Arab - Israeli conflict... why do you guys care so much?

[BFGUITAR]

CLARIFICATION:
When I say you this refers to anyone who is not Jewish/Israeli or Muslim/Arabic/Persian.

Why do all you people care so much? I just thought about it recently. I care because I am Jewish. I have family in Israel so naturally I care about the situation. At the same time, there are Arabs/Persians in the area who also care. Israel is their neighbour, they have opinions about the country.

There are hundreds of MAJOR problems in this world yet Israel seems to always be the hottest topic. The worldwide Jewish population is about 13 million. A mere 13 million Jews inhabit the 6 billion people on the planet yet so much attention is directed our way (negative or not, this isn't a rant but rather a question).

This post probably has a negative tone, I did not mean for it to be so. Simply, why is this topic of such importance to YOU people?

I have a feeling that the media covers this topic so often that naturally everyone will start caring. If the media covered Darfur like Israel maybe it would be different.

[fpr]

Probably because I view the countries around Israel to be terrorist-harboring/"friendly" nations. And, if they succeed in gaining back Israeli territory, where do the Israeli's have left to go, the sea?

[Jordanbcool]

When I did watch about it I did because they kind of reminded me of a young U.S. Surrounded by enemies on all sides and didn't have much to depend on but each other. It seems (like the U.S.) Israel has also done very well with little help from others nations.

I also like it when Israeli tanks blow up a suspected terrorist compound. Thats always pretty awesome to watch or hear about. Maybe Americans like watching about it so much because in many ways Israel reminds us of ourselves. We aren't the only ones most Arab nations hate with a passion.

[CrazyK]

When I did watch about it I did because they kind of reminded me of a young U.S. Surrounded by enemies on all sides and didn't have much to depend on but each other. It seems (like the U.S.) Israel has also done very well with little help from others nations.

I also like it when Israeli tanks blow up a suspected terrorist compound. Thats always pretty awesome to watch or hear about. Maybe Americans like watching about it so much because in many ways Israel reminds us of ourselves. We aren't the only ones most Arab nations hate with a passion.Little help from other nations? The US has given more aide to Israel then the entirety of Africa and the rest of the Middle East combined. Including very advanced weaponary, and a pass to develop Nuclear weapons at dimona. Most of the blowing up you see is of Palestinian homes which Israel bulldozes on a regular basis. Despite its ratification of the geneva conventions, which made such an act illegal according to international law. Tie in the illegal settlements they replace the bulldozed homes with and you have a state who should really be receiving no aide from any country as long as they do this.

And...I'm half arab so I really can't throw in my 2 cents as per the original posters question. However if I was not Jewish or Arab I'd most definately care that a large portion of my taxes dollars are going to support activities done by the Israeli Government which both are internationally illegal and support terrorism by given the Palestinian people vast encouragement to be angry.

Also to add, as someone from the arab-muslim culture, none of these people hate America for its values or freedom. They hate interference with their lives by the US Government. Any hatred toward America is a direct result of US Government support for Israel and US bases in Muslim countries. The hypocrisy of supposendly supporting democracy in Iraq while subsequently supporting a dictator in Pakistan doesn't help matters either.

[BFGUITAR]

Ok, very good answers. I have learned something very important today.

And crazyK, I do agree that much of what Israel does isn't exactly the best thing to do in terms of a solution, but the only side which has publicly given opportunities of any sort have been the Israelis. You don't see parades of Jewish people on the street with signs says "Death to all Palestinians". And if you do, I can assure you they are a very small minority of the total problem. A very large difference between Israelis and Palestinians is the amount of education and secularism. Religion has tendency to create ignorant people.

Not to mention Arafat really messed over some deals that could have gone through. Especially with Barak. There is a difference between hating Israel and hating Jews. From what I can see, there is a hatred of both. One cannot deal with such people when they hate who you are at the core.

I am sure black people understand this especially. How do you deal with someone who hates black people? You cannot.

[CrazyK]

And crazyK, I do agree that much of what Israel does isn't exactly the best thing to do in terms of a solution, but the only side which has publicly given opportunities of any sort have been the Israelis. You don't see parades of Jewish people on the street with signs says "Death to all Palestinians". And if you do, I can assure you they are a very small minority of the total problem. A very large difference between Israelis and Palestinians is the amount of education and secularism. Religion has tendency to create ignorant people.Ehud Barak actually denied a peace agreement that was given by the Palestinians and accepted by Bill Clinton. Also the Arab nations have made repeated pleas to return to the 1967 borders in exchange for peace and recognition of Israel. Israel has continually refused this conclusion outright.

Also take a look at the Likud party, and Israeli settler interviews and actions. The Likud party even took hold of the Government with Ariel Sharon being elected(he was a mass murderer in Lebanon). When the Government itself is supporting terrorism(illegal settlements and bulldozing) one does not need to carry signs through the streets or commit suicide bombing. You're own military is settling the issue for you.

[nhlfan]

crazyk's first post was entirely on point.

[VikingWarlord]

Probably because I view the countries around Israel to be terrorist-harboring/"friendly" nations. And, if they succeed in gaining back Israeli territory, where do the Israeli's have left to go, the sea?

Even though it's an unpopular view, it doesn't really matter. Israel was taken from the people that lived there. Israel hadn't existed for a really, really long time before the end of WW2.

The state of Israel was created because we felt bad. That's what it boils down to.

That said, I don't particularly care. I'm tired as **** of the whole situation and I think all international forces should be yanked and everyone should just kill each other. Make drilling for oil a whole lot easier if no one's there anymore.

[killxswitch]

I care some I guess because we have soldiers stationed around the area. If we didn't I personally wouldn't care at all. There are of course terrorists in that area that should probably be kept in check and I suppose Israel does that, but again I don't care much because that is someone else's job to deal with it, and almost nothing I do has any effect on that situation

[shootermcgavin7]

Even though it's an unpopular view, it doesn't really matter. Israel was taken from the people that lived there. Israel hadn't existed for a really, really long time before the end of WW2.



While the modern state of Israel is only slightly removed from an unhinged, out-of-control nation; the arguments against their founding are unfounded.



Israel hadn't existed for a really, really long time, but neither had any other independent nation.

Before the British Empire took it over (and subsequently dumped it in the lap of the newly formed UN); it was part of the Ottoman Empire.

ANY modern nation states in the region were haphazardously carved at the whim of the British Empire.........they weren't "taken" from anyone.



That said, I don't have any skin in the game. Both governments have handled the situation poorly. When people get talking about religion and family history, they become irrational....nothing that has occurred in the region in the past half-century has been anything near rational.

[Songsangnim]

Ehud Barak actually denied a peace agreement that was given by the Palestinians and accepted by Bill Clinton. Also the Arab nations have made repeated pleas to return to the 1967 borders in exchange for peace and recognition of Israel. Israel has continually refused this conclusion outright.

.

Why shouldn't they? Israel would have had its 1967 borders STILL if the Arabs hadn't declared war on it. It is entirely their fault.
And Arafat had a generous peace offer which he refused. And now the Palestinians are worse off then ever because of their own leaders.

[BFGUITAR]

Arafat was not in a position to bargain. Of course Barak declined the offer he made... do you honestly believe Arafat thought it was fair? Of course not. You could say that about the other side but than again, Israel didn't have to make that offer.

[ProLogic]

Jews have been messed with since time can remember.

[deeder]

I don't care... :evillaugh:

[CrazyK]

Why shouldn't they? Israel would have had its 1967 borders STILL if the Arabs hadn't declared war on it. It is entirely their fault.
And Arafat had a generous peace offer which he refused. And now the Palestinians are worse off then ever because of their own leaders.Actually Israel launched its troops in a pre-emptive strike first. Egypt was amassing troops at the border because of the rising tension, but did not fire first.

And generous peace offer? I don't think massive Israeli settlements fingering through your entire nation, essentially barring travel and commerce is any sort of brokerage of peace. Arafat knew if he accepted it would just bring about more violence as Palestinians couldn't live under such conditions. Israel in effect is the single largest supporter of terrorism in the region.

[azma]

I'm ethnically Persian, but that's not why I care. I care because good people on both sides die every day, and because my American government is ****ing me over by throwing money and at a conflict that doesn't concern it.


I have a feeling that the media covers this topic so often that naturally everyone will start caring. If the media covered Darfur like Israel maybe it would be different.

AGREED.

[Songsangnim]

Actually Israel launched its troops in a pre-emptive strike first. Egypt was amassing troops at the border because of the rising tension, but did not fire first.

And generous peace offer? I don't think massive Israeli settlements fingering through your entire nation, essentially barring travel and commerce is any sort of brokerage of peace. Arafat knew if he accepted it would just bring about more violence as Palestinians couldn't live under such conditions. Israel in effect is the single largest supporter of terrorism in the region.


Egypt was also calling for a united Arab attack on Israel. It was waiting until the others were ready. Was Israel supposed to wait and let them get ready to strike first? No, sound military strategy dictates otherwise.

If you have a machine gun and someone has a knife, and he tells you "Just wait until my brothers come here with their guns and then I will kill you", would you? Of course not.

But somehow Israel is different.:confused:

And if the Arabs had not attacked them FIRST in 1948 then this whole mess could have been avoided.


As for the peace plan, there would be no settlements "fingering through". The peace plan called for "the removal of isolated settlements and transfer of the land to Palestinian control"

The deal foundered on Arafat's insistence on the "right of return" something he knew that Israel could "not accept under any peace plan since it would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state"

And your claim that "Palestinians couldn't live under such conditions." is laughable on the face of it.
They are even WORSE off now. And the violence is even worse...they are now killing EACH OTHER instead of the Israelis.

http://palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_campdavid_2000.php

[azma]

I see a winless debate brewing.

...My intention isn't to stifle discussion, but does anyone here really feel that either Israel or Palestine has the moral high ground, and deserves to have all its demands met?

[rdkraus]

I see a winless debate brewing.

...My intention isn't to stifle discussion, but does anyone here really feel that either Israel or Palestine has the moral high ground, and deserves to have all its demands met?

Israel's main demand is that it's neighbors rescind their stated (it's no secret) goal to destroy Israel, and push all of the Jews into the sea. I think Israel deserves to have that demand met.

I'm Jewish, but I think I'd feel the same about that if I wasn't.

[azma]

Israel's main demand is that it's neighbors rescind their stated (it's no secret) goal to destroy Israel, and push all of the Jews into the sea. I think Israel deserves to have that demand met.

I'm Jewish, but I think I'd feel the same about that if I wasn't.

^Oversimplification.

When you consider Israel's existence in terms of an encroachment on lands, it's hard to say that the clear choice for Arab peoples in the region is to grant legitimacy to the Israeli government and be satisfied at that. Israeli blockades have crippled the Palestinian economy -- 2/3 of all Palestinians live below the poverty line, in large part because over half are unemployed. As far as many non-Israelis in the region are concerned, Israel is just the occupied state of Palestine, and has no right to exist.

It's not so simple a conflict that we can say that the right answer is:
"Mother Israel stays where it is, and all the violence shall end."

Nor can we say:
"Palestine is right, all the Zionists must go."

There's a balance somewhere in between....I sure as hell can't find it, but I hope it'll be obvious someday.

[JoseAlonso]

I'm neither here nor there with it.

[BFGUITAR]

^Oversimplification.

When you consider Israel's existence in terms of an encroachment on lands, it's hard to say that the clear choice for Arab peoples in the region is to grant legitimacy to the Israeli government and be satisfied at that. Israeli blockades have crippled the Palestinian economy -- 2/3 of all Palestinians live below the poverty line, in large part because over half are unemployed. As far as many non-Israelis in the region are concerned, Israel is just the occupied state of Palestine, and has no right to exist.

It's not so simple a conflict that we can say that the right answer is:
"Mother Israel stays where it is, and all the violence shall end."

Nor can we say:
"Palestine is right, all the Zionists must go."

There's a balance somewhere in between....I sure as hell can't find it, but I hope it'll be obvious someday.

You think Israelis don't want there to be a Palestinian state? Of course there are that do, but most are like me. Of course there can be a Palestinian state but one thing that must be understood is the Palestinians are in no place to bargain. As bad as that sounds, the Palestinians have nothing to lose. Israel does not need to give land out yet it was still offered, and declined.

All the bull of "we were there first" doesn't hold up. This is how the world works.

Palestinians want a deal on their terms only. Of course Israel will decline what do you think?

[Brawl]

Heres where I stand ...we have family members by marriage that are arab , one day I was sitting there listening to them piss and moan so I finally said ...I will listen to your arguement to give back all that Israeli land when you GIVE back your house and land you own to the Indians .

He looked at me with a stupid a$$ look on his face .

[Songsangnim]

^Oversimplification.

When you consider Israel's existence in terms of an encroachment on lands, it's hard to say that the clear choice for Arab peoples in the region is to grant legitimacy to the Israeli government and be satisfied at that. Israeli blockades have crippled the Palestinian economy -- 2/3 of all Palestinians live below the poverty line, in large part because over half are unemployed. As far as many non-Israelis in the region are concerned, Israel is just the occupied state of Palestine, and has no right to exist.

It's not so simple a conflict that we can say that the right answer is:
"Mother Israel stays where it is, and all the violence shall end."

Nor can we say:
"Palestine is right, all the Zionists must go."

There's a balance somewhere in between....I sure as hell can't find it, but I hope it'll be obvious someday.



As pointed out already by another poster above, Palestine was NEVER a state to begin with. It was part of the Ottoman Empire and after that fell apart it was under the control of the British who promised the Jews a homeland there. That is all. And it would not be an issue today had the Arabs abided by the UN acceptance of Israel as a legitimate state. They resorted to force of arms several times, lost each time and now today whine about it. If the surrounding Arab nations were so concerned about their Palestinian "brothers" they'd take them in.

[ct67_72]

I unfortunately can not say that I follow in this much. To me what bothers me most and affects me most especially being jewish is uneducated peoples perception of the whole situation. There always seems to be someone who is looking for an excuse to say something about someone being jewish or crack a joke about the situation because of religion.
So I guess its not the situation in general but the side effects that really bother me, if that makes sense.

[azma]

You think Israelis don't want there to be a Palestinian state? Of course there are that do, but most are like me. Of course there can be a Palestinian state but one thing that must be understood is the Palestinians are in no place to bargain. As bad as that sounds, the Palestinians have nothing to lose. Israel does not need to give land out yet it was still offered, and declined.

All the bull of "we were there first" doesn't hold up. This is how the world works.

Palestinians want a deal on their terms only. Of course Israel will decline what do you think?

From an IR Realism perspective, Israel has the militaristic and financial upper hand -- but that doesn't mean the Palestinians have nothing to lose. Aside from past occurrences, there's all sorts of bleak conjecture about the future to worry about. And the "we were there first" argument is something you see from both sides, and to equally useless effect.


As pointed out already by another poster above, Palestine was NEVER a state to begin with. It was part of the Ottoman Empire and after that fell apart it was under the control of the British who promised the Jews a homeland there. That is all. And it would not be an issue today had the Arabs abided by the UN acceptance of Israel as a legitimate state. They resorted to force of arms several times, lost each time and now today whine about it. If the surrounding Arab nations were so concerned about their Palestinian "brothers" they'd take them in.

I was referring to the Iranian passport, which reads something like "this document does not allow passage to the occupied state of Palestine." I never said anything about whether or not Palestine is a state, so chill.

As for the UN and legitimacy: for you to make it seem like the issue has EVER been clear-cut is absolutely wrong. From the earliest British mistake to the most recent violence, divisiveness like that which your post exemplifies ("Arabs whine, blah blah blah) has only caused problems. It's impossible to fully comprehend the situation when one turns a blind eye to mistakes on one side, and treats the other side like an irrational enemy.


BUT AYO: I'm not pro-Palestine, by any means -- Palestine propagates just as much violence as Israel, and in a less palatable way. I'm pro-harmony. I feel as though the first step to harmony, though, is honesty about what has happened. Political maneuvering has yet to establish a lasting peace, and likely will not. I have no idea what can be done about the problem, but I feel strongly that hatemongering and prejudice isn't the answer. Why doesn't anyone here say, "I'm Jewish, and I can't believe Israel would invade Lebanon and kill so many innocent people! I understand the rationale, but it caused more harm than good," ya know? I love my Jewish friends, and I love my Palestinian friends, but that doesn't mean I should turn a blind eye to wrongdoing on one side or the other.

[Songsangnim]

From an IR Realism perspective, Israel has the militaristic and financial upper hand -- but that doesn't mean the Palestinians have nothing to lose. Aside from past occurrences, there's all sorts of bleak conjecture about the future to worry about. And the "we were there first" argument is something you see from both sides, and to equally useless effect.



