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View Full Version : 515 off 2brd with bands



kingkong51
06-09-2008, 07:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbZKGZRjdRc

Travis Bell
06-09-2008, 07:21 PM
Geeze! Impressive bud!

liftin at a different gym today?

kingkong51
06-09-2008, 07:29 PM
Geeze! Impressive bud!

liftin at a different gym today?
Yea outdoor gym oh yea checkout the workout log got something on there you need to read.

Travis Bell
06-09-2008, 07:39 PM
hahaha I saw it already. you are crazy strong bro!! Give it time, I'll catch ya on those

vdizenzo
06-09-2008, 07:49 PM
There's no doubt you are one strong freak. That being said I think you are doing yourself a huge diservice dropping weight to the boards like that. If you stayed tighter on the way down you would have even more strength on the way up. Not to mention that it would translate better to the shirt.

kingkong51
06-09-2008, 07:55 PM
Man that is a wood bench its aweful to get set up on but I know what you mean Vin.

chris mason
06-09-2008, 07:59 PM
I feel stupid offering advice to someone who can bench more than I ever will, but I agree with Vincent. I think you would be better served to control the negative and then blast the weight up.

That said, your lockout strength is TREMENDOUS!

Good work!

vdizenzo
06-09-2008, 08:15 PM
Man that is a wood bench its aweful to get set up on but I know what you mean Vin.

Just want to see you become all you can be big fella.

kingkong51
06-09-2008, 08:23 PM
i know what u mean

bencher8
06-09-2008, 08:24 PM
I am actually going to respectfully disagree with the other on here. I do raw benching just like that...I actually drop from a higher position. It is a part of speed benching.... all my raw work is like that and I feel like it transfers well to shirt. Just an opnion here, but I feel like an explosive bencher who trys to move weight fast using that mmentum to lockout will see good carryover to shirt. Just my opinion though....some guys who use grinding strength and technique to bench dont do it that way.

vdizenzo
06-09-2008, 08:49 PM
I am actually going to respectfully disagree with the other on here. I do raw benching just like that...I actually drop from a higher position. It is a part of speed benching.... all my raw work is like that and I feel like it transfers well to shirt. Just an opnion here, but I feel like an explosive bencher who trys to move weight fast using that mmentum to lockout will see good carryover to shirt. Just my opinion though....some guys who use grinding strength and technique to bench dont do it that way.

My raw and shirted benching is very fast. I am by no means a grinder. I have learned more now than ever with the poly shirts that the boards need to be treated like you treat your equipped bench. I used to just drop weight in, but now getting into the 800+ range it's just too risky in my opinion.

I will be curious to see more opinions on this one.

chris mason
06-09-2008, 09:17 PM
I am actually going to respectfully disagree with the other on here. I do raw benching just like that...I actually drop from a higher position. It is a part of speed benching.... all my raw work is like that and I feel like it transfers well to shirt. Just an opnion here, but I feel like an explosive bencher who trys to move weight fast using that mmentum to lockout will see good carryover to shirt. Just my opinion though....some guys who use grinding strength and technique to bench dont do it that way.

I know what you mean, and I am all for explosive training and fast repetitions, but that was band work in an ME context and I think the form did not take ideal advantage of the setup. In other words, the bands increase the resistance as he is approaching lockout. The boards already make the movement a shoter ROM. Bouncing off the boards and using excess momentum to defeat the initial and subsequent resistance provided by the bands more or less defeats their purpose in that particular circumstance.

My 2 cents.

