History

[Allen]

I think it's important to squash any myths out there, so...



One of the biggest myths related to the Arab-Israeli Conflict is that Israel and the whole of Mandatory Palestine before it; "was stolen from the Arabs as a result of imperialist machinations and settled by alien Jews."

The FACT is that until the defeat of the Ottoman Turkish Empire during World War I, there was no geopolitical entity called Palestine, no Arab nation lived on this land and no national claim was ever made to the territory by any group other than the Jews. Palestine, which was named so by the Roman Emperor Hadrian in an attempt to wipe out any Jewish connection, was simply a general name used for the area for historical purposes.

1867 - Mark Twain, when visitng Palestine wrote:

"... [a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but
is given wholly over to weeds - a silent mournful
expanse....A desolation is here that not even
imagination can grace with the pomp of life and
action...We never saw a human being on the whole
route....There was hardly a tree or a schrub
anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast
firends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the
country." (The Innocents Abroad)

Between the expulsion of the Jews by Rome in 70 to 132 CE and the defeat of
the Ottoman Empire in 1918, Palestine was occupied by fourteen conquerors
over thirteen centuries. The following table shows the approximate historical
periods of the various rulers of Palestine:

1. Israel Rule (Biblical Period)
1350 BC to 586 BC
2. Babylonian Conquest
587 BC to 538 BC
3. Israel Autonomy
(under Persian and Greco-Assyrian suzerainty)
538 BC to 168 BC
4. Revolt of the Maccabeans
168 BC to 143 BC
5. Rule of the Hasmoneans and their successors
143 BC to 70 AD
6. Jewish Autonomy
(under Roman and Byzantine suzerainty)
70 AD to 637 AD
7. Rule of Arab Caliphates

Mecca
637 AD to 661 AD
Umayyides
661 AD to 750 AD
Abbaside
750 AD to 870 AD
Fatimides
969 AD to 1071 AD
8. Seljukes Rule
1072 AD to 1096 AD
9. Crusaders
1099 AD to 1175 AD
Ayyubids
1175 AD to 1291 AD
10 . Mamelukes Rule
1291 AD to 1516 AD
11. Ottomans (Turks)
1516 AD to 1918 AD
12. British Mandate
1918 AD to 1948 AD


Thus, during the whole period of recorded history Palestine was never rules by the Arabs
of Palestine. The rule of the Arab Caliphates, which was a foreign Muslim rule, extended
for a period of 432 years - Jewish rule extended over a period of some 2000 years.

The inhabitants of the region consisted of their conquering soldiers and their slaves and only during
the Muslim conquest of the area were these diverse ethnic inhabitants compelled to accept Islam
and the Arab tongue or be put to the sword. The Jews in fact are the sole survivors of the ancient
inhabitants of Palestine who have maintained an uninterrupted link with the land since the dawn of
recorded history.

ARABS RECOGNIZE JEWISH SOVEREIGNTY

This fact was recognized in 1919 at the Allied Peace Conference in Paris to which
representatives of the Middle East Arab and Jewish Peoples were invited. At this conference,
Feisal, son of King Hussein, who headed the Arab delegation, agreed that Palestine should be
earmarked as the specific area in which Jewish sovereignty was to mature.

He announced acceptance of the Balfour Declaration of Nov. 2, 197 and concluded an agreement
with the World Zionist Organization, confirming that "all measures shall be adopted as will
afford the fullest guarantee of carrying into effect the British Government's Balfour
Declaration." These sentiments were expressed by Emir Feisal in a letter to prof. Felix
Frankfurter, Justice of the United States Supreme Court;

"Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted by the
Zionist Organization to the Peace Conference and we regard them as modest and
proper. We will do our best, insofar as we are concerned, to help them through, we
will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home." (March 3, 1919)

This letter followed the agreement signed on January 3, 1919, by Emir Feisal and Dr. Weizman.
Its first article stated:

"The Arab States and Palestine in all their relations and undertakings shall be
controlled by the most cordial goodwill and understanding, and to this end Arab and
Jewish duly accredited agents shall be established and maintained in the respective
territories."

JEWISH AREAS REDUCED

Two promises were indeed made by Britain - one to the Arab peoples and the other to the Jews -
but completely reconcilable ones.

The interesting historical fact is that between World War I and the United Nations partition of
Palestine in 1947, British promises to the Arabs were over-fulfilled while their promises to the
Jews were constantly violated and whittled down. Far from being the victim of imperialism, the
Arab were handsomely rewarded by it when their sovereign states were established from above
by the carving up of the former Turkish Empire. This took place without the direct involvement of
the Arab peoples in the form of national movements as had been the case for example in Europe
in the end of the 19th century.

The development of the part of historic Palestine allocated by the major Powers for Jewish
sovereignty took a different course. The area originally designated and agreed to by Hussein and
Feisal, was first reduced by four-fifths, on which the British established the Emirate of Transjordan
(now Jordan). It was then reduced further by United Nations partition plan that designated a
substantial portion of this remaining fifth of Palestine as an independent Palestinian Arab state.
Thus in 1948, the State of Israel which came into being consisted of less than 8,000 square miles.
Against this, five Arab States - SYRIA, LEBANON, SAUDI ARABIA, JORDAN and IRAQ
covered an area of 1,200,00 square miles.

It was on the remaining one-fifth that the British Mandate of Palestine was established, and Britain
was charged by the League of Nations with the task of fostering the development of the Jewish
national home through unrestricted Jewish immigration and land settlement. It should be pointed
out here that at that time over 70% of the country was Crown lands transferred from the outgoing
Ottoman Empire to the incoming British Mandatory Authority. the remaining 30% of land were
largely swamp and barren hillside: It was in these areas that Jewish settlement began through land
purchase of absentee Arab landowners. nowhere did the Jews seek to displace any indigenous
population.

The distribution of land in 1949 in the part of Palestine now Israel, between Arabs and Jews was
as follows:

8.6 % of the land was owned by Jews.
3.3% of the land was owned by Israeli Arabs.
16.5 % of the land was owned by Arabs who fled.
70% of the land was the property of the British Mandatory Government now the property
of the State of Israel

Under the Mandate, of the Jewish population continued to grow but while their immigration was
progressively restricted, that of Arabs from the surrounding countries (Syria and Jordan) was
completely free. As a result, attracted by the Jewish development of the country, the Arab
population increased rapidly and had attained majority by 1947.

PALESTINE ARABS NEVER A NATION

Palestine Arab nationalism to whatever degree it is a conscious ideal today, is a product of recent
political currents. Until the 1920's no such national community had even existed in Palestine. This
is why both the Balfour Declaration and the League of Nations Mandate charged the Jews of the
National home with guaranteeing the civil and religious rights of other inhabitants. No mention was
made of other national rights of the other inhabitants. No mention was made of other national
rights as it recognized that the only national claim to the area was that made by the Jews. But the
fiction of Palestine Arab nationality is still being exploited. If the Palestinians were in fact a
separate nationality, then their anger over the past 40 years would have been directed as much
against Jordan and Egypt as against Israel, for it was the invading armies of these countries which
captured in the 1948 war a substantial portion of the territory under the United Nations partition
plan to the Palestine Arabs. This included the West Bank, which was occupied by the Jordanian
Army and added to their Kingdom, and the Gaza Strip, which was seized by the Egyptians.

The one people that have in fact maintained its historic and religious connection with the area
called Palestina, over a period of 2,000 years, is the Jews. Their right to the land is not only based on history and sentiment but is claimed by the physical process of the work invested in
transforming it into an area capable of supporting life. it is the fruits of this work that motivate
mythological Arab claims to the Land of Israel.

[jell999]

Interesting place to post this...

[PowerManDL]

Good read though.

[jell999]

Dont get me wrong, it is a good read.
I just think it may be in the wrong forum.

[jell999]

Much better.

I dont usually train to history lessons. :D

[smalls]

Why exactly did you post this here. Who are you trying to convice, and what are you trying to gain. Isnt this the reason why so many people are killing each other over there becasue one group says they have the rights to own/live their and others say the opposite. Why bring that here, what so we can "understand" who REALLY should have it. Thats great bro, but what does that accomplish.

[PowerManDL]

Learning is never a waste of time.

[Twiztid]

I didn't wanna read all of that, somebody wanna sum it up in a few lines for me? :)

[PowerManDL]

Originally posted by Twiztid
I didn't wanna read all of that, somebody wanna sum it up in a few lines for me? :)

Summary: ICP sux

[smalls]

I wasnt saying learning is a waste of time, I was just wondering what he was trying to say. I realize the background and info was good, but it seems likes he is just bringing in that "it's ours, now get out" attitude in here and I dont think this is the place. Oh well. Also I agree with your summary.

[Allen]

Small and co., firstly I've seen many posts that are quite off topic in regards to bodybuilding, secondly like I already mentioned I feel it is important for misconceptions to be cleared up.

I'm not saying Jews have a right to the land, I'm simply allowing people who don't know much about this topic to get a brief lesson in the history of the region. Many arguments made by various "intellects" are not valid, and that is what I wanted to show you guys.

[Orange357]

*passes out asprin bottle* Good post.

[Shane]

Originally posted by Orange357
*passes out asprin bottle* Good post.

LOL! No kidding! We could all use some of those. It was a good post Allen.

[Allen]

bump

[Tryska]

so what about the nomad cultures that have trekked across that land for eons? are they not counted as people on the land?

[body]

just to add ireland has never been one whole country. but the IRA are fighting for a country to unite that has never existed.

[Allen]

Tryska, can you give me an example and then maybe I'll be able to answer the question better.

Also, FYI, there are over a million Arabs living freely in Israel, which has a population well under 10 million.

[body]

luckily my nieghbour hood is not considered holy land.

[Tryska]

of nomadic tribes that have used that land for eons?

there are several. the bible makes reference to them, there are various groups that tend to fall under the blanket description of bedouins etc.

basically it's these dis-enfranchised peoplke who are no longer nomads for whatever reason, who have become muslim, and imo have reason to feel they have been displaced by the creation of Israel.

[hemants]

Politics aside, there is little doubt that Palistineans were ethnically cleansed from their homes.

As I understand it, the right of return has always been one of the sticky points for a peace agreement.

History is never without bias - it's better to think of the future. One that includes a Palistine and an Israel.

[Allen]

ummm, see, I feel you're both quite wrong.

Look at the Middle East, there is Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran etc. and then there's Israel. A tiny state which one can drive through in about 5 hours. There is about 8 million people living in the land, over a million being Arabs. How many Jews are living in the neighbouring Arab lands? None, they were driven out of their. Now that's is what I consider cleansing. In any event, if you read my first post, the Palestinians were offered half of Israel but did not accept, the Jews on the other hand were ready to accept the offer.

If you have anymore arguement/questions, go right ahead and ask.

[hemants]

"70% of the land was the property of the British Mandatory Government now the property of the State of Israel"

Both the Palistineans and the British troops were ousted from this area by Jewish terrorists.

It's no wonder that the lunatics in Palistine believe that terrorism actually works in some cases. History has shown them that it does ;)

[Allen]

lol, are you kidding me?

Learn your history buddy.

[hemants]

Which history?

The Jewish version?
The Palistinean version?
or the British version?

[Allen]

Funny.

Question for you.

Do you think the Inidnas have the right to threaten to kick out every Canadian and American that isn't of Indian decent?

[hemants]

"Do you think the Inidnas have the right to threaten to kick out every Canadian and American that isn't of Indian decent?"

That's an abstract question.

The Indian constitution is secular not theocratic so under those rules, no, they do not.

But when it comes down to it, a country can do whatever it wants.

That doesn't make it right though.

[Allen]

answer the question.

Why should Israel return land it conquered when it was attacked in 1967?!

Ask England to return Gebraltar.

Like I said in previous posts, over a milliong Arabs live in Israel, how many Jews live in the surrounding Middle East countries??

[hemants]

Israel can do whatever it wants. There is no such thing as international law - it's the law of the jungle.

"Why should Israel return land it conquered when it was attacked in 1967?!"

Israel has to do it's own cost/benefit analysis. If doing so will end terrorism then it may be worth it. I'm not much for morality, particularly when it comes to politics :)

My primary concern is that I feel that MY life in North America is in danger now because of what is happening in the middle east. Thus any permanent solution that won't create 1000's of more terrorists would be my preference :)

[Tryska]

Originally posted by hemants
Which history?

The Jewish version?
The Palistinean version?
or the British version?

heh. ;)

[WarWolfPanzer88]

http://www.senate.gov/~inhofe/fl030402.html

[hemants]

"http://www.senate.gov/~inhofe/fl030402.html"

Yes, we know what the bible says. But if you ask me, religion is a barrier to peace in the middle east, not a vehicle that will help achieve it.

After all, what are the odds that both sides will agree on what God says on the matter? Zero.

[Allen]

Hermant, you're missing the point.

No matter what Israeldoes and has done there has been no peace.
Arabs do not want to recognize the existence of Israel.

Plain and simple.

[Allen]

It's a no win situation for Israel.

[Allen]

I'm taking this from the link WarWolfe posted, it's very appropriate.

"They did offer a hand of peace, and it was not taken. That is why the politics of Israel have changed drastically over the past 12 months. The Israelis have come to see that, ``No matter what we do, these people do not want to deal with us. ..... They want to destroy us.'' That is why even yet today the stationery of the PLO still has upon it the map of the entire state of Israel, not just the tiny little part they call the West Bank that they want. They want it all."

[hemants]

You are partially correct.

There are lunatics on both sides that will not let the moderates implement a peace deal even if it is made.

But you have to give the moderates something to hope and live for and hope that that will empower them to suppress the extremists.

And that to me means creating a state of Palistine, setting up internationally recognized borders, and then implementing martial law as long as it takes to shut down the loonies.

Easier said than done of course ;)

[Shane]

Extremists suck.

Allen, if you read half that Senator's arguments than Native American's and the Irish would both have the right to expel European Americans and the English respectively.

Hey, where'd your last comment go Allen? :)

[Allen]

so get the hell out of Cali then.

[Allen]

There was never a Palestinian state to begin with. The tiny state of Israel should not give up land without reassurance of peace.

Hermants, exactl where are these Israeli extremists, blwing up hotels on passover killing 16 and injuring 130 Jews, oh wait no, that was a Palestinian.

[Shane]

Originally posted by Allen
so get the hell out of Cali then.


Yeah, that's a typical moronic response. You're an intelligent guy. Is that the best you can come up with? Two problems with that.

1) I didn't say that was my opinion. I just said that they could use it to justify their position. I never claimed an opinion. You just assumed I did. Don't be so quick to think you have the answer.

2) I'm an eighth Cherokee. Numerous other people in North America. So shall I cut an eight of myself out and leave it here while I return the other parts of me to Germany, Spain, France and Central America? I'm sure you'll say "yes".

Besides, according to the 1st Amendment and my rights as an American I can say what I want. When you tell someone they should leave the country simply because they do not agree with your opinion...tell me, who is being less American?

:)

[Shane]

Allen, tell me the difference between a terrorist and a soldier?

BTW, I'm not trying to say I support terrorism in any form. I'm just playing devil's advocate.

[breeze]

Originally posted by hemants
Which history?

The Jewish version?
The Palistinean version?
or the British version?


Nice come back.

[body]

slobadon millosevic(SP - serbia), iddy arghmean(uganda)

you may not like what they did, but they were not afraid to act upon there beliefs(wrongly).

out of curosity when the iraq war and afghans trouble started people were claiming to start a gihad.
but why did the muslim world not declare a gihad on slobadan millisovic as he was killing the muslims in serbia. if there why ever a reaosn to declare a gihad that would be it?
the US and european countries are seen to be anti-muslim yet our forces were more involved in that war(peace keeping) than most muslim nations.
i think there is a lot of hypocrits out there.

[Shane]

Originally posted by body
slobadon millosevic(SP - serbia), iddy arghmean(uganda)

you may not like what they did, but they were not afraid to act upon there beliefs(wrongly).

out of curosity when the iraq war and afghans trouble started people were claiming to start a gihad.
but why did the muslim world not declare a gihad on slobadan millisovic as he was killing the muslims in serbia. if there why ever a reaosn to declare a gihad that would be it?
the US and european countries are seen to be anti-muslim yet our forces were more involved in that war(peace keeping) than most muslim nations.
i think there is a lot of hypocrits out there.