I was referring to the Iranian passport, which reads something like "this document does not allow passage to the occupied state of Palestine." I never said anything about whether or not Palestine is a state, so chill.

I fail to see how the Iranian passport has any legimicacy in this argument. And if you were referencing a text you should cite the source...otherwise people are going to think it's your ideas. And yes, I'm "chill"..I have the A/C going full blast.

As for the UN and legitimacy: for you to make it seem like the issue has EVER been clear-cut is absolutely wrong.

This issue is clear-cut. (a) Palestine was not a state and never has been. Period. It was a British controlled territory and they had the right to dispose of it as they saw fit. Just as we have the right to dispose of our terrorities in North America...do you think we should hand back OUR lands to the Native Americans BTW?

From the earliest British mistake to the most recent violence, divisiveness like that which your post exemplifies ("Arabs whine, blah blah blah) has only caused problems. It's impossible to fully comprehend the situation when one turns a blind eye to mistakes on one side, and treats the other side like an irrational enemy.

Israel has certainly made mistakes. However when you're hemmed in on all side by nations which at one time or another had said you should be wiped out or attempted to destroy you...a fair amount of leeway is in order


BUT AYO: I'm not pro-Palestine, by any means -- Palestine propagates just as much violence as Israel, and in a less palatable way. I'm pro-harmony. I feel as though the first step to harmony, though, is honesty about what has happened. Political maneuvering has yet to establish a lasting peace, and likely will not. I have no idea what can be done about the problem, but I feel strongly that hatemongering and prejudice isn't the answer. Why doesn't anyone here say, "I'm Jewish, and I can't believe Israel would invade Lebanon and kill so many innocent people! I understand the rationale, but it caused more harm than good," ya know? I love my Jewish friends, and I love my Palestinian friends, but that doesn't mean I should turn a blind eye to wrongdoing on one side or the other.


I don't think there are many Jewish lifters on this board. You might have more success finding a lifting forum in Israel...:)

[Fuzzy]

****, Ive lost two siblings and countless family and friends to the damn ****ing conflict and I dont even care anymore.

It hurts me to know people are dying... but in the end, I have my good life here in Australia, and the frustration I feel is better used on a bar and plates instead of endless blaming.

[RBB]

That said, I don't particularly care. I'm tired as **** of the whole situation and I think all international forces should be yanked and everyone should just kill each other. Make drilling for oil a whole lot easier if no one's there anymore.

i couldn't agree more.

[CrazyK]

This topic has gone way off the course of its original purpose, and is now about nationhood legitimacy and so on, so I won't reply to those who brought up such things.

The question at hand is why do/should Westerner's(assumed) care about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Well... Israel lobby influence is one of they most powerful influences in the US Government foriegn policy. Through there smear tactics, labeling of "anti-semitism", and faulty information, they have undermined US interests and even Israeli interests to further hard-line goals.

The Israel lobby encompasses many different types, notably the neoconservatives and/or christian-zionists. Through their tactics it is very hard to have open debate on Israeli policy, and US national interest is at stake by supporting Israel irregardless of its actions. They have repeatedly violated international law, and continually put Palestinians in the west bank in to an apartheid. Yet the US Government continues to give vast amounts of aid ($$$ and militarily) to Israel, which is paid out of your tax dollar.

All of these things combined sponsor terrorism, promote distrust of the west, and fuel anti-semitism throughout the middle east. By not having an even handed approach to the issue we lose on many accounts. Israel's existence is hardly at stake anymore given the current conditions of having a friendly Egypt and Jordan, with a weak Syria and a militia in Southern Lebanon compared to an extremely advanced IDF, with Nuclear weaponary and technology none of these countries could ever dream of (Thanks to Uncle Sam).

So in essence why should Americans care? Your tax dollars are going to a state which violates international law, commits crimes against humanity, and supports terrorism through its actions. And last but not least, a state that is based on its citizenry being of a certain ethnicity is extremely racist and against ALL American values.

*Side note: I'm not for the destruction of Israel, "pushing jews in to the sea", or anything of that nature. A right of return to Palestinians displaced forcefully in 1948, democratic elections, and either a complete withdrawal from the current occupied territories or a grant of citizenship to the Palestinians(voting rights, rights to serve in the military) would be my ideal conclusion.

[BFGUITAR]

This topic has gone way off the course of its original purpose, and is now about nationhood legitimacy and so on, so I won't reply to those who brought up such things.

The question at hand is why do/should Westerner's(assumed) care about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Well... Israel lobby influence is one of they most powerful influences in the US Government foriegn policy. Through there smear tactics, labeling of "anti-semitism", and faulty information, they have undermined US interests and even Israeli interests to further hard-line goals.

The Israel lobby encompasses many different types, notably the neoconservatives and/or christian-zionists. Through their tactics it is very hard to have open debate on Israeli policy, and US national interest is at stake by supporting Israel irregardless of its actions. They have repeatedly violated international law, and continually put Palestinians in the west bank in to an apartheid. Yet the US Government continues to give vast amounts of aid ($$$ and militarily) to Israel, which is paid out of your tax dollar.

All of these things combined sponsor terrorism, promote distrust of the west, and fuel anti-semitism throughout the middle east. By not having an even handed approach to the issue we lose on many accounts. Israel's existence is hardly at stake anymore given the current conditions of having a friendly Egypt and Jordan, with a weak Syria and a militia in Southern Lebanon compared to an extremely advanced IDF, with Nuclear weaponary and technology none of these countries could ever dream of (Thanks to Uncle Sam).

So in essence why should Americans care? Your tax dollars are going to a state which violates international law, commits crimes against humanity, and supports terrorism through its actions. And last but not least, a state that is based on its citizenry being of a certain ethnicity is extremely racist and against ALL American values.

*Side note: I'm not for the destruction of Israel, "pushing jews in to the sea", or anything of that nature. A right of return to Palestinians displaced forcefully in 1948, democratic elections, and either a complete withdrawal from the current occupied territories or a grant of citizenship to the Palestinians(voting rights, rights to serve in the military) would be my ideal conclusion.

The whole "It was once their so give it back" deal never works... It isn't worth it to use it in an argument.

If all these Palestinians were in your country would you give them citizenship? Rights to vote, serve in the military... Because of course giving uneducated people guns is a great idea (not all Palestinians are uneducated). Considering every Israeli citizen must serve in the army for 2 years this would include Palestinians. And considering a good percentage want Jews (JEWS, not Israelis) dead that would not fly very well.

That being said, I am all for a Palestinian state. But why should it be on their terms? None of the sides will make a deal unless it suits themselves. The main difference here is that Israel is in power. Saying Israel shouldn't be in power and that everything should go back to the way it was is irrelevant. It's like saying we give back all the land to the Aboriginals and move back to Europe. It doesn't fly. I have no question in my mind that if Palestinians as a people were to prove themselves over time things will work out. But denying every offer (even if it doesn't suit them) and saying they want things the way it used to be isn't progress, it's nostalgia.

[CrazyK]

The whole "It was once their so give it back" deal never works... It isn't worth it to use it in an argument. It worked for the Jews in the balfour declaration. I don't see how it doesn't serve an even better moral case as there are Palestinians living today abroad, who were forcibly kicked off their land. Those ones should be given a right to return.
If all these Palestinians were in your country would you give them citizenship? Rights to vote, serve in the military... Because of course giving uneducated people guns is a great idea (not all Palestinians are uneducated). Considering every Israeli citizen must serve in the army for 2 years this would include Palestinians. And considering a good percentage want Jews (JEWS, not Israelis) dead that would not fly very well. First of all you have to realize why they hate Jews, and why many Jews hate Arabs. It's all because of conflict. Give the Palestinians rights and it doesn't cure this animosity, but it does calm it down substantially. Take Irish-British relations, and former apartheid South Africa as an example. Not to mention a mandatory mental aptitude test as is conducted in the US military would fare well to keep mentally inept people, Jewish and Arab, out of the military.

That being said, I am all for a Palestinian state. But why should it be on their terms? None of the sides will make a deal unless it suits themselves. The main difference here is that Israel is in power. Saying Israel shouldn't be in power and that everything should go back to the way it was is irrelevant. It's like saying we give back all the land to the Aboriginals and move back to Europe. It doesn't fly. I have no question in my mind that if Palestinians as a people were to prove themselves over time things will work out. But denying every offer (even if it doesn't suit them) and saying they want things the way it used to be isn't progress, it's nostalgia. I fail to understand how it has ever been on Palestinian terms. Those people were the victims of the crossfire from Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. Herded like cattle since 1948. Releasing them from occupation is a MUST for Israel, and meeting basic human rights standards and the stoppage of violating international law will be for the betterment of all in the end. They're on par to actually outnumber Israeli's in the coming years, a 50/50 split of the entire whole of Palestine would be "fair". Unoccupying the occupied territories and giving a right of return for displaced Palestinians is just throwing them a bone. Bolded. EDIT: And yes I would let any capable person who is a citizen of this country have rights, regardless of their ethnicity or religion. This is a basic American value, and it's hard to believe that the people of the holocaust can turn around and be so vicious toward a population of people.

[Organichu]

I care because I'm an Israeli citizen.

They care because I'm the sun. Literally people follow me wherever I go.

Pretty much I'm a trend setter. Make sense?

[CrazyK]

I care because I'm an Israeli citizen.

They care because I'm the sun. Literally people follow me wherever I go.

Pretty much I'm a trend setter. Make sense?lol. See this is the kind of Israeli I like. Much more relaxed. I'm visiting Israel this summer to work in a rehab center, any places I should see besides the obvious?

[BFGUITAR]

1) Palestine was never sovereign state under Palestinian rule.

2) Many Jews don't hate arabs. I would say at least 90% of Jews don't hate Arabs. We all know there are good Arabs who want peace and those who don't. Who the heck are you talking to? None of us hate Islam what so ever. One thing most Jewish people are able to do is separate political problems and religious problems. Many Arabs/Muslims hate Jews. This hatred is not reciprocated. And if it is, not nearly in the same way. Jews may not like the Arab political view, but not their religious views. We could care less.

And what about those more intelligent Palestinians who still want Jewish people dead? It's just a bad idea. You don't want an army looking over their shoulder hoping their brother in combat wont shoot them.

3) Do you honestly think just giving Palestinians all that land will solve all the problems? Or even some of them? I don't think Palestinians will stop bickering until they have the entire country. It's their mentality that is the problem, not their land.

[BFGUITAR]

lol. See this is the kind of Israeli I like. Much more relaxed. I'm visiting Israel this summer to work in a rehab center, any places I should see besides the obvious?

Within those obvious places, make sure you explore a lot. I absolutely love the street food in Jerusalem.

[CrazyK]

1) Palestine was never sovereign state under Palestinian rule. Irrelevant. The Palestinian people do exist as a sub ethnic group, and consitute a sizable piece (50% in a decade) of Israel and the occupied terrotories. It's also irrelevant as human rights and international law applies to everyone.
2) Many Jews don't hate arabs. I would say at least 90% of Jews don't hate Arabs. We all know there are good Arabs who want peace and those who don't. Who the heck are you talking to? None of us hate Islam what so ever. One thing most Jewish people are able to do is separate political problems and religious problems. Many Arabs/Muslims hate Jews. This hatred is not reciprocated. And if it is, not nearly in the same way. Jews may not like the Arab political view, but not their religious views. We could care less. The hate is reciprocated through breaking of international laws, apartheid, and racism. Also 2 UN resolutions call for a right of return for Palestinians displaced by IDF/Haganah forces in 1948. This constitutes 55% of the displaced.

And what about those more intelligent Palestinians who still want Jewish people dead? It's just a bad idea. You don't want an army looking over their shoulder hoping their brother in combat wont shoot them. What about the intelligent Jewish Settlers who wants Palestinians dead? I suggest you google "Israeli settler violence" and look up what they're doing and see for yourself. There are extremists no matter where you go.
3) Do you honestly think just giving Palestinians all that land will solve all the problems? Or even some of them? I don't think Palestinians will stop bickering until they have the entire country. It's their mentality that is the problem, not their land. All problems? Absolutely not. In fact it will create some new ones. However the situation will calm down immensely in my opinion. Again refer to the Irish-British conflict along with South Africa. Give people rights and it changes their mentality. Over generations the anger subsides.Bolded.

[Songsangnim]

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israeljewsracismdersh130112.html


As long as the Palestinians engage in such tactics as above...indiscriminate killing of civilians including their own...Israel has every right to hold them at bay. Israel's primary duty is to safeguard its own civilians. If the Palestinians can't govern themselves and keep their terror groups to heel, then they don't deserve a state. We have enough failed and dysfunctional states in the world today without creating another one.

[Songsangnim]

Some more links...looks like the Palestinians (the Hamas government and faction) are fast losing sympathy even among other Arabs. These are Arab writers BTW...


http://aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=5534

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZNN/message/317


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885946368&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[CrazyK]

Song...this is irrelevant to the topic at hand. Israel violates international laws and until they stop groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and other anti-Israel factions will garner support. Almost all Arab and Muslim writers have condemned Hamas for suicide bombings for a very long time now, me being one of them. However many believe that what drives these individuals to do such heinous acts is Israel's human rights violations, and until that stops the violence will continue.

EDIT: To add it's extremely immoral to punish an entire population of people based on nationality because of the heinous acts of a small minority with in them. Hitler's holocaust is an example. Him and other Nazi's pointed to a few Jewish bankers who bailed on Germany in WWI. This was no excuse for group punishment of innocent civilians. International law and human rights must be at the forefront of any Israeli response.

[BFGUITAR]

Would education of the Palestinian people to not teach their children to blow themselves up constitute a human rights response?

[rdkraus]

This topic has gone way off the course of its original purpose, and is now about nationhood legitimacy and so on, so I won't reply to those who brought up such things.

The question at hand is why do/should Westerner's(assumed) care about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Well... Israel lobby influence is one of they most powerful influences in the US Government foriegn policy. Through there smear tactics, labeling of "anti-semitism", and faulty information, they have undermined US interests and even Israeli interests to further hard-line goals.

The Israel lobby encompasses many different types, notably the neoconservatives and/or christian-zionists. Through their tactics it is very hard to have open debate on Israeli policy, and US national interest is at stake by supporting Israel irregardless of its actions. They have repeatedly violated international law, and continually put Palestinians in the west bank in to an apartheid. Yet the US Government continues to give vast amounts of aid ($$$ and militarily) to Israel, which is paid out of your tax dollar.

All of these things combined sponsor terrorism, promote distrust of the west, and fuel anti-semitism throughout the middle east. By not having an even handed approach to the issue we lose on many accounts. Israel's existence is hardly at stake anymore given the current conditions of having a friendly Egypt and Jordan, with a weak Syria and a militia in Southern Lebanon compared to an extremely advanced IDF, with Nuclear weaponary and technology none of these countries could ever dream of (Thanks to Uncle Sam).

So in essence why should Americans care? Your tax dollars are going to a state which violates international law, commits crimes against humanity, and supports terrorism through its actions. And last but not least, a state that is based on its citizenry being of a certain ethnicity is extremely racist and against ALL American values.

*Side note: I'm not for the destruction of Israel, "pushing jews in to the sea", or anything of that nature. A right of return to Palestinians displaced forcefully in 1948, democratic elections, and either a complete withdrawal from the current occupied territories or a grant of citizenship to the Palestinians(voting rights, rights to serve in the military) would be my ideal conclusion.

Your "ideal conclusion" would destroy Isreal. You can't return to 1948. At that time outside forces (mostly Britain) imposed a situation in the middle east. The Jews accepted it. The Arabs were determined to push the Jews into the sea. Largely, nothing has changed since then about that. When the various arab states accept the Jews, and their right to have a state there, a "settlement" can be reached.

Even having said that, I'm against all foreign aid to Israel, and to all other countries. I don't think it is our gov'ts role to collect $$$ from US citizens and send them to other countries.

I think people pay attention to the middel east because:

1. Oil.
2. Religous, ethnic and family connections or associations.
3. That area is where most of the world's terrorists are coming from.
4. Radical Islam is a threat to free peoples everywhere. They are just
waking up to this in Europe. We haven't reached that point yet.

[CrazyK]

Your "ideal conclusion" would destroy Isreal. You can't return to 1948. At that time outside forces (mostly Britain) imposed a situation in the middle east. The Jews accepted it. The Arabs were determined to push the Jews into the sea. Largely, nothing has changed since then about that. When the various arab states accept the Jews, and their right to have a state there, a "settlement" can be reached.

