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NASAKYCHAIRMAN
04-08-2008, 11:48 AM
The bench press has already surpass the deadlift.

Do anybody think that the bench press will surpass the squat?

TRAIN HARD

"BIG WILLIE" J.T. HALL
http://www.atlargenutrition.com/fivepiecepuzzle.php
GOT MAXIMUM MASS STACK?

BFGUITAR
04-08-2008, 11:59 AM
Yeh, by me. :D

Lones Green
04-08-2008, 12:03 PM
hmmm. good question. i think it will be awhile before someone benches 1250. it'd be pretty cool if it did happen, though!

Runty
04-08-2008, 12:31 PM
Not raw, that's for sure.

Xellarz
04-08-2008, 02:19 PM
Nope.

Viking_Power
04-08-2008, 02:31 PM
If someone trians both bench press and squat equally, what is a typical difference in max? For instance, if someone can bench 300, than they can probably squat 350... Not saying those numbers are remotly correct.

bigbadwolfe
04-08-2008, 02:45 PM
I think the bench is about as far as it is gonna go for a bit. I wont be surpised to see Ryan hit 1100 seeing as how he is Ohh So close. But the question here is when do Bones really come into play? No matter how much a shirt can help how much can the body/bones really withstand?

ZenMonkey
04-08-2008, 02:49 PM
mythbusters!!... actually i bet that info is already out there somewhere

Travis Bell
04-08-2008, 03:33 PM
yeah I doubt someone will hit the squat record. Vlad will probably break 1300 or close to it at his next meet.

I could see Kennelly hitting 1150 but he's probably not going to hit the squat record.

be pretty impressive if he did though!

ryuage
04-08-2008, 04:43 PM
wait a minute... im sure a lot of peoples all time bp are higher than their all time squat =p

on a serious note... that would be some massive weight, not that what is being done now isnt.

Invain
04-08-2008, 04:54 PM
Definitely no offense to any of you guys that compete equipped regularly, but the day the all time max bench surpasses the all time equipped squat is the day I lose all respect for powerlifting. I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but in my opinion gear is getting way out of hand.

BFGUITAR
04-08-2008, 08:30 PM
Definitely no offense to any of you guys that compete equipped regularly, but the day the all time max bench surpasses the all time equipped squat is the day I lose all respect for powerlifting. I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but in my opinion gear is getting way out of hand.

As the weight increases there is more danger and thus more/different gear is required.

Xellarz
04-08-2008, 08:37 PM
Yeah, and about the bones, I thought I read somewhere that some of the top guys already feel their bones flexing (bending...) while they bench. Maybe even Wolfe experiences that.

deeder
04-08-2008, 08:54 PM
As the weight increases there is more danger and thus more/different gear is required.

The danger increases because of the gear.

Don't for one second fool yourself into thinking that gear (even single ply IPF stuff) is for protection. It started off as a safety thing... But then someone thought, hey, I bet I could lift a lot more if I did this.......

deeder
04-08-2008, 08:54 PM
Definitely no offense to any of you guys that compete equipped regularly, but the day the all time max bench surpasses the all time equipped squat is the day I lose all respect for powerlifting. I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but in my opinion gear is getting way out of hand.

I agree.

It's already higher than the all time deadlift... That says something doesn't it?

Invain
04-08-2008, 09:20 PM
As the weight increases there is more danger and thus more/different gear is required.

Yea BF, but like Deeder said, why is it so much more dangerous now? Shirts are not used to safely lift more weight anymore. The weight is increasing BECAUSE of the gear. Every year a company comes out with some new material in 20 million ply and bench records go up.

I don't want to stray from the topic but I've wanted to ask for a long time why gear is even permitted at all in meets. I think I've brought it up in the past but I quickly got shot down by guys that frequent the pl forums because they don't want to face the truth.

Sensei
04-08-2008, 09:34 PM
I don't want to stray from the topic but I've wanted to ask for a long time why gear is even permitted at all in meets. I think I've brought it up in the past but I quickly got shot down by guys that frequent the pl forums because they don't want to face the truth.You get shot down precisely because it IS off-topic. If you don't like equipment, compete raw and/or in all-raw federations. If you don't compete at all, why do you have an opinion (and I'm not necessarily talking to you)?

