impressed with the fact that I stood up with 1000lbs when I was out of position and on my toes. But, I did it. I pulled 755 last weekend - it wasn't 800. I'm proud of my progress and what I can do, but never satisfied. So, when I don't think something is impressive, I'll say it. Can I do it - maybe?

I train with 2 800lb benchers and Vincent has also benched 600 raw. I've watched him put 405 overhead with NO LEG DRIVE AT ALL! Some of the worst form I've ever seen. So, is 500lbs overhead that impressive to me? Yeah, but not so much that I'll suck a d#$k over it. It's all perception. I see strength in a different way than most, especially some on this board.

If you take my comments the wrong way, I'm sorry. I think any quest for strength is great. As long as you make progress towards your golas, that's great. But, don't expect me to think something is impressive when it's not.

Back to the topic, you can't PL squatting everyday. There are 2 other skilled lifts that need attention. If you squat everyday, how are you going to bench and deadlift? Not to mention the stress put on the elbows and shoulders with a low bar squat. And, when will you find time to train all of the assistance movements? Like it has been said before - OL and PL are 2 different animals.

RhodeHouse
02-23-2008, 06:16 PM
Ok, just do it once, raw and deep as ****. :thumbup:

EASY! Been there - done that already. Next?

Travis Bell
02-23-2008, 06:25 PM
That was this weeks.

Usually I do 5 sets of 3-5 reps with abou 400-420. or 300-350 for fronts.

Hate to break it to you but a Pler on WS template will do close to twice that many sets of squatting just twice a week

Sensei
02-23-2008, 07:43 PM
Every session? I usually use 90%.
You realize this will certainly change as you progress, right?

chris mason
02-23-2008, 07:57 PM
Oh, raw, ATF (Alcohol Tobacco Firearms? What do they have to do with squatting? Is the government putting restrictions on that, now?) in that case, it's still not that impressive. Sorry, my ideas of strength don't correlate with what you think is strong. Nothing goofy about that comment. It just doesn't impress me one little bit at all.

So, Chris, you were there when he did it? The reason I ask is because you say he had 5-7 reps left in the tank. How do you know this? Did you ask him? That's the only way you could make that comment and not sound goofy. Otherwise, it's all speculation.

Did you watch the video?

Have you seen the video of him front squatting over 600 lbs for an easy double?

I repeat, let's see you come even close to the feat on video. If not, then you sure as heck should grant that man his due. How would you feel if I said your lifts are unimpressive (I do NOT feel that way)?

That is a big raw lift any way you want to slice it. To call it anything else is folly.

If you want to be a stubborn guy and not admit it that is just ****ing stupid.

As you are a stubborn guy, at least online, I will not try to convince you further.

chris mason
02-23-2008, 08:01 PM
Lets see.. this weeks squatting.

Monday: Back squat 407 for 3x3
Tuesday: front squat 352 for 2 reps.
Wedensday: back squat 440 for 4x2
Thursday: Front squats 330 for 3x2
Friday: backs, a few singles with 440



Every session? I usually use 90%.



You know Rhodes, I have said multiple times I hate being insolent, especially to men much bigger and strong and older then me who have done the rounds and deserve my utmost respect.

But man, you are seriously in denial about strength sports and are almost acting like a little kid with his hands over ears saying lalalalala to block out and deny things you dont want to admit to.

I read another comment by you saying that Olympic lifting is all technique and no strength. Really, can you honestly say that? i just want you to sit back and think on this. it takes NO sterngth, all technique to put 500+ pounds from the floor to your shoulder and then overhead.

Once again, I hate being a little **** to you but your commens astound me


Ok, first, if you are doing 4 sets of 2 reps with 440 lbs then your 1RM is considerably higher than you claimed.

Next, performing heavy back squats 3 days per week with low reps is good, but not exactly an amazing adaptation.

Finally, it begs the question of whether or not less volume would get you stronger quicker.

Anyway, you are a very strong young man, but I think your ideas are not exactly "correct" when it comes to comparison of training styles and what works optimally for various sports.

Killa Kurt
02-23-2008, 08:05 PM
What does a man have to do, to be considered strong, and get some props anymore?

deeder
02-23-2008, 08:10 PM
What does a man have to do, to be considered strong, and get some props anymore?

Squeeze into 3-5 layers of polyester, 2.5m knee wraps, a belt, wrist wraps and then take at least 1000lbs 3+ inches above parallel without having to walk it out of a rack.

Fuzzy
02-23-2008, 08:20 PM
Ok, first, if you are doing 4 sets of 2 reps with 440 lbs then your 1RM is considerably higher than you claimed.

Next, performing heavy back squats 3 days per week with low reps is good, but not exactly an amazing adaptation.

Finally, it begs the question of whether or not less volume would get you stronger quicker.

Anyway, you are a very strong young man, but I think your ideas are not exactly "correct" when it comes to comparison of training styles and what works optimally for various sports.

I singled 462, I never really get to go true max.

I don't kow if Im correct, I probably way waaaay off the mark, i just had an idea and blurted it out and now imsitting back and letting people hash it out for me.


Squeeze into 3-5 layers of polyester, 2.5m knee wraps, a belt, wrist wraps and then take at least 1000lbs 3+ inches above parallel without having to walk it out of a rack.

