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alex11012
10-17-2008, 09:21 PM
Is this a myth or not?

Could some of the very, very experienced lifters tell me if long term deadlifting has done any injuries to their backs.

Every bloke down my gym no matter how big and how long they lift does not do deadlifts because they are scared of injuring their back.

I do deadlifts with pretty good form but when I 1RM they are not perfect.

I also do not use a belt should I get one?

BigTallOx
10-17-2008, 09:32 PM
"Show me a completely safe exercise, I'll show you and ineffective exercise"

Mosnar
10-17-2008, 10:35 PM
nice Louie Simmons quote.

I actually have a question. Has anyone here ever injured themselves doing the rounded upper back/chest sink (kind of like Konstantinovs)? Just asking because my deadlift is much stronger using this form.

alex11012
10-18-2008, 11:25 AM
"Show me a completely safe exercise, I'll show you and ineffective exercise"

I agree safe exercises are ineffective and I deadlift a lot. I just want an indicator if I'm going mess up my back and if a belt and other equipment will help stop this.

butcher2
10-18-2008, 01:37 PM
A belt will help you stay tight. Some will argue you won't get an effective core workout with a belt, but ya know what, I'd rather stay tight through the lift than pull something. I've suffered 2 back injuries, both caused by deadlifting. Both were caused my improper form and my stupidity. If you listen to your body, you use correct form, you can avoid injuries. Yes, deadlifting caused me injuries, but it was only because I did the exercise wrong.

brihead301
10-18-2008, 02:12 PM
I just hurt my back the other day on my first attempt at 375 x 5. I completed the set, but I pulled my lower leftside of my back, and it hurt for about a week. Now, if my back wasn't conditioned from squatting and deadlifting for the past 2 years, I would have been hurt much worse, but the fact that I have a strong lower back caused me to only experience a minor pull of my back.

I'd say that you just have to be careful. Always maintain strict form, and don't try any ridiculous weights just for your ego's sake. I only take 5 lb. jumps with my deadlifting even though I'm sure my 1RM is up in the 400's.

ZenMonkey
10-18-2008, 02:17 PM
If you listen to your body, you use correct form, you can avoid injuries. Yes, deadlifting caused me injuries, but it was only because I did the exercise wrong.

:withstupi:

Ben Moore
10-18-2008, 09:00 PM
Is this a myth or not?

Could some of the very, very experienced lifters tell me if long term deadlifting has done any injuries to their backs.

Every bloke down my gym no matter how big and how long they lift does not do deadlifts because they are scared of injuring their back.

I do deadlifts with pretty good form but when I 1RM they are not perfect.

I also do not use a belt should I get one?

This is a sport with injuries. They are a part of it. If you want safe - go "tone". Seriously though - any time you are pushing your body to the limits there are going to be injuries. Keep a check on your form, eat, rest and prehab and you'll be fine.

butcher2
10-18-2008, 11:49 PM
:withstupi:

:confused:

Kenny Croxdale
10-19-2008, 09:02 AM
A belt will help you stay tight. Some will argue you won't get an effective core workout with a belt, but ya know what, I'd rather stay tight through the lift than pull something. I've suffered 2 back injuries, both caused by deadlifting. Both were caused my improper form and my stupidity. If you listen to your body, you use correct form, you can avoid injuries. Yes, deadlifting caused me injuries, but it was only because I did the exercise wrong.

Research by Duke University show the abdominals are used MORE when wearing a belt.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
10-19-2008, 09:20 AM
This is a sport with injuries. They are a part of it. If you want safe - go "tone". Seriously though - any time you are pushing your body to the limits there are going to be injuries. Keep a check on your form, eat, rest and prehab and you'll be fine.

I agree. However, the problem the lower back easily and quickly overtraining. It no wonder since the lower back is part of everything you do.

The deadlift is very taxing on the lower back. The problem many lifter have is they train the deadlift too heavy, too often.

That does not allow the lower back to recover. The lower back, any muscle group, is more prone to injury when it is tried or fatigued.

Most train the deadlift every 7 days or even longer, once every 10-14 days.

