PDA

View Full Version : Carb cycling, body recomposition and powerlifting



deeder
05-06-2008, 12:40 AM
Let me begin this with a disclaimer.

I know next to nothing about 'advanced dieting'. I know how to stuff my face and I know how to eat less. I've done a little calorie counting and always made sure I was getting sufficient protein but never much more than that.

My goal for the next year and half is to stay at about 215-220lbs and lean out as much as I can while staying strong (preferably while getting a crap-load stronger!). Right now my diet is all over the place. I have no real plan, I just kind of know what it takes for me to gain or lose weight.

I eat fairly healthy for the most part. To give you an idea, here's what I ate today:

Breakfast:
4 egg omelet with cheese
1 glass of milk

Snack:
Banana
1 peanut butter sandwich

Lunch:
went out to a chinese buffet with guys from work. Usually consists of left-overs from supper the night before

Snack:
1 peanut butter sandwich

pre-workout:
2 scoops of whey with 4 tablespoons of honey

supper:
1 bbq'ed chicken leg
about a cup of corn
about a cup of potato salad

bedtime:
1 scoop of whey

I plugged everything except for my lunch today in to fitday and got 2400 calories. I had two big plates at lunch and would guess that I ate about 1000calories if not more.

I seem to have a fairly slow metabolism. It doesn't take much for me to gain weight. I put on 40lbs last summer eating about 5k a day! Maintenance seems to be about 3500-3600 if I had to guess as I was losing weight on approximately 3000-3200 calories leading up to Nationals (before I decided not to make weight). These are just estimates... I don't change what I eat all that much from day to day. Usually I would have had another shake with milk after work but I was still pretty full from lunch so.. You get the idea. Anytime I punched my food in to fitday while I was cutting before nationals it was right around 3k.



My training right now is 4 days a week. Two bench days, two lower body days. I train Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday. If it's important what kind of work I am doing on certain days then I can put up a more detailed outline of my routine.

For now, I'll just say I train like a powerlifter. I am in an introductory stage right now so I am doing more high rep stuff but in about 3 weeks I will have moved to lower rep work consisting of mostly 5 or less for the main exercises.

What I want to come up with is a strict diet that I can follow. I've made great progress up until now (and I still am!) however I've gained a considerable amount of body fat. I'd like to stay in the weight class I am in instead of dropping weight and losing strength (there's also the fact that I'd have to buy all new equipment again which adds up pretty quick!)

I've done a little bit of reading about carb-cycling although I have no idea how to plan something like that out. I've heard about many people having success with PSMF and UD2 but those sound like they are for extreme cuts not for maintaining weight.

I need some direction. Whether that means pointing me to the right articles and books or helping me plan this out is up to you. I'd appreciate any help I can get.

Also, if you've had any success with body-recomposition I'd love to hear how you did it and your suggestions to how I can adapt your success to my situation.

Slim Schaedle
05-06-2008, 01:45 AM
I think you could certainly set up UD2 in conjunction with your powerlifting training.

For just one example, on Mondays before I move on to my depletion stuff, I do some speed bench.

My Saturday is strictly ME deads, bench, and squats, but I think you could set it up where those on separated throughout the week.


I gotta get to bed, but maybe I can offer more later.

bjohnso
05-06-2008, 06:28 AM
I think you could certainly set up UD2 in conjunction with your powerlifting training.

For just one example, on Mondays before I move on to my depletion stuff, I do some speed bench.

My Saturday is strictly ME deads, bench, and squats, but I think you could set it up where those on separated throughout the week.


I gotta get to bed, but maybe I can offer more later.

Was that workout you did on Saturday a typical workout? You just work up to one-rep maxes on the big three?

beaverfootball
05-06-2008, 07:18 AM
in the UD 2 book lyle gives examples how you can use it for bodybuilding/powerlifting or how you can adjust calorie intake so that its not set up for such extreme fat loss.

Mik
05-06-2008, 07:38 AM
Deeder, I don't know enough about PSMF but I have done UD2 in the past with some good success. While on it I gained strength, gained a few pounds a went from roughly 14% to 10ish% bf. I would suggest looking into it specifically how to tailor it for powerlifting I think you'd do well.