Pretty much... I mean I have seen footage of Bulgarian supers and Reza squatting 950ish but seeing as it isnt 1000 then they cant be strong.

Killa Kurt
02-23-2008, 08:22 PM
Squeeze into 3-5 layers of polyester, 2.5m knee wraps, a belt, wrist wraps and then take at least 1000lbs 3+ inches above parallel without having to walk it out of a rack.

That's what it seems like, I was just wondering if I was the only person that realizes this. Thanks for clearing things up for me like usual deeder.

deeder
02-23-2008, 08:36 PM
I singled 462, I never really get to go true max.

I don't kow if Im correct, I probably way waaaay off the mark, i just had an idea and blurted it out and now imsitting back and letting people hash it out for me.



Pretty much... I mean I have seen footage of Bulgarian supers and Reza squatting 950ish but seeing as it isnt 1000 then they cant be strong.

This thread has turned in to another "who's stronger" thread. Here's a damn impressive feat of strength from my sport:

tbiWIpmZq3Y

He had to walk it out though... So he must be a pussy..


That's what it seems like, I was just wondering if I was the only person that realizes this. Thanks for clearing things up for me like usual deeder.

Yup.. And it's because of that view that powerlifting has very little chance of getting in to the olympics.

RhodeHouse
02-23-2008, 08:45 PM
Did you watch the video?

Have you seen the video of him front squatting over 600 lbs for an easy double?

I repeat, let's see you come even close to the feat on video. If not, then you sure as heck should grant that man his due. How would you feel if I said your lifts are unimpressive (I do NOT feel that way)?

That is a big raw lift any way you want to slice it. To call it anything else is folly.

If you want to be a stubborn guy and not admit it that is just ****ing stupid.

As you are a stubborn guy, at least online, I will not try to convince you further.

You can call my lifts whatever you want. It makes no difference in my life. I never said it wasn't a good lift. If I did, I mis-typed. All I ever said is that I wasn't impressed.

RhodeHouse
02-23-2008, 09:04 PM
You guys finally figured it out. If you only knew how stupid you sounded with the 3-5 layers blah, blah, blah. But, it makes for good reading for me.

As for the Olympics, who gives a $hit? I lift for myself. If you're out there lifting for trophies or the Olympics as a PLer, you're in the wrong game.

You raw dogs like to call out geared lifters. Raw lifting isn't as hard as using the gear. You have to be smarter, but it's definately easier. I do a ton of raw training. Since the gear is getting ridiculous, there are 2 options.

1. complain about it, like a few of you like to do
2. accept that it's here to stay and LEARN to use it.

Training in gear is not as easy as putting on a suit and squatting. You're asking your body to handle more weight than it is capable of handling (supra-maximal loads). The strain on the CNS is ridiculous. Not to mention the joints that aren't protected by the gear. And, the skill (like throwing a football correctly or hitting a golf ball) practice it takes to learn where to put your body while using the gear. All you do when lifting raw is lift.

I put a squat suit and a bottle of test on the floor under the monolift 1 day and loaded the bar to 500lbs. Oddly enough, the suit was unable to lift the weight. In fact, it wasn't even able to unrack the weight. Which really freaked me out, because I thought the suit did all the lifting for me. Imagine my ride home from the gym that day? Talk about worlds colliding. I had spent so much time thinking the suit was doing all of the work for me, and to find out I was wrong! After a long night of Jack and Cokes and a few percocets, I came to the conclusion thatGod himself, was lifting the weights for me. It wasn't the suit and it wasn't me. It was divine intervention. Praise Jesus!

Sensei
02-23-2008, 09:04 PM
Squeeze into 3-5 layers of polyester, 2.5m knee wraps, a belt, wrist wraps and then take at least 1000lbs 3+ inches above parallel without having to walk it out of a rack.Not that I don't share some of your views, but when did you become an IPF snob? Seriously...

Travis Bell
02-23-2008, 09:25 PM
not to get off topic or anything but I love that vid of Kirk Karwoski. That guy was an absolute freak. Every time I watch that I want to head into the gym.

ok, carry on

deeder
02-23-2008, 09:30 PM
As for the Olympics, who gives a $hit? I lift for myself. If you're out there lifting for trophies or the Olympics as a PLer, you're in the wrong game.


You may not care about representing your country at the oldest and most honored international competition on this planet but that is the ultimate goal for many (most?) athletes.

Would you tell a swimmer, skier, skater (just some of the individual sports off the top of my head) that they are in the wrong game because they strive for medals at the most elite level of competition available to them?


Not that I don't share some of your views, but when did you become an IPF snob? Seriously...

I don't even want to answer this... There'd just be too many angry responses.

Fuzzy
02-23-2008, 09:33 PM
You guys finally figured it out. If you only knew how stupid you sounded with the 3-5 layers blah, blah, blah. But, it makes for good reading for me.

As for the Olympics, who gives a $hit? I lift for myself. If you're out there lifting for trophies or the Olympics as a PLer, you're in the wrong game.

You raw dogs like to call out geared lifters. Raw lifting isn't as hard as using the gear. You have to be smarter, but it's definately easier. I do a ton of raw training. Since the gear is getting ridiculous, there are 2 options.

1. complain about it, like a few of you like to do
2. accept that it's here to stay and LEARN to use it.

