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vdizenzo
07-27-2008, 08:16 AM
I keep reading that meal frequency does not make a difference in metabolism. So many suggest that eating just a few meals a day will suffice. My question is what if your protein consumption is over 300 grams a day (I weigh 295)? If I only ate 3 times a day that would be 100 grams of protein per meal. My understanding is that my body would not be able to utilize 100 grams of protein in one sitting. Is this true? Lastly, people say the time in which you eat does not matter. So does that mean nutrient timing with your training does not work?

Ben Moore
07-27-2008, 08:52 AM
There are always going to be schools of thought both ways. It is my understanding that you can't use over 40-50g of protein at a time. I'd say keep doing what you're doing if you feel you're getting results.

RedSpikeyThing
07-27-2008, 08:58 AM
Here (http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=61836) is some information on pre/during/post workout nutrition. As far as I know that whole "you can only eat x amount of protein" thing is a myth. It doesn't just disapear....your body is smarter than that. Berardi writes a lot about meal timing and its importance in body composition.

ryuage
07-27-2008, 11:03 AM
If you are finding it hard to fit x amount of protein in a short period of time then it only makes sense to split it up into smaller meals. As far as utilization of the protein in large amounts, your body is smart it will know what to do with x amount of protein no matter how much you take in at one sitting. In terms of "metabolic boosting" properties of meal frequency that is bunk as the TEF will almost be the same depending on meal size... smaller meal size = lower, larger meal size = larger TEF (Thermic Effect of Food) in the end the energy expenditure will be the same according to amount of food whether that be 2 small meals or 1 large meal. My take on pre/during/post workout nutrition is that as along as you had a meal within a reasonable time before training that you can be more lenient in terms of post workout nutrition. As far as during workout nutrition that will all depend on your volume and how much time you spend in the gym.

Tennessee Mike
07-27-2008, 01:23 PM
Consuming 50-60 grams of protein at one sitting is ok for a 250-300lb guy,but most of us assimilate about 30-35 grams at a time.I eat every 2 and a half hours.

bjohnso
07-27-2008, 02:35 PM
Consuming 50-60 grams of protein at one sitting is ok for a 250-300lb guy,but most of us assimilate about 30-35 grams at a time.I eat every 2 and a half hours.

Do you have anything to back that up?

RhodeHouse
07-27-2008, 03:47 PM
Cenzo,

You look better than you ever have. You're starting to get the side ab outline. You're on track. No skinny pencil-neck scientist cantell you that eating 8-10x a day is bad. They're skinny and have no idea what they're talking about.

Dude, you're nutrition is dead on. SFW!

vdizenzo
07-27-2008, 05:17 PM
Cenzo,

You look better than you ever have. You're starting to get the side ab outline. You're on track. No skinny pencil-neck scientist cantell you that eating 8-10x a day is bad. They're skinny and have no idea what they're talking about.

Dude, you're nutrition is dead on. SFW!

Thanks. All hail Mayor Rhodes! You'd be proud, I ate some wings today. Of course I did cardio afterwards like a complete wuss.

Tennessee Mike
07-27-2008, 05:58 PM
Do you have anything to back that up?

Yeah,my word.Because Ive been training and eating for size for 19 years.What,you want me to google some skinny scientists report?The bigger you are,the more you need.Thats why the average protein shake is 25 -35 grams.How many protein servings are 60 grams?None unless you double the dose.

You obviously get a hard on from calling me out.Sorry to tell ya,but you should just shut up and listen for a change.

RedSpikeyThing
07-27-2008, 06:45 PM
You obviously get a hard on from calling me out.Sorry to tell ya,but you should just shut up and listen for a change.
geez he asked for a reference. Chill the **** out.

bjohnso
07-27-2008, 08:01 PM
Yeah,my word.Because Ive been training and eating for size for 19 years.What,you want me to google some skinny scientists report?The bigger you are,the more you need.Thats why the average protein shake is 25 -35 grams.How many protein servings are 60 grams?None unless you double the dose.

You obviously get a hard on from calling me out.Sorry to tell ya,but you should just shut up and listen for a change.

Do you offer financial advice by any chance?

RhodeHouse
07-27-2008, 08:59 PM
Big Mike,

i love how skinny guys have the insecurity to call big guys out on what REALLY works. Good times, bro.

ryuage
07-27-2008, 09:14 PM
Big Mike,

i love how skinny guys have the insecurity to call big guys out on what REALLY works. Good times, bro.

nobody called out anyone... Mike made a reference that a person can only assimilate X amount of protein in one sitting. Someone simply asked for a reference to this claim. No advice or criticism was given to anyone that would warrant what is being said.

deeder
07-27-2008, 10:13 PM
And so... WBB's transition to bro-science is complete.

ryuage
07-27-2008, 10:32 PM
naw bro...

TopCat
07-27-2008, 11:44 PM
Yeah,my word.Because Ive been training and eating for size for 19 years.What,you want me to google some skinny scientists report?The bigger you are,the more you need.Thats why the average protein shake is 25 -35 grams.How many protein servings are 60 grams?None unless you double the dose.

You obviously get a hard on from calling me out.Sorry to tell ya,but you should just shut up and listen for a change.

Why does it matter if the scientist is skinny? So why can the body use limitless amounts of fat and carbs but not protein? Wait, you don't know that either and thus your personal experience with 'protein assimilation' has no real value.

I'll give credit when due, you probably do know how to put weight on. If you don't know physiology though, don't go spewing out crap.

P.S. Serving sizes have nothing do with how much of a macronutrient your body can 'handle'.

vdizenzo
07-28-2008, 03:20 AM
Why does it matter if the scientist is skinny? So why can the body use limitless amounts of fat and carbs but not protein? Wait, you don't know that either and thus your personal experience with 'protein assimilation' has no real value.

I'll give credit when due, you probably do know how to put weight on. If you don't know physiology though, don't go spewing out crap.

P.S. Serving sizes have nothing do with how much of a macronutrient your body can 'handle'.

Well you must know it then, please give us the facts.

Tennessee Mike
07-28-2008, 03:35 AM
Big Mike,

i love how skinny guys have the insecurity to call big guys out on what REALLY works. Good times, bro.

Exactly.


I love how all you little guys want facts and figures.And youll will come on here and ask a million questions about elementary things,yet never be satisfied with answers given.Whats the point?If you dont like my comments,ignore them.But why challenge me?Is that gonna make you bigger?Is that putting you closer to your goal?No.It just makes you a geek who is afraid to actually test things out and find your own answers.

MJay
07-28-2008, 05:35 AM
Consuming 50-60 grams of protein at one sitting is ok for a 250-300lb guy,but most of us assimilate about 30-35 grams at a time.I eat every 2 and a half hours.

Forget about backing up what you're saying and providing evidence.
How did you draw this conclusion?

Tennessee Mike
07-28-2008, 06:06 AM
I made it up because I wanted to sound smart.

MJay
07-28-2008, 08:54 AM
I made it up because I wanted to sound smart.

Right...

I just wanted to know what your thought process was to decide:
a) theres a limited amount of protein that can be absorbed at one time
b) and that the average persons limit is 30-35g.

Also, how long does it take before a person can eat 30-35g of protein again?

RedSpikeyThing
07-28-2008, 09:11 AM
Big Mike,

i love how skinny guys have the insecurity to call big guys out on what REALLY works. Good times, bro.

So I guess Berardi knows nothing either. Oh wait, he helped out Dave Tate. What a pickle we're in....maybe skinny people do know something!!

frank
07-28-2008, 09:11 AM
Right...

I just wanted to know what your thought process was to decide:
a) theres a limited amount of protein that can be absorbed at one time
b) and that the average persons limit is 30-35g.

Also, how long does it take before a person can eat 30-35g of protein again?

can you guys stop arguing about stupid ****? or is someone gonna call me out for no damn reason?

Tennessee Mike
07-28-2008, 09:38 AM
Right...

I just wanted to know what your thought process was to decide:
a) theres a limited amount of protein that can be absorbed at one time
b) and that the average persons limit is 30-35g.

Also, how long does it take before a person can eat 30-35g of protein again?

