Joe Biden - Any Thoughts?

[BilltheButcher]

I think this is a pretty intelligent pick by the Obama camp. He is an attack dog and has been doing so in his Judicial Review seat. He was very funny in the Democratic primary. Not sure if he brings a state with him, but he is definetly blue collar (even though his son is one of the highest paid lobbyists in DC).

Besides having the 3rd most liberal voting record in the Senate, and he has voted for almost every tax increase since coming into office in 72'. I don't know a ton about him, which is why i started this thread.

[Tennessee Mike]

I like Biden,always have.I remember after 911 he was very outspoken on a number of things.He's passionate,and has alot of experience.

[smokinHawk]

he's a douchebag just like obama, but now this new politic change thing was just a scam, raising everyones taxes is what its all about now for the dems.

[Chubrock]

I think Biden stating that he didn't believe Obama was ready to be president and that if McCain offered him the VP spot, he'd gladly take it, says a lot. I think you're going to hear those two statements quite a bit over the next several months and Obama should be prepared to be in the spotlight less than his VP running mate...

[smokinHawk]

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/08/hillary_support.html

[Notorious]

Anyone remember the Biden speech plagiarism scandal? I'd be surprised if that doesn't come up sometime...

[Phenom]

*Awaiting all the liberal-bashing right wingers who have everything there is to know about politics figured out*

[smokinHawk]

*Awaiting all the liberal-bashing right wingers who have everything there is to know about politics figured out*

right here bud, come join us, we have cookies:evillaugh:

[zen]

bad move...
throw a boring, old, white, establishment politician on a ticket with mr.mtv star kid?

They should have made peace with Hillary. Seriously.
I really think Obama could have pulled this thing off with the female vote in his camp.

[Genacide]

right here bud, come join us, we have cookies:evillaugh:

Cookies... We have guns, tobacco, and alcohol.

[ncsuLuke]

bad move...
throw a boring, old, white, establishment politician on a ticket with mr.mtv star kid?

They should have made peace with Hillary. Seriously.
I really think Obama could have pulled this thing off with the female vote in his camp.

except them obama would have always had to be in fear of his life

[Tennessee Mike]

.
I really think Obama could have pulled this thing off with the female vote in his camp.

He's still gonna "Pull it off".Mccain has no chance of actually winning this thing.And I assume he's gonna pick someone crustier.Its a shame,because I was a huge Mccain fan until he started opening his mouth.He's beyond out of touch.

[zen]

He's still gonna "Pull it off".Mccain has no chance of actually winning this thing.And I assume he's gonna pick someone crustier.Its a shame,because I was a huge Mccain fan until he started opening his mouth.He's beyond out of touch.

That's true. Really.
and I don't see McCain's choice for VP making a heck of a lot of difference. They're all pretty much old white establishment types. Only maybe Condoleezza Rice would put a huge dynamic into the ticket, and that's just not going to happen, I guess.

[Genacide]

That's true. Really.
and I don't see McCain's choice for VP making a heck of a lot of difference. They're all pretty much old white establishment types. Only maybe Condoleezza Rice would put a huge dynamic into the ticket, and that's just not going to happen, I guess.

I think it would make some waves and possibly get him elected easier if he picked Ron Paul.

[smokinHawk]

He's still gonna "Pull it off".Mccain has no chance of actually winning this thing.And I assume he's gonna pick someone crustier.Its a shame,because I was a huge Mccain fan until he started opening his mouth.He's beyond out of touch.

then why is mccain a bit ahead in the polls?
there still is a large part of america that still have values, and they do go out and vote, so obamas chances are fading away.

[BFGUITAR]

His speech made him stupid when he talked about steroids. It seemed like he brought up his own experiences of not being good enough in sports as a scapegoat for steroid abuse.

[Tennessee Mike]

then why is mccain a bit ahead in the polls?
there still is a large part of america that still have values, and they do go out and vote, so obamas chances are fading away.

No offense,but you come off as having a very narrow minded, old timers philosophy that The Dems are all liberals who are gay and worship the devil,and the Reps are good moral christians.I know your not that naive bro.Theres no way anyone could be that close minded.But at least someone like myself has always voted for who he felt was the best candidate regardless of party.In each of your posts you bash the Democratic party.Why?Were you raised that way?I mean,I voted for Bush twice,I wanted to go to war,I like apple pie and american made vehicles.But even though Im not a Mccain fan,I dont spend all my time bashing him or calling him a "Douchebag".I respect the hell out of what he went through as a prisoner of war(as did my uncle),but thats not enough for me to elect him.