It has absolutely nothing to do with "facing the truth" - PLers who compete with equipment do so because equipment is already an integral part of the game. If you want to be a competitive pole-vaulter, you won't be using a solid wood pole. If you want to be a professional cyclist, you won't be using a Schwinn Stingray 5-speed with the banana seat ( http://www.antiquewhs.com/2005011.jpg ) even though you'd be cooler than cool if you did.

Invain
04-08-2008, 09:55 PM
Sensei, although your comparisons are a little similar, there's still a big difference. Powerlifting is about lifting the most weight possible using just your body/strength. You cannot deny that modern powerlifting isn't simply about being as strong as possible, it's about using the best possible shirt and having good technique to squeeze as much out of the shirt as possible.

Sensei
04-08-2008, 10:13 PM
Sensei, although your comparisons are a little similar, there's still a big difference. Powerlifting is about lifting the most weight possible using just your body/strength.Says you. Do you compete in equipped feds?

You cannot deny that modern powerlifting isn't simply about being as strong as possible, it's about using the best possible shirt and having good technique to squeeze as much out of the shirt as possible.Of course it is. Did I say anything to the contrary? And how is that different than cycling or golf exactly? Competitors in every sport exploit equipment rules as much as possible to achieve the best performances they can - so what? If you don't like it, don't watch, don't compete, don't bitch, don't sidetrack threads.

Invain
04-08-2008, 10:27 PM
Says you. Do you compete in equipped feds?
Of course it is. Did I say anything to the contrary? And how is that different than cycling or golf exactly? Competitors in every sport exploit equipment rules as much as possible to achieve the best performances they can - so what? If you don't like it, don't watch, don't compete, don't bitch, don't sidetrack threads.

Sure equipment plays a part, but give somebody like tiger a cheap ass set of clubs and he'll still play amazingly. What you're missing is, for all the sports you reference to, the equipment has to be used. You can't cycle without a bike, you can't golf without clubs. What I'm curious about, is how gear got started in the first place. You definitely don't need gear to lift, but somebody using a multi-ply shirt is definitely going to have an advantage over somebody going raw, if they were competing in the same meet for example.

Travis Bell
04-08-2008, 10:28 PM
Sensei, although your comparisons are a little similar, there's still a big difference. Powerlifting is about lifting the most weight possible using just your body/strength. You cannot deny that modern powerlifting isn't simply about being as strong as possible, it's about using the best possible shirt and having good technique to squeeze as much out of the shirt as possible.

dood! you are so right! those geared lifters are soooo weak!

Invain
04-08-2008, 10:29 PM
Says you. Do you compete in equipped feds?


You know I don't. Do YOU? I should have re-worded that differently. Powerlifting STARTED as being all about lifting the most weight possible using just your humanly strength.

Invain
04-08-2008, 10:30 PM
dood! you are so right! those geared lifters are soooo weak!

I'm definitely not suprised at comments like this. I never said I don't respect geared lifters, and have never said they aren't strong as ****. I remember reading a long thread on powerliftingwatch a while ago questioning gear and that's pretty much the kind of response half the people threw out there. "So what are you calling people that used shirts weak!!!111??? Right lawl none of us are strong."

Sensei
04-08-2008, 10:38 PM
You know I don't. Do YOU?I've done my share.

Travis Bell
04-08-2008, 10:43 PM
I'm definitely not suprised at comments like this. I never said I don't respect geared lifters, and have never said they aren't strong as ****. I remember reading a long thread on powerliftingwatch a while ago questioning gear and that's pretty much the kind of response half the people threw out there. "So what are you calling people that used shirts weak!!!111??? Right lawl none of us are strong."


so saying that lifting in gear doesn't require brute strength and isn't powerlifting - that is insulting so of course people will take offense.

Fortunatly not all raw lifters take the same attitude you have so I don't want this to seem as if I'm generalizing all raw lifters.