Jordanbcool
05-06-2008, 02:22 PM
Deeder, I think you should give either of them a shot depending on exactly how fat you actually are. A UD2 diet is great if you are already very lean (which you aren't) but its also very good as a recomp (atleast that is what I've heard other members use it for). You don't seem like you like the idea of a psmf which is cool but I would suggest that if you feel you've gained more fat then you can lose in a reasonable amount of time. Either diets are good and both are effective with what they are designed to do.

Actually yea i would just do the UD2 diet but don't expect the results to be that dramatic in a short time frame. Over the course of a few months though it'll have you looking alot better. You'll drop a couple of pounds of fat and gained a couple of pounds of muscle if done properly. The main thing to worry about on the UD2 diet is to follow it exactly as described because compared to most diets it is fairly complex and takes some sit-down planning to implement.

deeder
05-06-2008, 05:53 PM
Deeder, I think you should give either of them a shot depending on exactly how fat you actually are. A UD2 diet is great if you are already very lean (which you aren't) but its also very good as a recomp (atleast that is what I've heard other members use it for). You don't seem like you like the idea of a psmf which is cool but I would suggest that if you feel you've gained more fat then you can lose in a reasonable amount of time. Either diets are good and both are effective with what they are designed to do.

Actually yea i would just do the UD2 diet but don't expect the results to be that dramatic in a short time frame. Over the course of a few months though it'll have you looking alot better. You'll drop a couple of pounds of fat and gained a couple of pounds of muscle if done properly. The main thing to worry about on the UD2 diet is to follow it exactly as described because compared to most diets it is fairly complex and takes some sit-down planning to implement.

I'm not really opposed to anything at this point. Again, I don't want to drop bodyweight. I want to stay at the same weight and just recomp... We're not talking a short amount of time here so don't worry. This is actually my goal for about the next 20 months (after that I will be in the Open age category for the IPF).

You say that UD2 should be followed exactly... Well, to my understanding there is a program that accompanies the diet which I would not be willing to follow.

I want to shape my diet around the way that I train not the other way around. My strength goals are still absolute #1 priority.





It sounds like UD2 is the common suggestion here. So I guess the next step is to buy the book.

Is it very hard to make the changes to the diet for maitaining? for powerlifting?

Is it a long book? A very scientific read?

Any extra info at this point would be appreciated. If people here still think that this would be my best bet for my goals then I will purchase the book and go from there.

Slim Schaedle
05-06-2008, 05:55 PM
It sounds like UD2 is the common suggestion here. So I guess the next step is to buy the book.

Is it very hard to make the changes to the diet for maitaining? for powerlifting?

Is it a long book? A very scientific read?

Any extra info at this point would be appreciated. If people here still think that this would be my best bet for my goals then I will purchase the book and go from there.

First half is all sciency.

Second half shows how to set it up.

No more than 100 pages.

List your entire routine, and I will tell you how I would set it up in conjunction with the diet.

deeder
05-06-2008, 06:02 PM
First half is all sciency.

Second half shows how to set it up.

No more than 100 pages.

List your entire routine, and I will tell you how I would set it up in conjunction with the diet.

Haha, well it's a little involved.. I've got a 17 week program written up that takes me all the way to nationals. I put this together based on a previous program that was written for me by one of the guys I train with and modified to address some weaknesses that developed while I was following the original one. I'm on week three.

The file was too big to attach as it was so I had to zip it.. Sorry!

Slim Schaedle
05-06-2008, 06:05 PM
Haha, well it's a little involved.. I've got a 17 week program written up that takes me all the way to nationals. I put this together based on a previous program that was written for me by one of the guys I train with and modified to address some weaknesses that developed while I was following the original one. I'm on week three.

The file was too big to attach as it was so I had to zip it.. Sorry!

What are your daily carb levels at right now?


Just taking a glance at it, you might not have to change much at all, but it really depends how well you operate and train with low carbs.

deeder
05-06-2008, 06:33 PM
What are your daily carb levels at right now?