[Bam Bam]

i ike the fact that he said obama wasnt ready to be president.

[blackboard]

Besides having the 3rd most liberal voting record in the Senate, and he has voted for almost every tax increase since coming into office in 72'. I don't know a ton about him, which is why i started this thread.

Obama could have pick Christ for VP and you would be talking about him taxing the rich in the New Testament.

[ncsuLuke]

Obama could have pick Christ for VP and you would be talking about him taxing the rich in the New Testament.

Obama could have picked a turd sandwich and you would say what a great pick it was

[BilltheButcher]

Obama could have pick Christ for VP and you would be talking about him taxing the rich in the New Testament.

I won't be surprised if the pundits edit the Bible to include Obama as the messiah come back to earth. We'll see how much better off we are in 4 years once Obama gets in. I'll admit I was wrong if things are going better, but I have a funny feeling if they aren't you'll be blaming Republicans for fillibustering or it'll be Bush's fault , but no way will it be Obama's fault or Democrat led Congress. By the way, how has the first 2 years of a Democrat led Congress been?

[anelka]

Obama could have picked a turd sandwich and you would say what a great pick it was

People like you are the reason democracy doesn't work.

You have to laugh at the comment before about people voting McCain because they have values. Of course by values they mean 'won't vote for a ******'.

[BilltheButcher]

People like you are the reason democracy doesn't work.

You have to laugh at the comment before about people voting McCain because they have values. Of course by values they mean 'won't vote for a ******'.

Jeeze for someone who is a tree hugging, societal leech socialist you really throw the "N" word around. This is like the 3rd thread you use it, in addition to calling asian people "orientals". I didn't realize socialists were skinheads too.

[zen]

People like you are the reason democracy doesn't work.

You have to laugh at the comment before about people voting McCain because they have values. Of course by values they mean 'won't vote for a ******'.

Why is it that whenever someone has an opinion, and that opinion isn't the same as yours, then suddenly the person is one (or all) of the following:

1) Divides the country

2) bad for democracy

3) unpatriotic

4) just plain stupid


Anelka, this is a forum. People have opinions. Opinions are not right or wrong, they are opinions. This is not a publication. No one here pretends to state facts (okay, maybe some actually pretend that, haha).
Granted, I understand that you thinking that someone's opinion is bad for democracy is an opinion in itself, but I personally find that statement to be an oxymoron. When people have differing perspectives, that is GOOD for democracy.

[smokinHawk]

No offense,but you come off as having a very narrow minded, old timers philosophy that The Dems are all liberals who are gay and worship the devil,and the Reps are good moral christians.I know your not that naive bro.Theres no way anyone could be that close minded.But at least someone like myself has always voted for who he felt was the best candidate regardless of party.In each of your posts you bash the Democratic party.Why?Were you raised that way?I mean,I voted for Bush twice,I wanted to go to war,I like apple pie and american made vehicles.But even though Im not a Mccain fan,I dont spend all my time bashing him or calling him a "Douchebag".I respect the hell out of what he went through as a prisoner of war(as did my uncle),but thats not enough for me to elect him.

i try to be open minded but i dont like the way the dem party is going, dont like the tree hugging they have been doing which realy hurts the economy, dont like they way they want to tax more, dont like the were they stand on the abortion issue, dont like the way they are trying to limit firearms, and dont like where they stand on the aboriton issues.

why i like mccain over obama, is because e wants to lower taxes for every one and boost revunes, wants energy independes and to expand it and to lower the cost of energy while obama wants to limit energy and tax it more
also where he stands on abortion and guns compard to obama.
now i know mccain is like any polition and might say allot but not do much, but if he does half the things he says he is going to try and do, it will be better then if obama does some of the stuff he says he's going to do.

[ncsuLuke]

People like you are the reason democracy doesn't work.

You have to laugh at the comment before about people voting McCain because they have values. Of course by values they mean 'won't vote for a ******'.

lol what the **** are you talking about?

do they have midol in england?

[SobaAddict70]

His nickname is "Recurring Nightmare".

I'm on the fence with him....then again Obambi wouldn't have been my choice for candidate either.