Travis Bell
06-09-2008, 09:49 PM
I guess I'm somewhere in the middle. What often happens when guys train raw constantly, they get used to holding back on the weight a little, it makes them lower the weight in a shirt alot slower than they need to and it actually hurts their lift (Rob Luyando excluded here haha) On the flip side, if you just drop it on the boards (not saying you did Kong, just discussing here) and you rely on the momentum to carry through the majority of the lift, you wont' strain your tris much and end up losing some of the end result, a stronger lockout. I watched Kong's video about 50 times and really can't say his form fell apart when he brought it down that fast. Really it wasn't fast fast until the last couple inches. Part of that though will be the result of that high band tension. It really pulls the weight down in a hurry! its also easier to judge the effectiveness of a exercise when you see all of the person's work sets. I know for myself, sometimes for the last set or two I might tweak my form just a little.

So I guess I'd mix it up a little. You want to get used to bringing the weight down quickly. I get a ton more out of my shirt when I bring it down faster. But I'd also train a little slower occasionaly to make sure you can control the weights to maintain an effective bar path and placement.

Eric Downey
06-10-2008, 10:01 AM
The speed coming down isnt what i was concerned about. We always pause on the brds. Come down fast but we always pause the brd.

bencher8
06-10-2008, 12:43 PM
I need to clarify a little. I dont drop weight in like that when in a shirt...only when performing raw work.

The way I was told when I was introduced to bands was that when a band is on the bar ..."faster down equals faster up" (quotes cause George H told me that lol) the idea when training with bands is a stronger resistance for lockout, but it is also for training to be faster. Training your muscles to fire as quickly as they possibly can. If you are raw training then drop it fast and fire fast..in a shirt, drop it slower, but still fire fast to "outrun" the band tension..thats the idea, even if it is a ME exercise.

As far as form goes...when training raw, I like Lou's idea. For example n floor press...form isnt terribly important. If you do 650 on flor press and you used leg drive and your butt is off the floor some, then next time you do floor press and you use the same form and get 675...didnt you still get stronger?

Eric..why pause on the boards? I can see maybe pausing every now and then, but pausing only trains the stretch reflex. Stretch reflex can last up to 15 sec, so no need to pause...at least all the time. I give up the stretch reflex to use heavier weight...heavier weight equals greater strength gains. Another point with pausing would negate any speed increases that could be gained by using bands, because you are dropping, then slowing yourself down to prepare to pause, then have to regain speed to lockout....seems like half of the time you are slowing yourself down, instead of trying to speed up.

Rob Luyando
06-10-2008, 01:48 PM
Bencher8 I am going to give you a little **** so be ready. You said you drop the bar fast from a higher posistion. Well no kidding you have mile long arms so of course your going to drop the bar from a higheer position. LOL!

I have tried raw band work taking some advice from Bencher8. I have tried bring the bar down slower and faster. And as much as I hate to agree with Bencher8 when I got used to dropping the bar faster I had stronger results with the bands. But since I am old I only use bands when my speed slows down to a crawl.

Ben Moore
06-10-2008, 01:55 PM
Nice work man!

Some great information in this thread.

Lones Green
06-10-2008, 02:06 PM
you are definetely right ben.

Paul, have you written any articles or do you plan to?

Rob Luyando
06-10-2008, 03:04 PM
you are definetely right ben.

Paul, have you written any articles or do you plan to?

Man I can see his mellon swelling already!

Lones Green
06-10-2008, 03:07 PM
Man I can see his mellon swelling already!

HAHA

vdizenzo
06-10-2008, 03:24 PM
I am not that much a believer/user of bands anyway, especially at my advanced age. I was just speaking about general board work concepts.

chris mason
06-10-2008, 03:55 PM
Bands are typically used for speed work, but if you are nearing a limit press then speed by definition must decrease. The bands then become something different, something more akin to a cam on an exercise machine which provides resistance at all portions of the ROM. That was my point. For the purpose he was using it I feel he would have been better served to control the load a bit better. Does that make sense?

bencher8
06-10-2008, 09:19 PM
rob, my mellon would have to swell considerably larger than it is now to even approach that thing you call a head..lol

No..I have written no articles. I dont have a lot of time for that kind of stuff, but maybe in the future! I am purty smart...lol

Chris..yeah, when nearing a max speed would be decreasing, but the point of dropping the bar fast would be to train yourself to be just as fast as with lighter weights. Thats one of the major misconceptions of speed training. Speed training isnt just using light weights(with light bands) and moving that light weight fast. The other part of speed training is to move heavier weight with speed. Speed training encompasses moving 60% of your max with speed AND moving 80-90% of your max with that same speed(or at least attempting to). The only way you can move that high of a percentage of your max with proper speed is by shortening the rom with brds.