Training in gear is not as easy as putting on a suit and squatting. You're asking your body to handle more weight than it is capable of handling (supra-maximal loads). The strain on the CNS is ridiculous. Not to mention the joints that aren't protected by the gear. And, the skill (like throwing a football correctly or hitting a golf ball) practice it takes to learn where to put your body while using the gear. All you do when lifting raw is lift.

I put a squat suit and a bottle of test on the floor under the monolift 1 day and loaded the bar to 500lbs. Oddly enough, the suit was unable to lift the weight. In fact, it wasn't even able to unrack the weight. Which really freaked me out, because I thought the suit did all the lifting for me. Imagine my ride home from the gym that day? Talk about worlds colliding. I had spent so much time thinking the suit was doing all of the work for me, and to find out I was wrong! After a long night of Jack and Cokes and a few percocets, I came to the conclusion thatGod himself, was lifting the weights for me. It wasn't the suit and it wasn't me. It was divine intervention. Praise Jesus!


I SAID that ply lifting is harder, my point was for someone who doesnt put themselves under this kind of load would it not be better totake a leaf from an Oly lifter's book and use more frequncy.

That was the whole poit ofthe damn thread instead me and others got sucked into the 'who is stronger'

Back to the topic please.

The question

Would a raw powerlifter benefit more from an olympic style of frequency as the body can adapt ad condition to high loads as opposed to the westside method?

vdizenzo
02-23-2008, 09:41 PM
Back to the topic please.

The question

Would a raw powerlifter benefit more from an olympic style of frequency as the body can adapt ad condition to high loads as opposed to the westside method?

I think either would work very well as long as you stay committed. There is science behind both. Just SFW!

Sensei
02-23-2008, 09:47 PM
Deeder,
If you think that equipment and monolifts are what's keeping/has kept PL out of the olympics, you have a lot of studying to do.

This thread has become yet another worthless turd of misplaced angst.

In one last attempt to stay on topic I'll repeat, OL and PL, at least at elite levels are apples and oranges. OLers squat, but squat training is GPP for the OLs. OLs are much more technical lifts - OLers do not train the OLs like PLers train the SQ/BP/DL. PLers do not train SQs in the same manner that OLers do because they are trying to improve their squat 1rm exclusively. For OLers, squats are a means to an end, for PLers squats are a means and the end.

Fuzzy
02-23-2008, 10:17 PM
I think either would work very well as long as you stay committed. There is science behind both. Just SFW!

Best damn post so far! Lol.


Deeder,
If you think that equipment and monolifts are what's keeping/has kept PL out of the olympics, you have a lot of studying to do.

This thread has become yet another worthless turd of misplaced angst.

In one last attempt to stay on topic I'll repeat, OL and PL, at least at elite levels are apples and oranges. OLers squat, but squat training is GPP for the OLs. OLs are much more technical lifts - OLers do not train the OLs like PLers train the SQ/BP/DL. PLers do not train SQs in the same manner that OLers do because they are trying to improve their squat 1rm exclusively. For OLers, squats are a means to an end, for PLers squats are a means and the end.

Unfortuantely... is has, wich is a shame.

I guess my premise is wrong when you put it that way, squats as a means to an end vs squats being the end.

Topic was fun while it lasted!

BFGUITAR
02-23-2008, 10:25 PM
Fuzzy I see your point. But I do agree that PLers are working with some ridiculous weight that can be very taxing.

Now, has anyone ever tried what fuzzy is saying? Has a PLer ever adapted an Oly lifter's type of routine (with substituted lifts and accommodations of course).

Chubrock
02-23-2008, 10:30 PM
You may not care about representing your country at the oldest and most honored international competition on this planet but that is the ultimate goal for many (most?) athletes.

.


Not hardly. If you took a poll on here, I doubt you'd find even a fourth of the board had a goal of representing their country.

Chubrock
02-23-2008, 10:37 PM
Now, has anyone ever tried what fuzzy is saying? Has a PLer ever adapted an Oly lifter's type of routine (with substituted lifts and accommodations of course).



Rhodes referenced this earlier. There are too many competitive movements to try and train with the amount of volume Fuzzy referenced. If you tried to apply that amount of volume to your squat, bench and dead, the lifter would die.

Travis Bell
02-23-2008, 10:45 PM
Fuzzy, although I disagree with your training theory, I will admit, assuming you're old like your side profile there says, you formulated your thoughts pretty well for a 15yr old. You obviously have someone in your background who's done their work teaching you about your lifting. Good luck with your lifting

Chris Rodgers
02-23-2008, 10:47 PM
Deeder,
If you think that equipment and monolifts are what's keeping/has kept PL out of the olympics, you have a lot of studying to do.

This thread has become yet another worthless turd of misplaced angst.

In one last attempt to stay on topic I'll repeat, OL and PL, at least at elite levels are apples and oranges. OLers squat, but squat training is GPP for the OLs. OLs are much more technical lifts - OLers do not train the OLs like PLers train the SQ/BP/DL. PLers do not train SQs in the same manner that OLers do because they are trying to improve their squat 1rm exclusively. For OLers, squats are a means to an end, for PLers squats are a means and the end.


:withstupi: Good post.


Deeder- I'm curious when you became such an IPF ass myself? I've seen it in most of your posts relating to powerlifting recently.