Even having said that, I'm against all foreign aid to Israel, and to all other countries. I don't think it is our gov'ts role to collect $$$ from US citizens and send them to other countries.

I think people pay attention to the middel east because:

1. Oil.
2. Religous, ethnic and family connections or associations.
3. That area is where most of the world's terrorists are coming from.
4. Radical Islam is a threat to free peoples everywhere. They are just
waking up to this in Europe. We haven't reached that point yet.Actually look up some Israeli scholarship on the issue of 1948. Ben Gurion and his forces were determined on wiping away the Palestinians from the entirety of the British mandate. In fact in his memoirs he says that he should have done a better job at ethnically cleansing the entire area, even before 1948 this was the goal. This was cited by Benny Morris, a prominent Israeli scholar.

The Arab states do not constitute Palestinians and in no way did they engage in war with Israel in 1948 for moral reasons or to "push the Jews in to the sea". Jordan for instance had a chance to do this but opted to make a peace deal with the Israeli's instead in return for absolute control of what is now the West Bank and East Jerusalem. They all simply wanted a piece of the pie, the Palestinians suffered as a result. Again look at the Israeli scholarship on the issue.

[CrazyK]

Would education of the Palestinian people to not teach their children to blow themselves up constitute a human rights response?No. Following international law and taking the moral high ground would help alleviate many problems with terrorism.

Education has little to do with terrorist activities. The man who beheaded Richard Pearl (I believe was his name) in Pakistan was highly educated at the London School of Economics and went to elite secondary schools. Osama Bin Laden was also highly educated and well to do.

Anger, hopelessness, and feelings of injustice are what leads to terrorism of this nature. Take in to account school shootings in the USA, car bombings in London, or even the terrorist activities of the Stern Gang in Israel pre-1948 (Bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem). It's not some irrational, almost mentally challenged whim that causes people to do things like this. In the case of the Stern Gang incident many of the individual Jews involved were extremely intelligent scientists and bankers from Europe and the USA.

However, in my trip to Israel/Palestine I will be teaching children on the issue of politics, ethics, etc... I do plan on including a segment on terrorist activities and how Islamically it is absolutely wrong to engage in.

[rdkraus]

No. Following international law and taking the moral high ground would help alleviate many problems with terrorism.

Education has little to do with terrorist activities. The man who beheaded Richard Pearl (I believe was his name) in Pakistan was highly educated at the London School of Economics and went to elite secondary schools. Osama Bin Laden was also highly educated and well to do.

Anger, hopelessness, and feelings of injustice are what leads to terrorism of this nature. Take in to account school shootings in the USA, car bombings in London, or even the terrorist activities of the Stern Gang in Israel pre-1948 (Bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem). It's not some irrational, almost mentally challenged whim that causes people to do things like this. In the case of the Stern Gang incident many of the individual Jews involved were extremely intelligent scientists and bankers from Europe and the USA.

However, in my trip to Israel/Palestine I will be teaching children on the issue of politics, ethics, etc... I do plan on including a segment on terrorist activities and how Islamically it is absolutely wrong to engage in.

Ya keep citing this international law BS. Israel has made mistakes, but overall has acted with amazing restraint. They exist in an area of the world where, despite your naive view, their neighbors do indeed wish to kill them and destroy their state. They are dealing with people who live for the pleasure of blowing themselves up at Israeli weddings and bar mizvahs. The killing of a Jew is celebrated in the street. The children are brainwashed from early childhood to hate hate hate the Jews.

Good luck teaching them about how terroism is agaisnt their religion. And watch your back while you're doing it. While you're there, take a look at their maps, which don't include Israel.

Israelis agonize over actions which cause harm to Palestinians. Palestinians celebrate in the street when Jews are killed. Incidentally, there's no such thing as Palestinians - they just made that up. Another group of victims with their hands out. 1948 was ...... A LONG TIME AGO. Maybe they ought to accept that Israel is not willing to commit suicide, move out of "camps" and get on with living their lives in one of the many friendly arab countries which I sure would be happy to let them in.

Or they could stop blowing up Israeli women and children in Pizzarias, and stop lobbing bombs into Israel for a few years, and live in peace with Israel as neighbors. Instead, when given the choice, they ELECT terrorist organizations.

Ya gotta wake up Craz. Israel cannot make one mistake defensively. Because that would be the end of Israel.

[BFGUITAR]

No. Following international law and taking the moral high ground would help alleviate many problems with terrorism.

Education has little to do with terrorist activities. The man who beheaded Richard Pearl (I believe was his name) in Pakistan was highly educated at the London School of Economics and went to elite secondary schools. Osama Bin Laden was also highly educated and well to do.

Anger, hopelessness, and feelings of injustice are what leads to terrorism of this nature. Take in to account school shootings in the USA, car bombings in London, or even the terrorist activities of the Stern Gang in Israel pre-1948 (Bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem). It's not some irrational, almost mentally challenged whim that causes people to do things like this. In the case of the Stern Gang incident many of the individual Jews involved were extremely intelligent scientists and bankers from Europe and the USA.

However, in my trip to Israel/Palestine I will be teaching children on the issue of politics, ethics, etc... I do plan on including a segment on terrorist activities and how Islamically it is absolutely wrong to engage in.

Smart people don't strap bombs to themselves and blow people up. Smart people control stupid people to do that for them. Education is essential.

Injustice DOES lead to terrorism. But NOT suicide bombing. There is a massive difference between planting a bomb in the car of a government official and running in to a club and detonating a bomb on yourself. Intelligent people do NOT blow themselves up.

I don't see Osama strapping bombs to himself. He gets stupid people to do his dirty work.

[CrazyK]

Ya keep citing this international law BS. Israel has made mistakes, but overall has acted with amazing restraint. They exist in an area of the world where, despite your naive view, their neighbors do indeed wish to kill them and destroy their state. They are dealing with people who live for the pleasure of blowing themselves up at Israeli weddings and bar mizvahs. The killing of a Jew is celebrated in the street. The children are brainwashed from early childhood to hate hate hate the Jews. And the same can be said of how Israeli settler children are raised to hate-hate the Arabs. I can make an assumption here that I'd bet 99.99999% of Palestinian deaths in the last 30 years were not as a result of them commiting suicide via a bomb. I can also point to many acts of terrorism done by Israeli's to Palestinians. It is against international law to bulldoze homes of civilians and replace them with settlements. It's a human rights violation to imprison people indefinately without trial, conviction, and the like. It's terrorism when Baruch Goldstien goes inside a Mosque and shoots hundreds of Muslim worshippers. Israel(i's) have been guilty of all of these, so it's not a one sided issue.

Good luck teaching them about how terroism is agaisnt their religion. And watch your back while you're doing it. While you're there, take a look at their maps, which don't include Israel. Of course they don't. They have maps of their occupied territories.

Israelis agonize over actions which cause harm to Palestinians. Palestinians celebrate in the street when Jews are killed. Incidentally, there's no such thing as Palestinians - they just made that up. Another group of victims with their hands out. 1948 was ...... A LONG TIME AGO. Maybe they ought to accept that Israel is not willing to commit suicide, move out of "camps" and get on with living their lives in one of the many friendly arab countries which I sure would be happy to let them in. No such thing as Palestinians? In 1948 there were slightly more Palestinians living in the British mandate then Jews. Within 10 years the Palestinian population in the occupied territories and within Israel will outnumber Jews in the same area. Your point is not a case to deny statehood on moral equivalent grounds because Jews used the case of a former Israel thousands of years ago to promote their cause. While there are still hundreds of thousands of displaced Palestinians who were forcibly exiled by Haganah forces.

Or they could stop blowing up Israeli women and children in Pizzarias, and stop lobbing bombs into Israel for a few years, and live in peace with Israel as neighbors. Instead, when given the choice, they ELECT terrorist organizations. Of course. Desperate people commit to desperate measures. Give them their rights, and stop blatantly violating international law and things will calm down. It happened in so many conflicts around the world with very similar or even worse circumstances.

Ya gotta wake up Craz. Israel cannot make one mistake defensively. Because that would be the end of Israel. Silly. They will lose it demographically eventually, but this is the world we live in. American values are that of democracy, liberty, and justice. Not states based on racist agendas. Israel's policies scarely remind me of Nazi Germany, a state for a particular ethnicity who wants to ethnically cleanse its citizenry (from the start as cited by Benny Morris on Ben Gurion) of non-"elite" racially profiled individuals.Bolded.

[CrazyK]

Smart people don't strap bombs to themselves and blow people up. Smart people control stupid people to do that for them. Education is essential.

Injustice DOES lead to terrorism. But NOT suicide bombing. There is a massive difference between planting a bomb in the car of a government official and running in to a club and detonating a bomb on yourself. Intelligent people do NOT blow themselves up.

I don't see Osama strapping bombs to himself. He gets stupid people to do his dirty work.Almost all of the 9/11 hijackers were University educated and spoke numerous languages. Baruch Goldstien, an Israeli terrorist, was a medical professional when he shot down many Muslims in a Mosque in Hebron. These people do these horrendous things out of revenge, fear, mistrust, and hopelessness.

[BFGUITAR]

Crazy K of course there are crazies on both sides, no none is denying that. But there is a much greater percentage of Palestinians that want every Jewish person dead than vice versa.

[CrazyK]

Crazy K of course there are crazies on both sides, no none is denying that. But there is a much greater percentage of Palestinians that want every Jewish person dead than vice versa.Again look up Israeli settler violence, and opinions. Also try to find statistics on Palestinians that want Jewish people dead. I've never found anything peer reviewed on the topic, and I highly doubt they inherently want Jewish people dead. They want Israeli's who happen to be Jews out of their lives.

[BFGUITAR]

Again look up Israeli settler violence, and opinions. Also try to find statistics on Palestinians that want Jewish people dead. I've never found anything peer reviewed on the topic, and I highly doubt they inherently want Jewish people dead. They want Israeli's who happen to be Jews out of their lives.

That is a very naive view. Watch Palestinian TV and kids shows. Jews are portrayed as evil, not Israelis. They have catchy songs with lyrics not far off from "kill the jews" all made for kids.

Now you can say this is one example or one show... But first there are many shows like this that air. Second, NEVER will you see such propaganda on Israeli television. Never will you see a show teaching kids to kill Muslims or Palestinians.

[CrazyK]

That is a very naive view. Watch Palestinian TV and kids shows. Jews are portrayed as evil, not Israelis. They have catchy songs with lyrics not far off from "kill the jews" all made for kids.

Now you can say this is one example or one show... But first there are many shows like this that air. Second, NEVER will you see such propaganda on Israeli television. Never will you see a show teaching kids to kill Muslims or Palestinians.Like I've repeatedly said before, find me random sample polling of the Palestinian population at large that shows indefinately "Palestinians hate all Jews and want to see them die". Also read some Israeli, and American Israeli sympathizer cartoons, editorials, and the like. A lot of anti-Arab, and anti-Muslim propoganda.

[Organichu]

What part of the country do you plan to visit?

[CrazyK]

What part of the country do you plan to visit?Jerusalem and Bethleham. Visiting hospitals in both, providing volunteer financial services. The Jerusalem hospital is primarily Israeli-Jewish based, and the Bethleham one is purely Palestinian. Should be eye opening.

[method115]

Jerusalem and Bethleham. Visiting hospitals in both, providing volunteer financial services. The Jerusalem hospital is primarily Israeli-Jewish based, and the Bethleham one is purely Palestinian. Should be eye opening.

Sounds exciting I've always wanted to visit places around the world. I've been to dominican republic and mexico and thats it. I plant to travel more once I'm financially stable.

[BFGUITAR]

Jerusalem and Bethleham. Visiting hospitals in both, providing volunteer financial services. The Jerusalem hospital is primarily Israeli-Jewish based, and the Bethleham one is purely Palestinian. Should be eye opening.

I look forward to hearing stories.

[CrazyK]

Oh I will tell stories to all. You'll have to wait until the end of September though :(

Method,...traveling is wonderful. No international location I've ever been to is near to what I expected on the outset of the trip.

[method115]

Oh I will tell stories to all. You'll have to wait until the end of September though :(

Method,...traveling is wonderful. No international location I've ever been to is near to what I expected on the outset of the trip.

I can only imagine I love witnessing different cultures, it just catches my interest so much.

[Songsangnim]

Song...this is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

The topic is not about Israel violating international law. Read the thread title again. And it is entirely relevant. Other Arabs are openly criticizing the Palestinians for failing to either stop or condemn such violence


Israel violates international laws and until they stop groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and other anti-Israel factions will garner support. Almost all Arab and Muslim writers have condemned Hamas for suicide bombings for a very long time now, me being one of them. However many believe that what drives these individuals to do such heinous acts is Israel's human rights violations, and until that stops the violence will continue.

So strapping bombs to mentally disabled people is justified in any way? Two wrongs make a right? The more the bombings continue the harsher Israel's responses will be.

EDIT: To add it's extremely immoral to punish an entire population of people based on nationality because of the heinous acts of a small minority with in them. Hitler's holocaust is an example. Him and other Nazi's pointed to a few Jewish bankers who bailed on Germany in WWI. This was no excuse for group punishment of innocent civilians. International law and human rights must be at the forefront of any Israeli response.

If said population celebrates and supports the acts of the small minority then they are guilty by association. And when they start obeying international law and human rights, then the Israelis should too.

[Songsangnim]

Like I've repeatedly said before, find me random sample polling of the Palestinian population at large that shows indefinately "Palestinians hate all Jews and want to see them die". Also read some Israeli, and American Israeli sympathizer cartoons, editorials, and the like. A lot of anti-Arab, and anti-Muslim propoganda.


Simply Google "Palestinians poll on Israel" and you can find many polls which have a vast majority of Palestinians supporting bombings and armed violence. Here's a sample one.

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2004/p13epressrelease.html

While 83% want a mutual stop to the violence, 77% approve of bombing attacks, 64% approve of armed confrontation and only 59% would support measures to prevent attacks on Israel should violence cease...quite a drop from that 83% who claim they want peace.

Over 75% find 3 intifada practices acceptable such as continuing to fire rockets into Israel (to hit civilians) and "the liquidation of Palestinians accused of being Israeli spies"...no trial necessary apparently.

[Songsangnim]

Furthermore were the Palestinian cause so righteous and the Israelis such brutal occupiers, then certain news agencies wouldn't feel the need to "doctor" their pictures to make the Israelis look even worse as happened a while back.

[Organichu]

Jerusalem and Bethleham. Visiting hospitals in both, providing volunteer financial services. The Jerusalem hospital is primarily Israeli-Jewish based, and the Bethleham one is purely Palestinian. Should be eye opening.

Excellent. I don't like to give generic tourist recommendations (I think people who follow those recommendations lose out), so I prefer a bit more specificity- especially for someone interested in the conflict. When you find out exactly where you'll be (like, the neighborhood), give me a shout at Organichu@gmail.com

Do you speak any Arabic? This will play in Bethlehem and certain parts of Jerusalem. How do you plan to enter the WB? Is this done via a tour group or something?

I've volunteered at Al-Quds hospital in Gaza, though for a far more menial task (though one I found very rewarding). It should be a great experience for you, whether you find yourself in Israel proper or the Territories. I do recommend you do a little cross town traveling to get a feel for the disparate cultures and how some Arabs (since you seem to have an Arab background) have localized. It's really interesting stuff.

[CrazyK]

LOL leave it to the neocon to break the peace had in this thread between the Arabs and Jews just a few posts ago haha...

I'll respond to a few tidbits you said that might be worthwhile...I asked for polls about Palestinians wanting all Jews to die, not their armed resistance to occupation.

Everything else you completely missed the mark on. Especially about international laws lol. I mean just how you can think that a state that ratified the geneva conventions yet blatantly break the law is beyond me.

And group punishment for civilians because some poll showed conflicting evidence supporting that they want a stop to violence yet supported violent resistance? LOL. Invading on personal civil liberties is always wrong, especially when it's done because of your nationality/ethinicity/race.

[nhlfan]

Now you can say this is one example or one show... But first there are many shows like this that air. Second, NEVER will you see such propaganda on Israeli television. Never will you see a show teaching kids to kill Muslims or Palestinians.

Israel has mandatory military service after graduation from high school, who needs TV?