Moving 250+ a purple band is much different than trying to mve 585+ a purple band. The only way you can achieve moving a heavy weight fast is to train moving heavy weight fast...thats my point. Controlling the load slows you down...when you are trying to be fast.

Travis Bell
06-10-2008, 09:51 PM
Good post Paul. Very good explanation. I've used alot of your stuff for max effort exercises ideas in my own training and it really works quite well.

nhlfan
06-10-2008, 09:59 PM
I'm going to try and paraphrase to see if I understand what you're saying:

try to match the bar speed of heavier weights with the DE bar speed, by shortening the ROM with boards?

chris mason
06-10-2008, 10:31 PM
rob, my mellon would have to swell considerably larger than it is now to even approach that thing you call a head..lol

No..I have written no articles. I dont have a lot of time for that kind of stuff, but maybe in the future! I am purty smart...lol

Chris..yeah, when nearing a max speed would be decreasing, but the point of dropping the bar fast would be to train yourself to be just as fast as with lighter weights. Thats one of the major misconceptions of speed training. Speed training isnt just using light weights(with light bands) and moving that light weight fast. The other part of speed training is to move heavier weight with speed. Speed training encompasses moving 60% of your max with speed AND moving 80-90% of your max with that same speed(or at least attempting to). The only way you can move that high of a percentage of your max with proper speed is by shortening the rom with brds.

Moving 250+ a purple band is much different than trying to mve 585+ a purple band. The only way you can achieve moving a heavy weight fast is to train moving heavy weight fast...thats my point. Controlling the load slows you down...when you are trying to be fast.

Ok, but if you are literally dropping the weight and allowing the bands to further accelerate the drop and then more or less bouncing the weight back up the main thing you are working in that scenario is the stretch reflex. That may or may not be a good thing. I am a bit up in the air on that one.

I think speed work with heavy loads should be geared more towards Fred Hatfield's old idea of compensentory acceleration where he suggests the lifter try to constantly accelerate the load during the concentric portion of the movement.

Now, let's get back to your idea of shortening the ROM with boards for heavy speed work. If you do that you are not really doing anything for your full range speed. The fact you are able to move a heavy load more quickly is simply because the load is not longer as heavy in a relative sense. You can lift a lot more with a shorter ROM especially when that ROM approaches lockout on the bench. A 130% of full ROM load practiced off a 3 board may only be 70% of your 3 board 1RM max (don't get hung up on the percentages, just the idea). Of course you can move that load more quicly in that ROM, but the speed you generate will NOT translate (at least to any significant degree)to the full ROM movement due to the SAID principle. By the way, that is the reason conjugate variety works, even changes in the ROM have a very different effect on the nervous system.

There is a lot to it, and I think your points are well taken, I am just enjoying discussing and debating the concepts.

Chris

kingkong51
06-11-2008, 01:21 AM
Well I can say for me 2brd is my sticking point. The way I have trained has increased my bench and I believe every one has their own opinion. I didnt know my video would bring up this much debat but I am enjoying the reading.

Travis Bell
06-11-2008, 08:29 AM
Difficult to argue with the results big guy thats for sure!