[themidnighter]

This is a really, really smart choice for Obama. Not only is Biden blue collar and heavily experienced, but he's also one of, if not THE, foremost foreign policy experts in congress. It's a shrewd move that allows the Obama camp to slough off the shackles of 8 years of Democrat ineptitude, of which H. Clinton was a chief contributer (and of which Biden was a harsh critic), and create a new face for his party. Not to mention he's a pro-life, white Catholic male who has served in the Senate for 38 years. Strategically, he fills every hole in the Obama mythos.

I voted for Biden in the primary. He's a strong politician that doesn't kowtow to his party mandates, he's an affable diplomat, and he's always brings logic and reason to the table.

Apparently, I think he's aces. :)

[zen]

I voted for Biden in the primary. He's a strong politician that doesn't kowtow to his party mandates, he's an affable diplomat, and he's always brings logic and reason to the table.

Apparently, I think he's aces. :)

With that glowing review, it almost sounds like he should have been the presidential candidate, and Obama the VP (in the wings for presidency after he gets his feet wet).

[ncsuLuke]

Biden, on a post-debate appearance on MSNBC, October 30, 2007: “The only guy on the other side who’s qualified is John McCain.”

Biden appearing on The Daily Show, August 2, 2005: “John McCain is a personal friend, a great friend, and I would be honored to run with or against John McCain, because I think the country would be better off, be well off no matter who...”

On Meet the Press, November 27, 2005: “I’ve been calling for more troops for over two years, along with John McCain and others subsequent to my saying that.”


http://www.slate.com/id/2198597/


Biden's puttering campaign for president effectively died on Sept. 13, 1987, when the New York Times' Maureen Dowd reported that he had pinched major elements of a recent and celebrated speech by Labor Party leader Neil Kinnock.


As E.J. Dionne Jr. reported in the previously mentioned Times article, he "plagiarized a law review article for a paper he wrote in his first year at law school" at the Syracuse University College of Law. According to a Dec. 1, 1965, report by the law school, five pages of Biden's 15-page paper were copied without quotation or attribution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden

I know it is wikipedia but it is still factual


When questioned by a New Hampshire resident about his grades in law school, Biden had inaccurately recollected graduating in the "top half" of his class when he actually graduated 76th from 85, that he had attended on a full scholarship, and had received three degrees.[35] He had received two majors, History and Political Science, and a single B.A., as well as a half scholarship based on financial need.


Just a few things about Biden

[Tennessee Mike]

Biden, on a post-debate appearance on MSNBC, October 30, 2007: “The only guy on the other side who’s qualified is John McCain.”

Biden appearing on The Daily Show, August 2, 2005: “John McCain is a personal friend, a great friend, and I would be honored to run with or against John McCain, because I think the country would be better off, be well off no matter who...”

On Meet the Press, November 27, 2005: “I’ve been calling for more troops for over two years, along with John McCain and others subsequent to my saying that.”


http://www.slate.com/id/2198597/





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden

I know it is wikipedia but it is still factual




Just a few things about Biden

Uh,this is not news my friend.Everyone knows what he said,and so did Obama.Obviously it didnt deter him from picking him to help run the country.Looks like you find more merit in it than he did.Its like posting "Giants beat Pats".Its old news.I think alot of politicians and voters knew little of Obama until last year.He impressed alot of folks and peoples minds have changed.Just like peoples minds have changed about Mccain this year.

[ncsuLuke]

Uh,this is not news my friend.Everyone knows what he said,and so did Obama.Obviously it didnt deter him from picking him to help run the country.Looks like you find more merit in it than he did.Its like posting "Giants beat Pats".Its old news.I think alot of politicians and voters knew little of Obama until last year.He impressed alot of folks and peoples minds have changed.Just like peoples minds have changed about Mccain this year.

No kidding it is not news, most of it happened back in the 80's and before but the average american sure doesn't know these things. And we still don't know jack about Obama because he hasn't done jack in the first place...but he is for hope and change, change that we can believe in.

[SobaAddict70]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3045/2674372871_5c96292a37_o.gif

Is this change you can believe in?

Also Biden undercuts Obambi's campaign premise. Being a Senator for 30+ years and a Washington insider doesn't scream "change". People are too stupid to realize this.

[anelka]

Anelka, this is a forum. People have opinions.

And on this forum, you're only allowed an opinion if you're a far-right libertarian with an SUV and a shotgun.


When people have differing perspectives, that is GOOD for democracy.

It's not good for democracy when people base their voting choices on absolutely ridiculous reasons that have no bearing on actual government, or who change their vote with every media spin story.