RhodeHouse
02-23-2008, 10:54 PM
You may not care about representing your country at the oldest and most honored international competition on this planet but that is the ultimate goal for many (most?) athletes.

Would you tell a swimmer, skier, skater (just some of the individual sports off the top of my head) that they are in the wrong game because they strive for medals at the most elite level of competition available to them?



I don't even want to answer this... There'd just be too many angry responses.

You don't get it, dude. That's ok.

RhodeHouse
02-23-2008, 10:57 PM
Back to the topic please.

The question

Would a raw powerlifter benefit more from an olympic style of frequency as the body can adapt ad condition to high loads as opposed to the westside method?[/QUOTE]

It's already been answered little boy. No, it would not benefit a PLer to train with more frequency. Everyone has said it would be a really bad idea.

deeder
02-23-2008, 11:07 PM
Not hardly. If you took a poll on here, I doubt you'd find even a fourth of the board had a goal of representing their country.

And I bet that fourth would be those who's main interest lies in a sport represented in the olympics.

chris mason
02-23-2008, 11:30 PM
I singled 462, I never really get to go true max.

I don't kow if Im correct, I probably way waaaay off the mark, i just had an idea and blurted it out and now imsitting back and letting people hash it out for me.



Pretty much... I mean I have seen footage of Bulgarian supers and Reza squatting 950ish but seeing as it isnt 1000 then they cant be strong.


Get me a link to these videos. I have heard of them doing such loads, but never seen it.

chris mason
02-23-2008, 11:31 PM
You can call my lifts whatever you want. It makes no difference in my life. I never said it wasn't a good lift. If I did, I mis-typed. All I ever said is that I wasn't impressed.

Lol, you are a hard man to impress...

chris mason
02-23-2008, 11:32 PM
I think either would work very well as long as you stay committed. There is science behind both. Just SFW!

Smart man!

chris mason
02-23-2008, 11:35 PM
The comment about the gear and 3" above parallel with 1000+ lbs was stupid.

****, I respect anyone who can put 1000 lbs on their back and break their knees without being crushed!

Mike Miller is a great example. He gets **** for having presumably squatted high when he set the record. Whatever! He got whites and squatting a ****load of weight!!! He gets my respect!

**** the internet judges!

Strength athletes need to learn to overcome jealously and respect each others lifts (this is a GENERAL statement, I know some do).

Fuzzy
02-23-2008, 11:51 PM
Rhodes referenced this earlier. There are too many competitive movements to try and train with the amount of volume Fuzzy referenced. If you tried to apply that amount of volume to your squat, bench and dead, the lifter would die.

So maybe a cyclcical (is that even a word) approach.

god I need to take the 3 hour trip to mannum, no shortage of big country boys who would be willing to try something like this.

Cycling between high frequnecy squat, deadlift and bench routines with an all round peaking cycle for meets.

I would love to try this for the **** of it!

Sometimes I wish I could g back to powerlifting nd trainin by own just try all these concept I think of or run across.

Fuzzy
02-23-2008, 11:52 PM
Get me a link to these videos. I have heard of them doing such loads, but never seen it.

All on tapes my coach inherited from his coach, Sevi Marinov who was a 2 time gold medallist in the 52's.

Sevi asked us not to distribte them.

Fuzzy
02-23-2008, 11:58 PM
It's already been answered little boy. No, it would not benefit a PLer to train with more frequency. Everyone has said it would be a really bad idea.

Little boy? Im eating my way to become a 300 pound super!

(I think anyway, might stay heavyweight)

TommyBoy
02-24-2008, 03:13 AM
Squeeze into 3-5 layers of polyester, 2.5m knee wraps, a belt, wrist wraps and then take at least 1000lbs 3+ inches above parallel without having to walk it out of a rack.This is by far the most ignorant thing you've ever said on this board. What the F*** is your problem????

Not that I don't share some of your views, but when did you become an IPF snob? Seriously...

Deeder- I'm curious when you became such an IPF ass myself? I've seen it in most of your posts relating to powerlifting recently.+1

WillKuenzel
02-24-2008, 05:41 AM
To get things back on topic...

Fuzzy, when and how often do you actually do your competitve lifts at or above 85%?

Chubrock
02-24-2008, 07:07 AM
To get things back on topic...

Fuzzy, when and how often do you actually do your competitve lifts at or above 85%?



It's prolly hard to find through all the other stuff, but I think he said he C+Js above 90% nearly every day.

Killa Kurt
02-24-2008, 07:36 AM
It's prolly hard to find through all the other stuff, but I think he said he C+Js above 90% nearly every day.

Yes he did.

Paul Stagg
02-24-2008, 10:24 AM
Remember a couple of things - Fuzzy's made great progress, but probably is still a bit of a novice, and can get away with 90% lifts because they really aren't 90% lifts.

Second, and the most important point: from a programming perspective, 'Westside' style training and typical Weightlifting training (high frequency, or whatever) are very similar. They are just geared to different lifts that require different types of strength.

Kiaran
02-24-2008, 03:18 PM
Isn't raw lifting vs. geared lifting vs. oly lifting like comparing three different sports? Sort of like body builders that strive to not juice and those that go all out. I mean you really cannot compare the two, right? All have to train for their individual needs and goals I thought. Anyway, just my thoughts.