In working with two lifters (Mike Tronski and Phil Rivera), we found that deadlifting less often was better.

Mike deadlifted once every 14-21 days. Phil deadlifted once a month.

Lower back training in the week they weren't deadlifting was composed of Good Mornings and Olympic pulls.

When it comes to deadlifting remember that a little goes a long way.

Simmons' comment about the deadlift was, "Why do something that takes more than it gives back?" The inference was that the deadlift is a very taxing movement.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
10-19-2008, 09:36 AM
I only take 5 lb. jumps with my deadlifting even though I'm sure my 1RM is up in the 400's.

So, does that mean you "only take 5 lb jumps" on your 1RM, max deadlift?

While being cautious is a good thing, you don't want to be overly conservative.

Let you training poundage and reps guide you in your 1RM, max, selection. Over time, we all learn what our training poundage/reps will equate to on a 1RM, max lift.

Another thing that I learned from one of the great deadlifters, Chip McCain. McCain pulled a world record in 1979 of 799 lbs at 198 lbs.

In going over McCain's deadlift training, I noticed that McCain jumped his training weight in one session BEYOND what it should have been. McCain pulled the weight with power to spare.

I ask McCain why he jumped BEYOND what he should have taken. McCain replied, "Because I knew that I could."

Great athletes, at times, know what they can do. We all, to some extent, have this quality.

Kenny Croxdale

Sensei
10-19-2008, 09:39 AM
Kenny,

Didn't always agree with everything you've said or written, but I've always enjoyed your thoughts on boards, and in articles (PLUSA, etc). Nice to see you here.

Boris

butcher2
10-19-2008, 11:46 AM
Research by Duke University show the abdominals are used MORE when wearing a belt.

Kenny Croxdale

I wasn't saying that wearing a belt gives your abdominals less of a workout. I said some people will tell you that. I take everything people say with a grain of salt.

Ben Moore
10-19-2008, 01:19 PM
I agree. However, the problem the lower back easily and quickly overtraining. It no wonder since the lower back is part of everything you do.

The deadlift is very taxing on the lower back. The problem many lifter have is they train the deadlift too heavy, too often.

That does not allow the lower back to recover. The lower back, any muscle group, is more prone to injury when it is tried or fatigued.

Most train the deadlift every 7 days or even longer, once every 10-14 days.

In working with two lifters (Mike Tronski and Phil Rivera), we found that deadlifting less often was better.

Mike deadlifted once every 14-21 days. Phil deadlifted once a month.

Lower back training in the week they weren't deadlifting was composed of Good Mornings and Olympic pulls.

When it comes to deadlifting remember that a little goes a long way.

Simmons' comment about the deadlift was, "Why do something that takes more than it gives back?" The inference was that the deadlift is a very taxing movement.

Kenny Croxdale

good to have you here Kenny. Great thoughts.

BigTallOx
10-19-2008, 01:32 PM
abdominals are used MORE when wearing a belt.



Absolutely! I push my abs HARD against my belt before I go down to grab the bar and I keep them that way all the way through the lift. That keeps the lower back tight, and safe.

SoreFoot8343
10-19-2008, 02:18 PM
Don't go by me, but I never deadlift till day of the meet. I do all the other accesorie lifts to give me the strength for the meet. My back is messed up (broke my back in 98', hurniated entire lumbar spine and 2 torn disks that almost heal but not quite) thus I save myself till day of. IE: hypers,pull-ups, bent over rows or DB rows, pull overs and grip work are my main focus to get me there. And yes I DL w/ a belt! Hope that helps..

Notorious
10-19-2008, 05:58 PM
:confused:

lol, it means he agrees with you.

alex11012
10-19-2008, 06:39 PM
Kenny, Thank a lot for the advice. Really appreciate it.

Kenny Croxdale
10-20-2008, 06:10 AM
Kenny,

Didn't always agree with everything you've said or written, but I've always enjoyed your thoughts on boards, and in articles (PLUSA, etc). Nice to see you here.

Boris

Boris!

I am not sure that I want to be a member of a board that you're on. It might tarnish my image...:)

Where have you been?

