PDA

View Full Version : On and off (unsuccessful) clean bulk...



yankeekd25
05-22-2008, 04:18 PM
I was on a clean bulk a few months ago, started school, got off track with my schedule. Back then I weighed about 165. I got on the scale yesterday at the gym and I weighed 20 pounds heavier. I look pretty bad in these pics. Could it just be water weight? Should I continue my bulk or should I cut first? Idk how I could gain this much weight. I was actually eating LESS during school than I am now, and I gained 20 lbs? It looks like I have 0% percent muscle on my bones. I started back up again Monday, and since then I've eaten about 2600-3000 cals, with at least 200 g of protein. Is this a case of me just jumping up my cals too fast?

Before
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/yankeekd25/untitled76.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/yankeekd25/untitled65.jpg

Now: (Disaster)

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/yankeekd25/001.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/yankeekd25/002.jpg
Legs: http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/yankeekd25/006.jpg

My legs are semi decent.

BFGUITAR
05-22-2008, 04:22 PM
No worries man, I screwed up huge on my first bulk. You honestly don't look that bad. A cut would help for sure.

yankeekd25
05-22-2008, 04:24 PM
No worries man, I screwed up huge on my first bulk. You honestly don't look that bad. A cut would help for sure.

What did you do the first time? And how did you improve on the second attempt?

BFGUITAR
05-22-2008, 04:26 PM
I ate too much in conjunction with not training properly. I was doing all the right lifts but my technique was not good. I did not have anyone to teach me how to lift which was a problem. I could have progressed A LOT more if I had help.

My friend just squatted 225 at 160 bw, 5'10 after 2 months of training with me. It took me A LOT longer than 2 months to hit 225.

berfles
05-22-2008, 04:31 PM
I agree, you don't look near as bad as you made it sound. The wonderful thing about this is you can decide to change it and be fine. Rarely is anything permanent in this (lifting) world.


My friend just squatted 225 at 160 bw, 5'10 after 2 months of training with me. It took me A LOT longer than 2 months to hit 225.

Really? How long did it take you? I weigh around 164 and could do 225 for one rep probably around the same time your friend could... I've only been squatting since October (haven't in months thanks to work and constant hip pain) but before I stopped at the beginning of March I was on track to be doing a 5x5 with 225. I thought it was normal.

Sorry to derail thread, just wanted to comment about that.

yankeekd25
05-22-2008, 04:32 PM
I ate too much in conjunction with not training properly. I was doing all the right lifts but my technique was not good. I did not have anyone to teach me how to lift which was a problem. I could have progressed A LOT more if I had help.

My friend just squatted 225 at 160 bw, 5'10 after 2 months of training with me. It took me A LOT longer than 2 months to hit 225.

I can tell you this. Probably at about 5'10'' 170 I squated 225. My form was good. I was able to go nearly parallel. Now at 185+ I can barely hit 200. The rest of my big 3 suck too. Bench is barely 185, deadlift about 225. I should be able to do a lot more at my size right? My arms, shoulders and chest are so squishy (for lack of a better word). I lost a lot of fat on my quads and I have more muscle there than anywhere. Someone on here told me your quads are usually the first place you see muscle growth. Even before when I was tracking my cals/ lifting right, I didn't put on much muscle aside from my legs. I was bulking for about 3 months. I stopped for school, and my body went to hell.

BFGUITAR
05-22-2008, 04:39 PM
My friend went ATG on the 225. It took me 5-6 months at least to hit it comfortably. I started weightlifting in a HORRIBLE state. I never moved off my butt until a few years ago. I guess I was/am naturally weak.

yankeekd25
05-22-2008, 04:40 PM
I know it's hard to guess, but what BF% would you approximate me to be at?

Jordanbcool
05-22-2008, 04:56 PM
You don't look bad at all. I was expecting much worse. In fact, it looks like you did pretty well. At least in my opinion.

JSully
05-22-2008, 04:56 PM
I would place you around 15-17%

My first bulk was a disaster. I went from 215lbs to 255lbs in a matter of 3 months. LOL.. WAY too much eating!!

Jordanbcool
05-22-2008, 04:58 PM
I know it's hard to guess, but what BF% would you approximate me to be at?

Maaaybe 20% I'm not sure actually, the pictures are poor.....I don't think thats bad at all for bulking natural.

yankeekd25
05-22-2008, 05:09 PM
Maaaybe 20% I'm not sure actually, the pictures are poor.....I don't think thats bad at all for bulking natural.