Wow,your really inquisitive.You should be a reporter.And what were your lifting totals again?Youve gotta know alot about this weight lifting and nutrition stuff,so maybe you could help me out.

bjohnso
07-28-2008, 09:55 AM
can you guys stop arguing about stupid ****? or is someone gonna call me out for no damn reason?

This is the "Diet and Nutrition" section. We come here to learn about diet and nutrition.


Wow,your really inquisitive.You should be a reporter.And what were your lifting totals again?Youve gotta know alot about this weight lifting and nutrition stuff,so maybe you could help me out.

Relax brah. Basically I want to know if I should carry a cooler around and eat 12 times a day, or once. That's all.

MJay
07-28-2008, 09:57 AM
Wow,your really inquisitive.You should be a reporter.And what were your lifting totals again?Youve gotta know alot about this weight lifting and nutrition stuff,so maybe you could help me out.

I'm curious by nature and I haven't even totalled 1000lbs yet.

I'm just asking a question about how you know something. Its not an attack on your character or anything like that, and I doubt I will be able to help you any way. I'm just asking for your help.

I just want to know how you decided that theres a limit to protein absorbtion across a time? Because I've read that there is no such limit and I want to hear how you decided it was wrong.

Tennessee Mike
07-28-2008, 11:05 AM
I'm curious by nature and I haven't even totalled 1000lbs yet.

I'm just asking a question about how you know something. Its not an attack on your character or anything like that, and I doubt I will be able to help you any way. I'm just asking for your help.

I just want to know how you decided that theres a limit to protein absorbtion across a time? Because I've read that there is no such limit and I want to hear how you decided it was wrong.

If you ever see me post advice or give an opinion,never take it as "Scientific Fact".This is because...
(a) because I could care less about what studies have shown,or what some guru has come up with.
(b)because Ive been around long enough to see the fitness pendulum swing so many times,you never have true answers.
(c)Im not a "scientist" or a guru.Im just trying to help people obtain there goals with whatever experience I have.Thats what trainers do.

The 30-35 gm's a sitting has been around forever,and only recently (last 5 yrs)are people questioning it.This is due to the success of massive bodybuilders like Cutler and Coleman,who at times will take in around 400gm's a day at 80-100 a sitting.They look great.Right?Who's gonna argue with that?Whats not talked about is the massive amount of kidney trauma they may face,or the speed of their metabolism due to Anabolics.If the average joe weighs 165-200lbs,and the average meals a day are around 5-6,than it would be safe to say that 30-35 gms a sitting would work well,give or take a few.This is only if you believe the 1gm of protein per pound of bodyweight.The jury is out on that,but at least we know that that ratio is a safe one to maintane current mass.This doesnt of course explain the 250lb construction worker who is built like a truck,yet doesnt even know what protein is.What has to be considered is the amount of protein used by the body,and the amount wasted and excreted or becoming fat at some point.Why take in more than used?To be safe of course,but how much more?20 -30 gms more?Not me.Protein is expensive and valuable to me.With 30-35 gms you can be pretty sure that its all utilized,and not wasted.Which is why I eat every 2 and a half hrs.If Im falling short,Its not long before another shot.Theres always exceptions,too.At times I'll take in 60 at a time with beef or chicken,but its not an everyday thing.With Vincents question,he seems to weigh around 250-300 on average.He's obviously gonna be able to take in a bit more per sitting.And also require more per day than joe schmo.Not only because hes bigger,but because his volume of training.Do I reccomend 100 gms at a time?Probably not a great idea.Thats tough on the kidneys.But by all means,if your a young guy on a bulk cycle,dont worry about counting all day.Your body processes faster,and if your eating more than you need,so what?The goal is to gain.A little fat and some extra time on the pooper wont kill ya.

RhodeHouse
07-28-2008, 11:59 AM
So I guess Berardi knows nothing either. Oh wait, he helped out Dave Tate. What a pickle we're in....maybe skinny people do know something!!

No pickle at all. I no longer recongnize Dave Tate as a Rhodestown member. He knows he's out. Eventhough Dave is my sponsor, his disgrace of Rhodestown is unacceptable.

Now, as for Dave's amazing progress - you really think you got me, didn't you? The difference between Berardi and 99% of the pencil-neck geeks is that Berardi works with ELITE level athletes. Not Johnny Wanna-Get-Abs. He doesn't test his theories on noboddies who've never done anything remotely athletic a day in their life. He works with guys that have been at the top and have gotten themselves there.

Now, I know you're sitting there, all proud of yourself, thinking you got me. What you've done, as do most, is take exactly what I write and take it as absolute truth. If I say say that no pencil-neck, skinny guy knows what he's talking about, you run with that. That's fine. If I told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it? Probably not. So, don't think you're genius and you pulled one over on me because you nitpicked everything I wrote.

For 99%, if not more, of the guys on here, the little stuff will NEVER matter. You'll never get to where Dave Tate is. You spend too much time on here and not nearly enough in the weightroom lifting. You may think I'm stupid, but you can google me and watch videos of my lifting, you can read my training logs and look at ALL the questions I've answered on WBB of EliteFTS. So clearly, I know what I'm talking about. My actions on the platform back it up and there are a number of guys who have taken my advice and are seeing great results with their version of what I've done.

It's always the skinny guys telling the jacked guys that they're wrong. Funny.

RedSpikeyThing
07-28-2008, 12:48 PM
Here's the other thing: Berardi uses science to back up what he says. He find references that use studies done by know-nothing pencil-necks and puts them to use. This is what a lot of people like and that's the way this site used to be. I'm starting to understand why the book-smart (and accomplished) people left.

Also, if you noticed, I never once told the big and jacked guys they were wrong about being big and jacked. I provided useful information at the top of the tread and then it got **** on by "skinny guys know nothing; eat big macs". Then I commented about some skinny guys who know what they're doing.

For some reason you think I don't respect you as an athlete when I've clearly said so in many posts.

Holto
07-28-2008, 01:04 PM
And so... WBB's transition to bro-science is complete.

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ben Moore
07-28-2008, 01:22 PM
This thread clearly shows the line between the people who test the theories in real life situations and those who sit around qeustioning the theories in "reasearch". I'm not bashing anyone, but it's funny how you can really see that in here.

Holto
07-28-2008, 02:04 PM
This thread clearly shows the line between the people who test the theories in real life situations and those who sit around qeustioning the theories in "reasearch". I'm not bashing anyone, but it's funny how you can really see that in here.

So are you proposing that those of us with the intellect and sufficient attention span to actually read an abstract aren't training? Or aren't training as hard?

To me the guys not willing to read and learn don't want it bad enough.

Holto
07-28-2008, 02:18 PM
One thing that has always distinguished WBB from most of the other boards on the net is the constant questioning of what is posted.

If you claim something is fact, be ready to support it. If you can't support it, don't state it as fact. Just tell us what your experience has shown.

Example:

I'm really big and really strong and I drink a gallon of Gatorade every day, so do most of the big dudes I train with. These statements have value in an anecdotal sense.

It's always important to take note of real world experience, add that to some of the things that are proven beyond a shadow of scientific doubt and you're one of the informed.

vdizenzo
07-28-2008, 02:37 PM
So are you proposing that those of us with the intellect and sufficient attention span to actually read an abstract aren't training? Or aren't training as hard?

To me the guys not willing to read and learn don't want it bad enough.

I have intellect and a sufficient attention span. I finished my Master's with a 4.0. However, I prefer spending my time trying my own theories or those who have come before me rather than those spouted by some book worm. If you don't think I want it bad enough then you have a problem. If you only knew what it took to get where I am. You can study night and day, but you certainly don't know what it's like to languish under the bar for decades as I have. Yeah, I'll take the bro science that you guys laugh about.

vdizenzo
07-28-2008, 02:40 PM
Hey screw bro science, it's now post science. It seems as though those with the most knowledge have the highest post counts. So from now on make certain to check out how many posts someone has made before you believe them. The more posts they have, the more scientific facts they know.

I'm sorry I ever asked my damned question.

Holto
07-28-2008, 02:44 PM
I have intellect and a sufficient attention span.

Great, then my comment wasn't directed at you.