At Westside we do quite a bit with heavy band tension on ME day. When raw we will occasionally do it off boards as well. While I may not descend as quickly as Rob, many of our big guys do actually. There is something to be said for training your body (call it CNS if you like) to moving the max effort weights at DE speeds. It won't translate to the same speed off the chest, but it will make your full range faster. It helps you utilize the speed off your chest created by the shirt better. Really i think its the gear that has changed the training methods a little.

bencher8
06-11-2008, 10:15 AM
wow...i wrote a big response and it didnt post...I will summarize then..lol

1.full rom speed work with lighter tension is used to increase your full rom speed
2, High board work with heavy band tensions are used to train the body to move heavy weights with the same speed as DE work, by shortening the rom. I can honestly say my high board work with heavy weight is as fast as my DE work with lighter weight. I may miss the weight, but my descent speed and acceleration are close to the same.
3. The 130% of your full rom actually only being 70% on the 3 brd isnt accurate. For example, I have a raw 4 brd max of 675. I routinely use 455+150 bands. That would be 90% of my raw 4 brd max. I know its not 90% through the entire rom, but thats why i do triples with it.
4. travis has a good point about speed benchers being better able to utilize the speed the shirt creates(due to simple rebound effect). Some believe that speed work is useless because of the shirt rebound..I believe they are missing something, but that is a different debate.

Thats all the points I can remember I made. Good debate! Others can learn from this and I am thinking mre about my training style...good training advice here!

vdizenzo
06-11-2008, 11:42 AM
I learn from everything. Now this is a good debate. SFW!

thewicked
06-11-2008, 07:44 PM
this discussion is QUALITY RIGHT HERE! THIS IS WHY I LOVE THIS PLACE!

I'm with the control guys. I have a problem with hitting the boards fast then misgrooving it or having the bar slide. I bring it down fast enough that it's not a negative...sink the board..and explode up!

strong as hell big rob....i love it when you post vids! TALK ABOUT MOTIVATING!

chris mason
06-11-2008, 09:45 PM
Well I can say for me 2brd is my sticking point. The way I have trained has increased my bench and I believe every one has their own opinion. I didnt know my video would bring up this much debat but I am enjoying the reading.

Hey, and just to reiterate, I am NOT bashing you, just having an intellectual discussion about benching.

chris mason
06-11-2008, 09:47 PM
wow...i wrote a big response and it didnt post...I will summarize then..lol

1.full rom speed work with lighter tension is used to increase your full rom speed
2, High board work with heavy band tensions are used to train the body to move heavy weights with the same speed as DE work, by shortening the rom. I can honestly say my high board work with heavy weight is as fast as my DE work with lighter weight. I may miss the weight, but my descent speed and acceleration are close to the same.
3. The 130% of your full rom actually only being 70% on the 3 brd isnt accurate. For example, I have a raw 4 brd max of 675. I routinely use 455+150 bands. That would be 90% of my raw 4 brd max. I know its not 90% through the entire rom, but thats why i do triples with it.
4. travis has a good point about speed benchers being better able to utilize the speed the shirt creates(due to simple rebound effect). Some believe that speed work is useless because of the shirt rebound..I believe they are missing something, but that is a different debate.

Thats all the points I can remember I made. Good debate! Others can learn from this and I am thinking mre about my training style...good training advice here!


I know the percentages weren't accurate (I think I said so, but maybe not). I was just using them to make the point.

chris mason
06-11-2008, 09:48 PM
Difficult to argue with the results big guy thats for sure!



Yep, lol, works for him about 1000% better than my benching :).

bencher8
06-12-2008, 09:33 AM
Yes, you did say the percentages werent accurate. I wasnt talking about the percentages specifically, but the general concept.

but anyway...was a good debate! I think we prolly just agree to disagree on this particular subject. I liked how it was easy to talk about though without anybody calling names or anything...other than Rob, but hes a smart ass anyway, gotta figure on him chiming in lol

Rob Luyando
06-12-2008, 09:37 AM
Yes, you did say the percentages werent accurate. I wasnt talking about the percentages specifically, but the general concept.

but anyway...was a good debate! I think we prolly just agree to disagree on this particular subject. I liked how it was easy to talk about though without anybody calling names or anything...other than Rob, but hes a smart ass anyway, gotta figure on him chiming in lol

Hey now I never called anyone names on this post. And even as much as I don't like to I agreed with you about droppping the bar fast (under control) for best results with bands. Now a smart ass.......... LOL!

kingkong51
06-12-2008, 10:43 AM
This is one of the best discussion Ive ever read.