Another though. I'm not really a fan of some of the arrogance floating around in here. I mean, I've been on this board for a few years now and sometimes you see these sorts of threads that just belittles everything most of us on here work towards and stand for. It's like the ******* at the gym that thinks he's Mr Big Dick because he can squat twice what I can. A heavy lift is relative to the individual doing it. Maybe it doesn't impress all, but have some respect, bros. Damn.

Chubrock
02-24-2008, 03:25 PM
Another though. I'm not really a fan of some of the arrogance floating around in here. I mean, I've been on this board for a few years now and sometimes you see these sorts of threads that just belittles everything most of us on here work towards and stand for. It's like the ******* at the gym that thinks he's Mr Big Dick because he can squat twice what I can. A heavy lift is relative to the individual doing it. Maybe it doesn't impress all, but have some respect, bros. Damn.

It's the nature of competition. Everybody here respects people working hard, but if you want to be competitive, don't expect people to bat an eyelash over a 500lbs squat. I know that my all time best squat is absolutely pitiful. I'll make it better. It's just a part of getting to new levels.

BFGUITAR
02-24-2008, 04:59 PM
Rhodes heres a good question... does it impress you that a person can clean and jerk 580 pounds? Forget his squat, lets talk about the whole lift itself.

joey54
02-24-2008, 05:12 PM
This has got to be one of the best threads on here since I came back. Great points made by Paul. It is interesting to see how each presenting side also differs in age. The younger guys with their ideas on higher training frequency and the older guys for lower volume, but more intense workouts. But, some of those Westside guys do do a considerable amount of volume correct? From what I've read Chuck V. did a lot of volume before he left Westside. Probably still is. It is just not all specific in one exercise. Chris, could you elaborate? Fuzzy the comment about you being a little boy was probably not as much about your stature, as your age. You are still just a pup, and have many productive years ahead. Even the parts about you guys aruing the different power lifting federation rules was interesting. Again, great read.

chris mason
02-24-2008, 10:08 PM
Phil Harrington was Chuck's training partner prior to Chuck leaving Westside. I will be seeing Phil this weekend so I will get specifics for you.

Chris

joey54
02-25-2008, 04:42 AM
Thanks Chris. I have seen Phil's lifts on videos on the net and have read some articles about him. The article you wrote which is featured on the Westside site about postworkout nutrition was great btw. He is one strong dude.

chris mason
02-25-2008, 05:27 AM
Thanks Chris. I have seen Phil's lifts on videos on the net and have read some articles about him. The article you wrote which is featured on the Westside site about postworkout nutrition was great btw. He is one strong dude.

You are welcome, and thanks for the article compliment.

Chris

Bob
02-25-2008, 08:09 AM
Wasn't Westside actually developed from OL training?
The research Louie originally did was from the Russian research on the best way(s) to train OL'ing. Basically if you look at the Fuzzy's training, he is doing a lot of Maximum effort, Dynamic Effort and Rep work... and with the supplementals like Front Squatting, Hang Cleans, etc... he is working though his weaknesses.

So, shouldn't the answer of the original question be - PL'ers on the Westside are already using the same program as OL'ers.

vdizenzo
02-25-2008, 08:36 AM
Supertraining makes a great one board!

HP666
02-25-2008, 08:51 AM
Phil Harrington was Chuck's training partner prior to Chuck leaving Westside. I will be seeing Phil this weekend so I will get specifics for you.

Chris

Chuck left Westside???

joey54
02-25-2008, 06:52 PM
Yes a little bit ago. They were discussing it on another board I visit. If you want a link about the discussion I can PM you with it, just let me know.

Travis Bell
02-25-2008, 07:33 PM
Don't read those stupid threads, those guys have no idea why Chuck left but everyone sure has an opinion. The subject of Chuck leaving has been hashed over enough already

joey54
02-26-2008, 04:34 AM
Travis, you are most likely right about that. More just speculation. Was just trying to let him know it had been discussed. I am not sure if it was discussed onthis board at all or not. I have no idea why he left and would not want to comment why.

Fuzzy
02-26-2008, 06:14 AM
Travis, you are most likely right about that. More just speculation. Was just trying to let him know it had been discussed. I am not sure if it was discussed onthis board at all or not. I have no idea why he left and would not want to comment why.

Because just 10 months in a proffesional sporting centre has shown me a nasty political itchyback stabbing side to sport I never knew existed.

Not commenting on that Chuck V issue, I am just saying that.

Best move I ever did was hiring my coach on personal basis and setting up platforms elsewhere away from politics.

RhodeHouse
02-26-2008, 07:49 PM
Rhodes heres a good question... does it impress you that a person can clean and jerk 580 pounds? Forget his squat, lets talk about the whole lift itself.

Absolutely. I believe that's a WR or close to it. I know Alexyev (sp) set the WR in 1971 at 571 or 573 (somethng like that). If memory serves me, Shane Hammond broke that record a few years back.

RhodeHouse
02-26-2008, 07:59 PM
Wasn't Westside actually developed from OL training?
The research Louie originally did was from the Russian research on the best way(s) to train OL'ing. Basically if you look at the Fuzzy's training, he is doing a lot of Maximum effort, Dynamic Effort and Rep work... and with the supplementals like Front Squatting, Hang Cleans, etc... he is working though his weaknesses.