[anelka]

i try to be open minded but i dont like the way the dem party is going, dont like the tree hugging they have been doing which realy hurts the economy


why i like mccain over obama, is because e wants to lower taxes for every one and boost revunes, wants energy independes and to expand it and to lower the cost of energy while obama wants to limit energy and tax it more

You know, McBush's energy and taxation policy may look good in the short term, but it will destroy America's economy in the future. Likewise, Obama's policies may hurt in the short term, but it will make America much stronger in the future.

Follow McBush's path of burying his head in the sand and chasing cheap gas, then you'll really be ****ed when oil gets up to $200-300 a barrel and you're all still driving 10mpg SUVs, especially when you're reduced to low-yield high-cost shale and the middle-east has run dry.

But go on, vote Republican because you're anti-abortion, even though Republicans have no intention of ever banning abortion. Vote Republican because you hate taxes, even though McBush's short-term tax-cutting and war-mongering policies drive up the national debt, meaning that in the long-term you'll be taxed through the nose just to pay off the interest. Clinton's balanced budget was overrated anyway, better to have a Republican to cut taxes and start a war.

But hey, who cares if Republicanism screws you over in ten years time, that's like forever.

[zen]

And on this forum, you're only allowed an opinion if you're a far-right libertarian with an SUV and a shotgun.

a far-right libertarian? wow!

...and, I don't see how you can make that complaint. You are probably the #1 opinion-giving, political thread reviver on this site. These threads would run their natural coarse and die a natural death if it wasn't for you.



It's not good for democracy when people base their voting choices on absolutely ridiculous reasons that have no bearing on actual government, or who change their vote with every media spin story.

It is the epitome of democacy when people of differing perspectives are enfranchised to participate in the selection of representatives. If everyone thought the same way, there would be no need for elections. You could appoint one dictator.

[smokinHawk]

You know, McBush's energy and taxation policy may look good in the short term, but it will destroy America's economy in the future. Likewise, Obama's policies may hurt in the short term, but it will make America much stronger in the future.

Follow McBush's path of burying his head in the sand and chasing cheap gas, then you'll really be ****ed when oil gets up to $200-300 a barrel and you're all still driving 10mpg SUVs, especially when you're reduced to low-yield high-cost shale and the middle-east has run dry.

But go on, vote Republican because you're anti-abortion, even though Republicans have no intention of ever banning abortion. Vote Republican because you hate taxes, even though McBush's short-term tax-cutting and war-mongering policies drive up the national debt, meaning that in the long-term you'll be taxed through the nose just to pay off the interest. Clinton's balanced budget was overrated anyway, better to have a Republican to cut taxes and start a war.

But hey, who cares if Republicanism screws you over in ten years time, that's like forever.

i keep on asking you why do american politics concern you? Let us run our country the way we want to, you would think you English would have learned your lesson when we kicked your butt durring our indepence war.:evillaugh:

if i want to drive a 10mpg suv its my right to, we live in a free country and not everyone likes small cars, the technology will advance to bring mpg standards up in due time that they are. Oil will be here a long time, we have plenty of it in the USA if the democrats wouldnt block us from getting it ourselfs, which would boost our economy.

Life should be the most important issue for the USA, we all should have the God given right to live, if people take that away no other rights matter. sure i wish the republicans would do more for the abortion issue (which was why i was behind huckebee) but Obama doesnt even respect the life of a child born alive after an attempted abortion, which is horrific. McCains value of life is much higher, look how he adopted a child that was about to die.

yes one of the problems is that we havent had a balanced budjet for a while and this new direction congress had made it allot worse, the economy wasnt that bad till they got in and screwed up allot of stuff.
Mccain promises a balanced budjet just like obama, obama wants to raise spending and skyrocket taxes, Mccain wants to lower spending and lower taxes and increase revune ou would have to be an idiot that loves to give away your money if you would want obama in office, fact of the matter is mccains plans are just better.
only thing clinton did good was he balenced the budjet, after Regan put in allot of good policys that got us out of a recesson. But back then the economy wasnt that great, i was worried about being layed off during that time more then any other time.
Yes i hope mccain isnt all talk then doesnt do any thing sure, but what he says is better then what obama plans to do

so sure support deomocrats so they can screw you over and over

[zen]

i keep on asking you why do american politics concern you? Let us run our country the way we want to, you would think you English would have learned your lesson when we kicked your butt durring our indepence war.:evillaugh:

He is entitled to his opinion, of course, but he is so active in these topics that it really comes off feeling like active propaganda.