Agreed.

[WarWolfPanzer88]

Regardless of what the bible says, Hemants, let's just face the facts: The 'Palestinians' do not deserve a state. There was never an independent Arab state called Palestine. At best, Palestine was a backwoods Turkish province. Hence, there were no pilgrimages to the "holy" Al Aqsa mosque. Jerusalem is not the third holiest site of Islam. Mecca and Medina are holy, Jerusalem was never mentioned in the same breath until the liberation of the Temple Mount by the Israelis in 1967.

The Palestinians and their political leadership bring war and instability to wherever they reside, be it Jordan, Lebanon or in the very territories Israel recently handed over to them. No one wants them as neighbors because they are too egotistical, hotheaded, selfish and immature to qualify as a responsible nation.

And no one would sign a meaningful agreement with any Palestinian leader because agreements are always broken. Israel learned the hard way, that the PLO's diplomats have no ethics and lie with impunity. They will always be diplomats of a terror organization, never of a nation, because nations must abide by their commitments.

There is no hope of the Palestinians ever honestly electing their leaders.

At best, this ragtag collection of Middle Eastern peoples will accept whatever tyrant proves the most inscrutable and leads their tribe after Arafat.

The Palestinians send their children to their deaths to make media propaganda points. Real nations care about their young. The PLO and its allied Islamic organizations practise child sacrifice under the guise of martyrdom.

The PLO has no morals, national or otherwise. Their sole motivation is to instill hate from one generation to the next.

The PLO has brought nothing but misery to its followers. The Palestinians know nothing of the creation of beauty, engage in no serious scholarship, pass nothing of greatness down the ages. Their legacy is purely of destruction.

The Palestinian leaders and their factotums are totally corrupt, stealing every penny of public money they can lay their hands on. No one seriously accepts that financial aid will actually reach the people. And no one will make a business investment in the Palestinians because of the payoffs and bribes involved in setting up shop. And for what? A business that will be shut down or destroyed by terrorism and civil war? The PLO's strongarm tactics have brought in just enough protection money to buy arms and pay the militias, but not enough honest funds to initiate a prosperous nation.

The PLO and its police torture people they don't like. They execute people without due process of law. Whatever Palestinian courts do exist, none do so to protect the rights of the accused.

The PLO will not tolerate free expression and arrest and torture journalists who criticize the regime.

The PLO offer no rights to women. Only among its followers in the Christian community, can women receive higher education and responsible jobs.

There is no Palestinian language.

There is no Palestinian religion.

Jerusalem is never mentioned in the Koran.

Mohammed never claimed he was in Jerusalem.

The Al Aqsa Mosque and Shrine Of Omar are built atop the ancient Jewish temples.

The Jews held sovereignty over Jerusalem for 1300 years; the Arabs, a mere fraction of the time.

There was never an Arab Palestinian nationalist movement until 1964.

The majority of "Palestinians" according to British demographic surveys, arrived in Israel after 1917, seeking economic opportunities.

No one is offering to compensate the 800,000 Sephardic Jews whose assets were stolen when they were forced out of Arab countries in the 40s and 50s.

Israel took in their refugees, the Arabs kept their 500,000 in camps.

The Palestinians already have a nation, Jordan. There, the indigenous majority is ruled by Bedouin royalty from Mecca. The Jordanians had control of the West Bank from 1948 to 1967 and never once offered it as a Palestinian state. Why not? The Egyptians held the Gaza Strip for much longer. Why didn't theycreate a Palestinian state if there were Palestinian people living there?

There is no ancient Palestinian history. There are no world renowned Palestinian artists, scientists, not one Palestinian literary masterpiece, no recognizable culture, no inventions... nothing that distinguishes Palestinians as a people.

They are neither a unique people, nor a separate people with their own history. The Palestinians do not deserve a nation because they are not a nation.

Period.

[Allen]

Well, I was all ready to post something thought provoking but I was beat to the punch.

Thanks WarWolfe.

Oh, and Shane, I did realise you were/are playing devil's advocate. To answer your question regarding the difference between a soldier and a terorist, well, it depends what groups we're talking about. Take the Israeli soldiers and Palestinians terrorists for example, since I imagine you were reffering to that anyway. Israeli soldiers do not strap on bombs and walk into pizza shops, hotels, market places, buses, etc. Yes, if you were an Arab indoctrinated with bull**** then you would claim the Jews, with their horns go into villages and murder children, however that is not the case.

Thanks again Wolfe.

[Zalxder]

Arabs have way too many problems. i say nuke em, they wont mind, theyll think there going to Allah and theyll be happy. palestinians have the wrong idea about warfare. war isnt won by p'ing off the other side by killing innocent and unarmed civilians. war is one by duking it out and taking every advantage you can get. i wouldnt worry about it, palestinians arent gonna get anywere...maybe to allah, but there definetly not going to get any land or rights

[Allen]

A 16 yr old Palestinian girl blows herself up in an Israeli supermarket, Arafat can sure contain his people.

Now Israel is going to do what they should have a while ago, retaliate.

[Twiztid]

Originally posted by PowerManDL


Summary: ICP sux

hahaha.. gee, I've NEVER heard that before.

[PowerManDL]

I may be a bastard for saying this, but I don't think it would hurt my feelings too much if the Israelis went berserk and hit the Palestinians with a big ol' can of genocide.

[Allen]

I try to pride myself as a civil rational person, but enough is enough, Israel should show these nuts who's boss.

[body]

why is it that if isreal use top class weapons they are seen as bad.
while when the palestines use dumb suicide bomber its not seen so negatively in the press?

[PowerManDL]

Exactly. Quite frankly, I think Israel's been quite mature about the matter. The Palestinians send a suicide bomber, the Israelis blow up one of their villages. Israel hasn't been taking any aggressive action beyond that necessary to protect themselves.

Considering the escalation of violence, I think they'd be quite justified in driving the Palestinians right into the sea.

[body]

of the six wars or what they have had.
how many did isreal start?

[PowerManDL]

None that I'm aware of.

[Allen]

exactly.

plus, pre-1967 borders there was still violence. Giving these savages Israeli land will not solve anything.

If they could prove it would, then Israel would withdraw, but the Palestinians keep showing their true colors.

[Allen]

Another suicide bombing, this time in Tel-Aviv, in a cafe called Bialik.


unbelievable.

[Allen]

The Nited Nations is a farce, a joke, a pathetic organisation.

[Allen]

The United Nations is a farce, a joke, a pathetic organisation.

[Allen]

Who are these Palestinians kidding. If Israel wanted to destroy them they could, but now especially Palestinians are pushing the envelope too far with homicidal maniacs.

The world needs to open their eyes.

[Allen]

sorry for the rant, but this upsets me.

[body]

I feel sorry for the isrealies

[Rock]

The fact that the Isreali soldiers are trained to headshot children,
and do it very often must not be forgotten, or the time they blew up kindergartens in libiya, its nobodys fault, if Israel withdrew from Gaza and stop returning fire, the conflict would quite suprisingly stop, there would be nothing more to fight about.

Allen you have forgotten one very important thing, the conflict is now about the occupied areas, it was Israel who took that land who officially belonged to Palestine, they didnt have to take it, but they did.

[WarWolfPanzer88]

There's only one flaw in your logic, Rock. The Palestinians are not merely some persecuted minority group seeking independance or freedom from an oppressive government regime, these people want nothing short of the absolute destruction and removal of the Jewish state and culture, denying its right to exist entirely despite 4000 years of history, and have made no bones about this extreme of their position.

At this point in the game it's kind of like the Native American Indians rising up to overthrow the U.S. government and dissolve American culture. It's madness. It's absurd. In addition to this, the Palestinian "state" (as it were) is phantom -- arbitrary -- any Arab or even non-arab anywhere in the world can call themselves a "Palestinian." Europe (especially France and, albeit to a lesser extent, Scandinavia) is packed with self-determined, self-appointed Palestinian "youths" who have never set foot in the country. They call themselves "Palestinians in exile" but no one ever exiled them! They know nothing more than that they are told to think, say and do for the cause. That alone is the most idiotic, irrational and wholly corrupt element of this whole middle east debacle. There will never be and end to the stream of human beings claiming to be Palestinian and demanding a Palestinian state and the complete overthrow of the Jewish state.

Israel has little by little sacrificed one parcel of land after another after another to the Palestinians over the decades until they possess a mere sliver, a pathetic fraction of what the UN Charter delivered to them, and what they themselves fought valliantly for in '68, against seemingly insurmountable odds; Egyptian forces out numbering and out gunning them almost 10 to 1. That victory was of Biblical proportions, to say the least.

Sour grapes, Rock. I think that's the Palestinian story, which is nothing more than a thinly veiled world Arabic cohersion by the phantom Palestinian "state," the never-depleted foe of Israel, to make peace absolutely impossible until the Jewish state is overrun or overturned. It's been an invasion, my friend, years and years of Arabs of every sort pouring into the tiny little country for the express purpose of assisting the demise of Israeli government and land possession. They will not be satisified with a mere Palestinian state co-exising with the Jewish state. That has been openly expressed countless times by Palestinian leaders, including Arafat. (By the way, I hope they finally kill him today... better late than never.) You can't find on record a government official of the Jewish state calling for the death of all Palestinians, but it doesn't take a hard read to find plenty of such genocidic rhetoric from Arafat and other Palestinian overlords.

Israel, you will notice, has not taken the ultimate step and removed all Palestinians from the country or sought to "kill off" the entire Palestinian population as many like to suggest is their goal. They have had the might to do so for 30 years. And who would stop them? What have they done instead? Put up with endless acts of terrorism against Israeli citizenry and hacking off more and more land for a people who are never satisfied or appeased. It's that simple. Until the entire nation is under Palestinian rule, and Jerusalem falls into their hands and every Jewish element is overwhelmed, the Palestinian phantom state will continue to mangle the peace process, meanwhile slowly blackmailing the government with terrorism to get more and more land.

There I fault Israel... not the Palestinians. Israel should cease all diplomatic and humanitarian relations with Palestinians until the bombings and riots stop cold and firm offers, which are more than generous (even outlandish in some cases), are accepted by them once and for all.

This may seem to be very one sided, but when the other option is to give credence to an outlaw faction bent on the destruction of an entire people and culture, and sworn to it, what the hell do you expect? The crimes of the Jewish state MUST be addressed by the world court, and UN (if necessary) without attempts by the international community to abolish the Jewish state in the process. A Palestinian state of some kind is always in the making, but who is it that always pulls the plug on it? Not Israel. Not the Jews. It's Arafat and the PLO, operating under the orders of outside Arab controllers who have absolutely no interest in a Palestinian state or peace.



The fact that the Isreali soldiers are trained to headshot children,
and do it very often must not be forgotten, or the time they blew up kindergartens in libiya, its nobodys fault, if Israel withdrew from Gaza and stop returning fire, the conflict would quite suprisingly stop, there would be nothing more to fight about.

Allen you have forgotten one very important thing, the conflict is now about the occupied areas, it was Israel who took that land who officially belonged to Palestine, they didnt have to take it, but they did.


If you actually believe what you just wrote, by the way, you're an inneffectual Arab propaganda factory. Get your facts straight before you run your mouth, kid.

WarWolfPanzer88

[body]

It good that the jews stick for themselves.

for 1,000 of years they have been perscuted, look where it got them. when they finally protect themselves they are seen as evil and bad.
Jew have like 30,000 square kilometers of land. the arabs have a couple of million. I may have simplified a issue there, but my statment is not wrong.

[Rock]

WarWolfPanzer88 well first of you all, you should know that the numbers after your name, 88, means Heil Hitler, so you might get your facts straight to.

And I have seen lots of footage of palestine kids trowhing rocks and being shot, ever since I started wathcing the 9 o clock news when I was around 11-12.
I can also give you detailed information from a documentary made by Norwegian Tv2, where Isreali soldiers tell about their orders to kill children, not adults.

As you might have noticed Norway is working hard to make peace in the midt east, with the most important diplomatic man so far, Terje Rød Larsen.

[Rock]

Harper's magazine accuses Israeli troops of deliberately goading Palestinian children and murdering them for sport.

that happens everyday, happy now?

[Allen]

Oh man Rock, ignoramuses like you haunt me.

Do you not realise that these Palestinians are being sent out by their parents,teachers etc. to go out and fight against these Jews. That they are being taught to hate, these kids are not innocent. Yes, it is a tragedy, but all of what you mentioned is wrong, and a big problem with European media is that they manipulate the audience. Please, if you have trouble understanding the issues re-read War's posts, they are well written and scattered with facts. Oh, and what the hell does his numbers in his nickname have to do with you being completely wrong?

Like, War said exceptionally well, if Israel wanted to kill Palestinians, wanted to rid themselves of them they could have. They have the military capability.

Countries that don't want Israel to exist surround them, and protecting themselves is something they should never stop doing, even if it means the death of brainwashed kids. Did you see read how young the suicide bomber in Jerusalem was the other day? 18!! These kids are indoctrinated at a horribly young age.

Oh, and btw, before Israel captured the land pre '67, like mentioned by WarW and I, there was no peace.

So, please Rock, before you start spreading erroneous facts, do some research.

[Allen]

Please cite a link where I can read that, with pictures.

Thank you.

[body]

Originally posted by Rock
Harper's magazine accuses Israeli troops of deliberately goading Palestinian children and murdering them for sport.

that happens everyday, happy now?

why do the palestinan parent let there children go out to those area then?
why do the palenstinan make it ahrder for the children to approach a diputed border.

Prevention is better than cure. - may be thats statement is a bit harsh.

[WarWolfPanzer88]

Originally posted by Rock
WarWolfPanzer88 well first of you all, you should know that the numbers after your name, 88, means Heil Hitler, so you might get your facts straight to.

What's your point? My political sympathies are none of your concern.

What may be your concern is that unlike the other Arab wars of aggression, this war of terror is waged primarily against Jewish civilians, especially children. When Israel strikes back in self-defense, supporters of Palestinian attackers bemoan the loss of Arab terrorists and children caught in the cross fire. By denouncing Israel's defense as part of a "cycle of violence,'' Arab sympathizers treat this latest Arab aggression and Israeli defense as morally the same.

But this terror war is but a battle in the same war that has been waged against Israel for 50 years. Jews have shown they want peace but misled Arabs have shown, time and again, that they want to win.

Now, why is it said that Jews "occupy'' Judea and Samaria?

The land on the west bank of the Jordan was used by Arab armies in 1967 as a base to surprise and destroy Israel. When Jewish fighters won that war, Israel remained in that battle zone. The United Nations declared that Israel -- unlike any other victorious victim of aggression -- should return some, but specifically not all, of the land so close to its vulnerable cities. These are disputed territories; to call them "occupied'' reveals a prejudice against Israel's right to what were supposed to be "secure and defensible'' borders. If a final peace settlement seemed so close two years ago, why can't America actively negotiate a peace agreement now?

After offering too-generous concessions that would have endangered Israel and divided Jerusalem, a naive Israeli soldier and an overeager American president were certain an agreement was "so close.'' The reason it was not is that the present Arab leaders want all of Israel, not just the disputed territories. That's what they teach their children. Only when Palestinian leaders realize that their new weapon of human missiles cannot wear down the Jews will they be willing to discuss a long truce.

That is why it is a tragic mistake for the U.S. -- which just answered a terrorist attack on itself with heavy bombing and an invasion -- to restrain Israel from hotly pursuing the creators of suicide bombers who are now under the protection of the Palestinian army. So long as Arab leaders believe outsiders will impose a settlement on Israel that renders it impotent, they will keep terrorizing through the next 10 cease-fires.

As for this week's vaunted Saudi visions in Beirut, "full normalization'' could be rescinded on a royal whim overnight; "full withdrawal'' is forever.

And you, Rock, are a naive fool...

/WarWolfPanzer88

[Rock]

Woody Allen, I can only find norwegian links with journalists giving accounts for the slaughtering of rock trowhing kids, but hey maybe it was all movie tricks, and the kids I have seen being shot on the news was just Arabic propaganda.