So, shouldn't the answer of the original question be - PL'ers on the Westside are already using the same program as OL'ers.

Louie did use most of the info to formulate his training template from the Russian and Bulgarian Olers. However, the OL info does not correlate pefectly to the powerlifts. But, the basis is in OLing.

The major difference is the specific work that has to be paid to the squat/bench/deadlift. They are very different exercises. They are mored skilled lifts. All Olympic Lifts start from the floor with some form of a clean or the snatch. So, that form can be worked on constantly. You're always starting from the floor. SO, squatting multiple times per week makes sense to me for OLing.

For PLing, each lift is very different. Those specific skills have to be trained if you want to maximize your potential. So, you can only do the lifts 1-2 times per week. The training styles are very different. Westside now, is drastically different from what it was when it started. The only real things that remain constant, from what I can see, is,

Max Effort
Dynamic Effort
Repetitive Effort

And that's all Westside ever was.

chris mason
02-26-2008, 09:09 PM
Absolutely. I believe that's a WR or close to it. I know Alexyev (sp) set the WR in 1971 at 571 or 573 (somethng like that). If memory serves me, Shane Hammond broke that record a few years back.

Nope, Hammond made for an average Olympic lifter. He was the best in the US, but not near the best internationally. I think his best C&J is in the 520 lbs range.

Sensei
02-27-2008, 07:03 PM
Absolutely. I believe that's a WR or close to it. I know Alexyev (sp) set the WR in 1971 at 571 or 573 (somethng like that). If memory serves me, Shane Hammond broke that record a few years back.Alexeev was the first to break the 500lb barrier in the C&J in 70 or 71. Shane DID break that record, but it was not even close to the WR when he did.

joey54
12-02-2009, 07:09 PM
I was thinking about how good this thread was and felt it was worth a bump. A lot of good discussion and something for the newer members to read through if interested. Especially if one doesn't come across this on in the search.

robchris
12-02-2009, 07:47 PM
Joey,

I'm glad you dug that one up... Very good read indeed!

Got a little heated eh?

Fuzzy
12-02-2009, 08:44 PM
This is bizzare! I disagree with alot of what I said in in hindsight. Funny how things change!

It was a damn good thread.

endymion88
12-02-2009, 09:41 PM
this was an awesome read.

joey54
12-03-2009, 05:03 AM
Fuzzy, what thoughts have changed?

C-Sobrino
12-03-2009, 08:03 AM
I just read through this thread. Seriously, people have to stop saying x or y olympic weightlifter squatted ass to grass 900 pounds. The Russians already admitted they lied about their squat numbers! Same with a bunch of other countries who would say so and so squats xyz! Some of the strongest people I know are olympic weightlifters, it is a strength sport and an awesome one, but I find incredible how so many people want to insist that a strength athlete who uses a squat as an accesory / supplemental lift will be better at it than a guy for whom the squat is his bread and butter lift.

Darracq
12-03-2009, 09:08 AM
This is bizzare! I disagree with alot of what I said in in hindsight. Funny how things change!

It was a damn good thread.

Whats your squat now?using the same form as before.

Hazerboy
12-03-2009, 01:27 PM
Great thread. Something more to add though -- there are power lifters that use a high volume/high frequency approach. Like anything else you just have to wave intensity. Here's a piece from an interview with Pavel, "The Russian Speaks-"

"T: Every time I read your stuff you shock me with something. Letís hear one of your ideas about training that would shock T-mag readers.

Pavel: There is a belief that you have no business coming back to the gym until you can better yourself. You must have complete recovery, they say. This is totally ridiculous. This is called distributed loading and itís something thatís fine for beginners, perhaps for intermediate athletes, but not for advanced athletes. The alternative is concentrated loading. You build up the fatigue then you back off and taper.

For example, the Russian national powerlifting team is benching up to eight times a week. Obviously, they do not completely recover, but they build up the volume and the fatigue, then have some unloading workouts, high volume, low volume, high intensity, low intensity, then medium etc. There is such a thing as continuity in your training. As long as you keep stimulating the nervous system with the stimulus, even if your body is not totally recovered, youíre going to make much better gains. Once in a while go easy, once in a while go hardÖ this is where instinctive training comes in.

Some pseudo-scientific authorities make fun of bodybuilders who train instinctively. But sometimes it really does make sense. Today you may be able to do five sets of five in the bench. Tomorrow you can come back and do three triples with the same weight. Youíre not totally recovered, but youíre greasing the same groove in the nervous system. Then maybe you can bench again the third day, really beat it up, and then take two days off. Thatís something to consider."
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/the_evil_russian_speaks_part_2

Like someone said earlier, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I remember reading in either another Pavel interview or in Dinosaur training about a 500 lb raw bencher from the 70s/80s who put a bench and rack in his kitchen, and would knock out reps throughout the day/week. Now thats greasing the groove.

NickAus
12-03-2009, 02:30 PM
Great thread. Something more to add though -- there are power lifters that use a high volume/high frequency approach. Like anything else you just have to wave intensity. Here's a piece from an interview with Pavel, "The Russian Speaks-"

"T: Every time I read your stuff you shock me with something. Letís hear one of your ideas about training that would shock T-mag readers.