TopCat
07-28-2008, 03:04 PM
THE EFFECT OF MEAL FREQUENCY ON BODY COMPOSITION DURING 12-WEEKS OF STRENGTH TRAINING
Hansen Řyvind1, Fostervold Mathisen Therese2, Raastad
Truls 2
(Institute of Basic Medical Sciences, University of Oslo1,
Norwegian School of Sport Sciences2, Norway)

Human trials on the effect of meal frequency on body composition are scarce. Short-term studies show increased rate of protein synthesis immediately after intake of amino acids [1], and frequent meals are shown to aid in the preservation of lean body mass when dieting [2].

Consequently it could be hypothesised that in response to strength training, more frequent meals will give larger muscle mass accumulation and lower fat mass (FM) than fewer meals. The purpose of this study was to compare the effects of 3 vs. 6meals per day on changes in body composition in young men and women performing strength training over 12 weeks.

Men (n=33) and women (n=15) aged 21 to 35 with at least one year of previous strength training experience were randomly assigned to either a 6 meals a day group or a 3 meals a day group. The prescribed total dietary intake in both groups was equal and calculated to give a positive energy balance of approximately 1200 KJ/day, a protein intake of 1.5-1.7 g/kg/day and a carbohydrate intake of 5-7 g/kg/day. During the training period the dietary intake was controlled by repeated 24-hours recalls. All participants performed the same strength training program, training four times per week, giving each muscle group one heavy session and one light session per week. In the heavy sessions, training intensity varied between 10 and 3 RM sets, and 3-6 sets were performed in each exercise.
Determination of body composition was performed with DEXA at the beginning of and immediately after the training period. A total of 16 men and 11 women completed the project.

After multiple regression analysis the 3 meal group had a significant greater gain in lean body mass (LBM) than the 6 meal group when adjusted for gender and energy intake (p=0.04), when adjusted for gender and protein intake (p=0.03), and when adjusted for gender, protein intake, carbohydrate intake and fat intake* (p=0.01). (*: Fat intake in g/kg body weight/day showed significance on LBM, p=0.03). No significant differences in regional changes in LBM were observed, although there was a tendency towards a greater gain in the three meal group. There were no significant differences in change in fat mass (FM) between the groups, but a tendency towards a greater gain in the three meal group, 7.33% (-5.23, 19.90), p=0.24. The three meal group had a 2.87%(0.62, 5.12) larger weight gain than the six meal group, p=0.01.The participants had a 2.31% (0.83, 3.79), gain in bone mineral density of the spine during the twelve weeks of strength training, p<0.01, but there were no differences between the groups.

In this study, three meals per day resulted in larger muscle gain from strength training than six meals per day over a period of twelve weeks. The reason why 3 meals a day was superior to 6 meals a day in this study needs further investigation. More long-term studies are needed to determine the optimal meal frequency for gain in LBM from strength training.

For those that don't care to actually read I highlighted the important parts. As with any study though, this one required further investigation. Funny how a pencil neck scientist can use athletes for lab rats :read:

Ben Moore
07-28-2008, 03:45 PM
So are you proposing that those of us with the intellect and sufficient attention span to actually read an abstract aren't training? Or aren't training as hard?

To me the guys not willing to read and learn don't want it bad enough.

Holto - I don't know you from Adam, but I was not directing my comment at anyone (That's why I started with, "I'm not bashing..."). If you feel like you were wronged in anyway, try therapy.

RhodeHouse
07-28-2008, 03:46 PM
THE EFFECT OF MEAL FREQUENCY ON BODY COMPOSITION DURING 12-WEEKS OF STRENGTH TRAINING
Hansen Řyvind1, Fostervold Mathisen Therese2, Raastad
Truls 2
(Institute of Basic Medical Sciences, University of Oslo1,
Norwegian School of Sport Sciences2, Norway)

Human trials on the effect of meal frequency on body composition are scarce. Short-term studies show increased rate of protein synthesis immediately after intake of amino acids [1], and frequent meals are shown to aid in the preservation of lean body mass when dieting [2].

Consequently it could be hypothesised that in response to strength training, more frequent meals will give larger muscle mass accumulation and lower fat mass (FM) than fewer meals. The purpose of this study was to compare the effects of 3 vs. 6meals per day on changes in body composition in young men and women performing strength training over 12 weeks.

Men (n=33) and women (n=15) aged 21 to 35 with at least one year of previous strength training experience were randomly assigned to either a 6 meals a day group or a 3 meals a day group. The prescribed total dietary intake in both groups was equal and calculated to give a positive energy balance of approximately 1200 KJ/day, a protein intake of 1.5-1.7 g/kg/day and a carbohydrate intake of 5-7 g/kg/day. During the training period the dietary intake was controlled by repeated 24-hours recalls. All participants performed the same strength training program, training four times per week, giving each muscle group one heavy session and one light session per week. In the heavy sessions, training intensity varied between 10 and 3 RM sets, and 3-6 sets were performed in each exercise.
Determination of body composition was performed with DEXA at the beginning of and immediately after the training period. A total of 16 men and 11 women completed the project.

After multiple regression analysis the 3 meal group had a significant greater gain in lean body mass (LBM) than the 6 meal group when adjusted for gender and energy intake (p=0.04), when adjusted for gender and protein intake (p=0.03), and when adjusted for gender, protein intake, carbohydrate intake and fat intake* (p=0.01). (*: Fat intake in g/kg body weight/day showed significance on LBM, p=0.03). No significant differences in regional changes in LBM were observed, although there was a tendency towards a greater gain in the three meal group. There were no significant differences in change in fat mass (FM) between the groups, but a tendency towards a greater gain in the three meal group, 7.33% (-5.23, 19.90), p=0.24. The three meal group had a 2.87%(0.62, 5.12) larger weight gain than the six meal group, p=0.01.The participants had a 2.31% (0.83, 3.79), gain in bone mineral density of the spine during the twelve weeks of strength training, p<0.01, but there were no differences between the groups.

In this study, three meals per day resulted in larger muscle gain from strength training than six meals per day over a period of twelve weeks. The reason why 3 meals a day was superior to 6 meals a day in this study needs further investigation. More long-term studies are needed to determine the optimal meal frequency for gain in LBM from strength training.

For those that don't care to actually read I highlighted the important parts. As with any study though, this one required further investigation. Funny how a pencil neck scientist can use athletes for lab rats :read:

Who did they study? Top level, pro bodybuilders/powerlifters/olympic lifters/strongmen? Or just some Johnny off the Street, guy? The people studied here are most likely, nobody in the world of weight training.

What's funny, is how weak, skinny guys can quote all these "great" scientific studies, yet, have nothing to show for it. No strength, no appreciable size, or muscle mass. That's funny.

You keep quoting these geeks and those of us that have a pair, will continue to get bigger, stronger, and better. I'm sure you'll have a snappy comeback, quoted and paraphrased, but it means nothing. Show us what all of this knowledge has done for you. Pictures, numbers, something. Give us idiots something to grab onto. Because, if you can't, you're just gonna sound like a putz, again. Show the idiots some real-world results.

Can't wait for this one.

Tennessee Mike
07-28-2008, 03:55 PM
Here we go again.Do you people ever actually work out?I mean,Jesus Christ!.Your on a website with guys whove forgotten more than you will ever know,and instead of listening to what theyve actually DONE (not read about),you try to discount everything they say.What is the point?Are you bored?Are you lonely?How bout you walk into a gym and actually train hard.Or try different nutrional programs and experiment with them.Dont waste the time of those like myself who are trying to give you the best advice we know how,for no other reason than we want to see young guys succeed.So post your studies,and pick apart everything that Me,or anyone else has to say,and youll be a better person.Youll reach your goals twice as fast.

TopCat
07-28-2008, 03:59 PM
Who did they study? Top level, pro bodybuilders/powerlifters/olympic lifters/strongmen? Or just some Johnny off the Street, guy? The people studied here are most likely, nobody in the world of weight training.

What's funny, is how weak, skinny guys can quote all these "great" scientific studies, yet, have nothing to show for it. No strength, no appreciable size, or muscle mass. That's funny.