And for you being a Nazi WarWolfPanzer88, my Grandfather got tortured 5years in BergenBelsen, Auswitch, so I dont like nazis to much, and I do not comprehend the fact that the death penalty does not concern neonazis, for just being, Neonazis.

[body]

Originally posted by Rock
, so I dont like nazis to much, and I do not comprehend the fact that the death penalty does not concern neonazis, for just being, Neonazis.

so what is the difference between killing palesitan children and killing neo-nazi children?

Rock you are loosing your objectivity here.

[Rock]

Neonazi children? is there such a thing?.
NeoNazis are making the ideal that killing people of other types is good live on, and they must be destroyed, simple.

[body]

Originally posted by Rock
Neonazi children? is there such a thing?.
NeoNazis are making the ideal that killing people of other types is good live on, and they must be destroyed, simple.

you can become a nazi before your 18.


palestinan are making the ideal that killing jews is good live on, and they must be destroyed, simple.

so can you explain to me the difference now?

[Allen]

Rock is not so bright, so he avoids the subject.

You information is wrong, buddy. Kids do die, but for the most part these kids are not innocent.

Btw, there were two Palestinian suicide bombings today, one in Haifa and one in Efrat. The one in Haifa was by a 22 year old Arab who was an Israeli citizen. Animals.


let me re-emphasis what I said before.

Post '67 border there was violence, the West Bank, Baza eas-Jerusalem, are not "occupied", they are Israel's land.

No Jews living in surrounding Mid-East Arab countries.

Arab countires do not have freedom of press, brainwash people into hating Jews.

Israel has the right to defend itself, and has shown great restraint over the years, and even now is showing restraint. Keep in mind there was one terrorist attack in the US and America went into Afghanistan (not condoning, but simply comparing).

[Allen]

http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn31.html

http://www.suntimes.com/output/commentary/cst-edt-edits31.html

[Gyno Rhino]

WarWolf, you a neo-nazi? Just curious.

[Rock]

yes, the eight letter in the alphabeth x 2, 8=h 8= h, heil hitler, it is a "code" for nazis that dont want anybody to find out that they are nazis.

Yeah Allen, I am really stupid, I cant understand why NeoNazis cannot exist in peace with the world, man you must be extremely dumb.

And when your first talking about history, I would like to see your explanation to this: Why did Isreal blow up several kindertgartens throughout libiya, with children in, in the 1970ths?
because they thought there where terrorists hiding there.
Admit it, you think arabs are a lesser worthy people.

And why is 78% of the killed in the isreali versus palestine conlflict arabs? oooops!!! now that changes it a bit my friend.

[Praetorian]

Originally posted by Rock
yes, the eight letter in the alphabeth x 2, 8=h 8= h, heil hitler, it is a "code" for nazis that dont want anybody to find out that they are nazis.

Yeah Allen, I am really stupid, I cant understand why NeoNazis cannot exist in peace with the world, man you must be extremely dumb.

And when your first talking about history, I would like to see your explanation to this: Why did Isreal blow up several kindertgartens throughout libiya, with children in, in the 1970ths?
because they thought there where terrorists hiding there.
Admit it, you think arabs are a lesser worthy people.

And why is 78% of the killed in the isreali versus palestine conlflict arabs? oooops!!! now that changes it a bit my friend.

jepp, i've been doing some research and the 88 stands for Heil Hitler as Rock stated...

and Rock to your question ; u answered it yourself...there were terrorrists hiden in the kindergartens... Let me ask u a question, what is best...killing a couple of kids, or let the terrorrist go free and blow himself up in a mall, thus killing a lot more kids and people....?

[Rock]

but Cena, your an arab? jeez show some nationalism, hehe.

[Praetorian]

Originally posted by Rock
but Cena, your an arab? jeez show some nationalism, hehe.

it doesn't matter where I'm from... I'm against terrorism in general. And you can that that nationalism crap and...u know...

[WarWolfPanzer88]

Originally posted by Gyno Rhino
WarWolf, you a neo-nazi? Just curious.

Let me just say that those who support the Palestinians support the continued dispersion of Jews throughout the world, including America. The Judean hills (West Bank) are among the most beautiful property in the world, and would be currently peopled with Jewish settlers, were it not for the fear of daily attacks from Palestinian neighbors. Immigration to Israel has always been less than it ought to be due to the constant Palestinian menace, and since the Intifada began, immigration of Jews to Israel has dropped to almost nothing. Only the transfer of Palestinians out of Israel will create both the space and security needed to encourage a new immigration wave among American Jews. Support your local Jewish immigration office, its only purpose is to move Jews from America to Israel.

WarWolfPanzer88

[Tryska]

so in your opinion there's a problem with a jewish diaspora?

[Rock]

I was a moderator I would not allow a neonazi to be present on WBB.

[Paul Stagg]

Guys - I know this is a very close topic to some of your hearts.. so we are allowing it to continue with some leeway.

Please show respect for everyone involved in the conversation.

Moderators here do not ban people for their political views. We will take action if someone refuses to act in a civil manner.

[Allen]

Paul, no prob. I think I have.

Rock, I'm not discussing Neo-Nazis, that has nothing to do with my original thread.

You made false statements and can't support any of your pathetic arguements, hence I'm not going to bother anymore with you.

If you'd like to read about history, read my posts.

Thank you.

[Gyno Rhino]

WarWolf, what is the problem with Jews in America? They have as much right to be here as do you.

[body]

more bombing today
the news was biased as well.

they fired warning shots at a protest march, however if I was a suicide bomber I could hide in there. the news failed to mention you could get into the isreal that way and kill people.
its bette to be safe than sorry

yet agian I see palestinan parents with no idea of looking after thier children.
Are some people that dumb, they go to a disputed zone where they know the isreal tanks are, with their children. If i was them I would have gone a big distance a way especailyl with children, its not like the warning shots were not anticpated.
its like if i had being around in the world war and letting my children play in the trench of the battle of the somme.

[WarWolfPanzer88]

Originally posted by Gyno Rhino
WarWolf, what is the problem with Jews in America? They have as much right to be here as do you.

Many of the Jews below, being the descendants of persons from Russia, Poland, and the Eastern European Communist nations, are listed as Socialists by the Progressive Democratic Socialists of the USA. They work to turn America from a Republic to a strictly-controlled, Communist "democracy" where freedoms are curtailed and taxes are high.

Gary Ackerman (D-N.Y.)
Shelley Berkley (D-Nev.)*
Howard Berman (D-Calif.)
Benjamin Cardin (D-Md.)
Peter Deutsch (D-Fla.)
Eliot Engel (D-N.Y.)
Bob Filner (D-Calif.)
Barney Frank (D-Mass.)
Martin Frost (D-Texas)
Sam Gejdensen (D-Conn.)
Benjamin Gilman (R-N.Y.)
Tom Lantos (D-Calif.)
Sander Levin (D-Mich.)
Nita Lowey (D-N.Y.)
Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.)
Steve Rothman (D-N.J.)
Bernard Sanders (I-Vt.)
Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill.)*
Brad Sherman (D-Calif.)
Norman Sisisky (D-Va.)
Henry Waxman (D-Calif.)
Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.)*
Robert Wexler (D-Fla.)

...And Jews didn't invent Communism, had nothing to do with the Bolshevic revolution, they don't profit from the sex trade, and they are 2% of the population yet didn't make up 36% of Bill Clintons pardons...
I see the light now. :cool:
Fact is, everytime I have come across liberal Jews, they always defended my Constitution valiently, always respected my religion, and always respected American values and traditions... NOT!

However, I happen to like many conservative Jews, at least on a personal level, and think that the evil of the liberal Jewish establishment (like certain overzealous albeit braindead groups like the Democratic party, the Simon Weisenthal Society, the ADL and the Jewish Defense League, all of whom I detest) is not reflected in them... On this I could be wrong, but it is my working hypothesis.

The simple fact of the matter is that I'd rather have them there than here... and besides, I dislike the Ay-Rabs a whole lot more...

WarWolfPanzer88

[Tryska]

what are American Values and traditions?

[Gyno Rhino]

Well, at least you aren't stereotyping American Jews as Communists. Not that there would be anything wrong with that, if it were true. According to your Constitution (assuming you mean the U.S. in this instance), every person, regardless of race, has the right to believe whatever they want (this includes political ideology).

I just think that singling out the Jewish race as the harbinger of Communism (which is NOT a bad thing anyway) is kind of over-simplification. Communism is not evil, regardless of what you may have been taught. Jews are not more evil than any other race.

And, even if Jews were evil bastards that were out to overthrow the government, are you sure that you want to be connected to a group that murdered millions upon millions of people?

Murder is murder in that case. Killing a Jew in a gas chamber is no less or no more than going out and shooting a man in the streets. Obviously, you never said that you condoned that. You may, you may not. I don't know. But having a name with "Heil Hitler" encoded is not really an encouraging sign.

You say that you would rather have them there than here. Well, I say that the average Neo-Nazi causes much more socio-economic unrest than does the average Jew. So, who would be a more beneficial citizen of the United States?

Also, dogging any group of people due to something as superficial as race, skin color, etc., is blind hatred. It's not a good thing. I'm sure that for every Communist Jew that is committing hidden atrocities, there are 10000 that are happy, good, productive citizens in the United States. Can you say that for the Neo-Nazi group?

I'm not saying that every Neo-Nazi is a blind, cruel, foolish person. I'm sure that within the Neo-Nazi camp, there are some good, wholesome people that simply have bigoted views because they've been blindsided. But I doubt that only 1 in 10000 is a preacher of blind hatred. I'd imagine it's the other way around, in all honesty.

[hemants]

"The simple fact of the matter is that I'd rather have them there than here"

Americans are americans, regardless of where their ancestory happens to be. Aside from the natives, everyone is an immigrant.


"... and besides, I dislike the Ay-Rabs a whole lot more... "

You are free to dislike an entire community but personally, I think it's more productive to like or dislike people as individuals, and better still to like or dislike particular qualities within individuals. Otherwise you run the risk of being prejudicial towards someone whom you don't even know.

[Allen]

lol

I don't want to get started with this other discussion that has emerged.

I don't really appreciate some recent comments made by WarW, but I think he's pretty set in his ways.

[hemants]

"I don't really appreciate some recent comments made by WarW, but I think he's pretty set in his ways."

Nah, stupid ideas can dissappear just as quickly as they arise ;)

Those who are quick to hate tend to change their minds quickly as well :)

[Allen]

another suicide bomber exploded himself in West Jerusalem, killing only himself luckily and injuring the Police officer who stopped him.

[Allen]

Just found out the policeman died.

Terrible.

He's a hero in my books.

[Rock]

CNN is an American Tv News Broadcasting channel, and this channel is supportive of the popular american views, and their news is almost always biased and adapted to their audience.
This is why you find it disturbing that someone who gets their news from a non american channel, tells you that he sees israli soldiers put bullets in rock trowhing kids heads, but just because your jewish and american doesnt mean it doesnt happend.

[hemants]

Media is the watchdog of democracy.

[Allen]

Firstly, I'm not American, secondly, you cant argue with the facts that I and Wolf, among others have mentioned, thirdly, learn how to spell, it's Israeli.

Like I said before, if Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians, they could have.

Hemants, thanks again.

BTW, read the second article in the link I provided in my first post on this page. It explains that there was a big headline in an Arab country last week about Jews and Passover and how during the holiday the Jews drink the blood of non-Jews.
How are kids supposed to grow up thinking anything but horrible thoughts regarding Jews if this is what they are taught?!

[hemants]

"How are kids supposed to grow up thinking anything but horrible thoughts regarding Jews if this is what they are taught?!"

Very true. It's part of the viscious cycle.

It's funny that both sides agree that a Palistinean state should be created and that doing so would give the moderate Palistineans something to live for. But alas, the region is trapped in many viscious cycles....sad.

[Gyno Rhino]

I like the Neo-Nazi argument better..

[Allen]

Gyno, so start your oen thread regarding the issue.


Hemants, It's not that both sides agree, it's the fact that Israel is willing to compromise and give up some of their won land (which is absolutely minisucle), in order to achieve peace. Braak offered 95 % of original pre '67 land to the Palestinians. Even that puts Israel at risk, for they need a buffer zone, yet it was offered in the hope of peace.

Alas, you can't live quietly with people who don't want you to exist.

[hemants]

"Alas, you can't live quietly with people who don't want you to exist."

Very true. And this seems to be increasingly the case.

But I would contend that this is at least partially self fulfilling.

I think you've got to find a way to empower the moderate Palistineans but the problem is that the radicals (on both sides) don't want that to happen. But by playing hardball, it only serves to empower the radical voice more and silence the voice of reason IMO.

[Rock]

well, now the isreali soldiers have shot peace activists the last few days, including a norwegian read cross helper was beaten up today.....

The isreali soldiers go to work and kill loads, the palestine suicide bombers are kids filled up with frustrations, I am the only one who sees the difference.

[PowerManDL]

The Palestinians are murderous psychopaths. The Israelis are protecting themselves with a level of force which is necessary to deter murderous psychopaths.

[Gyno Rhino]

IMI will whoop everyone's ass. How can throwing rocks stand up to the might of the Desert Eagle .50 and Galil? Eh? They can't.

I agree with Power, BTW.

[Rock]

so its okay to snipe kids then? I dont how it can be justified.

[PowerManDL]

When a kid is threatening to take the lives of 10-100 people, hell yes its okay.

[Rock]

well I am talking about the school kids that trowh rocks at the soldiers, is it okay to put a bullet in their little baby heads, the superior people selected by Jehova him self, the Jews seem to think so, I dont.

[WarWolfPanzer88]

Originally posted by Rock
well I am talking about the school kids that trowh rocks at the soldiers, is it okay to put a bullet in their little baby heads, the superior people selected by Jehova him self, the Jews seem to think so, I dont.


Once again, the incursions into "Palestinian" territory are reactive moves in response to Palestinian provocations. If the IDF's intent was to simply kill palestinian civilians en masse, they could easily do so.

If you question this, please rememeber that those tanks can fire flechette shells and the helicopter gunships are armed with cannons and can be armed with anti-personnel rockets. And if course those F-16's (Israel has F-15's as well, and they are a more effective strike platform -- they haven't used them yet) can carry enough ordinance to destroy any Palestinian enclave. To date, they have not even come close to doing so.

The Israelis continually restrain themselves from the wholesale butcehry the palestinians accuse them of. This brings to mind the psychological defense mechanism known as "projection." This is where you take your own flaws and motives and accuse someone else of having them while denying their presence in you. This is just what the Palestinians are doing.

Now, let me ask you this: If bulldozing illegally built Arab homes is bad, is bulldozing illegally built Israeli homes in the settlements bad, too? The bulldozed houses in Jerusalem are admittedly built in violation of civil building codes and in some cases without ownership of the land. As for the Israeli settlements, I've seen the same people who condemn the bulldozing of Palestinian houses also advocate destroying the Israeli houses in the settlements. I'm just curious why one is good and the other bad. Additionally, how can you constantly whine about dead kids stupid enough to throw rocks at heavily armed troops and yet not mention the dozens of Israeli kids dead because of Arab terrorism?

Personally, I'm preparing for war. The day is not distant when the USA and the nations of Europe, yes, even those of the whole world, will shout: The Arabs are guilty for all our misfortunes. They must be called to account, and soon and thoroughly. Wherever the Islamic world touches the non-Islamic world, it murders people – Israel, northern India, western China, northern Africa, southern Europe, southern Russia, the Philippines. Europe – correctly called by Thomas Jefferson "nations of eternal war" – has allowed 50 million Muslims to immigrate. This is why there will be a Third World War in Europe, when they are expelled (this will occur within no more than ten years), as Spain expelled them centuries ago...

WarWolfPanzer88

[Rock]

southern Russia? can you explain further.

[PowerManDL]

Originally posted by WarWolfPanzer88

This is why there will be a Third World War in Europe, when they are expelled (this will occur within no more than ten years)

Can I put a couple of thousand bucks on this?

[Allen]

Rock, you're angering me.

Please get your facts straight.

These soldiers, who are mostly in their late teens, are protecting their country, and if a chalk full of kids are thowing stones at them because they don't have access guns, then yes, theese soldiers will retaliate. for the most part they are even using plactic coated bullets, but casualties will still occur. To label these kids innocent is absolutely ridiculous.