Pavel: There is a belief that you have no business coming back to the gym until you can better yourself. You must have complete recovery, they say. This is totally ridiculous. This is called distributed loading and itís something thatís fine for beginners, perhaps for intermediate athletes, but not for advanced athletes. The alternative is concentrated loading. You build up the fatigue then you back off and taper.

For example, the Russian national powerlifting team is benching up to eight times a week. Obviously, they do not completely recover, but they build up the volume and the fatigue, then have some unloading workouts, high volume, low volume, high intensity, low intensity, then medium etc. There is such a thing as continuity in your training. As long as you keep stimulating the nervous system with the stimulus, even if your body is not totally recovered, youíre going to make much better gains. Once in a while go easy, once in a while go hardÖ this is where instinctive training comes in.

Some pseudo-scientific authorities make fun of bodybuilders who train instinctively. But sometimes it really does make sense. Today you may be able to do five sets of five in the bench. Tomorrow you can come back and do three triples with the same weight. Youíre not totally recovered, but youíre greasing the same groove in the nervous system. Then maybe you can bench again the third day, really beat it up, and then take two days off. Thatís something to consider."
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/the_evil_russian_speaks_part_2

Like someone said earlier, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I remember reading in either another Pavel interview or in Dinosaur training about a 500 lb raw bencher from the 70s/80s who put a bench and rack in his kitchen, and would knock out reps throughout the day/week. Now thats greasing the groove.

Interesting!

I did this with chins a while back and it worked really well.

JK1
12-03-2009, 03:43 PM
You guys finally figured it out. If you only knew how stupid you sounded with the 3-5 layers blah, blah, blah. But, it makes for good reading for me.

As for the Olympics, who gives a $hit? I lift for myself. If you're out there lifting for trophies or the Olympics as a PLer, you're in the wrong game.

You raw dogs like to call out geared lifters. Raw lifting isn't as hard as using the gear. You have to be smarter, but it's definately easier. I do a ton of raw training. Since the gear is getting ridiculous, there are 2 options.

1. complain about it, like a few of you like to do
2. accept that it's here to stay and LEARN to use it.

Training in gear is not as easy as putting on a suit and squatting. You're asking your body to handle more weight than it is capable of handling (supra-maximal loads). The strain on the CNS is ridiculous. Not to mention the joints that aren't protected by the gear. And, the skill (like throwing a football correctly or hitting a golf ball) practice it takes to learn where to put your body while using the gear. All you do when lifting raw is lift.

I put a squat suit and a bottle of test on the floor under the monolift 1 day and loaded the bar to 500lbs. Oddly enough, the suit was unable to lift the weight. In fact, it wasn't even able to unrack the weight. Which really freaked me out, because I thought the suit did all the lifting for me. Imagine my ride home from the gym that day? Talk about worlds colliding. I had spent so much time thinking the suit was doing all of the work for me, and to find out I was wrong! After a long night of Jack and Cokes and a few percocets, I came to the conclusion thatGod himself, was lifting the weights for me. It wasn't the suit and it wasn't me. It was divine intervention. Praise Jesus!

I've been sitting back watching this thread. I do have to say that the post above is some seriousy funny ****, especially the last paragraph. What makes it so funny is its true.

Necrias
12-03-2009, 04:26 PM
I have done a lot of different types of training and this is what I found

Westside/Low Frequency

-Consistent Progress
-Allows for more recovery
-Very easy to both overtrain AND undertrain
-Rarely get overuse injuries
-Less flexibility (at least in my case)
-More conducive to hypertrophy
-More conducive to longevity

Sheiko/Smolov/High Frequency

-Form becomes very good
-Better flexibility of hips and shoulders
-Overuse injuries common
-Gains come in spurts
-If programmed wrong, athlete becomes overtrained very easily
-Better suited for novices and oly lifters
-Very Conducive to peaking

C-Sobrino
12-03-2009, 05:36 PM
Travis and others who know...

If you count the 4 basic workouts, plus the extra workouts for weaknesses plus the gpp workouts, dont Westside guys train 14 times a week? I mean I never thought of westside as low frequency...

Necrias
12-03-2009, 06:33 PM
Travis and others who know...

If you count the 4 basic workouts, plus the extra workouts for weaknesses plus the gpp workouts, dont Westside guys train 14 times a week? I mean I never thought of westside as low frequency...

What I meant was that the lifts themselves are performed at a low frequency... WS only squats 1-2 times per week, compared to 3-10 of other systems.

Fuzzy
12-03-2009, 07:21 PM
Fuzzy, what thoughts have changed?

Mostly I realised high frequency has to be waved alot. Sometimes I squat everyday, but with the weights I am moving now the fatigue becomes unbearable after a month or so. I still like the high frequency approach, but a year ago I disregarded my relative weakness and the teenage body's amazing recovery abilities.


Whats your squat now?using the same form as before.

If I was to walk out to my stuff right now I could put up 470-490. I peaked last October with 533, but that was when my wrist was injured and we did some intensive leg strengthening stuff. Now we've backed off to favour the actual lifts, which are still far too low.

chris mason
12-03-2009, 08:14 PM
Pavel sites a not so great example as the Russian benchers are not as good as ours. If the system were superior it would produce generally superior athletes.