[CrazyK]

Excellent. I don't like to give generic tourist recommendations (I think people who follow those recommendations lose out), so I prefer a bit more specificity- especially for someone interested in the conflict. When you find out exactly where you'll be (like, the neighborhood), give me a shout at Organichu@gmail.com I will certainly e-mail you when the time gets closer. But I can tell you now that its Basr childrens hospital.
Do you speak any Arabic? This will play in Bethlehem and certain parts of Jerusalem. How do you plan to enter the WB? Is this done via a tour group or something? Yes I speak Arabic, and I was awaiting further instruction on getting in to the WB. Any tips as to how to go about that? I'm a born and raised US citizen if that helps.
I've volunteered at Al-Quds hospital in Gaza, though for a far more menial task (though one I found very rewarding). It should be a great experience for you, whether you find yourself in Israel proper or the Territories. I do recommend you do a little cross town traveling to get a feel for the disparate cultures and how some Arabs (since you seem to have an Arab background) have localized. It's really interesting stuff. Certainly and thanks again. I imagine I'll have more respect for both sides after this. Bolded and appreciated!

[BFGUITAR]

LOL leave it to the neocon to break the peace had in this thread between the Arabs and Jews just a few posts ago haha...

I'll respond to a few tidbits you said that might be worthwhile...I asked for polls about Palestinians wanting all Jews to die, not their armed resistance to occupation.

Everything else you completely missed the mark on. Especially about international laws lol. I mean just how you can think that a state that ratified the geneva conventions yet blatantly break the law is beyond me.

And group punishment for civilians because some poll showed conflicting evidence supporting that they want a stop to violence yet supported violent resistance? LOL. Invading on personal civil liberties is always wrong, especially when it's done because of your nationality/ethinicity/race.

You haven't given me polls about Jewish settlements.

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part3.html

This is the type of propaganda sickens me (especially Kill all the Jews - Words of Palestinian Teenager on TV). You talk about international laws and injustice yet fail to mention things such as this? You expect Israel to deal with people like this? They aren't afraid to die, how can you rationalize with people who want to commit suicide not for politics, but for religion? I have not met one Jewish person in my life to ever talk or think this way.

If this was broad casted in the U.S people would be going to jail. You mentioned before that you would give full right to Palestinians if they were in the U.S. Well if they were making videos about blowing up U.S soldiers not only would it be unaired, but people will go to jail no questions asked.

[azma]

I fail to see how the Iranian passport has any legimicacy in this argument. And if you were referencing a text you should cite the source...otherwise people are going to think it's your ideas. And yes, I'm "chill"..I have the A/C going full blast.

I wasn't referencing a text. It's common knowledge that Israel's Muslim neighbors think Palestine has a claim to legitimacy -- regardless of what you or I think. You said that my claim was warrantless, and I sourced it in response.

...Also, if you want to take condescending shots at my diction, come up to MIT and do it to my face, Mr. "Legimicacy!" Bring beer, if you will.

:disagree:


http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part3.html

This is the type of propaganda sickens me (especially Kill all the Jews - Words of Palestinian Teenager on TV). Me too! There are tons of crazies on both sides! You talk about international laws and injustice yet fail to mention things such as this? You expect Israel to deal with people like this? They aren't afraid to die, how can you rationalize with people who want to commit suicide not for politics, but for religion? You're making the fundamental error of treating the Palestinians as irrational and unhuman. Ironically, by saying "we can't rationalize with these people," Israel makes itself harder to rationalize with. I have not met one Jewish person in my life to ever talk or think this way. Have you met a Palestinian who talks or thinks that way? No, you saw it on an Israeli propaganda website. Guess what, there are hardliners on both sides, and there are peace-seekers on both sides. It's irrelevant if one guy finds a video of Palestinians doing bad things or the other finds an article about innocent people killed by Israelis.


Me.

[Songsangnim]

I wasn't referencing a text. It's common knowledge that Israel's Muslim neighbors think Palestine has a claim to legitimacy -- regardless of what you or I think. You said that my claim was warrantless, and I sourced it in response.

Hate to break it to you, but "Israel's Muslim neighbors" are not the last words of authority on the subject. Palestine was never a state, period. That is a historical fact and can not be argued with.

...Also, if you want to take condescending shots at my diction, come up to MIT and do it to my face, Mr. "Legimicacy!" Bring beer, if you will.

:disagree:

Nobody was taking shots at your diction, condescending or otherwise. I was merely attempting to inject some levity into the situation. And taking condescending shots at a typo is the last refuge of someone who's been proved wrong on the facts of the argument. I believe you're better than that.

P.S. I like beer...but it's got to be Heineken.

[Songsangnim]

LOL leave it to the neocon to break the peace had in this thread between the Arabs and Jews just a few posts ago haha...

Who is this "neocon" you speak of?

I'll respond to a few tidbits you said that might be worthwhile...I asked for polls about Palestinians wanting all Jews to die, not their armed resistance to occupation.

You don't think that 77% supporting the firing of rockets into Israel where it can hit civilians is not wanting Jews to die?

Everything else you completely missed the mark on. Especially about international laws lol. I mean just how you can think that a state that ratified the geneva conventions yet blatantly break the law is beyond me.

Only it's not. It is defending itself. As long as the Palestinians behave Israel pretty much lets them alone.

And group punishment for civilians because some poll showed conflicting evidence supporting that they want a stop to violence yet supported violent resistance? LOL. Invading on personal civil liberties is always wrong, especially when it's done because of your nationality/ethinicity/race.

And sending missiles to attack civilians instead of the army is terrorism. That's even worse.

[Fuzzy]

The Israelis are horrible, the Palestinians ar evil.

yap yap yap yap... why the hell is this thread still going on. All that happens is the same blaming on boths sides.

[CrazyK]

You haven't given me polls about Jewish settlements. I never made claims that a certain % of them hate Arabs or the like. Just that there are extremists from them. Some go to Baruch Goldstiens gravesite every year and pray for a reoccurence of what he did.

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part3.html

This is the type of propaganda sickens me (especially Kill all the Jews - Words of Palestinian Teenager on TV). You talk about international laws and injustice yet fail to mention things such as this? You expect Israel to deal with people like this? They aren't afraid to die, how can you rationalize with people who want to commit suicide not for politics, but for religion? I have not met one Jewish person in my life to ever talk or think this way. It is sick. It's also a consequence of the occupation. Israel can resolve a lot of this anger by acting in a just, humane manner by following international laws.
If this was broad casted in the U.S people would be going to jail. You mentioned before that you would give full right to Palestinians if they were in the U.S. Well if they were making videos about blowing up U.S soldiers not only would it be unaired, but people will go to jail no questions asked. Not nessacarily. In the USA there are plenty of videos sponsered by the KKK and neo-nazi's claiming a race war should start and the elimination of Blacks, Hispanics, Jews, and Catholics be a must. However it is sick, but I can find plenty of videos of Israeli terrorist sponsors, and also the record of Ariel Sharon *who Israeli's voted in to office* literally slaughtering Palestinians in Lebanon. It's a sickening cycle of violence no matter which way one puts it.

[CrazyK]

And sending missiles to attack civilians instead of the army is terrorism. That's even worse.Hezbollah can't even target their missiles. They just fire and hope it makes it across the border. I don't really see them of having any other option for defense except to just scatter bomb and pray.

The neocon I speak of is you. If I'm wrong about that then I'm wrong, but your views and defenses are parrallel to neoconservative ideology.

They can hit civilians or military installations, but they don't have the option to really target it anywhere. However Israel did target civilian apartment building in that same war. In fact they hit a red cross ambulance right on target. Their excuse of saying that Hezbollah was in these apartments is sickening as they ended up killing almost solely civilians in these raids.

Just war theory....look it up. Israel can not defend itself by breaking international laws it ratified. This is illegal. Building settlements over Palestinian houses they bulldozed is illegal.

[BFGUITAR]

The Israelis are horrible, the Palestinians ar evil.

yap yap yap yap... why the hell is this thread still going on. All that happens is the same blaming on boths sides.

Would you rather everyone forget about the problem. As futile as everything seems, talking about the problem might lead to a solution.

[BFGUITAR]

Hezbollah can't even target their missiles. They just fire and hope it makes it across the border. I don't really see them of having any other option for defense except to just scatter bomb and pray. Defend against what?

The neocon I speak of is you. If I'm wrong about that then I'm wrong, but your views and defenses are parrallel to neoconservative ideology.

They can hit civilians or military installations, but they don't have the option to really target it anywhere. However Israel did target civilian apartment building in that same war. In fact they hit a red cross ambulance right on target. Their excuse of saying that Hezbollah was in these apartments is sickening as they ended up killing almost solely civilians in these raids.

Just war theory....look it up. Israel can not defend itself by breaking international laws it ratified. This is illegal. Building settlements over Palestinian houses they bulldozed is illegal.

If a soldier is hiding in a building with civilians it becomes a military target. Why should Israel be blamed if they are attacking Hezbollah? It's up to the civilian population to say "Get the ***** out of my house" or at least get out of the area. They can't stick around and support Hezbollah as civilians but when the bombs start dropping cry. Hezbollah should be blamed for using civilian buildings as their hideouts. This is similar to what happened to the second temple. Jews were hiding in it and using it as a bunker. The Romans had a law that states that religious institutions cannot destroyed. But now we have Jews hiding and fighting from the temple. It is no longer a temple but a target.

I know for a fact, that innocent civilians have died in those air raids. There is no question about it. But this is war. Hundreds of rockets were coming across the border in to Israel. Would there have been a better course of action?

On top of all this, The U.S. and the G8 have declared Hezbollah to be a non-state actor and therefore not entitled to the same rights and range of legitimate actions as Israel.

[Reko]

It's up to the civilian population to say "Get the ***** out of my house" or at least get out of the area.

Maybe they don't have a right to do so? We needed a constitutional amendment to prevent soldier quartering in peacetime. What the rules/laws are here regarding war time or over there I haven't the slightest clue though.

[BilltheButcher]

This is played on Palestinian TV 24 hrs a day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65v8Bcrzisc

[CrazyK]

If a soldier is hiding in a building with civilians it becomes a military target. Why should Israel be blamed if they are attacking Hezbollah? It's up to the civilian population to say "Get the ***** out of my house" or at least get out of the area. They can't stick around and support Hezbollah as civilians but when the bombs start dropping cry. Hezbollah should be blamed for using civilian buildings as their hideouts. This is similar to what happened to the second temple. Jews were hiding in it and using it as a bunker. The Romans had a law that states that religious institutions cannot destroyed. But now we have Jews hiding and fighting from the temple. It is no longer a temple but a target. Like Reko pointed out, this is irrelevant. Civilians might not have a choice, I've never seen definate evidence showing Hezbollah was hiding out in the Ambulances or apartment buildings they hit. In fact the evidence points the other direction as almost all killed were civilians.
I know for a fact, that innocent civilians have died in those air raids. There is no question about it. But this is war. Hundreds of rockets were coming across the border in to Israel. Would there have been a better course of action? Absolutely...not targeting apartment buildings and ambulances would signifigantly reduce the impact to civilian casualties. Almost the entire world spoke out against these attacks, and mounted pressure for Israel to stop.

On top of all this, The U.S. and the G8 have declared Hezbollah to be a non-state actor and therefore not entitled to the same rights and range of legitimate actions as Israel. Civilians are always given the rights of just war theory. One can not ever target civilians intentionally, which Israel did. Defending themselves from the Israeli invasion in 2006. Israel subsequently lost that war fyi.

[CrazyK]

This is played on Palestinian TV 24 hrs a day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65v8BcrziscLOL. It's also on a lot of US television too :P

[CrazyK]

30% of civilian casualties in Lebanon were children aged 13 and under
http://www.unicef.org/emerg/index_35274.html

A Human Rights Watch report found that most of the civilian deaths in Lebanon resulted from "indiscriminate Israeli airstrikes," and found that Israeli aircraft targeted vehicles carrying fleeing civilians.

That just turns my stomach.

[Brawl]

Here is a cool site to look through ... see the mistakes they both are guilty of .

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/

[Brawl]

30% of civilian casualties in Lebanon were children aged 13 and under
http://www.unicef.org/emerg/index_35274.html

A Human Rights Watch report found that most of the civilian deaths in Lebanon resulted from "indiscriminate Israeli airstrikes," and found that Israeli aircraft targeted vehicles carrying fleeing civilians.

That just turns my stomach.

I agree because the labanese and palestinians NEVER target civilians .

[CrazyK]

I agree because the labanese and palestinians NEVER target civilians .Hezbollah didn't have the technology to specifically target civilians even if they wanted to. Palestine does not have a military.

[Brawl]

Hezbollah didn't have the technology to specifically target civilians even if they wanted to. Palestine does not have a military.

Bro , I'm done posting to your stupid a$$ opinions . I really cant take it with your blinders ...

I'll try think who is suicide bombing the crap out of busses and coffee shops full of civilians , men women and children .

Hezbollah and the palestinians didnt say " Hey Israel , lets meet on this field and fight ." No they are fighting and hiding among they're own women and children , so guess what , they are going to get their s h *t blown up .

[azma]

Bro , I'm done posting to your stupid a$$ opinions . I really cant take it with your blinders ...

I'll try think who is suicide bombing the crap out of busses and coffee shops full of civilians , men women and children .

Hezbollah and the palestinians didnt say " Hey Israel , lets meet on this field and fight ." No they are fighting and hiding among they're own women and children , so guess what , they are going to get their s h *t blown up .

Riddle me THIS, Brawl: why did Israel kill this unarmed 18-year-old kid during a truce? Do you believe their story about how he ignored warning shots? And why didn't they try to apprehend him?

http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/newsmlmmd.6a3a91949c0aec7f22f73e0c73e5da9f.6e1.html

When was the last time anyone said "hey, let's meet on this field and fight?" And since when is it legitimate for a US-backed government to drop bombs in neighborhoods because they suspect militants to be hiding there? Also, why do you sound so violent?

[CrazyK]

Bro , I'm done posting to your stupid a$$ opinions . I really cant take it with your blinders ...

I'll try think who is suicide bombing the crap out of busses and coffee shops full of civilians , men women and children .

Hezbollah and the palestinians didnt say " Hey Israel , lets meet on this field and fight ." No they are fighting and hiding among they're own women and children , so guess what , they are going to get their s h *t blown up .I pointed out two facts, neither of these were my opinion.

Israel commited indiscriminate bombing of civilians according to the HRW report. Meaning they literally had no military intelligence or target, just firing missiles in to buildings and medical installations/vehicles.

The Palestinians do not have a military, all terrorist activities are commited by bands of individuals and therefore should be delt with as such. Not as group punishment for a mass of people based on ethnicity and geographic location. It's truly Nazi in nature.

[Brawl]

Riddle me THIS, Brawl: why did Israel kill this unarmed 18-year-old kid during a truce? Do you believe their story about how he ignored warning shots? And why didn't they try to apprehend him?

http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/newsmlmmd.6a3a91949c0aec7f22f73e0c73e5da9f.6e1.html

When was the last time anyone said "hey, let's meet on this field and fight?" And since when is it legitimate for a US-backed government to drop bombs in neighborhoods because they suspect militants to be hiding there? Also, why do you sound so violent?

Listen to me my lib friend ... never did I say israel didnt target civilians . They BOTH have . They are BOTH guilty .

For CrazyK to say only israel has targeted civilians is at best intellectually dishonest . They elected a terrorist organization into power . How stupid can they be .

You make it sound like a small handful of people are running around TPing houses while Israel is machine gunning day care centers .

Give me a break .

[CrazyK]

I never said Palestinian groups did not target civilians, and I never said Hezbollah did not target civilians either. I said that the Palestinian groups do not represent a military and act independent of the population. I also said that Hezbollah couldn't target civilians if it wanted to via missile strikes because they did not have the technology to do so.

Israel does however have a national military and does have the technology to pinpoint exactly what they hit. It was proven that they hit apartment buildings, medical vehicles and civilians intentionally, with no cause to believe that Hezbollah operatives were operating there.

[Songsangnim]

I never said Palestinian groups did not target civilians, and I never said Hezbollah did not target civilians either. I said that the Palestinian groups do not represent a military and act independent of the population. I also said that Hezbollah couldn't target civilians if it wanted to via missile strikes because they did not have the technology to do so.

Israel does however have a national military and does have the technology to pinpoint exactly what they hit. It was proven that they hit apartment buildings, medical vehicles and civilians intentionally, with no cause to believe that Hezbollah operatives were operating there.


Such was not proven.

And at least Israel does not use child suicide bombers. Sending your own children to die and blow up others...now THAT'S stomach turning.

[azma]

Listen to me my lib friend ... never did I say israel didnt target civilians . They BOTH have . They are BOTH guilty .

For CrazyK to say only israel has targeted civilians is at best intellectually dishonest . They elected a terrorist organization into power . How stupid can they be .