C'mon guys! They are two different types of powerlifting, but they are both powerlifting! Why is that difficult to understand? Both require a great amount of strength. I don't understand the need to pull apart guys that choose to lift in gear

Ben Moore
04-08-2008, 10:54 PM
I'm definitely not suprised at comments like this. I never said I don't respect geared lifters, and have never said they aren't strong as ****. I remember reading a long thread on powerliftingwatch a while ago questioning gear and that's pretty much the kind of response half the people threw out there. "So what are you calling people that used shirts weak!!!111??? Right lawl none of us are strong."

No offense bud, but why does it matter to you? If you don't like the gear, don't compete, and lift raw, then by God go about your business.

If you've gone to the length to hijack the thread with these thoughts tells me you've thought about what you could do in the gear. I can tell you for certain, being a raw lifter up until recently, that it takes just as much effort in it as it does out of it. It is different, but a ton of effort just the same.

I have all the respect in the world for people that get to the gym, do what they can and make progress. It takes a ton of willpower to make that decision and to stick with it. I have somewhat less respect for people that try and belittle people for a choice in the fed they compete in and what gear they use when the belittlers don't compete themselves.

I could be totally off base here. I am new. Invain, do you compete in any strength sport including bodybuilding? Just curious...

Invain
04-08-2008, 11:02 PM
I wasn't trying to belittle anybody, I asked an honest question. You're right, this thread has been taken off topic and I apologize.

And no, I haven't competed yet, but I most certainly plan to for the first time this summer here in Michigan.

Ben Moore
04-08-2008, 11:04 PM
Good luck to you Invain - have you picked a contest yet? Feel free to respond via PM so we don't hijack this thread any further. I just know that when I actually pick a contest and pay the entry it makes me that much more focused for the event.

Chubrock
04-08-2008, 11:35 PM
Sure equipment plays a part, but give somebody like tiger a cheap ass set of clubs and he'll still play amazingly. What you're missing is, for all the sports you reference to, the equipment has to be used. You can't cycle without a bike, you can't golf without clubs.


You're right, but you don't need graphite shafts or an 11lbs, road bike to compete either. People use these things because they enhance their game. It's no different than PLing.

RhodeHouse
04-09-2008, 05:50 PM
Sweet! Another raw/gear debate.

In my experience, the raw guys cry because they're afraid or just plain can't learn to use the gear.

Lift how you will. The geared guys never bash the raw guys. It's always the other way around. Seems like jealousy to me.

Lones Green
04-09-2008, 07:12 PM
i have respect for raw lifters...that being said...

i like gear. it's fun. it adds a different element to lifting, different technique, and plus you can lift more weight.

Invain
04-09-2008, 07:55 PM
Thanks for letting the geared thing drop guys.... If you really want to keep "debating" though I'd love to argue via pm's.

Hazerboy
04-09-2008, 08:26 PM
Powerlifting STARTED as being all about lifting the most weight possible using just your humanly strength.

that *might* be how powerlifting started, but thats certainly not how powerlifting is today, even in the raw feds. Technique always plays a large role, and I'm willing to bet that rarely does the strongest lifter win. So really its your "humanly strength" plus a great deal of technique.

And powerlifting stopped being a pure display of this "humanly strength" whenever technique started playing a large role (when lifters started benching with an arch or squatting with a low bar and wide). Who knows when this was. If you're looking for a pure display of strength, you're in the wrong sport (strongman might be slightly better, but I think even THAT requires a great deal of technique, depending on the event).

When it comes right down to it, I'm willing to bet you would have the same top 10 powerlifters with gear or without. Maybe the order would change around a bit, and the numbers would be lower, but thats all. So why does it matter if the gear goes way out of hand? Its still the same guys (for instance, If I have my info correct, kennely has the raw bench record and is real close to the equipped).