Seriously though, I always wonder why socialists in the U.S. want sooooo badly to force EVERYONE into their scheme of things.... but really I know the answer why. If everyone doesn't participate in their system, it collapses faster, because the only ones left inside a socialist system that gives people a choice whether to participate are the takers.... which of course, is what socialism is all about.

But still, that I can understand. What I can't figure out why is when people from europe try soooo freakin' hard to convince us that we need to be socialist. Why is it so damned important to them?

[Phenom]

Oil will be here a long time, we have plenty of it in the USA if the democrats wouldnt block us from getting it ourselfs, which would boost our economy.

Right, blame the liberals for everything. I bet it's the liberals fault for 9/11 too. Do you honestly think that if we discovered oil in Alaska or wherever for that matter, the consumers will see any benefit? Are you telling me the nice oil companies are going to decide to be generous with their new oil when they know they can still pound us in the ass at the pumps, regardless of the supply?

Maybe you still buy into the idea that the prices at the pumps are due to the "oil crisis," and not because they know there is a high demand and they can get away with basically any price they want. It amazes me that gas prices will go up 3 or 4 times each week, and all the pro-bushies out there aren't even bothered by it. Maybe it doesn't matter to them that prices are going up for gasoline that's already been refined, shipped, and paid for at one price, or maybe it's because they're so ****ing caught up in the republican agenda and their heads are so far up their asses that they're still living in this fantasy world where they think every republican out there is looking out for the peoples best interest.

[ncsuLuke]

1. Do you understand how a commodity market such as oil functions?

2. Do you realize that gas prices have been falling?

3. Do you realize that the profit margin for oil companies are not higher than 8%?

4. Do you really think that adding more oil to the world supply will not cause a change in oil prices?

those are serious questions by the way

[zen]

supply & demand is a concept.

Some people don't get it and never will.
Some people get it very intuitively. They never even have to hear the words "supply", "demand", "scarcity", "markets", or anything else, and they will intuitively recognize how you can get more in return form things that are in limited availability, particularly when people need it badly enough.

But if someone doesn't understand it, you can't explain it to them. They can't learn it. You can throw all the words and metaphors at them you want. All they know in their mind is that you should just be able to pass some laws and somehow, prices will get cheaper.

[smokinHawk]

1. Do you understand how a commodity market such as oil functions?

2. Do you realize that gas prices have been falling?

3. Do you realize that the profit margin for oil companies are not higher than 8%?

4. Do you really think that adding more oil to the world supply will not cause a change in oil prices?

those are serious questions by the way

ofcoarse not they still believe that obamas campagn ads of the big evil oil companies are out to steal everyones money and fill up their thick pockets.

[BilltheButcher]

Paris Hilton has the best energy policy of these two jokers.

[smokinHawk]

Paris Hilton has the best energy policy of these two jokers.

paris hilton copied mccains energy plan exept said "limited offshore drilling" and left out nuclear power, compared to how mccain would like the states to choose.
now if he would be in for drilling in anwar.

[BilltheButcher]

But go on, vote Republican because you're anti-abortion, even though Republicans have no intention of ever banning abortion.

Ya, once I heard Nancy Pelosi explain abortion to me I totally got it. She just had to drill into my head. But hopefully she'll get the fairness doctrine passed and the Democrats can stifle any form of free speech.

[BilltheButcher]

And on this forum, you're only allowed an opinion if you're a far-right libertarian with an SUV and a shotgun.



It's not good for democracy when people base their voting choices on absolutely ridiculous reasons that have no bearing on actual government, or who change their vote with every media spin story.

People bash you because you are a finger pointer, like many liberals are. You can point your finger and say, "Your doing that wrong." but you will have no viable solutions. And you are a total glass half empty person. Here is an example:

Someone will post a thread like this. "We got a puppy today and my children are so excited. They love that puppy, you should see them play with him in the backyard. It is so funny to watch them."

Your response to the thread. "You do know puppies are breeding grounds for tape worm and did you say children? How many kids do you have, you do know that their carbon foot of a family of four will exceed the carbon foot print of a family of three by 2 million pounds throughout the lifetime of that family. You really should have considered aborting one of the kids so that it would not affect your fellow neighbor. I really think there should be a tax on people who have more then one kid, anyone who has more then one kid should have 99% of their income donated to everyone who doesn't have kids and if you have a dog also that last 1% should also be confiscated to go directly to those that want to have a dog but don't want the responsibility of taking care of something."