I took the pics myself. I am gonna have someone take them so I can post some better ones. I gained a lot of fat on my arms and chest... Also my shoulders suck. I want to see the separation of my delt and my bicep,... but I know that takes some time.

Ideally, I wanna look something like this eventually... http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/2102008/57978orig-main_Full.jpg

bjohnso
05-22-2008, 08:44 PM
Lol wut? You look like you added plenty of muscle. Your shoulders and triceps look great in the second set.

Am I smoking crack?

Patz
05-22-2008, 09:22 PM
yeah..you look like you went from 10-11% to maybe 15%. You're definitely not 20%..you're still enviably lean, for the most part.

It's not that bad. I don't know what to say about the lifts decreasing, except that maybe you just aren't as confident in your new skin (?).


And you really need to clean that mirror. I thought you had taken that pic in the rain! LOL

yankeekd25
05-23-2008, 11:29 AM
Here are some pics taken with better lighting. I got some back shots also.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/yankeekd25/front1.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/yankeekd25/front2.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/yankeekd25/lastone.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/yankeekd25/anotherfront.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/yankeekd25/back.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/yankeekd25/backarms.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/yankeekd25/wheels.jpg

And this is what I used to look like A LONGG time ago
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/yankeekd25/mobmain.jpg

Based on the latest pics, do you guys think I should continue bulking or start the cut?

kevowamo
05-23-2008, 12:36 PM
do what you want to do man

WBBIRL
05-23-2008, 02:26 PM
Looks good, you added some decent size.

If I were you this is exactly what I would do. I'd continue bulking for the next six to eight months. In that time frame you can pack on about 15 to 20 pounds of muscle which will make a big difference in your training.

I'd only go about 500-800 calories higher then what you maintain at during this bulk.

I'm going to try this no matter what when it comes time for me to bulk (about 8 months from now lol) but I have an interesting theory.

Just don't over do it and eat 1000 calories over each day your bulking, your body won't gain 2 pounds of muscle per week unless your on gear. Plan on only gaining half a pound per week, you can gain up to a pound per week but thats if your really getting it done both in and out of the gym.

Over any one week you shouldn't be eating anything over 3000 over your BMR. If you do your going to get fat, or at least fatter then you really want to.

Looking much better though, keep the hard work up.

yankeekd25
05-23-2008, 03:10 PM
Looks good, you added some decent size.

If I were you this is exactly what I would do. I'd continue bulking for the next six to eight months. In that time frame you can pack on about 15 to 20 pounds of muscle which will make a big difference in your training.

I'd only go about 500-800 calories higher then what you maintain at during this bulk.

I'm going to try this no matter what when it comes time for me to bulk (about 8 months from now lol) but I have an interesting theory.

Just don't over do it and eat 1000 calories over each day your bulking, your body won't gain 2 pounds of muscle per week unless your on gear. Plan on only gaining half a pound per week, you can gain up to a pound per week but thats if your really getting it done both in and out of the gym.

Over any one week you shouldn't be eating anything over 3000 over your BMR. If you do your going to get fat, or at least fatter then you really want to.

Looking much better though, keep the hard work up.

Thanks, a lot. I guess I overreacted a bit. I will definitely take your advice. I maintain around 2400-2600, and I was eating around 3000-3600 cals back then, and just recently I'm at 3000, so no problem there. How exactly do you determine your BMR? Well, I'm starving lol. Gonna go eat. Thanks again

Jordanbcool
05-23-2008, 04:11 PM
wow you def. aren't 20%.....the lighting did you a favor. You're probably a bloated 16% tops. Looks like your bulk went very well. You won't look like anything in that picture you want to look like unless you gain the muscle to go with it, and with that muscle you're going to gain some fat. It just takes time, and don't be afraid to eat just because you aren't sub 10%.