You keep quoting these geeks and those of us that have a pair, will continue to get bigger, stronger, and better. I'm sure you'll have a snappy comeback, quoted and paraphrased, but it means nothing. Show us what all of this knowledge has done for you. Pictures, numbers, something. Give us idiots something to grab onto. Because, if you can't, you're just gonna sound like a putz, again. Show the idiots some real-world results.

Can't wait for this one.

Honestly, I don't currently have access to the full text and would probably have to get to campus to look at it. As I said there are definitely flaws, that being one. The other large one for me is small sample size. Either way, I take what information I can get while I'm not training.

Since you asked, I am making amazing leaps in getting bigger, stronger, and better. I also do plan on making a thread in the video section to show the results of my recovery. Specifically, how my cut has gone and the DL video I have (nothing too special, 1x405 @ 190). While I can understand your skepticism regarding studies you have to admit that research is what allows for breakthroughs in technology and knowledge in all realms of our world, including lifting.

TopCat
07-28-2008, 04:03 PM
Here we go again.Do you people ever actually work out?

Actually yes. Last time I checked lifting only takes 5-6 hours out of my week, 7-8 max when I am on an extreme diet. That leaves plenty of time for other things, including some reading.

You probably have time to do other things to, that is, unless you lift about 18 hours a day.


you try to discount everything they say.What is the point?Are you bored?Are you lonely?How bout you walk into a gym and actually train hard.Or try different nutritional programs and experiment with them.

If by discount you mean question a statement with literature to back it... yes. Bored, ya (A). Also it is kind of fun to get your panties in a twist, I wont lie (B). I suggest you take your own advice on the bolded text. Because of reasons (A) and (B) I corrected the spelling of nutritional for you.

Ben Moore
07-28-2008, 04:04 PM
No one is discounting the tech and knowledge or even the various studies. Our frustration stems from the fact that when we give out real world advice it is picked apart and broken down and then we're told why it wouldn't work. We have been there and done that for the most part. We've tried and failed many times to get to where we are. Why not take the advice of many of the top level lifters on this site? Do you think they are just telling you something for the sake of talking? It usually is because they can see the road you are going down and are trying to steer you in the right direction.

This new generation of kids that questions everything is driving me nuts.

RedSpikeyThing
07-28-2008, 04:11 PM
No one is discounting the tech and knowledge or even the various studies. Our frustration stems from the fact that when we give out real world advice it is picked apart and broken down and then we're told why it wouldn't work. We have been there and done that for the most part. We've tried and failed many times to get to where we are. Why not take the advice of many of the top level lifters on this site? Do you think they are just telling you something for the sake of talking? It usually is because they can see the road you are going down and are trying to steer you in the right direction.

This new generation of kids that questions everything is driving me nuts.

This has to be the best "telling off" post I have read yet. It's polite! I ask questions because I like to know how things work. Just because I'm questioning you doesn't mean I don't believe you or aren't following your advice. It just means I'm curious about why something works. I'm also interested in the things you have tried that failed.
Before I get flamed: this is NOT directed at anyone in particular. Just because something worked well for you doesn't mean it couldn't have been done better. Science gives you another perspective to look at and may lead to roads worth travelling down.

TopCat
07-28-2008, 04:13 PM
No one is discounting the tech and knowledge or even the various studies. Our frustration stems from the fact that when we give out real world advice it is picked apart and broken down and then we're told why it wouldn't work. We have been there and done that for the most part. We've tried and failed many times to get to where we are. Why not take the advice of many of the top level lifters on this site? Do you think they are just telling you something for the sake of talking? It usually is because they can see the road you are going down and are trying to steer you in the right direction.

This new generation of kids that questions everything is driving me nuts.

Ben, like Rhodes I have a lot of respect for you and your accomplishments. I wouldn't dare go into the PL forum and give out advice. Your experience with technique and programs regarding obtaining maximum strength is WELL beyond mine.

Now, in the diet/nutrition forum that is a little different. Understanding the body and optimizing it through nutrition is based off knowledge, not so much experience. Unlike squatting or benching, you get better in this aspect by studying.

Edit: I should watch what I say... when dieting experience does certainly help with knowing how your body reacts under certain restrictions/stresses.

Ben Moore
07-28-2008, 04:24 PM
No worries guys - just don't completely discount us for being powerlifters or strongmen. There's a lot of dieting or planning of diet that goes into our sports as well. How many of you really have aspirations of getting on stage and competing? My point is we probably do alot of the same things in regards to diet and nutrition to get to the levels we are. You would be surprised at what goes into maintaining or even cutting to a particular weight class.

Tennessee Mike
07-28-2008, 04:25 PM
Actually yes. Last time I checked lifting only takes 5-6 hours out of my week, 7-8 max when I am on an extreme diet. That leaves plenty of time for other things, including some reading.

You probably have time to do other things to, that is, unless you lift about 18 hours a day.



If by discount you mean question a statement with literature to back it... yes. Bored, ya (A). Also it is kind of fun to get your panties in a twist, I wont lie (B). I suggest you take your own advice on the bolded text. Because of reasons (A) and (B) I corrected the spelling of nutritional for you.


Top Cat,normally I would go on a rant,but I'll save the Mod from sending me pm's or deleting my posts.But I will say that your a silly little person,with absolutely no respect for anyone.You offer nothing to this site,you give horrible advice on 90% of your posts,and your probably one of the biggest geeks Ive ever exchanged words with.Guys like Vinnie,Rhodes,Travis are world class athletes who are at a point you will never reach in your life.They got their by determination,sacrifice,and knowing how to fix things that arent working in their routine.As far as myself,Im beyond thankful for the privlege to pick their brains.And while Im not a world class powerlifter or bodybuilder,Ive helped many people realize their goals through my guidance and training.I dont have all the answers.I go with what I know.And I will continue to.So do your little thing you do and continue to discredit more experienced than you.Youll get really far in life with that cocky,smug attitude.

Travis Bell
07-28-2008, 04:59 PM
No one is discounting the tech and knowledge or even the various studies. Our frustration stems from the fact that when we give out real world advice it is picked apart and broken down and then we're told why it wouldn't work. We have been there and done that for the most part. We've tried and failed many times to get to where we are. Why not take the advice of many of the top level lifters on this site? Do you think they are just telling you something for the sake of talking? It usually is because they can see the road you are going down and are trying to steer you in the right direction.

This new generation of kids that questions everything is driving me nuts.

Great post Ben. I completly agree with this

Chubrock
07-28-2008, 05:40 PM
Here we go again.Do you people ever actually work out?I mean,Jesus Christ!.Your on a website with guys whove forgotten more than you will ever know,and instead of listening to what theyve actually DONE (not read about),you try to discount everything they say.What is the point?Are you bored?Are you lonely?How bout you walk into a gym and actually train hard.Or try different nutrional programs and experiment with them.Dont waste the time of those like myself who are trying to give you the best advice we know how,for no other reason than we want to see young guys succeed.So post your studies,and pick apart everything that Me,or anyone else has to say,and youll be a better person.Youll reach your goals twice as fast.



Why do you continue to bash nearly everyone here? Do you have anything at all to add to these forums? You talk down to nearly everybody that offers a differing view point and while you speak about earning respect, you continue to come off as an ass to nearly everyone. People take Rhode's **** talk in good spirits because that's his personality and most people realize he just likes ****ing around. You however, are a dick.

TopCat
07-28-2008, 05:41 PM
No worries guys - just don't completely discount us for being powerlifters or strongmen. There's a lot of dieting or planning of diet that goes into our sports as well. How many of you really have aspirations of getting on stage and competing? My point is we probably do alot of the same things in regards to diet and nutrition to get to the levels we are. You would be surprised at what goes into maintaining or even cutting to a particular weight class.

Ya, thanks for the insight. As I said I know pretty much nothing about your world as a powerlifter and usually try not to assume anything. There definitely is overlap in certain areas I probably normally wouldn't think about. At the same time dieting <10% becomes an entirely different beast than anything >10% I've found out.

Also, I don't ever plan on stepping on stage. I just wouldn't find any fun in the type of competition. Currently it is all just me trying to achieve the physique I can. However, things could change in a couple years.