Travis Bell
06-12-2008, 12:26 PM
I think one of the key differences here could possibly be whether a person is training for a raw bench or a shirted bench? Thoughts?

kingkong51
06-12-2008, 12:54 PM
Now my trainings is a carryover into the shirt because I believe it will benefit handling heavier weights in the long run.

chris mason
06-12-2008, 08:21 PM
I think one of the key differences here could possibly be whether a person is training for a raw bench or a shirted bench? Thoughts?


Well, there is a difference, of that we can be sure. Lockout strength is king with shirted benching from what I have seen. Think of it this way, if you have a hard time touching 700+ lbs you are getting a lot of help from the shirt for the first several inches of the movement. So, in that scenario, I would think using momentum to really get the bar moving along with the boards to shorten the ROM, and then having the bands increase the resistance as you near lockout would be excellent training for a shirted press.

Eric Downey
06-12-2008, 09:08 PM
Eric..why pause on the boards? I can see maybe pausing every now and then, but pausing only trains the stretch reflex. Stretch reflex can last up to 15 sec, so no need to pause...at least all the time. I give up the stretch reflex to use heavier weight...heavier weight equals greater strength gains. Another point with pausing would negate any speed increases that could be gained by using bands, because you are dropping, then slowing yourself down to prepare to pause, then have to regain speed to lockout....seems like half of the time you are slowing yourself down, instead of trying to speed up.

The only answer I have is that Ive herd Bill Carp say it before and its how Jesse has us do them. Only being a mid 6 bencher as far as my meet lifts go, I'm in no place to tell people benching more than me for longer than me there wrong. Ive gotten stonger both in my shirt and raw from it so I can only say it just works.

By the way bencher8 they called you Paul. As in Paul Key?

Eric Downey
06-12-2008, 09:11 PM
I think one of the key differences here could possibly be whether a person is training for a raw bench or a shirted bench? Thoughts?

I think a raw bencher can get results from the larger brds to build lock out strength, but have some band tension at all times to build the explosion out the whole. Even if its minis dbl its some type on extra weight at the bottom.

bencher8
06-12-2008, 10:43 PM
yep Eric Paul Key...bencher8 is just a screen name I picked.

A lifter still gains speed using the bands focusing on either raw or shirted benching. Bands I do think would be of greater benefit to the shirted bencher, as it closely simulates what benching in a shirt is like(lighter in the bottom, due to the shirt helping. and heavier in the top of the rom, like a shirt losing some of the support at lockout).

I think a raw bencher needs more ability to move heavy weight in the weakest part of the rom...which for most is on the chest or a few inches above...due to the angle of the elbow. Raw benching I thin would benefit more from full rom DE benching and ME movements that are close to the full rom. Bands can still be utilized to gain speed for a raw bencher, but cutting the rom down using high boards wouldnt be necessary most f the time.

I remember training at WSB with George when I used to train there. We did a training cycle looking to increase our raw max. There wasnt a lot of band usage in that training cycle for ME day, mostly straight weight work off lower brds and full rom, cambered bar work off 2 brds, and DB and BB floor presses with chains. The one thing George did do during that training cycle was a lof of heavier band usage on DE day..which I thought was odd. Maybe I was just a guinea pig though lol We would do things like DE bench with a blue and a green band for singles. We would set it up in a power rack where the Blue band was doubled under the power rack and then a green band was doubled around a pin that was placed to kick in at about halfway through rom. That exercise was an asskicker! Oh yeah..a LOT of emphasis was done with CG during that cycle too. I improved my raw bench from 545 or so to 615 though in about 12 weeks.

chris mason
06-12-2008, 10:51 PM
yep Eric Paul Key...bencher8 is just a screen name I picked.