You make it sound like a small handful of people are running around TPing houses while Israel is machine gunning day care centers .

Give me a break .

Israel is machine-gunning daycare centers?!? STOP THE PRESSES, THIS IS HUGE!

(Some would argue that we Americans elected terrorists into power, too. Before you call me unpatriotic, look to Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, and the whole Iraq invasion, for that matter.)

[CrazyK]

Such was not proven. Read the HRW and Amnesty International Reports. I cited one earlier in this thread.

And at least Israel does not use child suicide bombers. Sending your own children to die and blow up others...now THAT'S stomach turning. There is no Palestinian military, therefore I don't see how twisted individuals represent the population or nation at bay?
................

[BFGUITAR]

Hezbollah didn't have the technology to specifically target civilians even if they wanted to. Palestine does not have a military.

Man come on your better than this. Killing civilians on one side is justified because they don't have the technology but when civilians on the other side die because of suspected Hezbollah activity (which neither you nor I can prove), a group that has been looked down upon by the G8 is horrible and wrong?

On top of all this, the civilian casualties on the Lebanese side... you could make the argument that the target was not them but rather Hezbollah. This cannot be said for the other side.

I really had more respect for you as our discussions have been insightful but justifying the attacks on Israeli civilians as "they can't aim" doesn't make for good argument. Especially when the reciprocated attack isn't nearly as random yet you condemn it even more. I am sure you can understand my point here.

[BFGUITAR]

"There is no Palestinian military, therefore I don't see how twisted individuals represent the population or nation at bay?"

Clearly the fact that this is happening shows that even if the majority think one way, there is still a significant population that think the other and will cause problems for both sides. Being able to weed through this mess is difficult as suicide bombers are every day people, no soldiers. As sad as it is, the Palestinian people suffer because of a select group of people. A group small enough to be hard to fight, yet large enough to cause major problems. If Israel loosens their grip, Israeli's die. If they tighten their grip, both sides die while at the same time applying pressure to Palestinians to stop these individuals.

[BFGUITAR]

"Like Reko pointed out, this is irrelevant. Civilians might not have a choice, I've never seen definate evidence showing Hezbollah was hiding out in the Ambulances or apartment buildings they hit. In fact the evidence points the other direction as almost all killed were civilians."

I personally don't have this information. But would it make a difference to you?

"Absolutely...not targeting apartment buildings and ambulances would signifigantly reduce the impact to civilian casualties. Almost the entire world spoke out against these attacks, and mounted pressure for Israel to stop."

The entire world also spoke out against Hezbollah and urged Lebanon to disband Hezbollah. And a hospital with a soldier shooting out from it is no different than a bunker. I wouldn't think twice about bombing a hospital if there were people shooting out of it. Would I feel for the innocent people who would die? Of course. Who's to be blamed in a situation like this? And if reference to another post... you said that Israel would bomb buildings that had no reason to be a military target. Do you have definite proof of this? Can you prove that the building didn't house Hezbollah? And if it did, why would they say there were to the public after the fact? You see this can go both ways. In the end we are choosing sides it seems. But one fact is true that Israel did try to take out Hezbollah (Why would they waste a good bomb on civilians? Which is not only immoral bust a waste of recourses) while Hezbollah didn't care who they hit (which someone how you can justify more).

[CrazyK]

Man come on your better than this. Killing civilians on one side is justified because they don't have the technology but when civilians on the other side die because of suspected Hezbollah activity (which neither you nor I can prove), a group that has been looked down upon by the G8 is horrible and wrong?

On top of all this, the civilian casualties on the Lebanese side... you could make the argument that the target was not them but rather Hezbollah. This cannot be said for the other side.

I really had more respect for you as our discussions have been insightful but justifying the attacks on Israeli civilians as "they can't aim" doesn't make for good argument. Especially when the reciprocated attack isn't nearly as random yet you condemn it even more. I am sure you can understand my point here.I never condoned the indiscriminate firing of missiles in to Israel. However I wanted to point out that while Hezbollah had no means of aiming, Israel did. Israel used this to intentionally hit targets that had no evidence of bearing Hezbollah soldiers. I cited this earlier from Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. Intentionally targeting civilians is against international law and Israel broke that law.

[CrazyK]

"There is no Palestinian military, therefore I don't see how twisted individuals represent the population or nation at bay?"

Clearly the fact that this is happening shows that even if the majority think one way, there is still a significant population that think the other and will cause problems for both sides. Being able to weed through this mess is difficult as suicide bombers are every day people, no soldiers. As sad as it is, the Palestinian people suffer because of a select group of people. A group small enough to be hard to fight, yet large enough to cause major problems. If Israel loosens their grip, Israeli's die. If they tighten their grip, both sides die while at the same time applying pressure to Palestinians to stop these individuals.The problem lies when because of the acts of a very small minority the vast majority is group punished. The ways Israel goes about doing this is against international laws, such as bulldozing homes and the like. If Israel works toward not responding via group punishment, things will improve. Tightening their group only produces more fanatics, for every innocent Palestinian one kills, there are 3 more people motivated to suicide bomb.

[CrazyK]

"Like Reko pointed out, this is irrelevant. Civilians might not have a choice, I've never seen definate evidence showing Hezbollah was hiding out in the Ambulances or apartment buildings they hit. In fact the evidence points the other direction as almost all killed were civilians."

I personally don't have this information. But would it make a difference to you? I showed the information. It pointed out that Israel targeted civilians.

"Absolutely...not targeting apartment buildings and ambulances would signifigantly reduce the impact to civilian casualties. Almost the entire world spoke out against these attacks, and mounted pressure for Israel to stop."

The entire world also spoke out against Hezbollah and urged Lebanon to disband Hezbollah. And a hospital with a soldier shooting out from it is no different than a bunker. I wouldn't think twice about bombing a hospital if there were people shooting out of it. Would I feel for the innocent people who would die? Of course. Who's to be blamed in a situation like this? And if reference to another post... you said that Israel would bomb buildings that had no reason to be a military target. Do you have definite proof of this? Can you prove that the building didn't house Hezbollah? And if it did, why would they say there were to the public after the fact? You see this can go both ways. In the end we are choosing sides it seems. But one fact is true that Israel did try to take out Hezbollah (Why would they waste a good bomb on civilians? Which is not only immoral bust a waste of recourses) while Hezbollah didn't care who they hit (which someone how you can justify more). It's not really wasting a bomb. It's brutal form of coercion. Start slaughtering women and children and possibly the Hezbollah forces would surrender/cease fire. That's the logic as sickening as it is. Israel has consistently violated international law and world opinion has started to turn against them as these violations are being made public (thank you internet). US-Israel lobbying groups keep the US Government in check as to foriegn policy toward Israel. This will change in due time, but for now this is the situation. Your American tax dollars go to pay for many of these war crimes, so be concerned.

[BFGUITAR]

I never condoned the indiscriminate firing of missiles in to Israel. However I wanted to point out that while Hezbollah had no means of aiming, Israel did. Israel used this to intentionally hit targets that had no evidence of bearing Hezbollah soldiers. I cited this earlier from Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. Intentionally targeting civilians is against international law and Israel broke that law.

I am curious how Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International has better intel on such things than Israel. Where are their sources coming from?

Yes, Hezbollah has broken that law. Missiles were flying in to Israel well before missiles were flying in to Lebanon in this war.

[BFGUITAR]

The problem lies when because of the acts of a very small minority the vast majority is group punished. The ways Israel goes about doing this is against international laws, such as bulldozing homes and the like. If Israel works toward not responding via group punishment, things will improve. Tightening their group only produces more fanatics, for every innocent Palestinian one kills, there are 3 more people motivated to suicide bomb.

If Israel were to suddenly loosen their grip and allow Palestinians full access to the country do you think there would be less or more subsequent bombings?

And does the Palestinian even need to be innocent to motivate 3 more?

BTW one of the pics in the link you sent was photo shopped to look worse than it actually is. I remember it was on the news.

[Songsangnim]

BTW one of the pics in the link you sent was photo shopped to look worse than it actually is. I remember it was on the news.

Not just one. Dozens of photos were doctored along with accompanying stories to make the Israelis look worse...one wonders if such claims about Israeli brutality were true why would people bother?

http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/015118.php


But I guess it's all a neocon plot...

[Fuzzy]

Defending themselves from the Israeli invasion in 2006. Israel subsequently lost that war fyi.

Hezbollah fighters are ****ing nutters man. These guys are just hardcore.

[bjohnso]

Why would Israel intentionally blow up civilians when world opinion of them already sucks so much? Are they stupid?

[CrazyK]

If Israel were to suddenly loosen their grip and allow Palestinians full access to the country do you think there would be less or more subsequent bombings?

And does the Palestinian even need to be innocent to motivate 3 more?

BTW one of the pics in the link you sent was photo shopped to look worse than it actually is. I remember it was on the news.I never gave an endorsement of allowing full access. Give them their rights, let them establish a country free of settlements, curfews, road blockages...and give the Palestinians who were forcibly displaced in 1948 a right of return. This would alleviate a lot of hostility. Over generations the anger would subside and things will calm down. Look at conflicts such as Ireland-UK, Libya-Italy, and South African apartheid for reference.

[CrazyK]

Why would Israel intentionally blow up civilians when world opinion of them already sucks so much? Are they stupid?US policy maker opinion does not suck so much, reasoning being the Israeli lobby. They exhibit extraordinary control of foriegn policy making in the USA. This is the only opinion that they truly care about.

If one does not believe in the power of factions and lobbyist groups I suggest one reads James Madison's federalist paper #10, and "The Israel Lobby", a book written by two Harvard law professors. Very good, unbiased analysis.

[bjohnso]

US policy maker opinion does not suck so much, reasoning being the Israeli lobby. They exhibit extraordinary control of foriegn policy making in the USA. This is the only opinion that they truly care about.

If one does not believe in the power of factions and lobbyist groups I suggest one reads James Madison's federalist paper #10, and "The Israel Lobby", a book written by two Harvard law professors. Very good, unbiased analysis.

Not caring about world opinion (other than the U.S.) is one thing, intentionally making it worse is another. I keep hearing about how Israel loves blowing up non-combatants, but everyone is missing a little thing called motive. What is their motive for doing that?

And I would argue that they do care very much about world opinion. Why would they not finish of Hezbollah if they didn't care? They certainly weren't taking heavy casualties.

[Songsangnim]

I never gave an endorsement of allowing full access. Give them their rights, let them establish a country free of settlements, curfews, road blockages...and give the Palestinians who were forcibly displaced in 1948 a right of return. This would alleviate a lot of hostility. Over generations the anger would subside and things will calm down. Look at conflicts such as Ireland-UK, Libya-Italy, and South African apartheid for reference.


As regards the right of return how many of these people are still living...that was 60 years ago.

[CrazyK]

Not caring about world opinion (other than the U.S.) is one thing, intentionally making it worse is another. I keep hearing about how Israel loves blowing up non-combatants, but everyone is missing a little thing called motive. What is their motive for doing that? I addressed motive in a previous post. It's a brutal form of coercion. It's inhumane, it's against international law, but they believe it works. Israel consistently does this, not only by "blowing them up" but by bulldozing homes, setting curfews, and other terrorist sponsoring activities to the general population. This is all well documented.

And I would argue that they do care very much about world opinion. Why would they not finish of Hezbollah if they didn't care? They certainly weren't taking heavy casualties.Finishing off Hezbollah was going to be an extremely difficult task for the IDF. Hezbollah was a well trained force in guerilla warfare. Offensively they can do little harm but defensively they can fight a war of attrition for many-many years. Again refer to history,...current war in Iraq, Afghan-Soviet war, Vietnam-USA...

[CrazyK]

As regards the right of return how many of these people are still living...that was 60 years ago.Not many, but also any displaced forcibly since 1948. At this point it really would be symbolic. However forms of compensation should be given to those sons and daughters of the one's displaced where they parents are no longer living, yet their family land was confiscated. Such an example would be a boy born in 1950 in a refugee camp, who's parents were living in what is now Israel but were forcibly removed and those parents are deceased. This has been proposed before, accepted by most of the EU, Middle East and Asia, rejected by Israel and the USA.

[Fuzzy]

Not caring about world opinion (other than the U.S.) is one thing, intentionally making it worse is another. I keep hearing about how Israel loves blowing up non-combatants, but everyone is missing a little thing called motive. What is their motive for doing that?

And I would argue that they do care very much about world opinion. Why would they not finish of Hezbollah if they didn't care? They certainly weren't taking heavy casualties.

My sister was killed by an Israeli bomber in 2006 which hit a CHRISITAN CIVILIAN AREA.

However, I find it funny that people think Israel can 'just finish off hezbollah' Have you met a hezbollah militant? Have you seen them train? Even Israel's best troops armed as they are can not seriously challenge Hezbollah mountain fighters in their home withotu consider numerical advantage.

Finishing hezbollah would not be as simple as 'bomb them to bits' It would require a massive effort from Israel. Hezbollah mountain fighters know every single passage, hiding place and their considerable armoury housed in the mountains would supply them with enough to cause a large mauling to Israeli forces.

If Israel could just waltz into Southern Lebanon and eliminate Hezbollah, Im sure they would, but you have no idea what fanatical fighting capability is worth in those mountains.

[Organichu]

Sorry it took me so long to respond to your inquiry, CrazyK.

Do you have a Palestinian Authority identification number? If so you may not be able to enter the WB through Israel (and may be stuck at Ben Gurion). I believe you have to use the Allenby crossing transiting from Jordan to the WB.

If you're entering simply as an American on a humanitarian cause I'm not sure of the exact procedure. For me as an Israeli citizen it is different. Just how close are your ties to the Palestinian community? Be aware that security and background checks can be absolutely fearsome. If authorities consider you to be too closely tied to the community they may deport you from Israel and insist you obtain PA traveling documentation. If you are not considered Palestinian then you will need to demonstrate (possibly after landing at Ben Gurion) your purpose in the crossing as an American citizen. I am honestly not sure how strict/lenient they are in this capacity.

[Songsangnim]

Not many, but also any displaced forcibly since 1948. At this point it really would be symbolic. However forms of compensation should be given to those sons and daughters of the one's displaced where they parents are no longer living, yet their family land was confiscated. Such an example would be a boy born in 1950 in a refugee camp, who's parents were living in what is now Israel but were forcibly removed and those parents are deceased. This has been proposed before, accepted by most of the EU, Middle East and Asia, rejected by Israel and the USA.


Not surprisingly. How would such a person go about proving his claims to the land? And what would stop people with no claims at all from faking them?

After 60 years most documentation would be lost or destroyed...a refugee camp is not a good place for such things.

[bjohnso]

Finishing off Hezbollah was going to be an extremely difficult task for the IDF. Hezbollah was a well trained force in guerilla warfare. Offensively they can do little harm but defensively they can fight a war of attrition for many-many years. Again refer to history,...current war in Iraq, Afghan-Soviet war, Vietnam-USA...

I thought retrieving the two kidnapped soldiers was the goal, not defeating hezbollah. So Israel lobs millions of dollars in guided weapons into civilian areas not because they think hezbollah is hiding their, but for kicks and giggles?

[blackboard]

I thought retrieving the two kidnapped soldiers was the goal, not defeating hezbollah. So Israel lobs millions of dollars in guided weapons into civilian areas not because they think hezbollah is hiding their, but for kicks and giggles?

It wouldn't be a shocker. If you reverse the situation and Hezbollah was doing Israels bombing, I have no doubt Israel would probably be threatening total destruction . Israel Military was almost an embarrassment during the conflict so no better way to make up your losses by bombing civilian targets whenever 1 Hezbollah fighter is believe to be in the area.

[bjohnso]

It wouldn't be a shocker. If you reverse the situation and Hezbollah was doing Israels bombing, I have no doubt Israel would probably be threatening total destruction . Israel Military was almost an embarrassment during the conflict so no better way to make up your losses by bombing civilian targets whenever 1 Hezbollah fighter is believe to be in the area.

What do you mean the Israeli Military was an embarrassment?

[blackboard]

What do you mean the Israeli Military was an embarrassment?

Israel High tech billion dollar army was battled to basically a draw from Iranian trained Guerrillas. Every week I kept hearing about Israel staging a big offense to take out Hezbollah but it never happen. The only thing Israel destroyed during the conflict was civilian property, troop morale and confidence.

[bjohnso]

Israel High tech billion dollar army was battled to basically a draw from Iranian trained Guerrillas. Every week I kept hearing about Israel staging a big offense to take out Hezbollah but it never happen. The only thing Israel destroyed during the conflict was civilian property, troop morale and confidence.