Patz
05-23-2008, 04:30 PM
your arms look deceptively big from the front

you need some lats and a back. all your width, size, and weight is in the front. plus, you have traps like mine, which are there but aren't big enough to make up for the fact that your delts are kicking the **** out of them.

your chest is a major strong point, and you have pretty good shoulders.

your legs look pretty good.


much better pictures...that's pretty much what i see, from an honest standpoint. you're still pretty lean.

if i was you, i would eat 3000 calories per day for at least 6 weeks, strict, and as clean as possible. keep the protein high, and lay off the sugar. don't waste a single calorie if you can keep from it. i understand you're just a kid, and you have a social life and all.

as for workouts, i think you'd really benefit from LOTS of pulling. your arms and back need the bulk of your...ummm...BULK. put those calories where you need it most. do seated rows, db rows, pullups, chins, and deadlifts. lift heavy, but get some reps in too. don't go in there and do a bunch of singles and leave. you need to convince your body to add mass where you're expending energy, which should be in those areas.

ok...that's my .02

oh...and don't even bench, unless you just want to keep from getting sore in 6 months when you start doing it again. your chest is overpowering everything. lay off it. you need zero chest growth.

BFGUITAR
05-23-2008, 05:07 PM
You look similar to me a year ago now that I think about it.

yankeekd25
05-23-2008, 05:11 PM
your arms look deceptively big from the front

you need some lats and a back. all your width, size, and weight is in the front. plus, you have traps like mine, which are there but aren't big enough to make up for the fact that your delts are kicking the **** out of them.

your chest is a major strong point, and you have pretty good shoulders.

your legs look pretty good.


much better pictures...that's pretty much what i see, from an honest standpoint. you're still pretty lean.

if i was you, i would eat 3000 calories per day for at least 6 weeks, strict, and as clean as possible. keep the protein high, and lay off the sugar. don't waste a single calorie if you can keep from it. i understand you're just a kid, and you have a social life and all.

as for workouts, i think you'd really benefit from LOTS of pulling. your arms and back need the bulk of your...ummm...BULK. put those calories where you need it most. do seated rows, db rows, pullups, chins, and deadlifts. lift heavy, but get some reps in too. don't go in there and do a bunch of singles and leave. you need to convince your body to add mass where you're expending energy, which should be in those areas.

ok...that's my .02

oh...and don't even bench, unless you just want to keep from getting sore in 6 months when you start doing it again. your chest is overpowering everything. lay off it. you need zero chest growth.

Wow. I'm digging that assessment lol. I don't really don't eat any sugar, except once in a while I'll have some ice cream to keep me sane, but I'm pretty that's made from splenda anyways. I probably eat about 10-15 grams a day, just from stuff like yogurt which has less than 5, and the fruits and stuff. But it's not like I eat cookies and cakes and stuff.

I like structure. Is there a particular workout that is predominantly what you told me to do? I guess currently wbb 1.1 is just working for my chest, and nothing else, although my bench sucks in terms of weight. (I can do db chest press with the 80 db's tho.) My dad has a big chest, so maybe I get it from him. He said when he used to work out, he was pretty built, but not overly massive. He did a lot of plyometrics and stuff, and he loved to swim, so I imagine he was very lean. And I agree about my arms. When I flex looking straight into the mirror, they look big, but I have don't have a lot of muscle mass. I think I have broad shoulders, but again not that much muscle on my actual delts.

Did you check out the last picture I posted? That was a little over a year ago. I use to weight 202 pounds, but it was all Mickey D's and Burger King. I cut down to about 165, and those are the pictures I posted in the first post.

I would love to add 15 lbs of pure muscle. My overall goal is to be 200 lbs, and have a bf% under 10. I appreciate your help.

Indifference
05-23-2008, 05:55 PM
Honestly bro you dont look fat, you look a like your carrying a lot of fluid or bloated though. I wouldnt worry about the BF, its not that high at all. Like elwood said as well, you need some lats man, go row something heavy!

Patz
05-23-2008, 05:59 PM
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=255

This should work.

I'm telling you, though..I would go really easy on chest day. Your chest dominates, and will continue to do so if everything grows semi-evenly. I wouldn't let yourself put on any chest mass until you thicken up in the back. I don't even need to mention the problems that can be caused by having muscle development out of balance, either.

You could replace half of the chest movements with some shoulders or something, and do some 12 rep sets or so for the 2-3 chest movements that you do keep.

Patz
05-23-2008, 06:03 PM
oh and hit those traps HARD. go with some dumbbell CGBP, skull crushers, and barbell CGBP. dips would be great for the traps, but if you do them you can cut out yet another chest movement.

yankeekd25
05-23-2008, 06:12 PM
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=255

This should work.

I'm telling you, though..I would go really easy on chest day. Your chest dominates, and will continue to do so if everything grows semi-evenly. I wouldn't let yourself put on any chest mass until you thicken up in the back. I don't even need to mention the problems that can be caused by having muscle development out of balance, either.