These "peace activists" are not peace activists at at all, anyone going in to visit one of the biggest terrorists in the world, Arafat, is by no means looking for peace. In any event, Israel implemented a rule saying there was to be no one entering the area, an area where there is a lot of guns being fired, yet these people went in anyway, going against what Israel said, and then when one or two gets hurt or arrested it's Israel's fault?!?!?

Gimme a break.

[Rock]

yeah I youre right, its allright to kill all little kids trowhing rocks, as long as they dont have a little hat on their heads.

[Allen]

You're a moron.

Firstly this doesn't occur daily, secondly, these kids are filled with hatred and are provoking 18 yr old Israeli soldiers by throwing dozens and dozens of rocks at them because they were told to do so by their parents, who send them out their knowing they probably won't come back.

Most of these kids do not get killed, but there have been incidents, and yes, it's a shame when anyone dies, but these kids are no better than the people who blow themselves up in Israeli supermarkets.

CASE CLOSED.

[Allen]

You make ti sound like soldiers sit at home with a bottle of beer in one hand and a sniper rifle in the other and take shots at little kids playing in the yard.

That is totally false.

Like I said, these kids go to the soldiers, throw rocks at them (have you ever had a rock thrown at you, rock?), and then expect no retaliation? Even then there is little violence. If these soldiers wanted to they could kill them all, but very few children have died, especially innocent ones. I do feel for the innocent ones that have died though, no matter where they're from.

[Praetorian]

i agree with allen...the isrealli soldiers don't shoot those "kids" for fun...

i think that u should read more Rock and get your facts straight...

[Rock]

they plant bullets in their heads like my mother plants strawberries in the garden.

[Praetorian]

perhaps, but they do it for a reason...

[WarWolfPanzer88]

Originally posted by Rock
southern Russia? can you explain further.

Ever hear of Chechnya, Rock? If you haven't, I don't think you have any buisness discussing world events; you simply don't know enough to carry any sort of discussion... I, too, agree with Allen: You're a damned fool.

WarWolfPanzer88

[body]

Rocks can kill people, if they hit you in the right place.

How many innocent babies died as a result of suicide bombers? sorry I forgot these babies where throwing stones in the shopping centres at the palestinan who were not even their.

Rock I did not see any babies being shot ( babies are like 2 years old, must could barely pick up a stone) .

BTW your a hypocrit for thinking all neo nazi should be shot, but paletstines area peace full race.

rock wrote" they plant bullets in their heads like my mother plants strawberries in the garden."

well hmm. do use the word strawberry as they are red, blood is red. to help emphasis a point. thats quite a biased analogy. using the word plant put emphasis on forcing the bullet into some head.
you should working in marketing.
do strawberry grow in norway?

well suicide bomber have down more blow up jobs than jemma jameson then.

[Gyno Rhino]

Israel is showing much restraint in dealing with this problem.

Rock, what should the soldiers do about the kids throwing rocks? They just gonna let them keep throwing until someone gets hit in the head and dies? They just gonna wait until one of them gets ahold of a gun, or bomb, or whatever? Hell no. Throwing a rock can be deadly. They are retaliating in self-defense.

[Allen]

What also pisses me off is that Bush has the nerve to tell Israel not to send in their troops to try and rid themselves of terrorists groups like Hamas, when he did the same in Afghanistan.

It's terrible how worried he is about oil.

[Gyno Rhino]

No kidding.

[PowerManDL]

Somebody should take a crowbar to all their knees.

[Allen]

6 months and the media has yet to be able to report from inside the war zone in Afghanistan, yet Israel is treating the press badly, hahaha.

[Black_Curtain]

I think this is a great post which uses facts and not propagnda and is able to easily convience one to to support Israel on this conflict.
:thmbup:

It is also interesting to watch someone who takes a fair share of his ideas from Nazi idology (Jews are communists? communist party has less than 1% support here in Israel), defending Israel and supporting ideas which are extreme pro- Israeli.

[Gyno Rhino]

Got another bomber today.

[Allen]

In Jerusalem. 5 killed.

It's ridiculous how a good portion of the world can criticise Israel for going into it's own land and destroying underground tunnels used to smuggle weapons, etc. and capture people behind suicide attacks on Israel. Israel has the right to defend herself, just like the US has been doing in Afghanistan.

[Gyno Rhino]

I really don't see the Palestinian side of this well. I mean, sure they have their squabbles and whatnot. But sending suicide bombers to harm unarmed civilians really can't be condoned, no matter the cause. I'm with Israel on this one.

[Allen]

This is a very interesting brief read.

http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/columnists/story.asp?id={0B6F2693-7EDC-41B0-A51C-02F97384EAC1}

[Reinier]

"The Palestinians are murderous psychopaths. The Israelis are protecting themselves with a level of force which is necessary to deter murderous psychopaths."

it`s wrong and not very intelligent to portray a people as murderous psychopaths.

Today our capital was jammed with protestors demonstrating for Israeli troups to be taken out of palestinian land.

a big reason the US is so pro israel is cuz jews rule the Us.
all high positions in the us are jammed with jews.

did you guys hear bush goin "i will not meet mr arafat until he more clearly speaks out against palestinian violence"

then why is he meeting mr Charon?
what the hell makes everybody think the palestinians are the big offenders and the israelites are only defending themselves?

its stones vs tanks for christs sake

[body]

i think some of the paentines have more than stones.

they are not that backwards of a people. stones have not been soley used in warfare for well over a 1,000 years.

the palentines will keep suicide bombing.
if you take out the ring leaders and destroy the communication network, then they will make there country safer.

[Allen]

Wow Reinier, I took you for an intelligent guy, my bad.

As for the first quote, history backs it up quite nicely.

Now as for your comments regarding "Israeli troups to be taken out of palestinian land."

Well, It's actually Israeli land which they conquered in '67, in a war which they did not start. Not to mention, one so easily forgets why Israel went into Jenin etc. in the first place. There was a rash of suicide bombings and there was nothing being done on the Palestinian side to stop it, let alone condemn it. Israel has gone in and captured WEAPONS and people behind the massacres, not stones, but guns, materials used to put together the bombs these suicide bombers used to blow dozens up in markets.

As for your comment about Jews ruling the US, well that is a bunch of bull****. Please cite proof of your conspiracy. Just look at the Jewish population, it is very scarce in numbers and has much less influence then you may think.

Why isn't he meeting Arafat?? Well, Powell will be, which I think is a disgrace to Bush's policy as well as a worldwide digrace, but the reason that he shouldn't is because Arafat is a terorist like Bin Laden, who is responsible for the death of thousands upon thousand of INNOCENT people.

Yes, Sharon may not be perfect, but what ex-general of an army doesn't have any blood on his hands??!
Sharon and the Israeli army do not go in and shoot at civilians. If they wanted to destroy the Palestinian people they could have, with regular weapons or using nuclear weapons, even though the European media would like to claim otherwise.

Your post troubles me very much and is a big reason why I started this thread to begin with. We have to understand that it is not "tanks vs. stones". That it is not Israel who is going into towns and blowing buses and cafes up. Israel, a tiny country which one can drive through in 5 hrs, is merely trying to survive in between Arab countries who teach their population that Jews drink the blood of non-Jews.

I'm truly disgusted.

[heathj]

The US is jam packed with Jewish people? Especially high up in command? I beg to differ.

[PowerManDL]

Good points Allen.

Reinier, I call em as I see em. I know not *every* Palestinian is a murderous psychopath. But the vast majority were trained from early on to hate Jews, and a very large percentage of them would willingly become suicide bombers.

IMO, this is a menace that is getting far less than what it deserves.

[the doc]

Like I said before, if Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians, they could have

absolutely not

were it not for the support of this country, the usa, the state of israel would NOT exist. The reason they had such a great military is because this country subsidized israel and its military to the tune of 10 billion $us. If they went to take out the palistinians, support for them would crumble in this country and they would be finished.

[the doc]

so allen suppose the situation was reversed, and the palistinians were occupying the state of israel with superiour military force in some way for almost 30 years. Would it be ok to shoot at israelis throwing rocks?

also, do not forget that the the jewish state has a terrorist history of its own

[Gyno Rhino]

It'd be JUST FINE to shoot at them, if they were training suicide bombers to blow up your wives and children.

If Texas was planning to destroy the other states, and was training people to kill inoocent civilians, wouldn't you hope that Oklahoma would DO something about it?

[Allen]

To reply to your first post, the correct number is from 3-5 billion. That doesn't detract from the fact that Israel trains its soldiers etc. etc.

Doc you sound like an uninformed 16 yr old boy (no offense Reinier). Israeli soldiers do not randomly shoot Palestinians, they are not Palestinian suicide bombers. Do not make it sound like the people these soldiers are protecting their country from are innocent. Yes, innocent Palestinians have died, and that is tragic, but Israeli soldiers do no go in and kill them intenionally. When you have militia such as members of Hamas and the Al Aqsa brigade living among civilians, plotting the next missile attack or suicide bombing because they do not want the state of Israel to exist, there is going to be civilains who are hit in the crossfire.
As well, if a boat load of Arab children are sent to throw hundreds of stones at you (no, the Israeli soldiers don't go house to house looking for these children with stones), you will defend yourself. Shooting these children is a last resort, it has happend though, but usually with rubber coated bullets.

Again, Israel is not fighting for the sake of fighting, nor are they going on the "offensive". When the leader of the Palestinian people is responsible for the death of thousands of innocent people, when he helps these terrorist organisations, when he smuggles urnaium, etc etc., there is going to be action taken against him. Israel has been extremely easy towards him.

Doc, the word occupying is an incorrect word. Like I said the territories of Gaza, Jenin etc. were conquered in a war which was brought upon by Israel's many Arab neighbours. As well, before '67 there wasn't peace.

Please reread my first post and the links to the articles I posted. It seems like you're in need of a good history lesson.

Again, the problem is that people make it seem like big bad Israel (yes, the same Israel you can drive across in 5 hrs and that has over a million Arbas living in it), is merely shooting at innocent people who only have stones to throw back at them. That's a total farce. It's bull****. Do some reading. Israel exists, and will continue to exist even if it is hit with more "homicide" bombings.

[the doc]

To compare me to a 16 yo is quite laughable. Your patronizing remarks are not welcomed.

Dont lecture me on history allen. I am quite well versed in the history of the region. With regard to the subsidies it is you who are wrong. The US subsidized israel directly to the tune of $10 B US in the hight of the cold war during the 80s. The current subsidy is only $3 B. Get YOUR facts straight allen.

Also, you are the one who needs to reread my post. where did i say that they are shooting children? All I said was that Israel would've been wiped out by the arabs if it wasn't for massive US military support. Why did we support them so? Because virtually all of the arab states were allied with the ussr. Israel was the only state receptive to american influence and support in the region. That is good. What is very bad is this state now thumbing its nose as the president demands their withdrawl

[the doc]

Originally posted by Allen
To reply to your first post, the correct number is from 3-5 billion. That doesn't detract from the fact that Israel trains its soldiers etc. etc.
****see above reply

Doc you sound like an uninformed 16 yr old boy (no offense Reinier).
***actually your the one throwing insults around like a little kid

Israeli soldiers do not randomly shoot Palestinians,
***incorrect, crossfire wounds are very random
they are not Palestinian suicide bombers. Do not make it sound like the people these soldiers are protecting their country from are innocent. Yes, innocent Palestinians have died, and that is tragic, but Israeli soldiers do no go in and kill them intenionally.
When you have militia such as members of Hamas and the Al Aqsa brigade living among civilians, plotting the next missile attack or suicide bombing because they do not want the state of Israel to exist, there is going to be civilains who are hit in the crossfire.


As well, if a boat load of Arab children are sent to throw hundreds of stones at you (no, the Israeli soldiers don't go house to house looking for these children with stones), you will defend yourself. Shooting these children is a last resort, it has happend though, but usually with rubber coated bullets.
****you didn't answer my question from above post. What is the roles were reversed? what if isaelis needed to resist an occupying force. You admitted yourself that they are indeed this. The West Bank and Gaza were indeed captured in war, and those area are not included in the internationally recognized borders of the state of israel. Thus they are OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.


Again, Israel is not fighting for the sake of fighting, nor are they going on the "offensive". When the leader of the Palestinian people is responsible for the death of thousands of innocent people, when he helps these terrorist organisations, when he smuggles urnaium, etc etc., there is going to be action taken against him. Israel has been extremely easy towards him.
*** I assume you mean Arafat. Well the only thing else they could do would be to kill him. DO you think that would help?



Doc, the word occupying is an incorrect word. Like I said the territories of Gaza, Jenin etc. were conquered in a war which was brought upon by Israel's many Arab neighbours. As well, before '67 there wasn't peace.
****see my above remark. They are clearly occupied territories. It was only recently that their has been succession of control

Please reread my first post and the links to the articles I posted. It seems like you're in need of a good history lesson.
***dont patronize me allen. I think you could learn some things yourself

Again, the problem is that people make it seem like big bad Israel (yes, the same Israel you can drive across in 5 hrs and that has over a million Arbas living in it), is merely shooting at innocent people who only have stones to throw back at them. That's a total farce. It's bull****. Do some reading. Israel exists, and will continue to exist even if it is hit with more "homicide" bombings.
****this attitude tipifies why there is such trouble in the region. Such hardheadedness on both sides leads only to more blood.

[Ironman15]

What the world needs now is love...sweet love.

[Neil]

Just came across this thread, it's very good reading.

[Gyno Rhino]

I think this would be a good basis for porn movies... Israeli soldiers versus 5'7", 36D women throwing rocks.. Just imagine what could happen with the barrel of a Galil.. *REOW*

[Praetorian]

The biggest mistake the UN and the Western World has done ; Israel...

[Gyno Rhino]

I disagree, Cent. Israel is really quite an amazing accomplishment. Sure, things are hostile. But we knew they would be. It just goes to show that the power of MOOLAH can go a long way.

[Praetorian]

the jews have nothing to do down there. It's just like if the UN carved out a space in USA and gave it to the Monogolians and called it Mongolia.
Sure, you can say that it is "the promised land" for them, but c'mon....thats just pure bull*****...

The reason for placing Isreal down there was to weaken the arabic influence in those parts. Keep in mind that the Middleeast is one of the richests places on Earth when it comes to petroleum. An united Arabic-Coallition would be much more difficult to manipulate, then a weak one...that is where Isreal comes into the picture. When the US placed Isreal in the Middleeast, they automatically reduced the arabic influence in those parts, furthermore, increasing their own power trough Isreal, which is a muppet of the US, so they got a stronghold around the rich petroleumfields.


pardon me for my english, but i'm kinda tired now, and i have to study for my exams..

[Gyno Rhino]

Originally posted by Centaurion
The reason for placing Isreal down there was to weaken the arabic influence in those parts

I agree, for the most part. Which is why I'm saying it is a great accomplishment. :) It's like putting a hot chick in the middle of a bunch of drooling convicts. But she hasn't had her cherry popped just yet, she's holding out for a big man that she thinks can "understand her". Well, that's quite a tangent, but anyway..

[Praetorian]

that just points out how manipulating the US is...

[Gyno Rhino]

I know. Which is what I said, goes to show how far MOOLAH can go. :)

[Allen]

Wow, you are so off.

Firstly Doc, you tiptoe around points you can't argue with you.

Secondly, I was not talking about the "hight" of the cold war, I was reffering to now, and presently they give Israel an estimated 3-5 billion.

Centaurian, are you aware that there is not one drop of oil in Israel and that despite what your silly mind thinks there have been Jews living there for quite some time. To say that "the jews have nothing to do down there" is utter stupidity. If it wasn't for Israel or the land of Israel before it beame a state in 1948, then many many many hundreds of thousands of Jews would have perished starting from the late 1800 pogromes in Europe to WW1 to WW2.

If you would like to start your own conspiracy theories, that's fine, just don't be upset when I shoot them down.

[Gyno Rhino]

If you think that the Israel wasn't put in place to help fuel U.S. interests, you're missing a piece of the puzzle.

[Allen]

To say that Israel exists only because it serves America's interest is wrong.


Doing business with Saudi Arabia, now that helps America's interests.

[Gyno Rhino]

I didn't say that it's the only reason (or I didn't mean for it to come across that way). But it is a very large reason, and the major contributing reason to its military power.