Travis Bell
07-28-2008, 06:00 PM
trust me, Ben knows plenty about diet and nutrition. You can take advantage of the situation and learn or you can disregard the information simply because you have an inaccurate view of powerlifters. Your choice

RhodeHouse
07-28-2008, 06:20 PM
Honestly, I don't currently have access to the full text and would probably have to get to campus to look at it. As I said there are definitely flaws, that being one. The other large one for me is small sample size. Either way, I take what information I can get while I'm not training.

Since you asked, I am making amazing leaps in getting bigger, stronger, and better. I also do plan on making a thread in the video section to show the results of my recovery. Specifically, how my cut has gone and the DL video I have (nothing too special, 1x405 @ 190). While I can understand your skepticism regarding studies you have to admit that research is what allows for breakthroughs in technology and knowledge in all realms of our world, including lifting.

first, your deadlift - don't ever knock yourself because your number isn't a world record or something like that. I know I get on "weak"people about telling me how to do things, but this is an entirely different situation. a 405 pull is awesome. It's your PR and that's something you should be proud of.

Second, research and technology help me watching internet porn and making phone calls. I have better things to do than read some useless study on how to get stronger or bigger. There are a ton of guys who got big and strong without the interent and useless scientists. Arnold, Kaz, Franco, and the list goes on, were able to be at the top of their games without the internet and science. They did exactly what you should do. They lifted weights and ate lots of dead animals. Watch "Pumping Iron". Arnold talks about "putting on more deltoid" when he needed to build his shoulders. As he states, he went to the gym and trained shoulders more often. It's really that simple.

All that research and technology have done is to ruin lifting. All you need is a bar, a squat rack, a buttload of plates, and a lot of patience and perseverance.

I agree with Ben, I'm tired of today's kids not listening. Someone, I can't remember who, said they are just curious and want to know why or how. WHo cares? If you do care, you should go study and stop lifting. You don't ask why at Southside. You do as you're told or we get rid of you. It's that simple. Do as you're told and figure out the why as you go. Don't ask about it. That's what Ben is talking about. We would NEVER question those that took us under their wings. NEVER! Not because we're stupid, but because we were brillaint. We realized that we had guys with more knowledge than we could ever hope to get. In reality, most of these guys taught us how to eat big, lift heavy, and have a pair of balls. We were afraid to lose the knowledge and experience these guys had. So, we STFU and listened. We watched and listened. No talky! We did as we were told and guess what? We all made progress. No books. No studies. No equations. Plates on a bar in a squat rack. If we tried to quit, we were berated and made fun of and we did 1 of 2 things.

1. We ran away and found "nicer" guys to workout with (not train, but workout - there is a difference)
2. We STFU and did what we were told. If we couldn't, we tried until something tore, broke, or we were told to stop by the guys that knew better.

At the end of the day, I don't care about anyone's progress except my own and the guys that "get it". Listen. Don't listen. I don't care. I've been there, Ben has been there, adn many other guys have been there. You really should STFU and listen. You'll learn a lot more than reading a book. And, that my friends, is a scientific fact.

TopCat
07-28-2008, 06:34 PM
I'm always up for learning. That said wouldn't consider myself a novice in area of diet/nutrition by any means...

Did a little more research on the protein per meal to list what some experts have to say. Basically, as with many subjects of this nature, the jury is still out. What we know is that gastic emptying and nutrient absorption increases with nutrient intakes. Furthermore, a static number would unlikely be applicable based off genetics (affecting enzymes), body size, and activity.

The better question becomes how much protein can be utilized per/hour which really turns into the age-old question of how much protein should we be consuming each day (I saw day because remember bigger/smaller meals affect the speed in which food passes through you). Many of us would prefer to be over this limit rather than under. Recent preliminary studies have found there is a limit which comes out to ~0.26-0.30g/kg of whole protein to stimulate muscle protein synthesis. However, the study was in untrained individuals... So there is a good chance the numbers we need to hit are higher than that.

The information was summed up from Lyle's protein book. I'm sure if someone is REALLY interested I could look in the references for specific studies. PM if you want me to send em to ya (Although if your really interested I'd suggest buying the book, very interesting/informative read).

RhodeHouse
07-28-2008, 06:38 PM
I'll stick to drinking 4, 75g protein shakes and eating 150-200g of whole food. It works, despite the "studies". Who's gonna tell me I'm wrong, now?

TopCat
07-28-2008, 06:46 PM
You really should STFU and listen. You'll learn a lot more than reading a book. And, that my friends, is a scientific fact.

You probably wont believe me, but I totally agree. If I was training with you or anyone that lifted numbers like some of you I would STFU. If you told me to do something, I would without question.

Except when it comes to scientific stuff, like the finer details of nutrition. This stuff is debatable and opinions should be expressed with information to back opinions. Often there isn't a clear cut right or wrong.

TopCat
07-28-2008, 06:49 PM
I'll stick to drinking 4, 75g protein shakes and eating 150-200g of whole food. It works, despite the "studies". Who's gonna tell me I'm wrong, now?

Actually I'd tell you.... You're right! If studies show such needs in untrained individuals... athletes most likely would need more. Better safe than sorry.

RedSpikeyThing
07-28-2008, 07:12 PM
I agree with Ben, I'm tired of today's kids not listening. Someone, I can't remember who, said they are just curious and want to know why or how. WHo cares? If you do care, you should go study and stop lifting. You don't ask why at Southside. You do as you're told or we get rid of you. It's that simple. Do as you're told and figure out the why as you go. Don't ask about it. That's what Ben is talking about. We would NEVER question those that took us under their wings. NEVER! Not because we're stupid, but because we were brillaint. We realized that we had guys with more knowledge than we could ever hope to get. In reality, most of these guys taught us how to eat big, lift heavy, and have a pair of balls. We were afraid to lose the knowledge and experience these guys had. So, we STFU and listened. We watched and listened. No talky! We did as we were told and guess what? We all made progress. No books. No studies. No equations. Plates on a bar in a squat rack. If we tried to quit, we were berated and made fun of and we did 1 of 2 things.


*slowly raises hand* that was me. I like to know the why. I think a simple "I don't know the answer" would suffice. It doesn't mean I doubt it works for a second or lose any respect for you. It just means I have to ask someone else the "why".

Travis Bell
07-28-2008, 07:48 PM
When I first came to Westside, I did what Lou told me, when Lou told me, how Lou told me and didn't stop until Lou told me. The same thing went for advice that was given by George Halbert. Guess what, I still do that. I don't ask questions. I already know why - BECAUSE LOU SAID SO!! I want to bench more. Thats it. I didn't come to Westside to just know more. What good is that? I came to get stronger and you don't get stronger by asking question after question. You get stronger by lifting. I'm all for a person being able to understand a concept, but understand it by experience. Go out and try it. Do what your told and after a period of time you'll understand why. I've been at Westside for almost 4 years now and when I first when there I didn't really understand why we did what we did, but I did it. The longer I was there, I began to understand why we did things because I saw how they worked. Asking why is the lazy way to do things. People just want to know the answer other people have worked and sweated to get to, without having to do that work.

I'm cool with a question here or there about what to do in a routine or how to go about it, but when you ask more questions than you do sets, you're already going down the wrong trail

RedSpikeyThing
07-28-2008, 08:21 PM
See this is the problem a lot of us are faced with: we don't have the luxury of a world class coach. I don't have someone to tell me what to do, when to do it, how to do it and when to stop. If I did, I would listen and not ask questions. When you don't have that luxury you have to fend for yourself and that usually means learning the why's. Lou will tell you to do some exercise for some number of reps, but I have to think of that myself. If I know why your'e doing something then I might be able to figure out something. If I follow blindly what works for you, I probably won't succeed. That whole "teach a man to fish" thing.

vdizenzo
07-28-2008, 08:35 PM
If I follow blindly what works for you, I probably won't succeed. That whole "teach a man to fish" thing.

That's what Travis did with Lou. You don't get it.

RedSpikeyThing
07-28-2008, 08:36 PM
That's what Travis did with Lou. You don't get it.