I don't remember any of that. All I remember is Israel blowing a lot of **** up (yes, including civilians), Hezbollah firing mortars and rockets from schools and apartment buildings (and subsequently getting blown up), green helmet guy doing photo tours with cadavers, extensive (and poorly done) photoshopping by Reuters and the AFP, and last but not least Nasrallah saying something to the effect of he wished he would not have pissed off Israel after the fact because he was not expecting to get trounced that bad.

[blackboard]

I don't remember any of that. All I remember is Israel blowing a lot of **** up (yes, including civilians), Hezbollah firing mortars and rockets from schools and apartment buildings (and subsequently getting blown up), green helmet guy doing photo tours with cadavers, extensive (and poorly done) photoshopping by Reuters and the AFP, and last but not least Nasrallah saying something to the effect of he wished he would not have pissed off Israel after the fact because he was not expecting to get trounced that bad.

Nasrallah was sad because Israel basically destroyed the country. Hezbollah didn't come close to getting trounced. Matter of Fact Hezbollah came out on top because it made Israel high Tech Army look weak.

[bjohnso]

Nasrallah was sad because Israel basically destroyed the country. Hezbollah didn't come close to getting trounced. Matter of Fact Hezbollah came out on top because it made Israel high Tech Army look weak.

Yeah, whose fault was that?

Olmert was an idiot for pulling out before recovering the two soldiers. To say that hezbollah did not get utterly ****ed in the bum during that conflict is laughable. It still is technically a loss for Israel I guess, seeing as how they went through all that trouble and didn't even get a lousy T-shirt as far as I know.

[blackboard]

Yeah, whose fault was that?

Olmert was an idiot for pulling out before recovering the two soldiers. To say that hezbollah did not get utterly ****ed in the bum during that conflict is laughable. It still is technically a loss for Israel I guess, seeing as how they went through all that trouble and didn't even get a lousy T-shirt as far as I know.

I didn't get the memo of Israel disarming Hezbollah and getting back the two soldiers. Unless I have memory problems those were Israel two objectives during the conflict.

Mission Failed!

[Brawl]

If Israel acted like the people they are fighting , it would be a different story . We hold them back to keep stability .

Others went to war with Israel and got their a$$es kicked in a few days . Beating terrorists isnt as cut and dry as people make it sound . As long as one dude runs away into the mountains , it's still on . That being said , if Israel decided to do whatever it had to do towards the terroroists to win , you'd all be singing a differernt tune .

Instead of Israel was embarrassed you'd be crying about how many they killed ... so how do they win ?

[bjohnso]

I didn't get the memo of Israel disarming Hezbollah and getting back the two soldiers. Unless I have memory problems those were Israel two objectives during the conflict.

Mission Failed!

That's. My. Point.

Jesus.

[blackboard]

If Israel acted like the people they are fighting , it would be a different story . We hold them back to keep stability .

Others went to war with Israel and got their a$$es kicked in a few days . Beating terrorists isnt as cut and dry as people make it sound . As long as one dude runs away into the mountains , it's still on . That being said , if Israel decided to do whatever it had to do towards the terroroists to win , you'd all be singing a differernt tune .

Instead of Israel was embarrassed you'd be crying about how many they killed ... so how do they win ?
I'm not buying your western propaganda. The moment anyone or Organization from the middle east kills civilians they are put on this terrorist axis of evil list. Yet the US has no problem randomly bombing Somalia and killing women and children to take out 1 terrorist guy. Israel did the same exact thing during the conflict vs hezbollah. Killing civilian is killing civilian.

Maybe if the West didn't spend decades funding --------OMG I mean "freedom fighters" to set up puppets in the Middle East thing wouldn't be so bad today.

[BFGUITAR]

LOL "Lost the War". If Israel wanted to "win" there would be ridiculous casualties. Lebanon would never be the same if Israel wanted to "Beat Hezbollah". Israel would never do something so stupid, especially when so many people's lives were at stake. Israel knew they cannot beat Hezbollah through war without major casualties. Reall, it's up to Lebanon to take care of that.

[blackboard]

LOL "Lost the War". If Israel wanted to "win" there would be ridiculous casualties. Lebanon would never be the same if Israel wanted to "Beat Hezbollah". Israel would never do something so stupid, especially when so many people's lives were at stake. Israel knew they cannot beat Hezbollah through war without major casualties. Reall, it's up to Lebanon to take care of that.

That is simply not true. Israel has no power to take out any Middle Eastern Country without starting World War 3. I guess if pigs could fly

[bjohnso]

I'm not buying your western propaganda. The moment anyone or Organization from the middle east kills civilians they are put on this terrorist axis of evil list. Yet the US has no problem randomly bombing Somalia and killing women and children to take out 1 terrorist guy. Israel did the same exact thing during the conflict vs hezbollah. Killing civilian is killing civilian.

Maybe if the West didn't spend decades funding --------OMG I mean "freedom fighters" to set up puppets in the Middle East thing wouldn't be so bad today.

I am unaware. When did the U.S. randomly bomb Somalia?

Killing a civilian to kill a civilian and killing a civilian to kill some pussy-ass mother****er firing a mortar next to him so green helmet guy can have his photo op later are not the same thing.

[blackboard]

I am unaware. When did the U.S. randomly bomb Somalia?

Killing a civilian to kill a civilian and killing a civilian to kill some pussy-ass mother****er firing a mortar next to him so green helmet guy can have his photo op later are not the same thing.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/08/world/main2335451.shtml

If my memory serves correct this also happened a couple of month ago.

[bjohnso]

That's hardly "random bombing." The U.S. sent precision attack helicopters to attack Al-Qaeda, who we are at war with.

Previously (and I remember this one) AC-130s, which are also precision attack aircraft, attacked suspected Al-Qaeda houses in Somalia.

Neither of these are random bombings.

[blackboard]

That's hardly "random bombing." The U.S. sent precision attack helicopters to attack Al-Qaeda, who we are at war with.

Previously (and I remember this one) AC-130s, which are also precision attack aircraft, attacked suspected Al-Qaeda houses in Somalia.

Neither of these are random bombings.

You're right 31 dead civilian don't matter but the next time A bomb goes off in Iraq and kill 20 civilians it will be called terrorism.

[bjohnso]

You're right 31 dead civilian don't matter but the next time A bomb goes off in Iraq and kill 20 civilians it will be called terrorism.

A Somali lawmaker claims that 31 people were killed. A U.S. intelligence official says 5-10. Who is telling the truth?

Additionally, the U.S. did not set out to kill 31 randoms (if that is the case). The freedom fighters in Iraq always do.

[blackboard]

A Somali lawmaker claims that 31 people were killed. A U.S. intelligence official says 5-10. Who is telling the truth?

Additionally, the U.S. did not set out to kill 31 randoms (if that is the case). The freedom fighters in Iraq always do.

During the Lebanon conflict Israel used your same excuse of not meaning to kill civilian. its like bombing a Zoo but later claiming you didn't mean to harm any animals.

[bjohnso]

During the Lebanon conflict Israel used your same excuse of not meaning to kill civilian. its like bombing a Zoo but later claiming you didn't mean to harm any animals.

Oooo, you racist! Comparing Middle-easterners to animals!

It's nothing like that btw.

[blackboard]

Oooo, you racist! Comparing Middle-easterners to animals!

It's nothing like that btw.

lol, I'm just trying to make a point. If one shoots a bomb at let say the mall to kill a terrorist, chances are civilians are going to die.

[bjohnso]

lol, I'm just trying to make a point. If one shoots a bomb at let say the mall to kill a terrorist, chances are civilians are going to die.

If said terrorist hides in mall amongst civilians while firing rockets at other civilians and his enemy happens to be Israel then he will likely die, along with those physically close to him. I'm shocked, shocked that Israel would value their own citizens over those of a neighboring country.

These turns of events are so predictable that hezbollah places their freedom fighters in malls, schools and hospitals fully expecting and wanting them to get blown to bits. It is sickening.

[BFGUITAR]

lol, I'm just trying to make a point. If one shoots a bomb at let say the mall to kill a terrorist, chances are civilians are going to die.

It is very convenient to support your argument. With todays technology we can launch a missile and blow up one building but leave the next building intact. You go back 30 years ago and to destroy one building we would have to carpet bomb 4-5 square miles.

You can always argue that one civilian casualty is too much, but you have to understand that it is nearly impossible to destroy one target without causing SOME damage around that target. I don't think people understand the technology used in this type of warfare. If you were to go back 30 years and say "We can blow up this building from 1000 km away yet leave everything else around it intact" they would think your crazy.

What else are countries suppose to do? Sending in armed troops would not only scare the population, but put even more people at risk. What your asking is impossible with today's technology. You can't kill the enemy without causing at least SOME damage around the area. And when the enemy is entrenched in civilian areas, this makes it even harder. Todays technology is incredible for this compared to the past.

Whether they should launch the missile in the first place is a different story. But when you have missles coming across your border killing your people, the decision is pretty simple IMO.

[blackboard]

If said terrorist hides in mall amongst civilians while firing rockets at other civilians and his enemy happens to be Israel then he will likely die, along with those physically close to him. I'm shocked, shocked that Israel would value their own citizens over those of a neighboring country.

These turns of events are so predictable that hezbollah places their freedom fighters in malls, schools and hospitals fully expecting and wanting them to get blown to bits. It is sickening.

Most of the rockets fired at Israel do little damage. Its just as sickening when Israel decides that Women and Children shall die because they have to get that one terrorist who fired a rocket that killed no one.

[bjohnso]

Most of the rockets fired at Israel do little damage. Its just as sickening when Israel decides that Women and Children shall die because they have to get that one terrorist who fired a rocket that killed no one.

I'll drive by your house tonight and house it down with an AK-47. If I hit no one, I'll come back and do the same thing tomorrow night, and you are an evil man if you ever decide to take action against me.

ATTENTION FBI: THIS IS NOT A SERIOUS THREAT. IT IS A HYPOTHETICAL AND ANALOGOUS SITUATION INTENDED TO HIGHLIGHT THE ABSURDITY OF MY OPPONENTS ARGUMENT.

Launching rockets at a sovereign nation is an act of war, whether or not they hit anyone - which they actually did kill a few people.

[blackboard]

I'll drive by your house tonight and house it down with an AK-47. If I hit no one, I'll come back and do the same thing tomorrow night, and you are an evil man if you ever decide to take action against me.

ATTENTION FBI: THIS IS NOT A SERIOUS THREAT. IT IS A HYPOTHETICAL AND ANALOGOUS SITUATION INTENDED TO HIGHLIGHT THE ABSURDITY OF MY OPPONENTS ARGUMENT.

Launching rockets at a sovereign nation is an act of war, whether or not they hit anyone - which they actually did kill a few people.

My point about Israel and the US is that we love to call everyone else animals while we commit the same deeds just in a more sophisticated way. Using your example Israel would just blow up the house and the one next to it but have a pre-made statement already made on how sorry they are for taking out two families to kill a few fighter. The US would just pay one of the brother to betray the family and become the ruler even if they knew the brother would take out most of the family members in the process.

All Three will result in Civilian deaths. Hezbollah will be called terrorist, Isreal will apologies and the US will deny involvement.

[bjohnso]

My point about Israel and the US is that we love to call everyone else animals while we commit the same deeds just in a more sophisticated way. Using your example Israel would just blow up the house and the one next to it but have a pre-made statement already made on how sorry they are for taking out two families to kill a few fighter. The US would just pay one of the brother to betray the family and become the ruler even if they knew the brother would take out most of the family members in the process.

All Three will result in Civilian deaths. Hezbollah will be called terrorist, Isreal will apologies and the US will deny involvement.

It's not the same thing at all. If the FBI raids a drug house and accidentally shoots a little kid living in there, are you telling me that's the same as if I broke into some families house tonight and slit another little kid's throat? They are both horrible (and I've never denied that) but one is infinitely worse than the other.

You are also ignoring the cost of taking no action. Do you think hezbollah's rockets will always suck?

[blackboard]

It's not the same thing at all. If the FBI raids a drug house and accidentally shoots a little kid living in there, are you telling me that's the same as if I broke into some families house tonight and slit another little kid's throat? They are both horrible (and I've never denied that) but one is infinitely worse than the other.

You are also ignoring the cost of taking no action. Do you think hezbollah's rockets will always suck?

When Israel drops bombs they are fully aware of civilians. To be politically correct they put out the same cheesy statement about trying not to kill civilians. Your FBI example would be a true accident but thats not Israel. Since you believe Isreal cares about civilian death their propaganda must be working.


I'm 100% aware that Hezbollah is wrong but I'm also 100% aware Israel is no different. 2 wrongs don't make things right. I just hate how the west makes its seem like we're the good guys and they're the bad guys. The truth is the conflict involves two bad guys fighting each other.

[bjohnso]

When Israel drops bombs they are fully aware of civilians. To be politically correct they put out the same cheesy statement about trying not to kill civilians. Your FBI example would be a true accident but thats not Israel. Since you believe Isreal cares about civilian death their propaganda must be working.


I'm 100% aware that Hezbollah is wrong but I'm also 100% aware Israel is no different. 2 wrongs don't make things right. I just hate how the west makes its seem like we're the good guys and they're the bad guys. The truth is the conflict involves two bad guys fighting each other.

I believe Israel cares about civilian deaths insofar as it is related to world opinion of them. They are in a tight spot and it serves no practical purpose for them not to try to minimize civilian casualties. Every time Israel launches an airstrike or shoots some ******* with a suicide bomb every major European news agency and most American ones paint them as the bad guys. I honestly don't think they care about the civilians they kill as people, but as statistics they are damning. I cannot, as a rational person, understand why they would not seek to minimize those.

[CrazyK]

Not surprisingly. How would such a person go about proving his claims to the land? And what would stop people with no claims at all from faking them?

After 60 years most documentation would be lost or destroyed...a refugee camp is not a good place for such things.I'm not sure of the logistics of proof, but their are lots of individuals with deeds to homes, pictures, and British Mandate documentation. I'm also sure this is not an easy process BUT I'll disagree with you on one point. The documentation has usually been very safeguarded in my opinion. Every Palestinian family I've known in the USA that were displaced in 1948 still has the deeds to their homes. So I'm not quite sure of documentation being lost or destroyed.

[CrazyK]

Sorry it took me so long to respond to your inquiry, CrazyK.

Do you have a Palestinian Authority identification number? If so you may not be able to enter the WB through Israel (and may be stuck at Ben Gurion). I believe you have to use the Allenby crossing transiting from Jordan to the WB.

If you're entering simply as an American on a humanitarian cause I'm not sure of the exact procedure. For me as an Israeli citizen it is different. Just how close are your ties to the Palestinian community? Be aware that security and background checks can be absolutely fearsome. If authorities consider you to be too closely tied to the community they may deport you from Israel and insist you obtain PA traveling documentation. If you are not considered Palestinian then you will need to demonstrate (possibly after landing at Ben Gurion) your purpose in the crossing as an American citizen. I am honestly not sure how strict/lenient they are in this capacity.I have no tie to the Palestinian community except for the e-mails between Basr childrens hospital and myself. I recently contact them over the procedure and it seems that American's generally get in to the WB with out too much hostility, it's coming back in to Israel proper that will be hell according to most of them. I really do not care if they strip search me as I have no pride in this issue, it's purely exploratory and humanitarian travel in my mind. So if the IDF wants to see if I'm hiding grenades up my bum so be it lol.

[CrazyK]

I thought retrieving the two kidnapped soldiers was the goal, not defeating hezbollah. So Israel lobs millions of dollars in guided weapons into civilian areas not because they think hezbollah is hiding their, but for kicks and giggles?I didn't say kicks and giggles, I said as a brutal form of coercion. Also remember that it doesn't cost them too much to use these weapons indiscrimnately, the USA has continally given them these weapons and systems for decades on the backs of the US taxpayer.

[CrazyK]

LOL "Lost the War". If Israel wanted to "win" there would be ridiculous casualties. Lebanon would never be the same if Israel wanted to "Beat Hezbollah". Israel would never do something so stupid, especially when so many people's lives were at stake. Israel knew they cannot beat Hezbollah through war without major casualties. Reall, it's up to Lebanon to take care of that.This I agree with. As I pointed out earlier Israel could never really "win" against Hezbollah as a war of attrition would ensue. 2006 Israel-Lebanon was very similar to USA-Vietnam, USA-Iraq, and USSR-Afghanistan.