[Praetorian]

stupid ****...off course I know that there isn't oil in Isreal. But HELLOOO WAAAAKE UP boy...

Isreal is strategically located in an area close up to where there are large quanteties of petroleum...why do you think it is so? Why do you think that the US supports Isreal with billions of dollars each year, and in addition provides the IDF with the newest weaponary and military technology? Is it because the US is so "nice" towards allies?

HELL NO!

They are doing it in order to upset both the politacally and the military balance in that region. "Why?", you might ask...They are doing this because an united Arabic-Coaliton (the OPEC-countries) would have a monopoly when it comes to petroleum.

Besides there are many other factors comming into play here, but I'm not going to discuss those with an arogant prick as you. But just study US Foreign politics in the 20th century, and you might just understand....

[Allen]

I disagree.

Obviously it's a factor, but don't make it seem like it's why Israel exists. Check out how much money Palestinians get from the Arab world, the problem is it goes right into corrupt people's pockets.

[Gyno Rhino]

I think it is the main reason why Israel exists. The U.S. (and it's puppet, especially a while back: the U.N.) will not do things in the interest of the people of that region. They'll do it in the interest of people in our region, the U.S. region. The U.S. wouldn't have messed with it if there wasn't alot in it for them. By playing around with and "throwing a wrench" in the region, they stand to gain.

[the doc]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Allen
To reply to your first post, the correct number is from 3-5 billion. That doesn't detract from the fact that Israel trains its soldiers etc. etc.
****see above reply

Doc you sound like an uninformed 16 yr old boy (no offense Reinier).
***actually your the one throwing insults around like a little kid

Israeli soldiers do not randomly shoot Palestinians,
***incorrect, crossfire wounds are very random
they are not Palestinian suicide bombers. Do not make it sound like the people these soldiers are protecting their country from are innocent. Yes, innocent Palestinians have died, and that is tragic, but Israeli soldiers do no go in and kill them intenionally.
When you have militia such as members of Hamas and the Al Aqsa brigade living among civilians, plotting the next missile attack or suicide bombing because they do not want the state of Israel to exist, there is going to be civilains who are hit in the crossfire.


As well, if a boat load of Arab children are sent to throw hundreds of stones at you (no, the Israeli soldiers don't go house to house looking for these children with stones), you will defend yourself. Shooting these children is a last resort, it has happend though, but usually with rubber coated bullets.
****you didn't answer my question from above post. What is the roles were reversed? what if isaelis needed to resist an occupying force. You admitted yourself that they are indeed this. The West Bank and Gaza were indeed captured in war, and those area are not included in the internationally recognized borders of the state of israel. Thus they are OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.


Again, Israel is not fighting for the sake of fighting, nor are they going on the "offensive". When the leader of the Palestinian people is responsible for the death of thousands of innocent people, when he helps these terrorist organisations, when he smuggles urnaium, etc etc., there is going to be action taken against him. Israel has been extremely easy towards him.
*** I assume you mean Arafat. Well the only thing else they could do would be to kill him. DO you think that would help?



Doc, the word occupying is an incorrect word. Like I said the territories of Gaza, Jenin etc. were conquered in a war which was brought upon by Israel's many Arab neighbours. As well, before '67 there wasn't peace.
****see my above remark. They are clearly occupied territories. It was only recently that their has been succession of control

Please reread my first post and the links to the articles I posted. It seems like you're in need of a good history lesson.
***dont patronize me allen. I think you could learn some things yourself

Again, the problem is that people make it seem like big bad Israel (yes, the same Israel you can drive across in 5 hrs and that has over a million Arbas living in it), is merely shooting at innocent people who only have stones to throw back at them. That's a total farce. It's bull****. Do some reading. Israel exists, and will continue to exist even if it is hit with more "homicide" bombings.
****this attitude tipifies why there is such trouble in the region. Such hardheadedness on both sides leads only to more blood.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I fail to see how I tiptoed around anything. I confronted your main points directly. As a matter of fact I think you cant come up with an intelligent response to this.

in addition i reiterate my previous post


To compare me to a 16 yo is quite laughable. Your patronizing remarks are not welcomed.

Dont lecture me on history allen. I am quite well versed in the history of the region. With regard to the subsidies it is you who are wrong. The US subsidized israel directly to the tune of $10 B US in the hight of the cold war during the 80s. The current subsidy is only $3 B. Get YOUR facts straight allen.

Also, you are the one who needs to reread my post. where did i say that they are shooting children? All I said was that Israel would've been wiped out by the arabs if it wasn't for massive US military support. Why did we support them so? Because virtually all of the arab states were allied with the ussr. Israel was the only state receptive to american influence and support in the region. That is good. What is very bad is this state now thumbing its nose as the president demands their withdrawl



Once again, without the massive support of the US israel would've been wiped out by the arabs in the 67 war. Who do you think provided them with weapons, the soviets???
In addition, many of those weapons being used now (such as apaches, f16/15 fighters, and missiles) were given to the israelis during the cold war.
Now when the US president tells israel to jump, they should ask "how high?"

Now i ask you allen, from what propaganda machine do you get your facts?

[Rock]

Cenaturion is 100% right.

I am just wondering how hard a 8 year old boy can hit a soldier helm with a little rock in his little hand?, The Isreali soldiers I have seen on TV, have said that it is their O R D E R S to kill the kids, that exist close to their posts, playing soccer or whatever they do, Cenaturion also told me this because he saw the same thing, and we have seen that on the freakin news a zillion times, infact your news channels often edit and sensor stuff, so its not strange that you guys think its disturbing to read this. what happend 1000-2000years ago and who fought who is bananas, the modern conflict was started when palestine land was claimed.

[Matx]

some people just dont know when they're beat.

[Rock]

If Israel took a bit of norway and said, jewish people only, hush get away, I would fight to death.

[Allen]

Wow you are very very foolish.

Yes, of course the US has a lot of say, but it has a lot of say everywhere in the world.

BTW, Bush told Sharon to jump, and well, you guessed it, he didn't jump.

Simply by asking Sharon to do that, it makes Busha hypocrite.

Rock, you anger me tremendously.

ISRAEL and its soldiers do not shoot at little boy and girls. They also don't send in 18 yr old girls to blow themselves up in market places. They also don't tech their kids that Arabs drink Jewish blood during the holidays etc etc, unlike their conterparts.

Rock, reread the hisotyr post. There was never a Palestinian state. GEEEZ.

Not omly that but the land was offered to be split in two before '48, yet the Palestinians refused.

Propoganda machine Doc?!?
I haven't said anything you can't go and research yourself from reputable texts.

Also, you twisted my random comment. I meant soldiers do not go out and pickkids at random and shoot them. Yes, some children are hit in the crossfire, but that is because Israeli soldiers are defending themselves against Arab militia responsible for organising attacks on Israel.

anyway, there's more and more, but I must be heading out now.
I will get to more of your comments later.

[Rock]

the israeli soldiers anger me to, to bad CNN sensors everything for you in your biased little world.

I know,..... its State number 51, didnt you know?

[Allen]

Wow you are so stupid.

Not only is there freedom of press in Western society but there is what we call alternative media, which is not CNN, but other sources.

There is reputable sources on the internet, local news, etc. etc.

You can try and spread lies all you want, but that does not take away from the fact that Israel exists, and will always exist.
Also, your point about Jews and Norway was moronic and way off. Like I said, of the approximately 8 million people who live in Israel, over a million of them are Arabs, then there's Christinas and other religions too, not to mention there was never a Palestinian state before Israel came about, hence it's a bad comparison to Norway, which is an existing country. How many times do I have to get that through your thick skull???
However, in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran,Lebanon, Syria etc. etc. where Jews who had lived there for ages, were driven out, yet Arabs do live in Israel. Also, you want to talk about propoganda, read the Arab world's papers. The media there is controlled through their government and is CENSORED, they do not have freedom of press, we do!

To say CNN censors things without proof is utterly mornoic. I can't believe I'm even attempting to converse with you.


I don't even know what I'm arguing about aymore.
I started this thread to dispel false "facts", not to start a war of words.

The fact is Israel, most recently Sharon and Barak have offered to give almost all of the land which was conquered during the '67 war, but there needs to be an assurance of peace in return, which Arafat won't do. Arafat doesn't want peace, he wants all of Israel. His actions speak louder than his muffled words, words which have to be demanded of him anyway by the likes of people like Powell.

BTW Doc, what they could have done to him was arrested him and tried him for the murder of thousands, but time and again they give him chances to settle things, yet he spits in their faces.

[Gyno Rhino]

Originally posted by Rock
If Israel took a bit of norway and said, jewish people only, hush get away, I would fight to death.

Okay then. Fight back to the death, and when you get shot by soldiers, it's justified from their side.

if you're willing to fight to the death for a cause that is faulty and futile, then violence is the only thing you'll encounter.

The Palestians do not want peace, they want land. The Israeli's are defending themselves.

[Gyno Rhino]

Originally posted by Allen
The fact is Israel, most recently Sharon and Barak have offered to give almost all of the land which was conquered during the '67 war, but there needs to be an assurance of peace in return, which Arafat won't do. Arafat doesn't want peace, he wants all of Israel. His actions speak louder than his muffled words, words which have to be demanded of him anyway by the likes of people like Powell.

BTW Doc, what they could have done to him was arrested him and tried him for the murder of thousands, but time and again they give him chances to settle things, yet he spits in their faces.

Damn straight. This is the grit of it all. Israel is DEFENDING their country. The Palestinians are ATTACKING. And people go ape-**** when they hear that some little kid got shot because he was throwing rocks? ****. Rocks now, but if he could get ahold of an AK47, he'd be using that. If he had bombs strapped to his chest, he'd use that. Israel is simply protecting its own country and people. Arafat and Co. are killing innocent civilians.

If the citizens of Sweden came into Norway, blew themselves up in crowded grocery stores, killing women, children, etc... Wouldn't you HOPE TO GOD that the Norwegian military would DO something, Rock?

[Allen]

Exactly Gyno.

The difference is Israel is not invading anybody. They recently went in to their own territory to snuff out terrorist organisations and WEAPONS used to cause violence against Israel.

Yet when these militants refuse to surrender and fight with GUNS and ROCKET LAUNCHERS, and they die, Israel is looked upon as the bad guy!

Ridiculous.

[Allen]

lol.

It's all Norways fault for fighting back, they should allow the Swedes to plan these attacks, go into Norway and blow themselves up on crowded buses and streets. Then if Norway has the AUDACITY to fight back, the world should paint them as monsters.

[Rock]

So Tearing down palestine and kill potensial bombers is the solution?
Will bombers stop after this? they are still blowing them selfs up arent they?

[Allen]

Actually there would have been more than a few suicide bombings in the last couple of weeks if not for what Israel has done.

[Rock]

Allen, did Norway take over swedens areas and say hush your not jewish! no we didnt? so why should the swede blow them self up?
And any nation that attacks norway will have to beat us in the mountains, and that my friend is impossible.

[Praetorian]

allen ; why are you so pro-Israel?

[Allen]

I'm pro logic.

Rock,nor did Israel take over a Palestinian state, there was never a Palestinian state, and exile them, like I said over a million Arabs live in Israel. How many Jews are left living in Lebanon, Syria, etc. etc.?? (there were big Jewish communities in those areas in case you didn't know)
the answer is NONE.

You proved my point though, you would expect Norway to defend itself.

[body]

Originally posted by Centaurion
the jews have nothing to do down there. Sure, you can say that it is "the promised land" for them, but c'mon....thats just pure bull*****...

The reason for placing Isreal down there was to weaken the arabic influence in those parts. Keep in mind that the Middleeast is one of the richests places on Earth when it comes to petroleum. An united Arabic-Coallition would be much more difficult to manipulate, then a weak one...that is where Isreal comes into the picture. When the US placed Isreal in the Middleeast, they automatically reduced the arabic influence in those parts, furthermore, increasing their own power trough Isreal, which is a muppet of the US, so they got a stronghold around the rich petroleumfields.



since when did the US place isreal?
the american like to claim credit for everything but Britian had the mandate on isreal to 1948. Britian supported the idea of a jewish state since 1917. The middle east was not exactly rich in 1917. Oil was not so important then as it is now. Plus Birtian ruled lots of the oil producing countries then anyway with Iraq, kuwait, UAE. ( well mandates and protectarates.)

Britan agreed with the jews to give some land to them and some to the arabs. the arabs refused.

plus we sold weapons to isreal as well, though suadi give us a fair bit of cash as well.

you need to look further back in history. the usa did not have so much influence now as it did then.

the jewish faith is far older than the muslim faith as well.

[the doc]

Originally posted by Allen
....
Propoganda machine Doc?!?
I haven't said anything you can't go and research yourself from reputable texts.

Also, you twisted my random comment. I meant soldiers do not go out and pickkids at random and shoot them. Yes, some children are hit in the crossfire, but that is because Israeli soldiers are defending themselves against Arab militia responsible for organising attacks on Israel....

BTW Doc, what they could have done to him was arrested him and tried him for the murder of thousands, but time and again they give him chances to settle things, yet he spits in their faces.


So arafat is a murderer of thousands, well the same could be said about Sharon. Do not forget HIS activities in Lebanon. It is unfortunate that Israel is losing the moral high ground, which they used to firmly stand on.

My point is this. The issue could be solved immediately. Here's how. Israel gives up all settlements in the west bank, and its claim to jeruselem as its capitol. The palistinians give up any "right of return" of refugees and cedes israels right to exist.
Israel completely divests itself of the palistinian areas. These wounds will take a long time to heal. its not like they formed overnight.
In addition, allen, you need to take a deep breath and calm down. Emotion antagonizes objectivity- and you are showing the results. Israel has its own responsibility for the current situation. Your emotion blinds you to any fault that they have made.

[PowerManDL]

The problem is that I doubt Palestine will do that. They don't just want their captured territory back. They want Israel gone.

[the doc]

the worst part is the two sides have chosen the most hardheaded, stubborn, and poorest leaders possible.

Jeeze the only worst thing would be to get the hammas leader paired with bibi netanyahu

[Allen]

Doc, my emotions have nothing to do with my logical arguments, but thanks for your concern.

Your solution would be nice if it would work. It was proposed many a time by Israel that it would be willing to give up the West Bank, Gaza, etc. for peace, but like I said, these proposals were spit on by Arafat. Sharon, may not be the most popular man, but there were leaders before him, and they made more than generous proposals to Arafat, but no...

Israel cannot simply give up the land, especially with no guaruntee of peace. It has to protect itself; there needs to be some sort of buffer zone.

As far as Jerusalem not being Israel's capitol, well that will never happen and should never happen. It is the holiest of holy places for Jews, plain and simple.

Doc, I don't know where you get the audacity to claim the problem in the Middle East has such an easy solution, when great great men before you and even presently are unable to come up with a working solution.

Like Powerman said, Arafat, Israel's Arab neighbours, etc. do no want Israel to exist.
How can you negotiate with countires who have clearly stated that they don't want you to exist??!

BB Netanyahu, while he was not my favourite, is ccertainly not comparible to a Hamas leader.

[ElPietro]

I'm bored so I thought I'd pop my head in here. Doc I don't see how you think there can be any split down the middle. This has very little to do with land. That is simply an excuse...there would be something else undoubtedly. This is religiously motivated...how many suicide bombers are recruited to gain back land? From my dealings with many muslims, I see that in many cases they feel like jews don't have the right to exist. Not all, and probably not even close to a majority feel this way, but the ones that do are obviously fanatical in their belief. So in this situation I cannot see a compromise. If there is a moral highground it would be that it seems like Israel is seeking an end to this carnage much more vigorously than palestine. But if there is a relentless enemy that seems to never stop in its quest for your death there aren't very many options. Most of you approved or begged the US military to carpet bomb the Afghans back into the stone-age after the WTC disaster...this kind of terrorism is a continuous part of history along this tiny strip of land, yet you feel they should refrain from action.

If I was jewish I sure as hell would be afraid to live in my own homeland. I've never checked on this but I wonder what the birth rate versus death rate is in that country...perhaps when there are no more jews left in Israel we will finally see the light.

[body]

isreal growth rate = 1.8% in 1994.
life expcatncy
men =74
women =78.
this includes both jews and arabs, with jew making up about 80% of the pop.