[smokinHawk]

^i Lol"d

[Genacide]

People bash you because you are a finger pointer, like many liberals are. You can point your finger and say, "Your doing that wrong." but you will have no viable solutions. And you are a total glass half empty person. Here is an example:

Someone will post a thread like this. "We got a puppy today and my children are so excited. They love that puppy, you should see them play with him in the backyard. It is so funny to watch them."

Your response to the thread. "You do know puppies are breeding grounds for tape worm and did you say children? How many kids do you have, you do know that their carbon foot of a family of four will exceed the carbon foot print of a family of three by 2 million pounds throughout the lifetime of that family. You really should have considered aborting one of the kids so that it would not affect your fellow neighbor. I really think there should be a tax on people who have more then one kid, anyone who has more then one kid should have 99% of their income donated to everyone who doesn't have kids and if you have a dog also that last 1% should also be confiscated to go directly to those that want to have a dog but don't want the responsibility of taking care of something."

Best post in this thread.

A good read for anyone intrested: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/27/beck.conventions/index.html

[=Travis=]

A good read for anyone intrested: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/27/beck.conventions/index.html

Good read

[bigmoney]

The fact, among others, that he is a high ranking member of the CFR concerns me greatly.

[BilltheButcher]

Bob Barr is on Glenn Beck tonight FYI. He has his issues, but what are the choices.

[blackboard]

yes one of the problems is that we havent had a balanced budjet for a while and this new direction congress had made it allot worse, the economy wasnt that bad till they got in and screwed up allot of stuff.
Mccain promises a balanced budjet just like obama, obama wants to raise spending and skyrocket taxes, Mccain wants to lower spending and lower taxes and increase revune ou would have to be an idiot that loves to give away your money if you would want obama in office, fact of the matter is mccains plans are just better.
only thing clinton did good was he balenced the budjet, after Regan put in allot of good policys that got us out of a recesson. But back then the economy wasnt that great, i was worried about being layed off during that time more then any other time.
Yes i hope mccain isnt all talk then doesnt do any thing sure, but what he says is better then what obama plans to do

so sure support deomocrats so they can screw you over and over
95% of Americans taxes won't go up under Obama plan(Repeat X50) It wouldn't hurt to actually research his tax plan instead of just screaming Liberal followed by OMG! Skyrocket taxes,big government,welfare, etc.When the Conservative controlled the White House and Congress at one point the budget deficit got bigger. Cry about social programs but at least the money is going into the country. Conservatives will create more gov't with the Patriot Act, Homeland Security and you tax dollars not spent on “social programs” will get spent outside of the US on foreign agendas like wars, foreign aid, war on terror. Also the Liberals will at least tax and spend while the republicans will spend more as revenue decreases.

[nejar462]

I'm not picking sides between McCain and Obama because doing so would like feel like trying to choose death either by electrocution or beheading.

There are two points to make. I should point out that while Obama's tax plan would only DIRECTLY tax 5% of Americans more, however, this effectively taxes the entire economy.

1.) This is because people in that income bracket are GENERALLY better able to spend their money more efficiently than the United States Governments, simply because they can make better investment decisions. This means that society's resources are spent less efficiently.

2.) Also, individuals who now earn that much are going to going to use tax cutting schemes and perhaps have less incentive to work as much, thereby reducing our work output of our, in general, best and brightest.

3.) When you tally the cost of government, you must always count government SPENDING, not taxation. This is because the government can always cover the shortfall through deficit spending, inflating the currency. The taxes are essentially just a way to cover the inflation up. Obama certainly does want to spend more.

4.) Obama has promised to pay for a lot of stuff, so I think there is a certain level of disbelief that he'll actually be able to pay for it without significantly raising taxes or deficit spending. Note 3. Also, when you subsidize behavior you encourage it, so say, when you subsidize poverty you actually encourage people to be POOR, which means it will cost more to implement any social program than you'd think.

5.) There is a cost to COLLECTING taxes and marginal cost in their implementation. Individuals may engage in economically inefficient actions to reduce their tax burden, and it takes resources to track taxes, and the higher the taxes are, the more they cost to track.

6.) Obama sort of flip flops. For example, he was always against oil drilling in America but now says he supports limited drilling. There was the decriminalization of marijuana thing, and also, IIRC, he did it with public financing and illegal immigration. There's nothing wrong with admitting you were wrong before, but I would at least mention it, it also does sort of make one lose trust.