Ivan92
12-03-2009, 08:43 PM
When comparing russia to the US, you must compare apples to apples, their system surely has produced more IPF world champions than any other.

Ben F Burgess
12-04-2009, 08:11 AM
I have done a lot of different types of training and this is what I found

Sheiko/Smolov/High Frequency

-Form becomes very good
Yeah hitting all those reps in the powerlifts reinforces form for sure

-Better flexibility of hips and shoulders

-Overuse injuries common
Definately agree, GPP important to prevent

-Gains come in spurts
Dont agree with this, i think you can become consistently stronger with Sheiko

-If programmed wrong, athlete becomes overtrained very easily
Programming is key and way more complicated than with WSB as there is no deloading as such and no going by feel

-Better suited for novices and oly lifters
Most disagree with this. Different cycles and programming are available for different 'classes of lifter' i.e. ability...just most people dont know about them...cycles for freaks like Belayev and Fedosienko are very different to ones for 'normal' lifters

-Very Conducive to peaking

As a total Sheiko nuthugger I agree with some of your points above, also agre with Ivan92 - the russian system of training has undoubtedly produced more IPF champs and records than any other but relatively few multiply guys or famous raw lifters cos the RPF/IPF is the biggest show in town (and only until quite recently IIRC).

C-Sobrino
12-04-2009, 10:06 AM
I dispute the sheiko program producing more champs for the IPF than other methods. Russian champs consistently fail IPF doping tests while American lifters do not. I know using steroids is a personal thing, blah blah blah, but, in the IPF the rules state you can't. Americans consistently pass the tests, Russians consistently do not. Same goes with benching. Other countries consistently are found cheating as to gear requirements, American lifters consistently do no have problems using the designated gear.

Ivan92
12-04-2009, 10:48 AM
You are not attributing Russia's staggering success in the IPF only to PEDs are you? For every champion that fails a test, there are ten more that did not. They swept the worlds last year under strict testing and equipment standards. India did a very good job hosting.

C-Sobrino
12-04-2009, 12:58 PM
Ok, sorry if my comments caused any confusion or misunderstanding. I want to be perfectly clear so nothing is taken out of context.

Yes. When comparing the success of Russian and Eastern European lifters and their systems to the American Lifters, in the context of the IPF, YES their success is very much due to their consistent disregard for the antidoping rules in the IPF.

Facts:
1-Russian IPF Champions have been consistently found to be on the juice when tested.
2-American IPF Champions have been consistently found to not be on the juice when tested.

Conclusion:
Since American lifters tend to become IPF champions without a consistent failing of doping tests, their systems are better, since even if they do cheat and juice, their use is not as constant as Russian or Eastern European usage. DONE.

SELK
12-04-2009, 01:11 PM
I dispute the sheiko program producing more champs for the IPF than other methods. Russian champs consistently fail IPF doping tests while American lifters do not. I know using steroids is a personal thing, blah blah blah, but, in the IPF the rules state you can't. Americans consistently pass the tests, Russians consistently do not. Same goes with benching. Other countries consistently are found cheating as to gear requirements, American lifters consistently do no have problems using the designated gear.

Its because around here, if you want to take drugs and use gangster gear, there are federations which would love to have you. :D

Athos
12-04-2009, 01:38 PM
I don't know that I would classify it as east vs. west, there are some current American IPF champions that use Sheiko principles and have done quite well for themselves, i.e., Siders, Tuchscherer, Hooper.

joey54
12-04-2009, 06:44 PM
I know this topic has sparked side debates from the begining. I think the important thing to take from this is finding what method works best for you at the point you are in your lifting career. Disputes over gear and federations are inevitable, but it comes down to what works best for what you are trying to accomplish.

ACaslow
12-04-2009, 07:13 PM
great thread:indian:

Hazerboy
12-04-2009, 08:41 PM
ummmm, only 1-2 times per week? this is opinion based right and not proven?

If it's proven, then why the hell am I making gains squatting 3-4 times a week at times?

junk thread, way too much know it all babble bs.

I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say. Powerlifting has 3 very different lifts, instead of 2 very very similar lifts (like oly lifting). therefore your training has to be split up a lot more so you can get stronger in the various lifts -- most guy simply don't have a lot of time to hit their lifts more than 1-2X a week. He wasn't saying that you PHYSICALLY CANNOT squat that often or something, only that your time has to be divided between the 3, which is even harder because they are all so different -- there's some crossover between squat/deadlift training, but after awhile the two diverge for most people.

ACaslow
12-04-2009, 09:17 PM
I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say. Powerlifting has 3 very different lifts, instead of 2 very very similar lifts (like oly lifting). therefore your training has to be split up a lot more so you can get stronger in the various lifts -- most guy simply don't have a lot of time to hit their lifts more than 1-2X a week. He wasn't saying that you PHYSICALLY CANNOT squat that often or something, only that your time has to be divided between the 3, which is even harder because they are all so different -- there's some crossover between squat/deadlift training, but after awhile the two diverge for most people.

Either way. I don't like how my post came across. I'd rather not even bother.

Fuzzy
12-04-2009, 09:28 PM
Either way. I don't like how my post came across. I'd rather not even bother.

Thanks for participating anyway. I had alot of fun with this thread a while back.

Amazing what another 60 pounds of strength teaches you.