[body]

splitting country down the middle does not work, look at india and africa nations.
those straight borders in africa left by european antions did not some of those countires good.

There is worse atrocities going on in africa I think? But they are not seen as important in the news as those countires have less money?

[the doc]

FOr those of you who doubt me, that very plan was proposed by former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak in a recent NY times op-ed piece.

This plan will work if two things happen. The arabs need to pressure arafat- they bankroll his activity. The US and european community need to pressure israel. We bankroll their activity (especially the settlements)

Incidently the arab states have unanimously agreed to a similar plan offered by the saudis at the recent arab summit.


allen and EP see following

[the doc]

Originally posted by Allen
Doc, my emotions have nothing to do with my logical arguments, but thanks for your concern.
**OK

Your solution would be nice if it would work. It was proposed many a time by Israel that it would be willing to give up the West Bank, Gaza, etc. for peace, but like I said, these proposals were spit on by Arafat. Sharon, may not be the most popular man, but there were leaders before him, and they made more than generous proposals to Arafat, but no...
*** i agree arafat is a problem, but arab pressure would solve that. Sharon though is currently as much an obstacle to piece as arafat


Israel cannot simply give up the land, especially with no guaruntee of peace. It has to protect itself; there needs to be some sort of buffer zone.
***there would be secure protected borders under the previous plan. Israel has NO RIGHT to those occupied lands- they are certainly not within the borders sanctioned by the US, UN, or EC.


As far as Jerusalem not being Israel's capitol, well that will never happen and should never happen. It is the holiest of holy places for Jews, plain and simple.
***this one gets me. Where do jews come off with this idea that they are the only ones with rights to jerusalem. This city is one of the most important city to the billions of christians in this world and Muslims as well. The mandate that created Isreal created TEL AVIV as the capitol....Jerusalem should be an international City-State similar to vatican City. It should be an open city, with all welcome and no religion dominant. Indeed this is what the Pope and many other religious leaders support



Doc, I don't know where you get the audacity to claim the problem in the Middle East has such an easy solution, when great great men before you and even presently are unable to come up with a working solution.
***timing is everything


Like Powerman said, Arafat, Israel's Arab neighbours, etc. do no want Israel to exist.
How can you negotiate with countires who have clearly stated that they don't want you to exist??!
***this is incorrect. The arab states laid out exactly what must happen for full recognition for Israel and is reflected in my previous post


BB Netanyahu, while he was not my favourite, is ccertainly not comparible to a Hamas leader.
****in terms of a commitment to peace, they are comparable. Actually, BB sounds more like a pre-war Slobidan Milosevic

[the doc]

Originally posted by ElPietro
I'm bored so I thought I'd pop my head in here. Doc I don't see how you think there can be any split down the middle. This has very little to do with land. That is simply an excuse...there would be something else undoubtedly. This is religiously motivated...how many suicide bombers are recruited to gain back land?
*** this is largely a nationalistic struggle for them. Arafat and his organization are a secular group. Only hamas and Islamic Jihad are religious (formally).


From my dealings with many muslims, I see that in many cases they feel like jews don't have the right to exist. Not all, and probably not even close to a majority feel this way, but the ones that do are obviously fanatical in their belief. So in this situation I cannot see a compromise. If there is a moral highground it would be that it seems like Israel is seeking an end to this carnage much more vigorously than palestine. But if there is a relentless enemy that seems to never stop in its quest for your death there aren't very many options.
***true but there seems to be a way out


Most of you approved or begged the US military to carpet bomb the Afghans back into the stone-age after the WTC disaster...this kind of terrorism is a continuous part of history along this tiny strip of land, yet you feel they should refrain from action.
*** i was not saying these things



If I was jewish I sure as hell would be afraid to live in my own homeland. I've never checked on this but I wonder what the birth rate versus death rate is in that country...perhaps when there are no more jews left in Israel we will finally see the light.
**** there is conclusive demographic evidence that arabs and palistinians in israel will eventually become the majority population- thus ending israel's term as a "jewish" state

[body]

Originally posted by the doc

this one gets me. Where do jews come off with this idea that they are the only ones with rights to jerusalem. This city is one of the most important city to the billions of christians in this world and Muslims as well. The mandate that created Isreal created TEL AVIV as the capitol....Jerusalem should be an international City-State similar to vatican City. It should be an open city, with all welcome and no religion dominant. Indeed this is what the Pope and many other religious leaders support



you mena like mecca is open to all religons?

[the doc]

no, mecca is an islamic area. Jerusalem is important to all three religions, Jewish, christian, and islam

[body]

Originally posted by the doc
If I was jewish I sure as hell would be afraid to live in my own homeland. I've never checked on this but I wonder what the birth rate versus death rate is in that country...perhaps when there are no more jews left in Israel we will finally see the light.
**** there is conclusive demographic evidence that arabs and palistinians in israel will eventually become the majority population- thus ending israel's term as a "jewish" state



that depends on where the borders end up. also just becuase the palenstines are more 3rd world devleopment level, like african nations with high birth rates. just becuase they have more kids does that mean they have more rights?

[body]

Originally posted by the doc
no, mecca is an islamic area. Jerusalem is important to all three religions, Jewish, christian, and islam

the vatican is not important to muslims, but they can go their.

[the doc]

well it would become like aparteid

[body]

well speaking to south arfican people I know most said the country was better off under the apartied. this includes black people as well.

[PowerManDL]

The point about WTC and our actions in Afghanistan is very valid.

We screamed for blood, and boy did we get it.

Let me ask a question: Would any of you object to good old fashioned pound 'em to dust US retaliation to Palestine if they were to start doing to us what they do to Israel?

I *highly* doubt it. And I highly doubt there would be anything left of Palestinian terror organizations either.

Its a matter of perspective. We don't have to deal with psychos killing our friends and family members on a daily basis. Remember how we felt watching the Trade Centers? I sure do. Were it happening to us, I doubt any of you who are objecting to Israel's actions would complain.

[Gyno Rhino]

There you go, Power. Dead on. Alot of people that are posting crap about those poor little kids or whatever..

Humans are capable of "empathy". Now FRIGGIN USE IT! I posted earlier about Swedes suicide bombing Norway. How would you feel, Rock? Power summed it up nicely. Israel's wives, children, grandparents, etc, that have nothing to do with any of this are being killed. Solve the problem. Israel has TRIED to negotiate with Arafat. In all honesty, I'm amazed that Israel hasn't just destroyed the whole damned lot of them. If it were the US in Israel's position, you better believe Arafat would be gettin' the living **** beaten out of him.

[Allen]

----Quote:
***there would be secure protected borders under the previous plan. Israel has NO RIGHT to those occupied lands- they are certainly not within the borders sanctioned by the US, UN, or EC.
----

No right?? Conquering land in a war, a war where they lost many soldiers, that doesn't give them a right to have the land?! Like I said earlier, occupied is the wrong word, conquered is more appropriate.
The land didn't even belong to the Palestinians before the war. In any event, like you said yourself, Barak, along with Rabin and others have proposed peace. However, there has been no attempt at peace form the Arab side. Israel can't negociate with themselves.

Quote:
***this one gets me. Where do jews come off with this idea that they are the only ones with rights to jerusalem. This city is one of the most important city to the billions of christians in this world and Muslims as well. The mandate that created Isreal created TEL AVIV as the capitol of Jerusalem should be an international City-State similar to vatican City. It should be an open city, with all welcome and no religion dominant. Indeed this is what the Pope and many other religious leaders support

Firstly, the "sacred" mosque in Jerusalem was built on the ruins of the Jewish temple. Secondly, similarly to any democratic country, Israel and thus subsequently Jerusalem is open to anybody who wishes to visit. Yes, the primary religion in Israel is Judaism, but the primary religion in America is Christianity, that does not mean people cannot visit the its cities if they are of another religion.

Quote:
***this is incorrect. The arab states laid out exactly what must happen for full recognition for Israel and is reflected in my previous post

Laying out plans maybe, but actually carrying out what they say is something they have not done. Israel has existed since 1948, and they have yet to really recognise Israel. Leaders of these Arab countries have been quoted saying that they do not want Israel to exist, and then suddenly Israel is supposed to accept some plan drawn up by these anti-semitic countries, while simultaneously Arabs are blowing themselves up in Israeli markets!? PLEASE

Quote:
**** there is conclusive demographic evidence that arabs and palistinians in israel will eventually become the majority population- thus ending israel's term as a "jewish" state

Can you show me this conclusive evidence?

[the doc]

No i cannot. It was reported 1-2 months ago both by the new york times and NPR news- suffice to say it dealt with the much higher birth rate for palistinians vs israelis

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by the doc
No i cannot. It was reported 1-2 months ago both by the new york times and NPR news- suffice to say it dealt with the much higher birth rate for palistinians vs israelis

I don't get the relevance of this whatsoever. So if chinese people move into the US and start multiplying like rabbits will that one day make the US part of the republic of china? I'm not surprised that palestinians will one day overpopulate the area. Trading one suicide bomber for a room full of people in a restaurant sure does hurt population growth. Again this is an insignificant point.

As I, Power, Gyno and others have stated, this is worse terrorism and human atrocity than 10 WTC attacks over the past years. Yet we comfy on our couches watching the news take the lives of others so far away much more lightly since it doesn't hit so close to home.

I think morally speaking, it would be towards the greater good to solve this problem even in an immoral fashion, as the outcome would be for the good of all. But then I guess your country wouldn't be able to profit as easily of the unrest in the area. I don't pretend to be an expert, but somethings seem quite clear, despite what media may portray. Ending this age old conflict at any cost is probably better than allowing generations to go throw life not knowing what it's like to walk across the road without hearing rounds fired off...or eating in fear that the next guy through the door has 10lbs of C-4 strapped to his chest, and religious zeal in his eye. I guess it's easy to dismiss all this as we read our papers over with our mocha frappachinos.

[the doc]

my point is that unless israel disengages from the west bank totally, they will be overwhelmed by the masses of people.
If they retreat to the pre 67 border then they are assured of maintaining a majority jewish land

[the doc]

my point is that unless israel disengages from the west bank totally, they will be overwhelmed by the masses of people.
If they retreat to the pre 67 border then they are assured of maintaining a majority jewish land

also, i agree that they have a right to defend themselves. I am looking past the current situtation to what happens afterwards

[WarWolfPanzer88]

"Yes, I wish it were possible that we could recall the prize," Hanna Kvanmo told the Agence France Press. Ms. Kvanmo serves on the five-member committee that gave Yasser Arafat the 1994 Nobel Peace prize. She's not alone in her sentiments. "I cannot hide my deep disappointment and despair," committee member and Oslo bishop Gunnar Staalsett lamented, agreeing that the Peace prize should be withdrawn. Odvar Nordli, former Norwegian prime minister and another committee member, concurred.

Of course, none of these people are referring to Arafat. They sigh with the contentment of an artist gratified by a work well completed when they contemplate Arafat's blood-soaked paws stroking the prize: "Ahhh," they seem to be saying, "we at least got that one right."

No, Ms. Kvanmo's "wish" is that Arafat's corecipients, Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres, would return their prizes. Well, not Rabin, since he's dead. But Peres should give it back, say these moral titans, because he has remained in Ariel Sharon's government while it manages to stop kamikaze bombers from blowing up the citizens who elected it.

My views regarding the European political and intellectual elite have gone from mere contempt to palpable disgust.

Even the glow of the synagogues burning on soil already well fertilized with the viscera of Jews is paled by the bonfire of hypocrisy now raging in capitals across Europe. Recall last December, when France's ambassador to England, Daniel Bernard, referred to Israel as "that shi**y little country," asking, "Why should the world be in danger of World War III because of those people?"

The United States might have asked a similar question when Hitler's army marched into France for a lunch eagerly served by a nation of waiters. Indeed, if we had asked such a question all those years ago, France might have been able to indulge its well-documented enthusiasm for sending Jews to concentration camps to such an extent that there would be no Israel left for Bernard to despise (Mr. Bernard has never apologized for, or denied, the comment).

When 19 Islamic fanatics killed thousands of Americans, to the cheers of the "streets" of the Islamic world, the president of the United States repeated over and over what has now become at best a well-intentioned, but ultimately fatuous, cliché: "Islam means peace." When synagogues in France were set ablaze by Arab brown shirts, Prime Minister Jospin regretted that it would be "extremely difficult" to protect French Jews wherever they gather in large numbers. And when French authorities captured three Moroccan-born fire bombers, the prosecutor explained that the "confused" youths "had been drinking quite a lot" and were simply "acting based upon what they had seen in the news." Poor kids, someone sing 'em a few bars of "Officer Krupke" in French-accented Arabic and send them to bed without croissants and Turkish coffee.

With prosecutors like this, no wonder the French find it "extremely difficult" to protect Jews where they gather. Indeed, as the Wall Street Journal recently pointed out, that's probably how they feel in Tel Aviv these days too — not that the French or the Nobel committee give a damn.

No, the problem with intellectuals and activists — on both sides of the Atlantic — is the inability to understand what the difference between good guys and bad guys is. Not just in the Middle East, but in the world in general.

I keep imagining how people would react to a movie about the events of the last year. An incredibly rich madman — enormously popular throughout the Middle East — orchestrates the mass murder of thousands of Americans. The day it happens, news cameras catch men and women joyously celebrating in various parts of the Arab world. In response to the most successful (but not sole) attack by the madman's well-financed and committed terrorist organization, America responds by attacking the villain's mountain stronghold, liberating the oppressed nation we find there.

Meanwhile, Israel — a staunch ally of the United States, and the only democracy in the region — is besieged by suicide bombers who have been brainwashed by fanatical cults. These terrorist groups load up glassy-eyed teenagers with explosives, nails, and bullets and convince them to seek out large clusters of women and children. This is all permitted — and sometimes orchestrated — by a veteran terrorist strongman who had in the past helped to orchestrate the murder and kidnapping of Israelis and Americans, including the Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics. Moreover, in America's last war, this would-be tyrant supported our enemy, Iraq, which now gives cash bounties to the families of suicide bombers.

And — just to really flesh out the nefariousness of this secondary villain — he also sucked up to the Soviets during the Cold War. And (for those of you who like historical dramas) his predecessors cheered for the Nazis — and, even today, Nazi-inspired literature is churned out by his aides for the indoctrination of young children. It may sound over the top, but truth is stranger than fiction.

Much like the Americans who traversed the globe to defend themselves, the Israelis are eager to do the same in their own backyard. And while Osama bin Laden slipped away from his bunker in Tora Bora, the Israelis have their enemy cornered.

So, here we are, halfway into what on paper sounds like a predictable Jerry Bruckheimer flick. You'd think it would end with America opening up the arsenal of democracy for some full-tilt boogie for freedom and justice. You'd certainly expect the Israelis to wipe out the terrorist cells in their country and then, with a jaunty nod, join up with their American friends to finish the job.

However, the Europeans and our own lefties have been shifting in their seats uncomfortably and shaking their heads. They don't like some of the "simplistic" messages in the film. They don't like the "cowboy diplomacy." They don't like the script and, quite frankly, they really don't like America or Israel. And so they're taking over the rewrite.

Their story line is much more "nuanced," their tale much more "complicated." And while it doesn't involve a starving poet discovering his muse by having a bisexual love affair with two anomie-ridden clerks at a used-book store, it's no less typically "European." In their version, the terrorists have "reasons" for what they do. And, you see, if you smoke filterless cigarettes and receive checks from the government for not working, you are more likely to believe that "reasons" and "excuses" are the same thing.

In this new version the villains — like other European icons such as Che Guevara or Fidel Castro — are actually heroes. These heroes challenge the dominant paradigm. They make America look bad. And they trade in the true coin of the realm in the EU — white, post-colonial guilt — and with it buy an unending supply of sympathy.

I know that life isn't a movie. But life, like movies, benefits from moral clarity. The war on terrorism began with it and it is now melting away. There is certainly room and reason to be critical of Israel. But, for the most part, the arguments used to denounce Israel and cheer Arafat strike me as little more than moral Styrofoam, holding the form and shape of an argument but actually crushable with very little effort.