I think thats most of the intelligent argument you can make against Obama's tax plan. In total they are the following: A tax on one of us is essentially a tax on all of us, he may not actually be able to pull it off, he has promised to spend a fantastic amount of money that he may not be able to raise, and he may not have taken into all of the hidden costs and pitfalls which may emerge.

I mean, McCain is not better than Obama in my mind, but I felt like I should point out some of the more superficial criticisms against Obama's tax plan.

I could go deeper but that would be more like freedom vs. totalitarianism masked as populism, and libertarian/minarchists vs. socialists/communists.

[nejar462]

Also, to be fair, you should really rename the estate tax as the 'unexpected death tax on stuff that has already been taxed at least twice before.'

[zen]

95% of Americans taxes won't go up under Obama plan(Repeat X50) It wouldn't hurt to actually research his tax plan instead of just screaming Liberal followed by OMG! Skyrocket taxes,big government,welfare, etc.When the Conservative controlled the White House and Congress at one point the budget deficit got bigger. Cry about social programs but at least the money is going into the country. Conservatives will create more gov't with the Patriot Act, Homeland Security and you tax dollars not spent on “social programs” will get spent outside of the US on foreign agendas like wars, foreign aid, war on terror. Also the Liberals will at least tax and spend while the republicans will spend more as revenue decreases.

You're right, i didn't "research" his plan. Can I do that at the library of congress?
I did heard him say was that he was going to repeal Bush's economic policies. While vague, what it means to me is the tax cuts are going away. Well, I liked my tax cut. I must be one of the 5%. Strange, I don't feel rich. In fact, according to statistics, I'm not even in the middle class.

It doesn't matter what either candidate promises anymore. It's the party apparatus in Washington that controls policy.

I still say, if you want a balanced budget, we need to go back to the situation we had in the mid-90s. Slightly stingier spending republicans in the congress (where the purse strings are) and a slightly less tax-break happy democrat in the white house.

[anelka]

i keep on asking you why do american politics concern you? Let us run our country the way we want to,

I'll do that when you stop invading anywhere you don't like, and put up a big wall so your pollution doesn't spread to the rest of the world. And stop wrecking the global economy by not paying your mortgages.


if i want to drive a 10mpg suv its my right to, we live in a free country

Fine, just stop whining about $4/gallon and invading middle-eastern countries to get the oil to run your suv.


McCains value of life is much higher, look how he adopted a child that was about to die.

He values life so much he wants to kill millions in the middle east. Maybe he values white life.


Mccain promises a balanced budjet just like obama, obama wants to raise spending and skyrocket taxes, Mccain wants to lower spending and lower taxes

McCain wants to increase warmongering. How is that cutting spending?


after Regan put in allot of good policys that got us out of a recesson.

All Reagan did was borrow a load of money and hope someone else paid it back later. Same as Bush really.

[zen]

We invaded Iraq when oil prices were dirt cheap. Back then, all the moveon.org nutters were saying we invaded to take the oil.
Later, after we didn't take the oil, they claim it was a secret conspiracy, and haliburton was really taking it.
Then, when prices went up, the revised their conspiracy yet again, and they said that Bush wanted higher prices because they help his oil buddies.

It's all politics as usual. The propaganda suits the motive.

Now, if Clinton had gone into Iraq (and whenever he talked about it, Those currently anti-war democrats were surprisingly hawkish in their support for him), those same moveon.org people would be calling the president a great liberator of oppressed people.

I just get so sick of all the hipocracy.

[blackboard]

We invaded Iraq when oil prices were dirt cheap. Back then, all the moveon.org nutters were saying we invaded to take the oil.
Later, after we didn't take the oil, they claim it was a secret conspiracy, and haliburton was really taking it.
Then, when prices went up, the revised their conspiracy yet again, and they said that Bush wanted higher prices because they help his oil buddies.

It's all politics as usual. The propaganda suits the motive.

Now, if Clinton had gone into Iraq (and whenever he talked about it, Those currently anti-war democrats were surprisingly hawkish in their support for him), those same moveon.org people would be calling the president a great liberator of oppressed people.

I just get so sick of all the hipocracy.