A lifter still gains speed using the bands focusing on either raw or shirted benching. Bands I do think would be of greater benefit to the shirted bencher, as it closely simulates what benching in a shirt is like(lighter in the bottom, due to the shirt helping. and heavier in the top of the rom, like a shirt losing some of the support at lockout).

I think a raw bencher needs more ability to move heavy weight in the weakest part of the rom...which for most is on the chest or a few inches above...due to the angle of the elbow. Raw benching I thin would benefit more from full rom DE benching and ME movements that are close to the full rom. Bands can still be utilized to gain speed for a raw bencher, but cutting the rom down using high boards wouldnt be necessary most f the time.

I remember training at WSB with George when I used to train there. We did a training cycle looking to increase our raw max. There wasnt a lot of band usage in that training cycle for ME day, mostly straight weight work off lower brds and full rom, cambered bar work off 2 brds, and DB and BB floor presses with chains. The one thing George did do during that training cycle was a lof of heavier band usage on DE day..which I thought was odd. Maybe I was just a guinea pig though lol We would do things like DE bench with a blue and a green band for singles. We would set it up in a power rack where the Blue band was doubled under the power rack and then a green band was doubled around a pin that was placed to kick in at about halfway through rom. That exercise was an asskicker! Oh yeah..a LOT of emphasis was done with CG during that cycle too. I improved my raw bench from 545 or so to 615 though in about 12 weeks.

That's a nice raw press! :)

Eric Downey
06-12-2008, 11:02 PM
I agree off the chest is the toughest unless of course your Halbert. Guy moves weight faster than any one ive seen. Myself if I touch and go I feel I dont have as much power if I just pause for a half sec and blast out the whole with more control to transfer to my tris.

Travis Bell
06-13-2008, 07:56 AM
yep Eric Paul Key...bencher8 is just a screen name I picked.

A lifter still gains speed using the bands focusing on either raw or shirted benching. Bands I do think would be of greater benefit to the shirted bencher, as it closely simulates what benching in a shirt is like(lighter in the bottom, due to the shirt helping. and heavier in the top of the rom, like a shirt losing some of the support at lockout).

I think a raw bencher needs more ability to move heavy weight in the weakest part of the rom...which for most is on the chest or a few inches above...due to the angle of the elbow. Raw benching I thin would benefit more from full rom DE benching and ME movements that are close to the full rom. Bands can still be utilized to gain speed for a raw bencher, but cutting the rom down using high boards wouldnt be necessary most f the time.

I remember training at WSB with George when I used to train there. We did a training cycle looking to increase our raw max. There wasnt a lot of band usage in that training cycle for ME day, mostly straight weight work off lower brds and full rom, cambered bar work off 2 brds, and DB and BB floor presses with chains. The one thing George did do during that training cycle was a lof of heavier band usage on DE day..which I thought was odd. Maybe I was just a guinea pig though lol We would do things like DE bench with a blue and a green band for singles. We would set it up in a power rack where the Blue band was doubled under the power rack and then a green band was doubled around a pin that was placed to kick in at about halfway through rom. That exercise was an asskicker! Oh yeah..a LOT of emphasis was done with CG during that cycle too. I improved my raw bench from 545 or so to 615 though in about 12 weeks.

He still does that sometimes. Very good exercise

bencher8
06-13-2008, 11:01 AM
Thanks Chris! I trained more raw work then than I can now. After tearing my right pec tendon off I cant do heavy raw full rom work. I prolly should have had surgery to repair it, but I couldnt see doing surgery just so I could raw bench again lol I am a bonified gear lover!

yeah..George is pretty fast! lol I learned from the speed master...I depend on speed to lockout weights. If I drop my speed work I can see a definite difference within 3 weeks.