Few arguments marry self-righteousness and absurdity so magically as the one that says Israel must be in the wrong because more Palestinians are dying than Jews. "First, there is a number; the number is 1,200 and counting of Palestinians dead. There's a number of Israeli dead, 420…" exclaimed Rashid Khalidi of the University of Chicago on NPR's Talk of the Nation last week. "That is the number of people who have been killed. Now maybe the Arabs are not human. Maybe the fact that Arabs are being killed by Israelis is completely coincidence."

It's not a coincidence, it's the logical consequence of the fact that the Israelis have built a better army than the Arabs have. They did this because Arabs kept attacking Israel, trying to destroy it. Equating every dead Palestinian gunman with every murdered Israeli is absurd. Sure, Israelis kill innocents from time to time. But it isn't intentional. When the Israeli Defense Forces accidentally killed the family of a leading suicide-bomber recruiter, thinking he would be in the car instead, the IDF apologized. Can you imagine Hamas apologizing to a senior Israeli officer when it killed his family? Of course not. Because Hamas aims for the families. When they succeed, they celebrate.

Regardless, it is a tragedy that anyone is dying — but only those who have made guilt a religion, or the sand-poundingly ignorant, would believe we keep score this way. Might may not make right, but that doesn't mean lack of might makes right either.

Germany lost more people in World War II than America did. Does that mean America was wrong and Germany was right? Somali casualty rates were something like 50 to 1 in the "Black Hawk Down" incident. Does that mean the Somalis were 50 times more "right"? Such inverted moral logic is the triumph of guilt over reason. I don't know if cops kill more criminals or criminals kill more cops every year, but either way, I am not confused about who are the good guys and who are the bad.

The Palestinians aren't criminals and they aren't necessarily bad guys. But the people "leading" them, specifically Yasser Arafat, are. They're bad guys. Period.

Which is why the next Styrofoam argument is so intellectually offensive. "How is Yasser Arafat supposed to stop suicide bombers when he's holed up in his compound?" Lord, how many times have one of Arafat's enablers asked some version of this question?

The answer is, "Who cares?" When we put a mob boss in jail, we don't whine to the prosecutor, "How do you expect Don Corleone to be able to stop the Mafia from killing people from jail when he can't even use his cell phone?" This bizarre bending of the moral space-time continuum assumes that it's wrong to punish or constrain evil people who do evil things because it will make it more difficult for them to stop further evil from being done. We put the Holocaust to an end by chasing Hitler into his bunker, not by letting him out and cutting him a check. Similarly, the Israelis have stopped the suicide bombings for the moment, but you can be sure that if Arafat is released, they will begin again.

If this movie is too simplistic for your tastes, walk out to the lobby and smoke a Gauloise with your art-house friends. You'll know when to come back when you hear the applause from the Nobel Prize committee.

And for the record, Rock, the Norwegian army is one of the world's great laughing stocks. That in mind, I was laughing my ass off when you wrote this: "...and any nation that attacks norway will have to beat us in the mountains, and that my friend is impossible." If I'm not mistaken, Norway is the fifth most defeated nation in post industrial-age history, after France, Turkey, Austria, Bolivia, and Egypt. Norway makes warfare a joke.
I have a lot of friends in the spec-ops community. One of them is an ex-SAS operator who worked with the Norwegian special forces (I think it was the Oppklaringseskadronen recon squadron -- not sure, though)... he happened to think that they were the most inept and unprofessional soldiers he ever worked with. I find your bravado hillarious, all told.

/WarWolfPanzer88

[WarWolfPanzer88]

The following was a note sent out by my wife's womens church group. It has some interesting history:

Apparently, Benjamin Netanyahu gave an interview and was asked about
Israel's occupation of Arab lands -- his response was "It's our land."
The reporter (I think it was CNN or the like) was stunned -- read below
"it's our land..."

The following material was written by an American
Christian professor.

It's important information to know since we don't get fair and accurate reporting from the media and facts tend to get lost in the jumble of daily events.

Crash Course on the Arab Israeli Conflict
Here are overlooked facts in the current Middle East situation.

These were compiled by a Christian university professor.
Takes just 1.5 minutes to read!!!! It makes sense and it's not slanted. Jew and non-Jew it doesn't matter.

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E., the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples'
lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by eight
separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

These are incredible times. We have to ask what our role should be. What will we tell our grandchildren we did when there was a turning point in Jewish destiny, an opportunity to make a difference?

Additionally, the Camp David II talks ended when Arafat rejected the compromise. This compromise involved returning about 95% of the occupied territories to an autonomous Palestinian state. Most of the settlements would be annexed by Israel, and about 50,000 Israelis would end up in Palestine with the option to stay. Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip would be abandoned. There were allowances for return of refugees (both pre-1948 and pre 1967) to return, but with quotas. There would be international compensation for those who would be forced to resettle and those who chose not to return. There were also limitations regarding armaments, militarization and alliances placed on Palestine, as well as security zones. It was agreed this compromise was compliant with UN resolutions 242 and 338. So why was this peace proposal rejected by the Palestinian Authority?

The Turks ruled the region as part of the Ottoman Empire prior to WWI and sided with the Germans during that conflict. The establishment of a Palestinian state for the Arabs of the area was part of Partitioning, an agreement they made with the British. UN resolution 181, which calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state, was originally rejected by the Arabs because it also established the Jewish state of Israel. During the 40's and 50's nearly all Jews, an estimated 1 million, had to flee from their homes in various Arab states to avoid persecution compared to an estimated 600,000 Arab ("Palestinian") refugees displaced after the war of independence in 1948. From 1948-1952 alone the population of the then new Israel doubled from 600,000 to 1.2 million. The influx of Jewish refugees to Israel was into an area about 1/649th the size of the Arab nations (20,770 sq. miles vs. 13.5 million sq. miles). This doesn't include the Jewish refugees from Eastern Europe. There have never been any considerations given to these Jewish refugees in any peace proposal. The Jews were simply driven out of the Arab states -- where they had been for centuries. No compensation was offered, none has ever been offered. It's as if they never existed. This silence gives just a little hint as to how skewed Palestinian Arab justification for their continual war aganist the Jews really is.

Personally, I want this mini-war to kill thousands on both sides. That's not realistic, though, so I'm supporting the side that has both moral superiority and an inclination to get Jews out of the USA.

WarWolfPanzer
14/88

[Rock]

you should take a trip to Auswitch with my grandfather, then we will see how you much you will 1488.

[Gyno Rhino]

You know, you put up two long posts about how Israel is more-or-less justified in defending its own countryfrom terrorism.. Which I totally agree with..

Then you post some ******ed **** about siding with the one that wants Jews out of the USA. *sigh*

[Allen]

Gyno, I was thinking the exact same thing.

Wolfe writes two very articulate posts, then goes on to finish with the comment you reposted above.
Mind boggling.
Wolfe, while I admire your knowlege, I don't see how you can think that the continuation of a Jewish state will drive out Jews from the USA.

However, thanks for the posts, they were exceptionally informative.

[WarWolfPanzer88]

Well, I happen to like Jews, at least on a personal level, and think that the evil of the liberal Jewish establishment is not reflected in most ordinary Jews... On this I could be wrong, but it is my working hypothesis. Also, while I happen to be a National Socialist ( -- you can't help but respect their valiant stand against Bolshevism and international finance capitalism...), I'm not blind to justice and logic -- which is one of the reasons I support the morally superior Zionists.

My hope is that Western civilization, and particularly its culture of freedom and rule by the consent of the governed may be saved in the years to come. Said civilization is a unique product of the white race, which is why I am a white racist, though only a 'soft core' one.

/WarWolfPanzer88

[Allen]

so you're a bigot?

[Praetorian]

WarWolfPanzer88 ; good post, but I've got to disagree when it comes to the Norwegian Spec-Ops. The team you mentioned is not one of the elites.

In Norway there are 3 different Spec-Op groups, first of all you have the "Marinejegere", which is the equelent (sp?) of the Navy SEALs, but in addition are trained to defend the oil platforms. Then you have the "Fallskjermjegere", almost the same as Delta Force, but they concentrate on parachuting into hostile territories and more specialized in infiltration and sabotage. And finally you have the " Beredskapstroppen". They are a Counter-Terrorist unit.
All of these Spec-Op teams are especially trained in winter warfare and in guerilla tactics. They are pure and simple the elite, nothing you say and do can change that.

The Norwegian militarty is kinda unique and special. Instead of conentrating on regular, conventional troops, like most of the countries today, the Norwegian army mainly relies on specially trained elite groups. For example for the coastal defence, we don't have hude turrets and bunkers, but a team which is specialized in coastal defence.
There have been several budget cuts, but the money to the Spec-Ops have continued pouring in.

Besides, can you tell me why Norwegian Spec-Op teams were specially requested by the US to fight in Afganistan, if they in fact are as bad as you say...? Why did the Joint Chiefs of Staff request Norwegian Spec-Op teams when they have the SEALs, Delta Force and Army Rangers...? Sure they are also in Afganistan, but not in the very front line as the Norwegian Spe-Op teams.

So do not talk about things you don't have a ******* clue about...

[Allen]

Sorry Cent, but Wolfe backed up his points very well, and like he said, history speaks for itself.

[Allen]

There were also elite Canadian units requested by the Americans to go into Afghanistan, that doesn't mean Canada has a strong military.

[hemants]

"I am a white racist, though only a 'soft core' one."

That's some weird ****e man.

Anyhow, if you think that skin pigmentation and genetic predisposition to democracy are cause and effect then I'd be curious to know why.

If it's just a coincidence then remember that the same thinking would lead you to believe that aids is a computer virus.

[Praetorian]

Originally posted by Allen
Sorry Cent, but Wolfe backed up his points very well, and like he said, history speaks for itself.

WTF are you talking about? I agreed that he had some good points, but that on about the Norwegian Spec-Ops is just pure.

He is saying that a guy he knows trained with a semi-elite force, and because of his opinion the entire Norwegian Spec-Op force sucks ass.... And "Oppklaringsskadronen" is not an elite force. They are just like Marine Forward Recon Teams. And the marines are no elite....just tougher than regular soldiers.

And yes Candian Spec-Op teams were also requested, but the Canadian military is a conventional army, not an elite based one as the Norwegian.

[WarWolfPanzer88]

Originally posted by Centaurion
WarWolfPanzer88 ; good post, but I've got to disagree when it comes to the Norwegian Spec-Ops. The team you mentioned is not one of the elites.

In Norway there are 3 different Spec-Op groups, first of all you have the "Marinejegere", which is the equelent (sp?) of the Navy SEALs, but in addition are trained to defend the oil platforms. Then you have the "Fallskjermjegere", almost the same as Delta Force, but they concentrate on parachuting into hostile territories and more specialized in infiltration and sabotage. And finally you have the " Beredskapstroppen". They are a Counter-Terrorist unit.
All of these Spec-Op teams are especially trained in winter warfare and in guerilla tactics. They are pure and simple the elite, nothing you say and do can change that.

The Norwegian militarty is kinda unique and special. Instead of conentrating on regular, conventional troops, like most of the countries today, the Norwegian army mainly relies on specially trained elite groups. For example for the coastal defence, we don't have hude turrets and bunkers, but a team which is specialized in coastal defence.
There have been several budget cuts, but the money to the Spec-Ops have continued pouring in.

Besides, can you tell me why Norwegian Spec-Op teams were specially requested by the US to fight in Afganistan, if they in fact are as bad as you say...? Why did the Joint Chiefs of Staff request Norwegian Spec-Op teams when they have the SEALs, Delta Force and Army Rangers...? Sure they are also in Afganistan, but not in the very front line as the Norwegian Spe-Op teams.

So do not talk about things you don't have a ******* clue about...

Oh, come on! Norway's system obviously doesn't work, for if it did, you'd have a better history. I've never heard of the US requesting assistance from any Norwegian infantry/SF unit before, either. I've heard of them asking for aid from the SAS, the SBS, from the men of Germany's GSG-9, France's GIGN and Israel's Sayeret Matkal -- hell, even from the French Foreign Legion's Paratrooper squad -- but never from Norway's in-experienced and under-funded 'elite'. NOBODY outside of Norway thinks that your SF units are worth a damn. If they were, and if your military's organization was as effective as you imply, you'd have more victories under your belt. I repeat: Norway makes warfare a joke.

If you would, please back up your claims with sources in English.

/WarWolfPanzer88

[Gyno Rhino]

Originally posted by Centaurion
Besides, can you tell me why Norwegian Spec-Op teams were specially requested by the US to fight in Afganistan, if they in fact are as bad as you say...? Why did the Joint Chiefs of Staff request Norwegian Spec-Op teams when they have the SEALs, Delta Force and Army Rangers...? Sure they are also in Afganistan, but not in the very front line as the Norwegian Spe-Op teams.

The reason that he requested them is because he didn't want the Rangers and SEALs and so forth to die. :) You said it yourself. The Rangers and so on are in Afghanistan, but not in the very front line as the Norway boys. Why? Cause America gets pissed when our soldiers die. But America don't give much of a crap if Norway folks bite it. Sad, but true.

[Praetorian]

you ******...when was the last time Norway was in war? Norway is a friendly and a peace benevolent country, therefore we have not been in a war since the ******* nazi motherfukcers invaded Norway in 1940.
"We would have more victories under our belt!.." !? What kinda crap is that. HELLLOOO we live in the 21st century, a civillized country does not wage war. Hell, look at Germany..they started both WWI and WWII and they got ****ed everytime. What does that say about the Wehrmacht? And what happened to Wotan? They got ****ed everyone of them...So as a conclusion you can say that the German military sucks cock....hmm can't you?
That is what you are doing, comparing Norway's SF to those pathetic forces that exsisted back then....

And dude, you might want to read the newspapers, and perhaps watch CNN. A while ago they mentioned the norwegian SF contribution in Afganistan. Do a litte search. I'm not going to do that for a nazi ****.


Gyno Rhino ; JCS requested norwegian SF teams because they are specialized in Artic and mountain warfare. And they fact that they are some kickass mofos. Just wait, I'll be joining them soon, and then i'll tell you first hand how it is.



I'm out...

[body]

out of curosity are these middle eastern countries still killing kurds? and still have discriminatory legislation (in turkey) on them?

If these arabs are so peace fairing, they are even killing other muslims. so what chance do another religon have?

[Praetorian]

yeah the Kurds are hunted all over the place...Kurdistan is just a piece of horse****...

[hemants]

Kurds are either freedom fighters or terrorists depending on where they are.

Turkey is a US ally and therefore the Kurds there are terrorists.

On the other hand, the Kurds in Iraq are obviously freedom fighters.

They are the same kurds by the way but which side of the border they are on determines their correct label.

[body]

thanks

[Praetorian]

by the gods below.... Especially for you Wolfie, I'm going to do a search about the Norwegian SF and post the results. So stay tuned...

[Gyno Rhino]

Originally posted by Centaurion
Gyno Rhino ; JCS requested norwegian SF teams because they are specialized in Artic and mountain warfare. And they fact that they are some kickass mofos. Just wait, I'll be joining them soon, and then i'll tell you first hand how it is.


*chuckle* I was joking (for the most part) about the Norway troops being sent to die. I'd think that they WOULD be a good choice to send to Afghanistan, because of the mountain training. I don't agree with WW about Norway's special forces being crappy. I'd imagine that most any special forces will be formidable. Granted, some ARE better than others (Israel's troops come to mind), but that still doesn't mean that they don't whoop ass.

Are you really going to try to be in the military?

[Gyno Rhino]

Norway has also provided a number of special forces to the operation “Enduring freedom”. The special forces are experts in winter operations, and will take part in recon, offensive operations and will provide military assistance.

This taken from www.norway-un.org

Granted, it doesn't prove anything about their "elite" status in comparison with other troops, but it does show that they are in Afghanistan, and there for good reason.

[Blood&Iron]

Originally posted by Allen
so you're a bigot?
Did no one realize this?

WarWolfPanzer88?

Wolf was a nickname for Hitler. Panzer is pretty obvious.

Wotan mit uns? -> "Odin/Wotan with us"

Uh, sorta a dead giveaway...

14 -> 14 words -> "We must secure a homeland for white children and white civilization."(That ain't it--obviously as that ain't 14 words--but the phrase is close to that.)