You could replace half of the chest movements with some shoulders or something, and do some 12 rep sets or so for the 2-3 chest movements that you do keep.

Can you help me put a together a workout please? Idk how I should properly mix these exercises to create a plan. There's a lot of reading there, and it's a little hard to decipher all of it. It would be awesome if you could help me with that!

yankeekd25
05-23-2008, 06:14 PM
oh and hit those traps HARD. go with some dumbbell CGBP, skull crushers, and barbell CGBP. dips would be great for the traps, but if you do them you can cut out yet another chest movement.

WBB 1.1 really doesn't have any direct trap exercises. That's why I lack good ones.

Patz
05-23-2008, 06:37 PM
Can you help me put a together a workout please? Idk how I should properly mix these exercises to create a plan. There's a lot of reading there, and it's a little hard to decipher all of it. It would be awesome if you could help me with that!

LOL..yeah it is a little much.

Just do the sample workout at the bottom. Take out any movement you don't have the equipment to do, and put something else in its place. I would just do the barbell bench on day 1, but skip the dumbbell bench. And, instead of a 5x5, make it 3 sets of 12.

As long as 4 days a week works for you...

Jordanbcool
05-23-2008, 07:05 PM
I loved BGB when I did it......worked very well for back development.

BFGUITAR
05-23-2008, 07:16 PM
I loved BGB when I did it......worked very well for back development.

I have never had my back grow so much than on this routine.

yankeekd25
05-23-2008, 07:37 PM
This doesn't have a similar set up as 1.1 right? On 1.1, I'm used to working with say 75-85% of my 1rm. Just pick a weight that I am able to complete each set right?

WBBIRL
05-24-2008, 04:46 PM
Built's Baby Got Back is a great routine, I tweaked it slightly for me because after all I'm a lot different then built in my age, weight and strength level not to mention my goals are different then hers. The routine itself is great, I think I just added a few heavy movements that she didn't use or tinked with the volume a bit. If you look back through my journal(s) you'll find what I did with her routine. It's not my newest one, and I don't think it's my "88 days of pain as performed by WBBIRL".

Track your calories, eat 3000 per day and do nothing different. If you eat 3000 per day and don't lift your not going to get a usable number. Do 95% of everything your going to normally do while bulking/cutting/whatever to find a number your going to use as a BMR.

You could also try West Side for Skinny Bastards.. it's a modified west side for athletes and in general it's not as rigerous as a full blown west side which I'm now doing. The only reason I don't think West Side it self is good for you is because I've been lifting seriously and heavily for several years and a full blown west side beats me down pretty good, it's not something I'd recommend to any lifter save the advanced ones.

BGB is probably what I'd do.

Keep protein above 200g carbs under 50g centered around your workout and get plenty of good omega 3 fats. Use BCAA's and creatine if you can afford. If you can't afford all of them, the BCAAs are most important followed by creatine.

yankeekd25
05-25-2008, 08:26 AM
Built's Baby Got Back is a great routine, I tweaked it slightly for me because after all I'm a lot different then built in my age, weight and strength level not to mention my goals are different then hers. The routine itself is great, I think I just added a few heavy movements that she didn't use or tinked with the volume a bit. If you look back through my journal(s) you'll find what I did with her routine. It's not my newest one, and I don't think it's my "88 days of pain as performed by WBBIRL".

Track your calories, eat 3000 per day and do nothing different. If you eat 3000 per day and don't lift your not going to get a usable number. Do 95% of everything your going to normally do while bulking/cutting/whatever to find a number your going to use as a BMR.

You could also try West Side for Skinny Bastards.. it's a modified west side for athletes and in general it's not as rigerous as a full blown west side which I'm now doing. The only reason I don't think West Side it self is good for you is because I've been lifting seriously and heavily for several years and a full blown west side beats me down pretty good, it's not something I'd recommend to any lifter save the advanced ones.

BGB is probably what I'd do.

Keep protein above 200g carbs under 50g centered around your workout and get plenty of good omega 3 fats. Use BCAA's and creatine if you can afford. If you can't afford all of them, the BCAAs are most important followed by creatine.

Just curious. If I may ask, what changes did you make to it? I want to make sure I am getting the best results.

Also, what's the difference between a romanian deadlift and a straight-leg deadlifts?