Maybe I'm missing someting, but Lou tailors his programs to each lifter.

vdizenzo
07-28-2008, 08:49 PM
Maybe I'm missing someting, but Lou tailors his programs to each lifter.

I highly doubt that. It's pretty much the same program with adjusted numbers. Most of the guys I train with do the same program I do. Do you think they use the same weights I do? Well they don't, but I can tell you that they have all made progress following basically the same program. We make progress because we stick with a program and work hard. I'll tell you something else, if they were up my ass with questions I would not waste my time with them.

Auburn
07-28-2008, 09:08 PM
If you're still interested in the original topic, Lyle McDonald's The Protein Book pretty much covers everything I can imagine about protein and athletes.

Travis Bell
07-28-2008, 09:48 PM
I highly doubt that. It's pretty much the same program with adjusted numbers. Most of the guys I train with do the same program I do. Do you think they use the same weights I do? Well they don't, but I can tell you that they have all made progress following basically the same program. We make progress because we stick with a program and work hard. I'll tell you something else, if they were up my ass with questions I would not waste my time with them.

Exactly. What would be the point of a team if everyone was doing a different workout each session. That'd defeat itself rather quickly

I'm not saying I don't like helping people out with their questions, but some people would rather ask a question instead of actually trying something out. The people that have had the most success with my help have been the ones who tried, got a little stuck, and then broke through it with a little clarification. Those people were looking for a way to make the program work, not analyze it to death and ask why why why why

I've actually seen people come to Westside before and try the "why" thing. If you just ask Louie "why" he'll tell you "because thats how we get stronger"

TopCat
07-28-2008, 10:19 PM
Exactly. What would be the point of a team if everyone was doing a different workout each session. That'd defeat itself rather quickly

I'm not saying I don't like helping people out with their questions, but some people would rather ask a question instead of actually trying something out. The people that have had the most success with my help have been the ones who tried, got a little stuck, and then broke through it with a little clarification. Those people were looking for a way to make the program work, not analyze it to death and ask why why why why

I've actually seen people come to Westside before and try the "why" thing. If you just ask Louie "why" he'll tell you "because thats how we get stronger"

Regardless, someone asked why. It was answered. The world is not yet over. Anyways, why is a good question to ask.

RhodeHouse
07-28-2008, 10:23 PM
See this is the problem a lot of us are faced with: we don't have the luxury of a world class coach. I don't have someone to tell me what to do, when to do it, how to do it and when to stop. If I did, I would listen and not ask questions. When you don't have that luxury you have to fend for yourself and that usually means learning the why's. Lou will tell you to do some exercise for some number of reps, but I have to think of that myself. If I know why your'e doing something then I might be able to figure out something. If I follow blindly what works for you, I probably won't succeed. That whole "teach a man to fish" thing.

This is a whole other thread, but go out and LOOK for people. You spend so much time reading about $hit. I'll bet my right nut that if you spent the same amount of time looking for training partners, you'd have a place like Westside or Southside. Lou doesn't look for people. They go find him. I found Vincent. So, don't cry about not having a good place to train or knowledgable people. We're all over the place. You just need to look. I don't ask people to come train at Southside. They seek me, or Vincent out. We have the luxery because we went out and found a group of like-minded people. That's why guys like Vincent, Travis, Ben, Will, and I all agree. We're like-minded. We all train differently, but we all have the same goals. We'd all train together if we lived in the same area, most likely. Did you ever notice we all seem to agree with each other, most of the time. Some of us explain ourselves better or differently, but we rarely disagree on anything. You can choose to have a bad training atmosphere or you can choose to find a great one. It's up to you. But, saying it's our luxery is a load of horse$hit. We all went out and found our perfect training atmosphere and didn't care what program is being used. We blindly followed those that knew better. ANy more questions?

vdizenzo
07-29-2008, 04:29 AM
This is a whole other thread, but go out and LOOK for people. You spend so much time reading about $hit. I'll bet my right nut that if you spent the same amount of time looking for training partners, you'd have a place like Westside or Southside. Lou doesn't look for people. They go find him. I found Vincent. So, don't cry about not having a good place to train or knowledgable people. We're all over the place. You just need to look. I don't ask people to come train at Southside. They seek me, or Vincent out. We have the luxery because we went out and found a group of like-minded people. That's why guys like Vincent, Travis, Ben, Will, and I all agree. We're like-minded. We all train differently, but we all have the same goals. We'd all train together if we lived in the same area, most likely. Did you ever notice we all seem to agree with each other, most of the time. Some of us explain ourselves better or differently, but we rarely disagree on anything. You can choose to have a bad training atmosphere or you can choose to find a great one. It's up to you. But, saying it's our luxery is a load of horse$hit. We all went out and found our perfect training atmosphere and didn't care what program is being used. We blindly followed those that knew better. ANy more questions?


Why?

WillKuenzel
07-29-2008, 04:46 AM
See this is the problem a lot of us are faced with: we don't have the luxury of a world class coach. I don't have someone to tell me what to do, when to do it, how to do it and when to stop. If I did, I would listen and not ask questions. When you don't have that luxury you have to fend for yourself and that usually means learning the why's. Lou will tell you to do some exercise for some number of reps, but I have to think of that myself. If I know why your'e doing something then I might be able to figure out something. If I follow blindly what works for you, I probably won't succeed. That whole "teach a man to fish" thing.That's your problem to overcome. Don't make excuses. Did you see the thread in powerlifting where guys were talking about how long they traveled to train with people?

The big guys don't come to you. You have to find them and go to them. Marc Bartley lives 2 hours from me. You think he's coming down my way to help me out? No, I drive the 4 hour round trip as often as I can. I can't do it often but each time I leave with more information and a stronger motivation to train. If you find them and go to them, there are very few guys I've talked to that aren't willing to help in some way.

They also though, ain't going to spend the time to explain why. That's what school is for. That's why you learned how to read. Little **** like that you can do on your own. The weights on the programs may change but the program works for a reason. Go figure Sheiko out. It's worked for many many guys for decades. Westside has worked for years. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You want to learn how something works, go read a book. You want to lift something, find those stronger than you.

RhodeHouse
07-29-2008, 06:14 AM
Regardless, someone asked why. It was answered. The world is not yet over. Anyways, why is a good question to ask.

Why is a stupid question. STFU and do. All your "why's" is time that should be spent training, not reading. You don't get it. Period. You don't get it. 3 or 4 of the strongest people in this copuntry have told you the same thing, yet you still keep flapping your gums. You don't get it. I'm done with you. If you won't listen, someone else will.

Tennessee Mike
07-29-2008, 06:51 AM
Lets move on from this.No sense in getting worked up over someone who's doing it for there own entertainment.

RedSpikeyThing
07-29-2008, 06:52 AM
Aight, thanks for the tough love.

Cirino83
07-29-2008, 07:17 AM
best thread ever. LMAO @ bro science.

WillKuenzel
07-29-2008, 07:59 AM
Why is a stupid question. STFU and do. All your "why's" is time that should be spent training, not reading. You don't get it. Period. You don't get it. 3 or 4 of the strongest people in this copuntry have told you the same thing, yet you still keep flapping your gums. You don't get it. I'm done with you. If you won't listen, someone else will.I agree.

Just like a 2 year old always asking, "why?" It won't matter to you and you won't understand until you actually do it. Questioning all those that have done the leg work for you. It's just like gravity. You know it's there, you trust that it's there, you have a mild understanding of the fact but the physicists that could tell you more will just talk over your head until you've actually spent time doing the studies and reading the material.

Same with lifting. Your limited understanding is not going to be enough to understand the why's of it all. You've not been there and done that. Your time spent under the bar is only a fraction of the time of those that are better than you. You'll learn as you go.

ryuage
07-29-2008, 08:35 AM
yo brahhh's just lift the weight and eat some protein, but don't drink milk because thats for babies.

mistergalarza
07-29-2008, 12:29 PM
How ignorant are you to ignore science and research? maybe they applied the research to whatever nobody athletes, guess what? You're one too. So instead of debunking the evidence, practice what you preach and try it.

Auburn
07-29-2008, 12:43 PM
How ignorant are you to ignore science and research?