88 -> H is the 8th letter of the alphabet -> HH -> Heil Hitler

[WarWolfPanzer88]

Originally posted by Centaurion
you ******...when was the last time Norway was in war? Norway is a friendly and a peace benevolent country, therefore we have not been in a war since the ******* nazi motherfukcers invaded Norway in 1940.
"We would have more victories under our belt!.." !? What kinda crap is that. HELLLOOO we live in the 21st century, a civillized country does not wage war. Hell, look at Germany..they started both WWI and WWII and they got ****ed everytime. What does that say about the Wehrmacht? And what happened to Wotan? They got ****ed everyone of them...So as a conclusion you can say that the German military sucks cock....hmm can't you?
That is what you are doing, comparing Norway's SF to those pathetic forces that exsisted back then....

And dude, you might want to read the newspapers, and perhaps watch CNN. A while ago they mentioned the norwegian SF contribution in Afganistan. Do a litte search. I'm not going to do that for a nazi ****.



How foolish of you to poke fun at the German war machine! They practically rolled over all of Europe. Norway wasn't a particularly hard fight for them, in any event. The German people were also the most fit in the world at the time. They literally marched on foot on all of their conquests. It was possible for a single soldier to walk to Russia, then down through Greece, on to Africa and back to Germany. Talk about low body-fat! ;)
As for their special forces, the Waffen-SS practically defined the word 'elite'. Many people get the Waffen-SS and Allgemeine-SS mixed up, the latter was the pussy wanna-be thug cops, while the former was an elite fighting unit comprised of some of the most highly trained soldiers of the war. Their combat doctrine was way ahead of its day. And although they have committed atrocities, atrocities have been committed by almost every unit in times of war... the US has committed a few of its own, but it’s just kept really quiet. (As an aside, there was actually a French-Jewish volunteer unit within the Waffen SS. This unit was known as the Charlemagne squadron.)

"A civillized country does not wage war." Huh?! Whatever happened to the viking spirit? Reading your sentence, I cannot help but feel that Norway has been thoroughly feminized...


/WarWolfPanzer88

[Allen]

"And dude, you might want to read the newspapers, and perhaps watch CNN."

But, as someone ever so wise told me on this board, CNN is filled with "propoganda" and is the "51st state".

lol

In any event, I like the fact that once Cent and Rock's arguements regarding the Middle East were torn into shreds, they switched subjects.

[Gyno Rhino]

B&I - Look earlier in this thread, we know he's a Neo-Nazi.

Everyone: The Germans were the best military unit in the world during WWII. Best technology, best armor, best firepower, best troops, etc. They just made a few mistakes: opening the war on two fronts - effectively surrounding themselves, rushed into things, and the biggest reason that all of Europe ain't called Germany right now.. It's just too hard in this modern world to conquer the world by force. You need to use MOOLAH, and words, and maybe even religion to do so.

Anyone denying that Germany was INCREDIBLE.. Well, they're denying the truth. Of course, the reasons behind it were bunk.. but still.

And no one can deny that Hitler was not an INCREDIBLE military leader and orator. Again, his reasons were horrible, but he was still fascinating and talented.

[body]

Hitler - did have some good health policies.

he made it illegal for pregant women to smoke and police were not allowed to smoke on duty.

hitler was one of the most charamatic people ever.
remeber the world was a different place back in the 1930's and 40's, most nation were not overly keen on jews then or homo's as well.

[Allen]

I don't know why this discussion has shifted to one of the most disgusting people to ever gcome about. Sure, he was a good speaker, charsimatic etc, but he also came about at an excellent time in history, the depression was happening, people in Germany were starving, there were terrible restrictions put on them, etc,. and it also helped that America was not quite a hegemon yet, and was unwilling to get involved until later on.

In any event, I'm still sort of weirded out that Wolfe is sharing unbiased facts about the situation in the Middle East.

Again, Centaurian, civilised countries often do go to war. If civilised countries did not go to war, the uncivilised ones would be the world powers at the moment.

[Praetorian]

Originally posted by WarWolfPanzer88



How foolish of you to poke fun at the German war machine! They practically rolled over all of Europe. Norway wasn't a particularly hard fight for them, in any event. The German people were also the most fit in the world at the time. They literally marched on foot on all of their conquests. It was possible for a single soldier to walk to Russia, then down through Greece, on to Africa and back to Germany. Talk about low body-fat! ;)
As for their special forces, the Waffen-SS practically defined the word 'elite'. Many people get the Waffen-SS and Allgemeine-SS mixed up, the latter was the pussy wanna-be thug cops, while the former was an elite fighting unit comprised of some of the most highly trained soldiers of the war. Their combat doctrine was way ahead of its day. And although they have committed atrocities, atrocities have been committed by almost every unit in times of war... the US has committed a few of its own, but it’s just kept really quiet. (As an aside, there was actually a French-Jewish volunteer unit within the Waffen SS. This unit was known as the Charlemagne squadron.)

"A civillized country does not wage war." Huh?! Whatever happened to the viking spirit? Reading your sentence, I cannot help but feel that Norway has been thoroughly feminized...


/WarWolfPanzer88


Off course the Wehrmacht rolled over Europe, but you have to look at both the economic and politacal climate in Europe around 1937-38.

The entire European continent was recovering from the WWI and in some countries, such as Norway, the military was not being funded as it should have been, because of the believe that they would never get attacked. And most of the countries were exhausted after the WWI and there was 'peace-mood' in Europe. Just look at the British PM before Churchill (I don't remember his name), he did everything he could to stop a war from breaking out.
This attitude combined with the Blietzkrieg tactics used by the Wehrmacht and brilliant generals made it possible for the Wehrmacht to conquer a good portion of Europe. Had it not been for Hitler's stupid powerhunger, the Third REich would have been around for a while, but anyways, what happened when the UK and the US started giving sufficent funds to the military? The once mighty and proud Wehrmacht got screwed over big time.

You are right about Waffen SS. Just look at their defence of Monte Cassino. It is legendary. That in itself shows truly how 'elite' this unit was. And furthermore you are right about the German soldiers being fit as hell, even today the GSG-9 has the thoughest training program of the elite forces in the world.

Now to your last comment.
The Viking-spirit is there, but I know how to control it. I am being civilized, after all, I live in a 'white' country, don't I? This statement of yours shows how a twisted person you are. Here you are preaching that the white folks, such as yourself, are more civilized than the others, but at the other hand you are urging me to find my 'viking-spirit' and wage war. A nice paradox, isn't it?


Okey... I've been searching the web for info on the 'Marinejegere', but it is quite hard to find some info about them in English. This is what I've found so far.

http://home.no.net/pgrostad/Mjeger.html

http://home3.inet.tele.dk/jdj/spec_ops/count/norway.htm


read and learn...

[EDIT : uuuh and Wolfie...you say that the Norwegian military sucks, but who was it that stopped Hitlers plans on getting a nuclear bomb? If my memory seves me correct, Company Linge destroyed a heavy guarded german transport in Norway with a vital component to the german nuke-project. And thus prevent Hitler from getting the nuke before the US]

and yes, Gyno. I plan to join the Norwegian SFs. Why do you ask?

[Praetorian]

Gyno Rhino ; Hitler himself was not a brilliant military tactician, he was just a charismatic leader, that knew how to play on people's fears. It was his generals that were brilliant.

[Allen]

He surrounded himself with "brilliant" people, and that shows something about the man, if we can even call him that.

I wish the Sayeret existed back then.

[Rock]

the dirty job in dessert storm, who do you think did that, norwegians with balls of steel.

Our military is very much alike the early viking armys, the viking armys consisted of few, hardend and elite warriors divided into multiple groups with different tasks.

And Man Cenaturion your norwegian nationalism warms my hart.

[Gyno Rhino]

Originally posted by Centaurion
and yes, Gyno. I plan to join the Norwegian SFs. Why do you ask?

Cause I wanted to wish you luck and tell you that you can do it. :)

[Gyno Rhino]

Originally posted by Centaurion
Gyno Rhino ; Hitler himself was not a brilliant military tactician, he was just a charismatic leader, that knew how to play on people's fears. It was his generals that were brilliant.

You are correct. When referring to Hitler's military genius, I did not mean that he solely played out battles or anything like that. I meant that he chose brilliant generals, chose good general strategies, and knew who to count on. And that can be harder than winning the battle itself. He was brilliant, charismatic, twisted, and corrupt as hell all in one. Like I said, a fascinating character.

[Gyno Rhino]

Originally posted by Rock
the dirty job in dessert storm...

What? You mean spraying on whipped cream? Scooping ice cream? Icing cakes? Baking pies? What?


Oh, oh.. You mean DESERT storm.. Gotcha.. ;)


hehe...

[Allen]

hahahaha

pass the pudding storm

[Allen]

BTW, if I haven't already mentioned it before, Powell meeting with Arafat was a disgrace to America and the world, and completely hypocritical of the US's and especially Bush's policies.

[WarWolfPanzer88]

Originally posted by Centaurion

[EDIT : uuuh and Wolfie...you say that the Norwegian military sucks, but who was it that stopped Hitlers plans on getting a nuclear bomb? If my memory seves me correct, Company Linge destroyed a heavy guarded german transport in Norway with a vital component to the german nuke-project. And thus prevent Hitler from getting the nuke before the US]


Congratulations! You've won the 'stupidest post of the day' award! A) the Germans on August 6, 1945 did not believe that the Allies had exploded an atomic bomb over Hiroshima that day; (B) they never succeeded in constructing a self-sustaining nuclear reactor (I should add that this is due to the fact that they simply didn't know how at the time, and not because Company Linge 'destroyed' anything); (C) they were confused about the differences between an atomic bomb and a reactor; (D) they did not know how to correctly calculate the critical mass of a bomb; (E) they thought that "plutonium" was probably element 91.

Point 'D' is perhaps the most important, for throughout the war Heisenberg seemed to have believed that many tons of the rare isotope uranium-235 or of plutonium -- an impossible quantity for any country to obtain -- would be needed for a bomb, rather than the tens of kilograms actually required. "I consider it perfectly possible that they [the Allies] have about ten tons of enriched uranium," Heisenberg said, "but not that they can have ten tons of pure U235."

Heh, all things considered, Company Linge had no effect on the German nuclear project. In all honesty, I don't know what idiotic propaganda they're feeding you over there...

/WarWolfPanzer88

[Gyno Rhino]

WW is right, to an extent. There's very little chance that even with reception of the materials and so forth that the Allies destroyed, Germany would have created an atomic weapon.

What Germany WAS going to do, however, was build a rocket capable of reaching the United States and beyond. And they were well on their way when the site was actually destroyed by Allied forces.

But WW is right, the Germans didn't have the know-how to create an atomic weapon, and the materials made no difference in that case.

Funny how a country that's over-run by Jews ended up making an atomic weapon before Germany, eh? Yeah, yeah, I know where Oppenheimer & Einstein and crew were from originally, but that matters not. America welcomes ALL races & creeds. Germany at that time obviously did not. And look who built the bomb.

[Gyno Rhino]

This was pulled off of thirdreich.net

>3) Why was [SIC] the German scientists behind the Americans in founding the
>atom bomb?

The Germans did not alot a high priority to the project, partly because so many of the pioneers had been Jews, and acknowledging their work would have been too insulting. The idea of an atomic bomb had been around for several years at least, but was considered inpractical.

---

So there you go. Persecution of the Jews is one reason that Germany didn't build the ultimate weapon.

[Blood&Iron]

Originally posted by Gyno Rhino


Funny how a country that's over-run by Jews ended up making an atomic weapon before Germany, eh? Yeah, yeah, I know where Oppenheimer & Einstein and crew were from originally, but that matters not. America welcomes ALL races & creeds. Germany at that time obviously did not. And look who built the bomb.
This is certainly a large part of why Germany never built a bomb. Perhaps more important, however, was that Hitler was less than enthused about the earth under his rule being "transformed into a fiery cinder" and consequently relatively little of Germany's resources were devoted to the project.

[PowerManDL]

Question of the Day:

If Germany had developed nukes and at some point after D-day dropped them on New York and Washington, would we have surrendered?

[Gyno Rhino]

Hell nah. We could wipe them out at their source. No reason to give up when you already have them by the throat. (IMHO)

[WarWolfPanzer88]

Well, I don't think we would surrender... but if the Germans nuked London, Britan probably would've thrown in the towel. Remember that up concern over a German A-bomb had been much stronger in Britain than in the United States during WWII.

/WarWolfPanzer88

[body]

I will vouch for most people in britian, its better to carry a german passport than have you populations and building basically as ashes. high population density nations do not stand up well to nuke attack. harder to invade. but not to nuke.

america would have stood better as the germans would have had to get to your country which is far more spread out, these nukes are not easy to carry around.

[Gyno Rhino]

That's why the German long distance rockets were such a threat

[Praetorian]

Company Linga blew up a heavy guarded transport of 'tungtvann', i don't know what that is in English, but directly translated it is called 'heavywater'. A vital component in a nuke-program.

i'll try to look it up in a dictionary when i get one.

and if germany had nuked london, the us would probably have nuked germany back to the stone age...

[WarWolfPanzer88]

Well, German nuclear efforts during World War II did concentrate on using heavy water to moderate a reactor using natural uranium. But I should add that 'heavy water', D20, is nothing more or less than water in which both hydrogen atoms have been replaced with deuterium, the isotope of hydrogen containing one proton and one neutron. While D20 is essential for the production of tritium and 6LiD, two ingredients of thermonuclear weapons, it is present naturally in water, and is thus extremely easy to come by if you know how to 'produce' it. Destroying one transport without destroying the technical infrastructure required to seperate the deuterium from water wouldn't have had much of an effect on the German nuke program; they could have created more whenever they liked...

For the record, the Germans had no reactor-grade graphite (graphite containing less than 5 ppm boron and with a density exceeding 1.50 gm/cm 3 ), so their project was doomed to begin with, heavy water notwithstanding.

/WarWolfPanzer88

[Praetorian]

there is a large natural concnetration of heavy water here in Norway...and I think that Company Linge blew up the factory producing heavy water as well as the transport.

i'll do a little search.

[Mystic Eric]

Hey, sorry to detract from this great discussion, but I was wondering, where abouts do you live WarWolf? I'd love to "meet" you one day.

[Praetorian]

uuh and Wolfie...it really doesn't matter if the german nuke-program was doomed or not. But what matter is that Company Linge blew up a HEAVY GUARDED GERMAN TRANSPORT and the factory as well. Let me remind you that Company Linge was not a regular force, but a Norwegian 'elite' force with base in the UK. And their numbers were far fewer than the germans.
Those guys were smuggeled in from UK, blew up the transport and then extracted...what does that say about the Norwegian SFs?

You are saying that Norwegian SFs sucks, but if they do, how in the hell did they managed to blow up a large heavy guarded german transport?

[WarWolfPanzer88]

I didn't say that they 'sucked'. I have utmost respect for every spec-ops soldier. What I did say, in effect, was that modern Norwegian SF soldiers do not figure among the world's best... at least in my opinion and those of the people I have spoken to. (And since the Norwegian armed forces is supposedly based on SF units, this is a rather damning fact...) Of course, there is no absolute best. Spec Ops is by its nature mission specific, so who is best has to be qualified by mission and possibly handicap. Exp. Jungle or Mountainous Rescue, probably USAF ParaRescue; Counter-Terrorism, DELTA or Sayeret Matkal; Counter-Insurgency, SAS and Special Forces; destroying armed convoys, Ghurkas, Company Linge; etc. ;)

So, what are we discussing here?

Foreign Internal Defense?
Strategic Recon?
Counter-terrorism?
Civil Affairs?
Psychological Warfare?
Deep Penetration Raids?
Airfield siezure?
Counter-revolutionary warfare?
Guerilla Warfare?
Setting up E&E Nets?
Hostage situations?
Deep weather penetration?
Downed pilot assistance?
Aerial insertion and support of ground SOFs?
Maritime raids?
Ship seizure?
Maritime counter-terrorism?
Seaborne and underwater insertion and support of ground or maritime SOFs?

Bottom line: The Norwegians only do very few of the missions above. The French do a few more. The British, Israelis and Russians do most. Only the Americans have troops to do all.

The best SOF?

USSOCOM - United States Special Operations Command


/WarWolfPanzer88