Just taking a glance at it, you might not have to change much at all, but it really depends how well you operate and train with low carbs.

Well, of the 2400 cals I tracked yesterday, 180g of carbs.

So in total, if I had to guess... 220/day?

joey54
05-06-2008, 06:50 PM
Just a thought Deeder, maybe you aren't gettng enough carbs? no real carbs in your sample breakfast(other than the sugar in the milk), is that typical? Why not include some oats or grits with this, easy way to get in a lot of carbs? There seems to be some better food choices which could be made, but like Slim said you don't have to change much probably at all. I think this might be a case of adjusting what type of foods you eat at what time of the day. To me, that has made a big difference. Not sure how others do on this. I know nothing of this PSMF or UD@, but judging by the fact that you have time and these seem to be quick change things, they may not be your best option.

deeder
05-06-2008, 07:17 PM
Joey, I think that what Slim meant was that I wouldn't have to change the UD2.0 diet much to work around my training.

I don't know about not getting enough carbs... I don't have a problem with energy or anything like that.

Adjusting what types of foods at what times of day is exactly what I am looking for. But I need something more concrete than that! I don't know what to eat when, this is why I started this thread... To come up with something I can follow and stick to no problem.

I do have lots of time... But in my opinion, I am not going to achieve the results that I want (stay the same weight, lose fat, gain muscle) unless my diet is dialed in.

joey54
05-06-2008, 08:27 PM
ooops, sorry for the misread. I gotta head to bed right now, but will post again tomorrow with some things which have helped me to lean out. Not a powerlifter like you, but am not weak and have been able to maintain strength while dieting. talk to you soon.

Slim Schaedle
05-06-2008, 09:14 PM
Well, of the 2400 cals I tracked yesterday, 180g of carbs.

So in total, if I had to guess... 220/day?

Cool....that means going down to 50-100g for 4 days of the week won't create too many problems.

Are you gaining on 2,400?

deeder
05-06-2008, 09:42 PM
Cool....that means going down to 50-100g for 4 days of the week won't create too many problems.

Are you gaining on 2,400?

That wasn't everything I ate that day.. Like I said, I had a huge lunch that day...

Here's what I had today:

Cals: 3592
Fat: 162
Carb: 285
Protein: 247

Huge supper today, 3 homemade burgers... That's what brought the carbs up so high.

I'm staying about the same bodyweight... Heavier some days than others but that's to be expected. I don't track enough or care enough right now to know exactly how much I am eating every day

Slim Schaedle
05-06-2008, 09:47 PM
I don't track enough or care enough right now to know exactly how much I am eating every day


I can work on this a little bit if you want, but in order for it to work right, you'll have to get in the habit of tracking stuff.

deeder
05-06-2008, 09:54 PM
I can work on this a little bit if you want, but in order for it to work right, you'll have to get in the habit of tracking stuff.

Yeah I know.

I ordered the UD2 book tonight. I'll start reading it when it gets here... Not much point doing too much work right now. I'll pm you or post back in here when the time comes to start putting my diet together.

In the mean time... I'll start tracking what I eat more precisely and try to hit a more stable # of calories.

Slim Schaedle
05-06-2008, 09:55 PM
Yeah I know.

I ordered the UD2 book tonight. I'll start reading it when it gets here... Not much point doing too much work right now. I'll pm you or post back in here when the time comes to start putting my diet together.

Sounds like a good plan.

JSully
05-06-2008, 11:24 PM
Aside from the depletion workouts, he should still be able to train as a powerlifter..

one might also suggest TwinPeaks Carb Cycling routine.. I'm tired and don't know the link offhand, try googling it.. With the TwinPeaks Carb Cycling routine, there's no specific workouts to follow, just the high carb, low carb, no carb days.. it works, it's just a pain in the ass to setup.. I pefer UD2, but my goals are more bodybuilding related.

Jordanbcool
05-07-2008, 12:34 AM
Also deeder as a side note. Regardless if you follow the UD2 or not the booklet itself is well worth the information contained inside. Its very scientific but its a very good read for how the body works in general. Its shows many aspects that will be good to remember with whatever diet or bulk you decide to follow in the future.