This type of war was put in to an entire form of concept called a "people's war". Mao Tse Tung formalized the idea saying a very advanced formal army could be defeated by a local hostile population through guerrila warfare. This is why he said he never feared the USSR, USA, or a Japanese invasion of China. While China at the time had little military might the people could fight a war of attrition and eventually wear out their more advanced opponent. He was right.

[bjohnso]

I have no tie to the Palestinian community except for the e-mails between Basr childrens hospital and myself. I recently contact them over the procedure and it seems that American's generally get in to the WB with out too much hostility, it's coming back in to Israel proper that will be hell according to most of them. I really do not care if they strip search me as I have no pride in this issue, it's purely exploratory and humanitarian travel in my mind. So if the IDF wants to see if I'm hiding grenades up my bum so be it lol.

Hiding a grenade up your butt would hurt a lot, damn.

[Songsangnim]

I'm not sure of the logistics of proof, but their are lots of individuals with deeds to homes, pictures, and British Mandate documentation. I'm also sure this is not an easy process BUT I'll disagree with you on one point. The documentation has usually been very safeguarded in my opinion. Every Palestinian family I've known in the USA that were displaced in 1948 still has the deeds to their homes. So I'm not quite sure of documentation being lost or destroyed.


I thought we were talking about refugee camps? Which is why I specified that in my statement.

All of these families knew you well enough to show you the actual deeds?

And they were able to vouch as to their authencity?

[Songsangnim]

Most of the rockets fired at Israel do little damage. Its just as sickening when Israel decides that Women and Children shall die because they have to get that one terrorist who fired a rocket that killed no one.


Walking into a shopping mall and detonating a bomb when you know full well that there are no military targets there is even worse. At least Israel tries to hit military targets.

[Organichu]

I have no tie to the Palestinian community except for the e-mails between Basr childrens hospital and myself. I recently contact them over the procedure and it seems that American's generally get in to the WB with out too much hostility, it's coming back in to Israel proper that will be hell according to most of them. I really do not care if they strip search me as I have no pride in this issue, it's purely exploratory and humanitarian travel in my mind. So if the IDF wants to see if I'm hiding grenades up my bum so be it lol.

Ok, I understand. The border soldiers are incredibly well trained (or perhaps experienced is the word). They see many, many people- Israeli, Palestinian, Arabi Israelis, etc. crossing every day. Most of them who've been on checkpoint duty for a while are actually ridiculously acute. I'm serious, I know checkpoint guards who can pick your Palestinian village from your shoes and your haircut. There are of course sadistic jerks (I've seen guards force Palestinian women to "spit in their hands and bathe with your animal saliva" (rough Hebrew translation), but for the most part they're so experienced/amped up about the possibility of an unknown or threatening person that they'll just shuffle you through.

I myself have been searched a couple of times. One time as an experiment I took an extra long time to 'find' my ID card, and I only spoke Arabic and did not let on that I knew Hebrew. It went very quickly and courteously. Generally the 'horror stories' come from: a.) trouble makers, or b.) idiot guards.

[CrazyK]

Hiding a grenade up your butt would hurt a lot, damn.Maybe the pink team members of the board can teach me how to enjoy it :)

[CrazyK]

I thought we were talking about refugee camps? Which is why I specified that in my statement.

All of these families knew you well enough to show you the actual deeds?

And they were able to vouch as to their authencity?Oh ok. Specifically the ones currently in refugee camps I am not sure of. I've seen many videos of Palestinians having kept their deeds, but obviously that is not sufficient evidence.

Yes I knew them well enough and they obviously weren't lieing based on what I know about them, pictures of themselves in Palestine, with British soldiers during the british mandate, even some with Ottoman's. When I saw these it was never to "prove" it to me, as my opinion means nothing on getting their land back. It was just showing past times, visiting and the like.

[CrazyK]

I myself have been searched a couple of times. One time as an experiment I took an extra long time to 'find' my ID card, and I only spoke Arabic and did not let on that I knew Hebrew. It went very quickly and courteously. Generally the 'horror stories' come from: a.) trouble makers, or b.) idiot guards.Thanks for the help and yes I'm sure this is most likely the case. As it was/is the case in almost all these conflicts. The loudest people are the idiots on both sides.

[Organichu]

Thanks for the help and yes I'm sure this is most likely the case. As it was/is the case in almost all these conflicts. The loudest people are the idiots on both sides.

No problem. I no longer reside in Israel permanently (I return usually 1-2 times a year and get shuffled around a lot trying to scramble to reunite with all my family), so I'm not really up on the newest neighborhood trends and restaurants and stuff but I figure most of my knowledge should still be passable.

[blackboard]

At least Israel tries to hit military targets.
Curious on who told you so? Any source to back your claim?

[BFGUITAR]

Curious on who told you so? Any source to back your claim?

Who you have any proof saying Israel specifically tries to hit civilian targets?

[palmpalm]

Most of my family have served or are serving in the Israeli military including the airforce and the navy. My girlfriend, as well as my 2 ex girlfriends were in the army, almost all of my friends were in the army and I still have several friends in the army. Also, I live in Israel (well not all the time as I also live in Toronto, Canada) and I can assure you that not only is the intent to target only military/terrorist targets but that when a mistake happens and civilians are injured/killed people in the army are upset, Israeli civilians are upset, everybody here is upset and people in the army often get in big trouble, loosing their rank, assignment, going to military prison etc., etc.

Trust me, Israel does not want to hurt civilians.

[CrazyK]

Most of my family have served or are serving in the Israeli military including the airforce and the navy. My girlfriend, as well as my 2 ex girlfriends were in the army, almost all of my friends were in the army and I still have several friends in the army. Also, I live in Israel (well not all the time as I also live in Toronto, Canada) and I can assure you that not only is the intent to target only military/terrorist targets but that when a mistake happens and civilians are injured/killed people in the army are upset, Israeli civilians are upset, everybody here is upset and people in the army often get in big trouble, loosing their rank, assignment, going to military prison etc., etc.

Trust me, Israel does not want to hurt civilians.The evidence according to many reports done by many human rights organizations points to firing indiscriminately to punish the general population of their enemies, military and non-military.

This has also been demostrated by Israel's intent on breaking international law in the west bank by bulldozing homes, building illegal settlements, and keeping the masses of innocent people in an apartheid state.

Most of the Nazi German soldiers in Europe had no idea what was really going on in the concentration camps. Such an example is very parrallel to your friends experiences, however they are keeping themselves ignorant by ignoring the reports, publications, and evidence cited by Israeli scholars, international press, and the general population showing examples of obvious brutality.

[palmpalm]

Ladies and gentleman CrazyK is what is called an antisemite. Hopefully he/she will die soon :)

[CrazyK]

Funny. The most common response by the Pro-Isreal lobby. ANYONE who is critical of Israeli actions, even given they provide valid evidence, is an anti-semite. Or a self-hating Jew as was the case when the Israel lobby named the head of human rights watch a self-hating Jew in response to his help in the reports of Israeli actions in southern Lebanon in 2006.

Very funny.

[blackboard]

Who you have any proof saying Israel specifically tries to hit civilian targets?

Yes I have proof. Anytime you shoot at "civilian targets" you are targeting civilians.

[Songsangnim]

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=89029&d=20&m=11&y=2006


As this article shows, Israel targets the homes of fighters...military targets, and desists if civilian casualties are likely to be high. ]And prior to this planned attack, Israel ordered the occupants out of the building As the article (an Arab publication...so not likely to cut Israel any slack) admits. "Israel routinely issues such warnings before attacking buildings"

So it puts the lie to those who claim that Israel deliberately targets civilians or doesn't care about civilian casualties. The Arabs themselves admit it.

[BFGUITAR]

Yes I have proof. Anytime you shoot at "civilian targets" you are targeting civilians.

There is a difference between hitting and targeting.

And CrazyK, how do these human rights organizations know? Do they have better recon than Israel? What are their sources of information?

[blackboard]

So because Israel drops a few leaflet they now get a free pass to target civilians? Israel has drops plenty of bombs in parts of Lebanon without having any evidence of Military Targets unless you include their exclusive intelligence that often times end up exclusively taking out civilians. So they destroy all the major roads and target moving vehicles but use the warning trick of leaflets to pretend to care about civilians. I do get it. You blow up a car or building but immediately tell news agencies they were suspected military targets.

Yes I do believe some were actual targets but most was probably random guessing intelligence similar to how the US was pretty sure about WMDs in Iraq.
Sorry about the couple hundred dead civilians but check out of leaflets proving that we do care.:rolleyes:

[Songsangnim]

So because Israel drops a few leaflet they now get a free pass to target civilians? Israel has drops plenty of bombs in parts of Lebanon without having any evidence of Military Targets unless you include their exclusive intelligence that often times end up exclusively taking out civilians. So they destroy all the major roads and target moving vehicles but use the warning trick of leaflets to pretend to care about civilians. I do get it. You blow up a car or building but immediately tell news agencies they were suspected military targets.

Yes I do believe some were actual targets but most was probably random guessing intelligence similar to how the US was pretty sure about WMDs in Iraq.
Sorry about the couple hundred dead civilians but check out of leaflets proving that we do care.:rolleyes:



So they should just let the terrorists bomb them indiscriminately then? At least they warn the other side. The Palestinians don't even bother. Shows that Israel operates to a higher moral standard...and thus it has my support.

BTW do you have any proof or any links that they "exclusively take out civilians" You said this happens "oftentimes" so how about showing a list of most of these instances? Shouldn't be that hard to find.

[azma]

BTW do you have any proof or any links that they "exclusively take out civilians" You said this happens "oftentimes" so how about showing a list of most of these instances? Shouldn't be that hard to find.

It's actually very easy to find -- and, if you'd searched, you'd have found it yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

[BFGUITAR]

I really don't think CrazyK is an anti-semite at all... never got that impression...

Your keep criticizing Israel but never seem to comment on how sad suicide bombing really is and ANY faults on the Palestinian side. Israel is in a horrible position, trying to defend itself and trying to fight its opposition who are securely mounted in the civilian population. CrazyK, what do human rights representatives say about brainwashing children to blow themselves up (those videos I sent you are the types of things that air all the time in Israel)? Not to mention horrible parenting... never will you see a 4 year old Israeli holding an AK... it's sickening.

I don't buy the "It's Israel's fault for provoking people to suicide bomb" because this is not common when making political statements. People are using religion to fight a political war. This also disturbs me, a lot. It is possible to negotiate with people if there is a political dispute, but when you bring religion in to this it makes it nearly impossible for real discussions. There are Jews who have religious feuds with Muslims but this group of people are ridiculously tiny.

[Songsangnim]

It's actually very easy to find -- and, if you'd searched, you'd have found it yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU



Ha ha ha. Very funny. Now about that list...?

[Songsangnim]

I really don't think CrazyK is an anti-semite at all... never got that impression...

Your keep criticizing Israel but never seem to comment on how sad suicide bombing really is and ANY faults on the Palestinian side. Israel is in a horrible position, trying to defend itself and trying to fight its opposition who are securely mounted in the civilian population. CrazyK, what do human rights representatives say about brainwashing children to blow themselves up (those videos I sent you are the types of things that air all the time in Israel)? Not to mention horrible parenting... never will you see a 4 year old Israeli holding an AK... it's sickening.

I don't buy the "It's Israel's fault for provoking people to suicide bomb" because this is not common when making political statements. People are using religion to fight a political war. This also disturbs me, a lot. It is possible to negotiate with people if there is a political dispute, but when you bring religion in to this it makes it nearly impossible for real discussions. There are Jews who have religious feuds with Muslims but this group of people are ridiculously tiny.


Excellent post. Mr. CrazyK, I would like to know what these human rights representatives would say about this?

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=75168

Using mentally handicapped children..disgusting. How can you negotiate with people willing to do that? Short answer you can't

(sarcasm on) And the horrible Israelis didn't even kill him, they sent a robot to help him take off the bomb vest. (sarcasm off)

[CrazyK]

I really don't think CrazyK is an anti-semite at all... never got that impression...

Your keep criticizing Israel but never seem to comment on how sad suicide bombing really is and ANY faults on the Palestinian side. Israel is in a horrible position, trying to defend itself and trying to fight its opposition who are securely mounted in the civilian population. CrazyK, what do human rights representatives say about brainwashing children to blow themselves up (those videos I sent you are the types of things that air all the time in Israel)? Not to mention horrible parenting... never will you see a 4 year old Israeli holding an AK... it's sickening.

I don't buy the "It's Israel's fault for provoking people to suicide bomb" because this is not common when making political statements. People are using religion to fight a political war. This also disturbs me, a lot. It is possible to negotiate with people if there is a political dispute, but when you bring religion in to this it makes it nearly impossible for real discussions. There are Jews who have religious feuds with Muslims but this group of people are ridiculously tiny.Obviously human rights organizations are disgusted, as am I (an Arab-Muslim) with the situation of suicide bombing. However these people also represent a very small minority, and that small minority should be sought after by Mossad and as well as Palestinian officials for justice. Israel has of course handicapped Palestinians by not allowing them a military of their own or intelligence to counter such terrorist groups by their own accord.

However Israel is at large to blame for a lot of this irrational behavior. By continually putting individuals in a desperate state, Israel essentially does the recruiting for a lot of these sadistic terrorists. I'd like to refer Song and BFGuitar to the treaty of Versailles, and the subsequent easy rise to power Hitler had thereafter. It was relatively easy for the desperate German population to take on the ideas of Nazism, extreme prejudice, and brutality to what they saw as anyone different then them, and therefore to blame for their situation. If one keeps a population under such durress, continually breaks international law, and does not allow a majority population to govern itself, one will see disgusting reprisals. This manifests itself today in the mentally handicapped child being used as a potential suicide bomber. I'd love to go educate those people who did use that child on how bad the hell fire really is, because that's where they're going to end up.

To answer BFGuitar on the issue of human rights organizations findings, they take in to account civilian vs military casualties, video tapes, eye witness reports, etc... Really like any other audit. They also blamed Hezbollah for spraying rockets in their investigation.

[CrazyK]

So they should just let the terrorists bomb them indiscriminately then? At least they warn the other side. The Palestinians don't even bother. Shows that Israel operates to a higher moral standard...and thus it has my support.

BTW do you have any proof or any links that they "exclusively take out civilians" You said this happens "oftentimes" so how about showing a list of most of these instances? Shouldn't be that hard to find.See you're wrong here. "Palestine" does not suicide bomb or endorse it. These are small groups of individuals acting on their own accord. Bulldozing homes and replacing them with settlements is illegal regardless of the inhabitants of such homes. It has been a continually condemned practice by the entire international community, even the USA.

[BFGUITAR]

To answer BFGuitar on the issue of human rights organizations findings, they take in to account civilian vs military casualties, video tapes, eye witness reports, etc... Really like any other audit. They also blamed Hezbollah for spraying rockets in their investigation.

Civilian vs military casualties are irrelevant when your lobbing missiles across a border. Although when you say military do you mean Israeli or Hezbollah? I wouldn't consider Hezbollah military but if you do, these numbers can easily be faked. Not to mention how do these Human Right's people know who's Hezbollah and who isnt?

If there were a group of people who were part of Hezbollah do you really think they would let anyone know? No, because that would give more information to Israel potentially. It's much easier to say your a civilian especially when your not wearing a uniform. I am not saying this always is the case but what I am saying is Israel has better recon when it comes to this than Human Rights organizations.

And you keep mentioning that the group of suicide bombers and such are very small... They seem to be large enough to

1) Fund programs on TV to promote suicide bombing
2) Buy weapons and explosives
3) Cause huge distress and eliminate any chance for peace making

I dont care how small it is. It is still significant enough to cause major problems for both sides.

ON TOP of all this, there seems to be little to no pressure from the pro-peace Palestinians on these people. They may not approve but you don't see rallies of Palestinians with signs saying "Save our children, stop suicide bombing". This goes for you as well. If such attacks were to stop I have no question Israel would be more willing to negotiate.

The majority of Palestinians aren't part of the suicide bomber group yet they don't seem to care very much when their children run off with bombs... I guess it's not too bad as long as they're killing Jews right? (sarcasm) Have Palestinian officials done anything? They may say they condemn it but it's all talk. They can't seem to control their own people. There is more than an Israeli-Palestinian problem here clearly.

[CrazyK]

They follow the audit procedures of almost all reputable media corporations. Visit hospitals, funeral homes, etc... Not to mention video evidence and eye witness accounts of Israeli airstrikes on Ambulances, Hospitals, and Apartment buildings. It was very obvious that Israel was not targeting specific targets they thought to be military.

Also the reputability of the two organizations is superb. Record of providing honest, unbias information is important to both organizations.