When it comes down to it, I think most of us see your point: the gear in powerlifting is different in than the gear in other sports. To oversimplify things a bit, equipment in other sports falls into two categories: a) the sport couldn't exist without the equipment, (like a bat and ball in baseball), or b) its there to protect the players (pads in football). There is some argument to be made that gear protects the lifters, but I think most would agree that that is untrue. Regardless of the category that equipment falls into, somewhere down the line its used to the players advantage. Powerlifting is unique in that gear doesn't really fall into either category - you can certainly lift without gear and it doesn't really keep you much safer (at least this is what I believe to be the general consensus).

Invain: you seem to believe that this is a bad thing? I don't really see why. MAYBE it would be bad for the sport's image - when I tell most of my friends that everyone who has squatted over a thousand lbs or benched over a thousand uses gear, they seem to be dismissive about it -"why don't they just use a forklift!" sort of talk.

Hell, maybe it would even be good for the sport; I could see a one thousand lb eqiupped bench drawing a much bigger crowd than a 600 unequipped.

So what it really comes down to is whether or not gear is good or bad for the sports image, I don't think any of us, even you Invain, would really know.

Now, as for whether or not the max bench will surpass the max squat, hell, maybe it will. It would certainly be an awesome display of strength. I've never competed in gear ( don't have the money, honestly) so someone can correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't it turn the lift into a sort of accommodating resistance lift? So if I have my understanding correct, wouldn't gear turn a 1200 lb bench into a 500-700 lb lift off the chest and a 1200 lb lockout? Putting everything else I've said aside, I think that would be an insane accomplishment. A 1200 lb lockout is impressive enough, but doing but your max lockout AND your max press from the chest (around 500-700 lbs) in the same lift is just sick.

Anyways, I know that is kind of long and I spent most of the time off topic feeding the troll, but I think I made some decent points.

Travis Bell
04-09-2008, 08:37 PM
haha no thats not what gear is like but I do certainly appreciate your willingness to acknowledge the amount of skill required for using gear.

Invain, you're the one that made this into a gear argument, little odd that you're now calling for it to stop

In the end, this subject has been hashed over, rehashed and then hashed again. Lets make an attempt to move on since this discussion does nothing but raise the irritation level in all of us on the board

thewicked
04-09-2008, 09:17 PM
wanna lift raw..lift raw..


wanna compete with the big boys and go for the bucks..gotta do what they do...

doesn't matter. Lifting is lifting..why fight amongst ourselves when we should be trying to bring it all together and make more people want to become apart of what we do? wanna make powerlifting bigger? Brothers in iron baby... make it happen. I don't like using gear but don't have a problem with it what so ever. It's my choice..

we're all on the platform to do one thing... put on a ****ing show!

thewicked
04-09-2008, 09:18 PM
oh yeah..the fact that there's even talk about the kennelly and his benchpress possibly coming close to breaking the all time squat record can atest to the living legend that man is today..and what legacy he'll leave behind!

That dude is a MONSTER! Just like watching bolton pull a grand...watching kennelly bench over a grand is awe inspiring!

Invain
04-09-2008, 09:20 PM
Anyways, I know that is kind of long and I spent most of the time off topic feeding the troll, but I think I made some decent points.

Wow lol, now I'm a troll. I'm glad you know so much about me.

There's plenty of other people way stronger than me and with many years of experience that feel the same way I do. If anybody has the Feb. 08 edition of Powerlifting USA go to page 46 and read the article there. He author doesn't necessarily dislike gear'd lifting, but the brings up some good points against it.

Also: http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/7533
http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/5860

http://keithpayne.homestead.com/files/hopquestionaugust03.htm

Paul Bossi:


Paul Bossi

Keith I feel with all the new technology in powerlifting as far as suits and shirts go it is a joke. 1st of all the sport is being hurt with all the equipment be cause everyone knows you can't lift the weight the shirt does most of the work. Karin's Extreme power Shirts have claims of as much as 245lbs added to a bench. What's wrong with this picture when a man can only bench press 365 and with a shirt can get 600lb bench? That is a joke because the same shirt only gives another guy 40-50 pounds. and now you have double and triple ply and guys using 2 shirt and elbow wraps. It is all a joke. More guys are bombing out now at meet because they depend on the shirts or suits too much. At Bench America 3 of 5 bombed out in the 181 class and 2-3 bombed out in the SHW class or it may have been a different heavyweight class. Lots of others bombed out, why? Because they all depended on the shirts. When was the last time you saw a RAW guy open with a weight that buried him to the bench? Or when was the last time you saw 10 out of 56 guys bomb out of 1 competition. Well, it happened at Bench America. 1 out of every 5 guys bombed out and that is a joke. At least with a guy going RAW all men are on equal playing field and may the strongest guy win. There is only 1 thing better than that is RAW with drug testing and then you will really find who is the strongest person in that weight class with integrity through hard work and dedication with any man made chemicals. Equipment is a joke and is making the sport look like a circus.

BigCorey75
04-10-2008, 12:08 AM
yeah this is an argument that can go on forever gear v raw, it comes and goes


now honestly i know the gear does assist lifts and the lifters and i dont think the two can be compared in any fashion of the imagination, thats why people choose to do raw vs suited meets. ill prefer to compete in a non suited meet cause it seems more pure, to me

but both sides are right, the gear does help, but the lifter is still doing the work.


**** i can take a bicycle and lay it on its side i dont care if its made of the best **** in the world if no one gets on and rides it worth a crap its not gonna do anything


i can play football without helmet and shoulder pads, but playing with them made the game safer, but someone came out with better and better stuff, allowing people to be more and more safe and deliver bigger and more punishing blows without hurting themselves.

now can i play football without pads? yeah, but if im competing agaisnt people with pads its an unfair contest. same as raw v geared


now does the gear help someone lift more weight? yeah without a ****ing doubt it does. but in the same way a better bike helps people ride better, better clubs hit the ball further and allows me to deliver bigger hits in football and move faster with better equipment.


so its a part of the game, choose to compete or not


stop bashing one another


but also

dont compare ur shirted bench with my raw one either......lol



lets all just get along fellas

NASAKYCHAIRMAN
04-10-2008, 06:59 AM
INVAIN:

Please remove my answer to a 2003 question.

Thanks a lot,

"BIG WILLIE" J.T. HALL

Invain
04-10-2008, 08:21 AM
I removed it like you asked, but I'm sad you think it has nothing to do with the thread. Would you take back what you said in that quote?

NASAKYCHAIRMAN
04-10-2008, 08:43 AM
I removed it like you asked, but I'm sad you think it has nothing to do with the thread. Would you take back what you said in that quote?

Unfortunately, there will probably always be a debate between raw-vs-equipped lifting. Since their are several federations that offer divisions for raw, single, double & triple ply equipment. I think that everybody should be happy & content. Powerlifting companies are huge sponsors of many meets throughout the USA:thumbup:

TRAIN HARD

"BIG WILLIE" J.T. HALL
GOT MAXIMUM MASS STACK?

Ben Moore
04-10-2008, 09:55 AM
FWIW - Invain and I figured out our differences. He's a cool cat and should not be made the scapegoat of this argument.

WillNoble
04-10-2008, 10:36 AM
FWIW - Invain and I figured out our differences. He's a cool cat and should not be made the scapegoat of this argument.

Man Ben, your in such a better mood now that you got your CPAP adjusted

Ben Moore
04-10-2008, 10:41 AM
LOL!

Invain
04-10-2008, 11:16 AM
Unfortunately, there will probably always be a debate between raw-vs-equipped lifting. Since their are several federations that offer divisions for raw, single, double & triple ply equipment. I think that everybody should be happy & content. Powerlifting companies are huge sponsors of many meets throughout the USA:thumbup:

TRAIN HARD

"BIG WILLIE" J.T. HALL
GOT MAXIMUM MASS STACK?

Yeah, I know. There's really no point in arguing, everybody has their own opinion. Sorry for de-reailing your thread J.T.

Tim K
04-10-2008, 02:17 PM
I think the bench is about as far as it is gonna go for a bit. I wont be surpised to see Ryan hit 1100 seeing as how he is Ohh So close. But the question here is when do Bones really come into play? No matter how much a shirt can help how much can the body/bones really withstand?