SpecialK
05-07-2008, 12:00 PM
I have a dumb question to ask: the idea of a recomposition seems to be casually thrown around in this thread, as if it isn't too difficult to accomplish. I thought significant recomps were nearly impossible to pull off for all but new, inexperienced lifters, or experienced lifters who are assisted?

Gaining muscle requires a caloric surplus; losing fat requires a caloric deficit. Aren't these two goals at odds with each other? I know we've had the recomp debate on here before, and I thought the conclusion was that most people would be far better off focusing on one goal at a time.

JSully
05-07-2008, 12:11 PM
I'm recomping very nicely with my diet.. I've dropped 11lbs and 3.7% bodyfat in 6 weeks, while adding .75lbs LBM.. If I up my cals by 200-300/day on my low cal days, then I could probably lose less bodyfat and gain more LBM, but I'm focused on the bodyfat portion right now..

UD2 is great for recomping, the basic principles of UD2 is how I guaged my diet..

Progress
05-07-2008, 01:31 PM
I have a dumb question to ask: the idea of a recomposition seems to be casually thrown around in this thread, as if it isn't too difficult to accomplish. I thought significant recomps were nearly impossible to pull off for all but new, inexperienced lifters, or experienced lifters who are assisted?

Gaining muscle requires a caloric surplus; losing fat requires a caloric deficit. Aren't these two goals at odds with each other? I know we've had the recomp debate on here before, and I thought the conclusion was that most people would be far better off focusing on one goal at a time.

The idea behind recomping with UD2 allows, within one cycle (a week), your body to go through both catabolic and anabolic states. It's easy to tailor one way or the other (lose fat and try not to lose too much muscle OR gain muscle without gaining too much fat). However, it is possible to do both.

joey54
05-07-2008, 07:23 PM
Ok, a lot has been added since last night. deeder, since you are checking the UD2 book out I think you will probably be all right figuring this stuff out on your own. I was just gonna give some basic principles I follow, which admittedly can't be backed by any books, so I think you are in good hands.

deeder
05-07-2008, 10:15 PM
I have a dumb question to ask: the idea of a recomposition seems to be casually thrown around in this thread, as if it isn't too difficult to accomplish. I thought significant recomps were nearly impossible to pull off for all but new, inexperienced lifters, or experienced lifters who are assisted?

Gaining muscle requires a caloric surplus; losing fat requires a caloric deficit. Aren't these two goals at odds with each other? I know we've had the recomp debate on here before, and I thought the conclusion was that most people would be far better off focusing on one goal at a time.

I don't expect amazing results. But because my goal is to stay at this weight then it seems natural that I should try to lean out a little bit at this weight.

littleman19
05-07-2008, 10:54 PM
I think you could certainly set up UD2 in conjunction with your powerlifting training.

For just one example, on Mondays before I move on to my depletion stuff, I do some speed bench.

My Saturday is strictly ME deads, bench, and squats, but I think you could set it up where those on separated throughout the week.


I gotta get to bed, but maybe I can offer more later.

could you give those who don't know much about UD2 a basic overview of the diet for those like deeder who are doing strength training and want to lose fat and gain muscle for powerlifting reasons.

Slim Schaedle
05-07-2008, 11:08 PM
could you give those who don't know much about UD2 a basic overview of the diet for those like deeder who are doing strength training and want to lose fat and gain muscle for powerlifting reasons.

A few days of very low carb, very low calories, and then a few days of very high calories and high carbs.

deeder
05-20-2008, 01:17 AM
I received a book (not the UD2.0 book!?) on Friday. They sent me "The Ketogenic Diet" by accident even though my packing slip clearly said I should have received the UD2.0 book.

No problem though, I emailed Lyle and the company that prints/ships the books and received replies from both by Saturday evening. They are sending out the UD2.0 book at no charge and do not expect me to return the first book I received! Sweet! And, Lyle sent me a PDF version of his book so I didn't have to wait for the book to arrive.