[blackboard]

So they should just let the terrorists bomb them indiscriminately then? At least they warn the other side. The Palestinians don't even bother. Shows that Israel operates to a higher moral standard...and thus it has my support.

BTW do you have any proof or any links that they "exclusively take out civilians" You said this happens "oftentimes" so how about showing a list of most of these instances? Shouldn't be that hard to find.


Your statement on how Israel operates at a higher standard is proof their propaganda machine is working. A suicide bomber killing 30 civilians is no different than a precision missiles killing 30 civilians in a building where no military evidence was found. Since its from the sky I guess it doesn't seem as bad(sarcasm) The leaflets and warning before striking certain areas is all part of Israel propaganda strategy to appease human rights organization and the West. Its makes guys like yourself describe Israel as operating from a higher standard even though more civilians keeps dying with no military evidence to show for in certain areas.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_war_crimes_in_the_2006_Lebanon_War

[palmpalm]

Man I just love how antisemites can be found anywhere. Reading some of the bull**** these guys write actually makes me laugh. Thankfully I finally have an army and my own weapons to protect me from the more serious amongst them. This reminds me of a joke:

A Jewish man was sitting in Starbucks reading an Arab newspaper. A friend of his, who happened to come in the same store, noticed this strange phenomenon.

Very upset, he approached him and said: “Moshe, have you lost your mind? Why are you reading an Arab newspaper?”

Moshe replied, “I used to read the Jewish newspapers, but what did I find? Jews being persecuted, Israel being attacked, Jews disappearing through assimilation and intermarriage, Jews living in poverty.

So I switched to the Arab newspaper. Now what do I find? Jews own all the banks, Jews control the media, Jews are all rich and powerful, Jews rule the world.

The news is so much better!”


And here are some links for those who want to be better informed:

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/arabsinisrael/index.htm
http://www.masada2000.org/
http://www.arabsforisrael.com/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3522443,00.html
http://www.newantisemitism.org/
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/HistoryJewishPersecution.htm
http://www.aish.com/seminars/whythejews/

“When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews, You are talking anti-Semitism.” [from “The Socialism of Fools: The Left, the Jews and Israel” by Seymour Martin Lipset; in Encounter magazine, December 1969, p. 24. ].

[Songsangnim]

Your statement on how Israel operates at a higher standard is proof their propaganda machine is working. A suicide bomber killing 30 civilians is no different than a precision missiles killing 30 civilians in a building where no military evidence was found. Since its from the sky I guess it doesn't seem as bad(sarcasm) The leaflets and warning before striking certain areas is all part of Israel propaganda strategy to appease human rights organization and the West. Its makes guys like yourself describe Israel as operating from a higher standard even though more civilians keeps dying with no military evidence to show for in certain areas.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_war_crimes_in_the_2006_Lebanon_War

1) Israel warns civilians of potential strikes. This is established protocol and and proved by outside observers. Higher moral standards.


2) Israel does not employ children as suicide bombers, let alone the mentally handicapped. Higher moral standards.

[Songsangnim]

See you're wrong here. "Palestine" does not suicide bomb or endorse it. These are small groups of individuals acting on their own accord. Bulldozing homes and replacing them with settlements is illegal regardless of the inhabitants of such homes. It has been a continually condemned practice by the entire international community, even the USA.



First off all those houses were bulldozed because people in them were attacking Israeli troops. They were destroyed to prevent cover.

Furthermore this practice was halted in 2005 according to this article. Why are you claiming this in 2008?

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/02/18/israel_to_halt_house_razings/

Although if you have an article from a reputable source that shows mass bulldozing of homes and replacing them with settlements still occurs today, I would be glad to see it.

[Songsangnim]

They follow the audit procedures of almost all reputable media corporations. Visit hospitals, funeral homes, etc... Not to mention video evidence and eye witness accounts of Israeli airstrikes on Ambulances, Hospitals, and Apartment buildings. It was very obvious that Israel was not targeting specific targets they thought to be military.

Also the reputability of the two organizations is superb. Record of providing honest, unbias information is important to both organizations.


which two organizations are these?

[palmpalm]

which two organizations are these?

Songsangnim, bro, you are arguing with antisemites. These people are not going to go by facts or truth. You will never convince them. While I am happy to see your advocacy for Israel and thankful for your support, my advice is to not waist your breath arguing with people who are, for all intents and purposes, enemies of Israel.

[CrazyK]

which two organizations are these?Amnesty international and Human Rights Watch. The bulldozing did stop in 2005, but was never justifiable. Olmert wanted to bring the practice back but the pressure from the international community was too immense to ignore. The building of illegal settlements, roadblocks, city blockades, curfews, unwarranted search and seizure, imprisonment with out trial, etc... still continues.

Palmpalm that is ridiculous and is typical of an Israeli lobbyist. I am critical of Israeli actions but have no despise for Jews in and of themselves. For example,...replace the Israeli's with any other group with any religious affinity and I would be criticizing them as well. Jews lived along side my family for many-many years in Libya and we never had a problem. It's the extremists on both sides that do most of the 99% of the shouting.

To BFGuitar, Organichu, and the other Jews who have perused this thread and argued based on politics instead of name calling and the usual "You're an anti-semite!" or "You're a zionist!", thanks. It's been good discussion.

[BFGUITAR]

Your statement on how Israel operates at a higher standard is proof their propaganda machine is working. A suicide bomber killing 30 civilians is no different than a precision missiles killing 30 civilians in a building where no military evidence was found. Since its from the sky I guess it doesn't seem as bad(sarcasm) The leaflets and warning before striking certain areas is all part of Israel propaganda strategy to appease human rights organization and the West. Its makes guys like yourself describe Israel as operating from a higher standard even though more civilians keeps dying with no military evidence to show for in certain areas.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_war_crimes_in_the_2006_Lebanon_War

There is no motive for your argument. What would Israel accomplish by killing civilians? Missiles are expensive and Israel knows using them to kill the enemy would be better. Killing civilians intentionally would be silly. And you keep forgetting, Hezbollah uses civilian areas to mount their attacks (including hospitals). This makes it harder to target/find them. When a missile does hit them everything around that immediate area gets blown up, including civilians. What is Israel to do in this situation? Let them lob missiles and just let their own civilians? It is sad but Israel cannot hold back. There are misses of course, this is war. An effort had to be taken by the Lebanese to single out these individuals in Hezbollah to ensure their safety as well.

Would there be any way for you to not believe Israel wants to kill civilians? Your calling the leaflets a propaganda strategy. Is there anything they can do that you wouldnt be a propaganda strategy?

[lakeripple]

There is no motive for your argument. What would Israel accomplish by killing civilians? Missiles are expensive and Israel knows using them to kill the enemy would be better. Killing civilians intentionally would be silly. And you keep forgetting, Hezbollah uses civilian areas to mount their attacks (including hospitals). This makes it harder to target/find them. When a missile does hit them everything around that immediate area gets blown up, including civilians. What is Israel to do in this situation? Let them lob missiles and just let their own civilians? It is sad but Israel cannot hold back. There are misses of course, this is war. An effort had to be taken by the Lebanese to single out these individuals in Hezbollah to ensure their safety as well.

Would there be any way for you to not believe Israel wants to kill civilians? Your calling the leaflets a propaganda strategy. Is there anything they can do that you wouldnt be a propaganda strategy?

Look for a documentary, I think produced by the CBC or BBC, focusing entirely on Western reporters targeted / killed by Israeli fire.

While Israel continues to occupy the Gaza Strip, they will always be the aggressors in the eyes of the countries around them. And rightfully so. The terrorist actions of groups such as Hezbollah are the military result of countries that can't defend themselves in conventional warfare against an occupying force.

And as for targeting civilian structures, Hezbollah makes it clear it has no morals as long as their actions further their goals. However, these immoral attacks demand an equal response from the Israeli people, an eye for an eye if you will. The Jewish population demands retribution, and what the people want the people get, even if they are in fact lowering themselves to the actions of terrorist groups...

[Songsangnim]

Look for a documentary, I think produced by the CBC or BBC, focusing entirely on Western reporters targeted / killed by Israeli fire.

If you put yourself in a danger zone, with people firing guns, there is a high likelihood of you being shot. And it wasn't just solely from Israeli fire.

While Israel continues to occupy the Gaza Strip, they will always be the aggressors in the eyes of the countries around them. And rightfully so. The terrorist actions of groups such as Hezbollah are the military result of countries that can't defend themselves in conventional warfare against an occupying force.

Hezbollah has nothing to do with the Gaza Strip

And as for targeting civilian structures, Hezbollah makes it clear it has no morals as long as their actions further their goals. However, these immoral attacks demand an equal response from the Israeli people, an eye for an eye if you will. The Jewish population demands retribution, and what the people want the people get, even if they are in fact lowering themselves to the actions of terrorist groups...

And Hezbollah is irrelevant to this thread...it's about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[blackboard]

There is no motive for your argument. What would Israel accomplish by killing civilians? Missiles are expensive and Israel knows using them to kill the enemy would be better. Killing civilians intentionally would be silly. And you keep forgetting, Hezbollah uses civilian areas to mount their attacks (including hospitals). This makes it harder to target/find them. When a missile does hit them everything around that immediate area gets blown up, including civilians. What is Israel to do in this situation? Let them lob missiles and just let their own civilians? It is sad but Israel cannot hold back. There are misses of course, this is war. An effort had to be taken by the Lebanese to single out these individuals in Hezbollah to ensure their safety as well.

Would there be any way for you to not believe Israel wants to kill civilians? Your calling the leaflets a propaganda strategy. Is there anything they can do that you wouldnt be a propaganda strategy?


The motive for killing civilians is called payback. I know its hard to believe a “high moral standard” country like Israel could act in this manner. Between Israel propaganda machine and the way the west reports news I do understand why you feel this way. Israel does a good job of taking one example of hezbollah shooting from a civilian area as an excuse to take out many strictly civilian targets. When Israel stop killing civilians and blowing up building which are found to have no evidence of Military affiliation only then will they be fighting from a higher standard; until then they are wrong just like hezbollah.

[lakeripple]

And Hezbollah is irrelevant to this thread...it's about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

The discussion of Hezbollah was brought up by others, that was my first post quoting previous posters.

Israeli snipers were actively targeting reporters, this isn't an issue of crossfire or misunderstandings.

Hezbollah was created as a resistance movement against the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, I gave the Gaza strip as an example of why
the countries around them are aggressive.

[BFGUITAR]

The motive for killing civilians is called payback. I know its hard to believe a “high moral standard” country like Israel could act in this manner. Between Israel propaganda machine and the way the west reports news I do understand why you feel this way. Israel does a good job of taking one example of hezbollah shooting from a civilian area as an excuse to take out many strictly civilian targets. When Israel stop killing civilians and blowing up building which are found to have no evidence of Military affiliation only then will they be fighting from a higher standard; until then they are wrong just like hezbollah.

Lol that is a personal opinion. Pay back for what? What did the Lebanese civilians do to Israel? You still don't have a motive.

[lakeripple]

Lol that is a personal opinion. Pay back for what? What did the Lebanese civilians do to Israel? You still don't have a motive.

Read my post from above BFG If you want to see something really shocking, search for interviews on youtube / google video with the Israeli living in the Gaza strip. My favorite was an elderly woman asking Sharon to bomb the Palestinians, because that's why she and the people had voted him in for.

Are you saying that because Israel isn't a third world country it can't commit acts of terrorism. Just look at the United States. Guantanamo Bay, Iraq, etc...

[BFGUITAR]

Read my post from above BFG If you want to see something really shocking, search for interviews on youtube / google video with the Israeli living in the Gaza strip. My favorite was an elderly woman asking Sharon to bomb the Palestinians, because that's why she and the people had voted him in for.

Are you saying that because Israel isn't a third world country it can't commit acts of terrorism. Just look at the United States. Guantanamo Bay, Iraq, etc...

All I am saying is, there is no motive.

And settlers are ****ed, we know that. The views of settlers are such a small minority of Jewish people. Your picking out the worst of a relatively huge population of people. And it's not like these people make up a significant portion of what most people think. And at least that woman is voting for what she thinks and not running around with a bomb strapped to herself.

Anyone can commit terrorism. But in the context of Lebanon and Hezbollah, civilian casualties are inevitable when Hezbollah fights from civilian areas.

[blackboard]

Lol that is a personal opinion. Pay back for what? What did the Lebanese civilians do to Israel? You still don't have a motive.
Daughter marries bad boy, mom doesn't like it so she disowns and treat daughter like **** to show her disapproval. Hezbollah is part of Lebanon. Lebanon being practically destroyed is enough evidence to prove Isreal had motives to punish Lebanese civilians in the process of fighting Hezbollah. Guitar , what about the civilian area Israel destroyed that shown no evidence of Military activities?

[BFGUITAR]

Daughter marries bad boy, mom doesn't like it so she disowns and treat daughter like **** to show her disapproval. Hezbollah is part of Lebanon. Lebanon being practically destroyed is enough evidence to prove Isreal had motives to punish Lebanese civilians in the process of fighting Hezbollah. Guitar , what about the civilian area Israel destroyed that shown no evidence of Military activities?

Im sorry but I don't have the recon on hand for any areas bombed, do you?

Israel punishing Lebanese civilians? Lol is that really your reasoning? Has a government official ever announced hatred for the Lebanese people? You still are not giving me a motive. Saying their actions are motive enough implies that you are disregarding the depth of the situation. Your are pairing two facts together without mentioning anything in between. There are reasons for bombings... I don't know... maybe because of Hezbollah?

[blackboard]

Im sorry but I don't have the recon on hand for any areas bombed, do you?

Israel punishing Lebanese civilians? Lol is that really your reasoning? Has a government official ever announced hatred for the Lebanese people? You still are not giving me a motive. Saying their actions are motive enough implies that you are disregarding the depth of the situation. Your are pairing two facts together without mentioning anything in between. There are reasons for bombings... I don't know... maybe because of Hezbollah?

Isreal doesn't have the recon either. This is why they go on fairy tale bombing mission on civilian targets which is played down by the Western media because they do drop a few leaflets here and there and saying anything negative about Israel is equal to a white person coming on TV and calling a black person a racial slur.(career suicide) I'm waiting for you to break down to me why civilians are getting killed in areas where no military activities were taking place. If you can give Israel waviers cause they bomb from the sky then I'm pretty sure just maybe the suicide bomber was targeting Israel military. Sounds silly doesn't it.

A little offtopic but lets talk about high morale coming from the West. Whats worst, suicide bombings or 1 nation invading another nation without cause and 500,000 civilian death later we are still there. But ask the average citizen and they will be quick to tell you that our gov't and friends are above those terrorist. I used this example because its similar to how Israel get over wiith simple propaganda making whatever evil action they commit justified but all enemies are barbaric. Both sides are equally wrong, hezbollah and Israel both operation within their capacity.

[Songsangnim]

Isreal doesn't have the recon either. This is why they go on fairy tale bombing mission on civilian targets which is played down by the Western media because they do drop a few leaflets here and there

Israel warns people to get out of the way. If they don't well then Darwin Awards should be handed out. I have little sympathy for anyone who knows a bomb is coming and doesn't take measures to increase their and their families safety. I have even less sympathy for parents who send their children out on suicide bombing missions while their cowardly behinds are relatively safe at home.

and saying anything negative about Israel is equal to a white person coming on TV and calling a black person a racial slur.(career suicide) I'm waiting for you to break down to me why civilians are getting killed in areas where no military activities were taking place.

I'm waiting for you to break down where these exact areas were/are and solid evidence that no military activities were taking place.

If you can give Israel waviers cause they bomb from the sky
then I'm pretty sure just maybe the suicide bomber was targeting Israel military. Sounds silly doesn't it.

Agreed. Saying we are giving Israel waviers because they bomb from the skies IS silly. So let's hear no more about it. Israel warns civilians well in advance. Should they choose not to heed warning, then it is their fault. And Israel does hold back...one of the links I posted talked about Israel calling off a strike against terrorist leaders houses because there were too many civilians acting as human shields.

A little offtopic but lets talk about high morale coming from the West. Whats worst, suicide bombings or 1 nation invading another nation without cause and 500,000 civilian death later we are still there. But ask the average citizen and they will be quick to tell you that our gov't and friends are above those terrorist. I used this example because its similar to how Israel get over wiith simple propaganda making whatever evil action they commit justified but all enemies are barbaric. Both sides are equally wrong, hezbollah and Israel both operation within their capacity.

Israel has been attacked and invaded without cause, multiple times over. And bombing raids and such would not occur if the Palestinians didn't provoke them and start attacks.