Well the bottom line is that we took the oil in Iraq this time.. Mission accomplished, US oil companies now have the contracts in Iraq.Thanks for continuing to defend the republicans. Just don't forget to post your one-liner on how you're not voting for Mccain but you will continue to scream at liberal based on fears or speculations of what might happen if they took office while ignoring the last 8 years.

I should question some people patriotism on this forum. I get plenty of OMG! from people when it comes to social programs in our country but silents about their tax dollars going to fund wars or foreign aid to other countries, the use of torture, the Patriot Act etc. What ever happen to country first?

[smokinHawk]

I'll do that when you stop invading anywhere you don't like, and put up a big wall so your pollution doesn't spread to the rest of the world. And stop wrecking the global economy by not paying your mortgages.
'um england went to war with sadam hussian to, and your country has a long history of doing the same thing, but more brutal with china, india and africa.
we gave iraq freedom and the basis for a good goverment, beleive it or not.our polution per area is less then the Uk's we dont pollut that much, and your an idiot if you think it causes global warming, fact of the matter is this year was colder then it was last year, oh and the ice caps still arent melted off yet.
Do you admit we hold the global economy in our hands because everyone in the world depends on us, without the Us the world would be a crappy place and under the Third Reich. Yes the US needs to have more financial responsiblity all partied need to heed to that



Fine, just stop whining about $4/gallon and invading middle-eastern countries to get the oil to run your suv.
we never took a drop of oil we didnt pay for, if you or your country had half a brian you'd realize how oil being the blood of economy feeds everthing effecting everything, cheap oil makes a company prosperous


He values life so much he wants to kill millions in the middle east. Maybe he values white life.
that is outright false, you are a racist yourself if you think that, McCain has never implied that he wants to kill mildeasterns but wants to help them establish their new nation and draw down the troops when their country is secure for them, leaving successfully other then obama wanting to leave their counrty in a aworld of hurt.


McCain wants to increase warmongering. How is that cutting spending?
i dont see Mccain stating that he wants to start anymore wars unlike obama wanting to invade pakistan, a supposide ally


All Reagan did was borrow a load of money and hope someone else paid it back later. Same as Bush really.

regan ended the cold war, brought our Country in the 21rst centry as the strongest nation currently, without him we wouldnt be the great nation we are now

God Bless the USA

[zen]

Well the bottom line is that we took the oil in Iraq this time.. Mission accomplished, US oil companies now have the contracts in Iraq.Thanks for continuing to defend the republicans. Just don't forget to post your one-liner on how you're not voting for Mccain but you will continue to scream at liberal based on fears or speculations of what might happen if they took office while ignoring the last 8 years.

I should question some people patriotism on this forum. I get plenty of OMG! from people when it comes to social programs in our country but silents about their tax dollars going to fund wars or foreign aid to other countries, the use of torture, the Patriot Act etc. What ever happen to country first?

I wasn't defending republicans directly. I call out hypocrisy from both sides when I see it. I have done it here before many times, as well as being on record for having been against the war before we went in.

You only respond to me when I call out the democrats because that is what you are sensitive to.

[Genacide]

Well the bottom line is that we took the oil in Iraq this time.. Mission accomplished, US oil companies now have the contracts in Iraq.

US oil companies have contracts to setup oil wells, not to take the oil. China has done the same thing in Iraq, only larger. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/28/AR2008082802200.html?hpid=moreheadlines

[=Travis=]

And stop wrecking the global economy by not paying your mortgages.


I could really give two ****s about this discussion or Obama or McCain as both suck and I'll most likely vote for the lesser of the evils, McCain.
But paying mortgages? Do you realize how many trillions your country as well as France owes us from back in WWI and WWII? THe interest payment alone could fund our country's government.

[BilltheButcher]

I should question some people patriotism on this forum. I get plenty of OMG! from people when it comes to social programs in our country but silents about their tax dollars going to fund wars or foreign aid to other countries, the use of torture, the Patriot Act etc. What ever happen to country first?

I think most people dislike the money being spent on the war and also all the social programs Obama wants to add. Did you listen to the speech? It was dripping with socialism, very, very scary for small business owners like myself. And let me see if this will sink in - if Obama ends the Iraq war, a big if, those troops are just going somewhere else Afghanistan etc. So not sure why Democrat voters think he is going to end the war when he is leaving the door wide open. Anyways I am prepared for Obamarter (Obama + Jimmy Carter) and a democrat run congress. Last time this happened we got the New Deal, socialism at its best. I believe they called themselves Progressives back then, just like Liberals are trying to brand themselves now.