So, I read the book today and have put together a basic diet. Based on Lyle's recommendations for mass gain I think that a 25-30% calorie deficit on the low carb days should be reasonable for maintaining my current body weight. He suggests a 0-10% deficit for mass gain with 100g of carbs. I'll follow the other days as he lays it out in the book.

Now, on to the hard part... How can I work this in with my current training. Lyle really seems to stress the importance of doing the workouts as he suggests and even said to someone on his forum not to bother with the diet if he couldn't commit to the workouts as well.

I'd like to use this diet but I am not going to change my training because of it. How important is it really to do the workouts he suggests? Am I losing that much benefit from not doing depletion workouts? I posted my program earlier in this thread... how will this diet work with that program? My heavy bench days are always on Friday and my heavy squat and deadlift workouts can be either wednesday or saturday. Oh, and I can't remember if I changed it in the spreadsheet... but I'm training Monday/Wednesday/Friday/Saturday.

So I'm thinking... Move the days back 1 day. So, the first low carb would be Sunday. Carb load starts Wednesday night, continues Thursday. Friday works out to be a little less than maintenance for me then saturday would be maintenance. Thoughts on this?

WillKuenzel
05-20-2008, 06:33 PM
I think that unless your willing to change your workouts, at least a little bit, then you might be missing out on some of the important aspects. I've recently started UD2.0. I'm altering it to fit to my powerlifting training but I'm sticking mostly to what Lyle has outlined in the book.

I've started to realize that the best way may be to break it into specialization blocs. Something like 3 weeks of squat concentration, 3 weeks of bench concentration and 3 weeks of deadlift concentration. I'm not sure how much leeway are allowed with the workouts but I think it's something that should stay relatively as it's written.

For the time being, I'm gong to focus on the squat and so Monday's will typically be upper dynamic/repetition with Tuesday's being lower dynamic because Saturday will be more ME lower oriented (and Sunday is not enough time between Saturday and Monday to do DE lower on Monday when I might be more ready), while trying to stick as much to the written plan as possible. Thursday's workout will not change. By then I'm so freaking wasted from dieting that I just want to get the workout over without having to focus on anything but getting it done.

mistergalarza
05-21-2008, 10:30 AM
In the book he talks about full body workouts and depleting the glycogen in order to channel the excessive calorie load at the end of the week. Basically deplete the muscle for a few days, deprive it, then when it comes time to carb load, all the **** loads of carbs and calories you shock your body with are channeled to these areas, since glycogen replenishment is first on the bodies list of to do's with all those cals.

This is why the training goes hand in hand with the diet. It's pretty great but I can understand how you might not want to change it.

JSully
05-21-2008, 12:13 PM
If you go to Lyle's forums, he talks about extending UD2 to 2 weeks. So that's 10 days low cals, 1 day carb load, 3 days moderate cals (dependant upon goals)

IF you really wanted to modify it to hit both your DE and ME days, upper and lower, you could do a full body full depletion workout on day 1. Then day 4 you could do DE upper, day 7 do DE lower, day 10 do another full body workout, day 11 carb load, day 12 ME upper, day 13 ME lower and rest day 14. the following week, do ME lower on day 12 and ME upper on day 13..

just a suggestion..

mistergalarza
05-21-2008, 02:23 PM
If you go to Lyle's forums, he talks about extending UD2 to 2 weeks. So that's 10 days low cals, 1 day carb load, 3 days moderate cals (dependant upon goals)

IF you really wanted to modify it to hit both your DE and ME days, upper and lower, you could do a full body full depletion workout on day 1. Then day 4 you could do DE upper, day 7 do DE lower, day 10 do another full body workout, day 11 carb load, day 12 ME upper, day 13 ME lower and rest day 14. the following week, do ME lower on day 12 and ME upper on day 13..

just a suggestion..

Was holding back asking for a while now but **** it. Wtf does DE and ME stand for? :confused:

Notorious
05-21-2008, 03:59 PM
Was holding back asking for a while now but **** it. Wtf does DE and ME stand for? :confused:

DE=Dynamic Effort (Speed day)
ME=Max Effort (Heavy day)