I know of one lifter that has sustained a stress fracture in the forearm going for a 700+ bench. There are probably others out there too. Considering 1100 lbs is adding another 400 lbs to the lift, I would say we are already starting to play fast and loose with what kind of stress the bones can take. We'll see what the future holds... One thing is for sure, there are some strong SOBs out there moving some massive freakin' weights!


Sweet! Another raw/gear debate.

In my experience, the raw guys cry because they're afraid or just plain can't learn to use the gear.

Lift how you will. The geared guys never bash the raw guys. It's always the other way around. Seems like jealousy to me.

Damned right I'm afraid of a bench shirt, but I would love to give it a go! Looks like fun to me! :evillaugh:

PriestCometh
04-10-2008, 02:45 PM
The bench wont be close to the squat record.
1300 squat is possible in the near future.

i think 1100 is probably the top bench we will ever see in our lifetime.
your body can only take so much of a beating and gear can only give so
much. Health issues come into play once your body gets so big.

The bar always wins in the end.

Travis Bell
04-10-2008, 02:56 PM
I dunno. I mean look at the video of Ryan's last attempt at 1100. It was pretty freakin fast. I think there's an 1120 video of him off a 1brd. i think Ryan has at least 1150 in him before he's done

As far as the bone issue goes, my 2 cents is guys just need to spend more time cycling in and out of the shirts. If you give them time to heal, they'll slowly become more dense and strong (obviously only to an extent haha) but sometimes guys jump in a shirt and are very good at it. Then they don't get out of it for 2 months or take a deload week or two and then their bones take a beatin.

I dunno, thats just what makes sense to me. Benchin with a shirt is alot of fun though

Invain
04-10-2008, 03:01 PM
I know of one lifter that has sustained a stress fracture in the forearm going for a 700+ bench. There are probably others out there too. Considering 1100 lbs is adding another 400 lbs to the lift, I would say we are already starting to play fast and loose with what kind of stress the bones can take. We'll see what the future holds... One thing is for sure, there are some strong SOBs out there moving some massive freakin' weights!



Tommy Harrison broke his forearm a few weeks ago benching 950. Man, I can't even comprehend how that much weight must feel when it's heavy enough to break a freakin bone. Crazy.

PriestCometh
04-10-2008, 05:35 PM
ryan is a beast.

mr.strong
04-12-2008, 05:37 AM
I'm definitely not suprised at comments like this. I never said I don't respect geared lifters, and have never said they aren't strong as ****. I remember reading a long thread on powerliftingwatch a while ago questioning gear and that's pretty much the kind of response half the people threw out there. "So what are you calling people that used shirts weak!!!111??? Right lawl none of us are strong."

so premiership footballs should not wear boots, they should run round a bear feet
:clap:

BigRic
04-12-2008, 07:53 AM
so premiership footballs should not wear boots, they should run round a bear feet
:clap:

I think a better analogy is the PGA tour banning the use of some new clubs because of the increased length that the club hits. That's not saying some of the drivers these guys are using aren't well designed and hit far, but the PGA tour has set the line. I'm not against gear, but when a shirt is so tight that someone trying to bench 800 pounds can't get the bar down to their chest there's obviously something wrong with that.

Tim K
04-12-2008, 07:56 AM
I'm not against gear, but when a shirt is so tight that someone trying to bench 800 pounds can't get the bar down to their chest there's obviously something wrong with that.

Yep, he obviously isn't benching enough weight.

Invain
04-12-2008, 10:58 AM
so premiership footballs should not wear boots, they should run round a bear feet
:clap:

Sorry, lol, but that's about the worst comparison possible.

Sensei
04-12-2008, 11:27 AM
Didn't you just ask people to stop and apologize for being off-topic? I guess if you want the flaming to continue, feel free to continue replying.

Travis Bell
04-12-2008, 12:15 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/04/11/lzr.record.breaking.ap/index.html

Lones Green
04-12-2008, 12:17 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/04/11/lzr.record.breaking.ap/index.html

i saw this the other day, and the first thing that came to my mind was raw vs gear debate.