While I think it's ridiculous to ignore science, this industry is rife with some "experts" taking specific research and applying it broadly. A lot of times, it's rat research or in vitro stuff. At the same time, the plural of anecdote is not fact...and there are many things outside the lab that affect eating patterns. So, while I think all the evidence shows that meal frequency doesn't mean much outside of around activity...we don't have any research in advanced athletes. There are certain eating patterns one might want to employ to optimize hormonal levels, but if you're hormonally assisted, it means ****-all. And, timing is almost certainly more important for advanced lifters due to lessened adaptation response at that level which means they might not get the luxury of heightened protein synthesis even in the absence of food.

So, research is only as good as the mind that understands and applies the knowledge. And, greed seems to blunt the sharpness of many of the minds in this industry.

JSully
07-29-2008, 05:49 PM
All I see is "stop reading and lift" in this thread..

Last I checked, you don't grow in the gym. We're in the diet/nutrition forum. MOST people in this forum are looking to drop pounds. Once I learned the science behind nutrition, my cuts have gone ALOT smoother.. and that's MY experience..

but, whatever.. us pencil necks only know how to be a book worm and not know how to train, lol.. right ryuage?

ryuage
07-29-2008, 06:28 PM
training... lifting... what are these things you guys speak of?

vdizenzo
07-29-2008, 07:04 PM
All I see is "stop reading and lift" in this thread..

Last I checked, you don't grow in the gym. We're in the diet/nutrition forum. MOST people in this forum are looking to drop pounds. Once I learned the science behind nutrition, my cuts have gone ALOT smoother.. and that's MY experience..

but, whatever.. us pencil necks only know how to be a book worm and not know how to train, lol.. right ryuage?

The guy talking about cutting has a Burger King avatar, what a donkey.

RhodeHouse
07-29-2008, 09:25 PM
It's so sad that you guys don't get it.

And, it's too bad one of my posts got deleted because I spoke my mind and told the truth.

You guys really know nothing, and it shows. You're a waste of my good time.

vdizenzo
07-29-2008, 11:00 PM
Rhodes you give a lot back to the sport. Don't freak out. Walk away. We've said our peace in this thread.

JSully
07-29-2008, 11:18 PM
The guy talking about cutting has a Burger King avatar, what a donkey.

and?

just because I enjoy burger king every once in a while doesn't mean I don't know how to cut. My handle is also "LittleJake" yet I'm 240lbs at 11% bodyfat with a 500+ raw squat and deadlift.. I can't compare to the powerlifters here, but I think I'm doing pretty damn well.

you can't judge all books by their covers..

Furthermore your questions were answered by ryuage.. then TN Mike chimed in and gave his opinion. That's fine, but when he was questioned on it he tripped out and then rhoades decided to speak his mind as well.

This is a powerlifting AND bodybuilding forum. Lately it's just a powerlifting forum and any questions regarding bodybuilding just get scrutinized.

The "works for me because of experience" just doesn't fit the bill for everyone. I aree that everybody needs to figure out what works for their body, but what's so wrong with learning the science behind it? That makes things MUCH easier in terms of finding what works instead of just guessing and following everyone else.

What if you add in drugs? You can't follow peoples experience who are on drugs because the drugs GREATLY change metabolism, protein synthesis and more. And if you're on drugs, you can't follow someones experience who isn't on drugs. I don't know nor do I care what athletes on this board are on drugs so don't think I'm calling anyone out. Fact is everyone is different and just because Mike's experience shows that 25-25g protein every 2.5 hours is ideal just doesn't cut it. This coming from the guy that says guys who want abs aren't real men. :rolleyes: Not only is he an ass in nearly every thread, he contradicts himself at the same time. If you don't believe me, just run a search with TN Mike's name and read his posts, they'll speak for themselves.

This thread is ridiculous as well as most of the recent diet/nutrition threads. To the OP: I thought you had a good question and it was answered well by ryuage before it turned into a holier than thou experience vs proven science thread. Ben did a great job of explaining things to ease the tension but it just got ******ed again. Funny how most pro bodybuilders have nutritionists who went to college for nutrition, yet everyone here seems to think experience works the best. Well guess what, REGARDLESS of what your experience proves, there are scientific protocols that have gone on inside your body to change your composition.

God damn this board is going downhill.

JSully
07-29-2008, 11:52 PM
EvitFh8A0zI

Even this idiot knows that what works for you won't work for me.

BFGUITAR
07-30-2008, 12:10 AM
I gotta say, this thread turned to **** lol

Here's my input...

We are ancient bodies in a new world. We have the body of animals... a body that doesn't know when it's next meal will come. A body that prefers a bit more fat than muscle to help get through the winter. A body like this WILL NOT waste anything. You think ancient humans normally at every 2 hours? Hell no. They got one huge meal every day or so. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't eat for 1-2 days. So I think large meals don't make much of a difference.

Really you get these idiots comparing our bodies to every day things. Like eating too much at once "clogs" the body. They say we can't handle so much food. Our bodies ave been tailored by nature or god (what ever you choose) to eat big meals.

JSully
07-30-2008, 12:14 AM
I gotta say, this thread turned to **** lol

Here's my input...

We are ancient bodies in a new world. We have the body of animals... a body that doesn't know when it's next meal will come. A body that prefers a bit more fat than muscle to help get through the winter. A body like this WILL NOT waste anything. You think ancient humans normally at every 2 hours? Hell no. They got one huge meal every day or so. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't eat for 1-2 days. So I think large meals don't make much of a difference.

Really you get these idiots comparing our bodies to every day things. Like eating too much at once "clogs" the body. They say we can't handle so much food. Our bodies ave been tailored by nature or god (what ever you choose) to eat big meals.

:clap:

agreed

motoko013
07-30-2008, 02:21 AM
as for the original question, if you ate 100g of protein in one meal, most if not all would be absorbed. all the protein eaten would be digested into amino acids and would be used in your body, whether it is for building muscle, making antibodies, or whatever. any amino acids not needed for those tasks may be transaminated or deaminated (with the ammonia group excreted, not the amino acid) and the resulting alpha-keto acid can be used to directly make ATP or glucose.

so really, it wouldn't matter how many meals you eat a day, 1 or 12, as long as calories are good. it's all up to preference.

as for the study TopCat posted, the p value is BARELY significant at all, not to mention the actual strength exercises or the actual diet were not listed. the study also pointed out that not all of the subjects completed the testing and i'm not sure if the actual diet or exercises were controlled at all.

Travis Bell
07-30-2008, 06:39 AM
Guys, you're right, this thread did get a little off topic. I know I contributed to that a little with some of my posts above.

I think the problem arises when guys like Rhodes, Vin, Ben and myself see some of the other posters getting all freaked out because they don't know how to do things nutritionally that follow an exact science. The real truth is there doesn't need to be exact science behind your diet unless you are in fact a pro bodybuilder. You can't compare what Jay Cutler does in his diet to what someone on here does on a cut. Its just not the same. Rhodes and Vin were just trying to simplify others lives, but some refused and they want to complicate it more, which to guys like us just doesn't make sense. But I do recognize its a personal choice. If a person wants to complicate their life and diet out the wazoo, sure go ahead, but try and not act like its the only way to do it.

Jake, in response to your points about the direction of the board towards PLing, I think you're right, currently its a little more dominated by pro PLers. I know the BBing board has declined a little bit. If you guys can be a little patient with Chris and Daniel, I know personally that they are working on getting some more Pro level BBers to begin contributing on the board. This really is a great board, but what we have to resist is the urge to feel the ENTIRE board is going downhill just because we don't see eye to eye on something or even that you feel someone's information is beyond idiotic.

Again, I realize I was part in the contribution to the off topic discussion and it was unnecessary. From here on out we'll try and keep it on topic if we could?

vdizenzo
07-30-2008, 09:30 AM
EvitFh8A0zI

Even this idiot knows that what works for you won't work for me.

This is who you get your advice from. BWwahhhahahhhhahahhaaaaa:eek:

Cirino83
07-30-2008, 09:38 AM
^^^^ it's sad to admit that Valentino's advice in that clip was better than 90% of the people on this board.

vdizenzo
07-30-2008, 09:40 AM
I have been searching high and low and I have found no clear cut answer on the how much protein a person can assimilate in one meal. So this thread has become nothing more than mental masturbation. So I will just continue with my 60 grams of protein 6x a day.