WBBIRL
05-25-2008, 09:15 AM
I'd (or you'd) have to search back through my journals to find out, but I tweaked a few things so I was doing heavy work on one or two movements.

As fas as RDL vs SLDL they're so close I wouldn't worry about it, I didn't and I only ever did SLDL.

yankeekd25
05-25-2008, 10:06 AM
Built's Baby Got Back is a great routine, I tweaked it slightly for me because after all I'm a lot different then built in my age, weight and strength level not to mention my goals are different then hers. The routine itself is great, I think I just added a few heavy movements that she didn't use or tinked with the volume a bit. If you look back through my journal(s) you'll find what I did with her routine. It's not my newest one, and I don't think it's my "88 days of pain as performed by WBBIRL".

Track your calories, eat 3000 per day and do nothing different. If you eat 3000 per day and don't lift your not going to get a usable number. Do 95% of everything your going to normally do while bulking/cutting/whatever to find a number your going to use as a BMR.

You could also try West Side for Skinny Bastards.. it's a modified west side for athletes and in general it's not as rigerous as a full blown west side which I'm now doing. The only reason I don't think West Side it self is good for you is because I've been lifting seriously and heavily for several years and a full blown west side beats me down pretty good, it's not something I'd recommend to any lifter save the advanced ones.

BGB is probably what I'd do.

Keep protein above 200g carbs under 50g centered around your workout and get plenty of good omega 3 fats. Use BCAA's and creatine if you can afford. If you can't afford all of them, the BCAAs are most important followed by creatine.

By this you mean, eat only 50 grams of carbs in a day?? Or only 50 centered around your workout, but however many else you need to fill your cals during the rest of the day?

TJ2389
05-25-2008, 03:50 PM
Theres a lot of writing I havent read but I am just curious what your cardio routine looked like during this bulk

yankeekd25
05-25-2008, 04:05 PM
Some HIIT.

WBBIRL
05-25-2008, 06:47 PM
50 only, you don't want too many carbs and you don't want to eat them with any fats. center all carbs eaten around workouts.

yankeekd25
05-25-2008, 07:22 PM
50 only, you don't want too many carbs and you don't want to eat them with any fats. center all carbs eaten around workouts.

I don't think I can do that man. Whole wheat pastas, oats, black beans are staples in my diet. W/o the carbs I don't think I could ever get enough calories.

WBBIRL
05-25-2008, 11:43 PM
Then you need to re evaluate your entire diet.

Carbohydrates and Proteins have exactly the same calories per g (4 calories per gram) and Fat has 9 calories per gram.

Eat a little more fat and a lot more protein. Just how many calories do you need to eat each day?

It shouldn't be that hard at all to keep carbs under 50 g per day.

Chicken's about 100-110g of protein per pound with a tiny bit of fat and no carbs... I could eat 2 or 3 pounds of chicken without trying.

Almost all lean meats have none to very very little amounts of carbs... these will be your bulking friends. If you find a good wholesale butcher like I did you can get loads of fresh quality meat for dirt cheap.

salmon, trout, herring, avocados, olives, walnuts and liquid vegetable oils such as soybean, corn, safflower, canola, olive and sunflower are all good poly/mono unsaturated fats



Simply put, if you want it bad enough you can do it

yankeekd25
05-26-2008, 06:39 AM
Then you need to re evaluate your entire diet.

Carbohydrates and Proteins have exactly the same calories per g (4 calories per gram) and Fat has 9 calories per gram.

Eat a little more fat and a lot more protein. Just how many calories do you need to eat each day?

It shouldn't be that hard at all to keep carbs under 50 g per day.

Chicken's about 100-110g of protein per pound with a tiny bit of fat and no carbs... I could eat 2 or 3 pounds of chicken without trying.

Almost all lean meats have none to very very little amounts of carbs... these will be your bulking friends. If you find a good wholesale butcher like I did you can get loads of fresh quality meat for dirt cheap.

salmon, trout, herring, avocados, olives, walnuts and liquid vegetable oils such as soybean, corn, safflower, canola, olive and sunflower are all good poly/mono unsaturated fats

Simply put, if you want it bad enough you can do it

I'm shooting for 3000 calories. I just don't understand why I should keep carbs that low? Carbs don't make you fat... excess calories do. The carbs give me so much energy in the gym. Isn't it true that the recommended daily value of carbs is somewhere from 200-300 and that's not even for bodybuilders?