Travis Bell
07-30-2008, 10:11 AM
I'm with you Vin, thats about how much I try and consume per meal as well

Ben Moore
07-30-2008, 10:17 AM
If some people don't like the information on this board, change it. It starts with you. You don't like something...put something out there better. Quit bitching and get it done. Seriously...

Cirino83
07-30-2008, 10:31 AM
whose bitching? I was simply saying that the video had a solid theme to it "what works for some might not work for others" and I'm guessing he knows a little something about bodybuilding. Sure he is a douche overall but his advice is good. It's not saying I am big and huge and better than everyone so you should listen to me and shutup. I admire you PLers for your strength and everything, but you have to remember not everyone wants to be able to bench 10000 or weigh 300. Me personally would take a lean 220 with a 4-something bench anyday.

anyways I'm going to stop trolling on WBB, quit my job and spend more time in the gym so I can "get it done"

vdizenzo
07-30-2008, 10:45 AM
whose bitching? I was simply saying that the video had a solid theme to it "what works for some might not work for others" and I'm guessing he knows a little something about bodybuilding. Sure he is a douche overall but his advice is good. It's not saying I am big and huge and better than everyone so you should listen to me and shutup. I admire you PLers for your strength and everything, but you have to remember not everyone wants to be able to bench 10000 or weigh 300. Me personally would take a lean 220 with a 4-something bench anyday.

anyways I'm going to stop trolling on WBB, quit my job and spend more time in the gym so I can "get it done"

It was my question, so I am not really interested in your goals. This is another example of someone having to prove he or she is right. I just wanted answers to my questions.

vdizenzo
07-30-2008, 10:46 AM
By the way, I'm sick with a bad cold so I have lots of time to dedicate to this.

WillKuenzel
07-30-2008, 10:51 AM
Ben did a great job of explaining things to ease the tension but it just got ******ed again. Funny how most pro bodybuilders have nutritionists who went to college for nutrition, yet everyone here seems to think experience works the best. Well guess what, REGARDLESS of what your experience proves, there are scientific protocols that have gone on inside your body to change your composition. I don't think that anybody here is saying that science ain't useful. Most of the big powerlifters here have at some point talked to those that have studied and done their time in the books. But there comes a time when theory and application of that theory ****s it up. Experience weighs heavily because really it all dates back to stuff that has worked. I think the big message is spend as muh time under the bar as you do with your nose in a book. Those pro bodybuilders with nutritionist vary everything they do at some point to fit the needs of that individual. If all the answers were in the books, then they wouldn't need to keep records. You need to understand the science to some degree but don't think that experience can't take you places either.


We are ancient bodies in a new world. We have the body of animals... a body that doesn't know when it's next meal will come. A body that prefers a bit more fat than muscle to help get through the winter. A body like this WILL NOT waste anything. You think ancient humans normally at every 2 hours? Hell no. They got one huge meal every day or so. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't eat for 1-2 days. So I think large meals don't make much of a difference.While I mostly agree, I can't help but imagine that things have evolved for us just a little in the past couple thousand years. Man was smart enough to cultivate the earth during the time of the Mayans and before. I can only imagine that our ancestors may have been a bit different. I don't think we've completely gone the way it being necessary to eat every 2 hours but I'll be damned if it ain't a whole lot easier.


I think that's where most of you are getting confused; this ain't about what the body can or can't do but more about what works for you. Now I'm a big believer that we're all pretty much the same. Me and the next guy are basically the same at the genetic level. Hell, genetically there ain't much that separates us from pigs. The science behind the ****... sure we could be doing the exact same thing and get results. The mind and our conscious change that. If I'm bulking, there's no way in hell I'm going to eat the necessary calories I need while doing intermittent fasting. Now over the past 12 weeks or so, I did something very similar to help lose weight. I retained my strength and lost about 15lbs. It was easier to starve myself and eat my ass off at the end of the day than eat these little piss-ant meals that just made me more angry, but I could have done either.

ryuage
07-30-2008, 11:26 AM
By the way, I'm sick with a bad cold so I have lots of time to dedicate to this.

me too... for like a week now. I have a lot of time to read :thumbup:

Auburn
07-30-2008, 12:03 PM
I have been searching high and low and I have found no clear cut answer on the how much protein a person can assimilate in one meal.

There is no set number outside of what your appetite/GI will allow. With higher intake utilization efficiency goes down, which is where the old 30-35g number comes from. But, it's not a big enough hit in efficiency to negate the extra intake.

Holto
07-30-2008, 12:13 PM
I think the big message is spend as muh time under the bar as you do with your nose in a book.

I'm going to have to assume you don't mean this literally. I train with weights for no more than an hour per day. Playing sports, up to 4 hours in a day. I can easily read 6 hours a night, especially if it's a text book.

Experience is obviously very important, but it's not remotely scientific. Just like a clinical study with 1 participant will never have credibility.






While I mostly agree, I can't help but imagine that things have evolved for us just a little in the past couple thousand years.

Evolution is driven by the need to survive. Having a McDonalds on every corner is not challenging our existence. Allowing 1 gram of protein to pass through our digestive tracts does.

Jorge Sanchez
07-30-2008, 12:16 PM
I came across a quote that I think is appropriate for this thread:


Many texts have ... been written by practitioners, but they typically lack a sound scientific basis. For each of these, there is a text written by a PhD that lacks the usefulness that only experience can provide.

vdizenzo
07-30-2008, 12:33 PM
I came across a quote that I think is appropriate for this thread:

Jorge, you are my new favorite person. Great quote.

Notorious
07-30-2008, 12:59 PM
I'll stick to drinking 4, 75g protein shakes and eating 150-200g of whole food. It works, despite the "studies". Who's gonna tell me I'm wrong, now?

I dunno man, Tennessee Mike says 35g a sitting, and he knows from experience so I guess he must be right.

Deeder wins the thread.

RhodeHouse
07-30-2008, 01:13 PM
There is no God. Buddha, Jesus, Satan - they don't exist. I'm sure of it. When did weightlifting become about science? I'm so glad I missed that F@#$ing craze. I'm too happy being jacked and strong. All my progress would've ruined if I found science. This saddens me to no end. To know that there are good people out there being corrupted by the "lies" of science. "The good science book" says it is so, so it is. Kinda sounds like a religious cult to me. Moses parted the Red Sea and led the Jews somewhere. I guess Mark Rippettoe and Lyle MacDonald have parted the Whey Sea and are leading the guys that can read on a vision quest. I'm gald I'm so dumb and unable to read that well. Vision quests scare me. I think they touch the questers in the special place. "I need an adult!" "Stranger Danger!" "Please, stop touching me!" (crying and sobbing)

Damn Science to Hell!

CrazyK
07-30-2008, 01:34 PM
All researching is, is finding the best most efficient means to do things from experienced and knowledgable individuals. One learns from a variety of things but reading the templates and essays of the best lifters in the world provides valuable knowledge and insight.

I don't know why you're against that Rhodes? I'm not talking about reading studies based from PhD's with no experience in the field of weight training. I'm talking about reading the essays, templates, and articles of people like Louie Simmons, Dave Tate, Mark Rippetoe and the like. The internet just provides one with an efficient and easy way to access the knowledge of these people and apply it to one's training.

vdizenzo
07-30-2008, 01:51 PM
Quick, someone get Rhodes a sleeve of oreos. He's freaking out.

ryuage
07-30-2008, 01:54 PM
or twinkies

frank
07-30-2008, 02:18 PM
Obviously. If you get that far, you might as well finish the job. What's the sense in leaving 2 people frustrated? If you paint one house, it doesn't make you a house painter, right? So, sucking one cokk doesn't make you a cokksucker.

Up the dose if this seems gay to you.

serious? :eek:

WillNoble
07-30-2008, 02:19 PM
Very cool. I'll be done with work at 8:30 eastern standard time. I think I'm an hour ahead of you guys.


Indeed, call you around 9p EST