Kenny

Kenny Croxdale
10-20-2008, 06:13 AM
I wasn't saying that wearing a belt gives your abdominals less of a workout. I said some people will tell you that. I take everything people say with a grain of salt.

I didn't say that you said it. I simply posted information refuting those who might believe it.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
10-20-2008, 06:40 AM
Don't go by me, but I never deadlift till day of the meet. I do all the other accesorie lifts to give me the strength for the meet. My back is messed up (broke my back in 98', hurniated entire lumbar spine and 2 torn disks that almost heal but not quite) thus I save myself till day of. IE: hypers,pull-ups, bent over rows or DB rows, pull overs and grip work are my main focus to get me there. And yes I DL w/ a belt! Hope that helps..

I don't deadlift until the day of the meet, as well. I perform Good Mornings and Olympic pulls. In doing so, my deadlift went up.

The "No Deadlift, Deadlift Training Program" goes into it. You can google it. It is a revision of Bill Starr's article, "A Different Approach To The Deadlift" and Loren Betzer's "To Deadlift More, Don't Deadlift" as well as Louie Simmon's view.

It is hard for most lifters to fathom increasing their deadlift by not deadlifting. That was my feeling at one time.

I gradually weened myself off deadlifting. I went from regular deadlifts to rack deadlifts, at my sticking point. I performed Olympic pulls, too.

I dropped rack deadlifts and replaced them with Good Mornings and continued with Olympic pulls.

In working with other lifters, the emphasis is on training the deadlift without overtraining the lower back. Since most lifters have a pshychological need to deadlift, we find a deadlift program that allows them to deadlift without tearing up their lower back.

The keys to keeping the lower back fresh is infrequent deadlift training sessions, REST. Chip McCain (198 world deadlift record holder) use to talk about his back feeling "charred" (burnt out).

McCain alternated heavy and light deadlift training sessions. One week was heavy and one week was light.

In going over his light weeks with him, I didnt see a rhythm. His weight fluctuated on his light weeks.

McCain's reply was "I keep the light weeks light." McCain let the feel of the weight dictate his light week training pounage. The focus on the light week was for recovery only, pump blood into the muscles...prepare him for the heavy week.

Kenny Croxdale

smokinHawk
10-20-2008, 06:41 AM
I agree. However, the problem the lower back easily and quickly overtraining. It no wonder since the lower back is part of everything you do.

The deadlift is very taxing on the lower back. The problem many lifter have is they train the deadlift too heavy, too often.

That does not allow the lower back to recover. The lower back, any muscle group, is more prone to injury when it is tried or fatigued.

Most train the deadlift every 7 days or even longer, once every 10-14 days.

In working with two lifters (Mike Tronski and Phil Rivera), we found that deadlifting less often was better.

Mike deadlifted once every 14-21 days. Phil deadlifted once a month.

Lower back training in the week they weren't deadlifting was composed of Good Mornings and Olympic pulls.

When it comes to deadlifting remember that a little goes a long way.

Simmons' comment about the deadlift was, "Why do something that takes more than it gives back?" The inference was that the deadlift is a very taxing movement.

Kenny Croxdale

i have been deadlifting consistently every week for the past 2 years, before when i have had back problems and back pain (probably from my scoliosis) my back has been doing allot better, (the curve has also straightened out allot.)
I have put 127-147 lbs on my deadlift, I always lift heavy, no more then 5 reps, never felt better.
IMO if you dont deadlift you will hurt your back.

Kenny Croxdale
10-20-2008, 07:45 AM
i have been deadlifting consistently every week for the past 2 years, before when i have had back problems and back pain (probably from my scoliosis) my back has been doing allot better, (the curve has also straightened out allot.)
I have put 127-147 lbs on my deadlift, I always lift heavy, no more then 5 reps, never felt better.
IMO if you dont deadlift you will hurt your back.

The deadlift is not the only exercise that involves the lower back, hamstrings, glutes, etc. Good Mornings effectively work that area.

The benefit of Good Mornings is that they are less likely to "burn out" your lower back compared to heavy deadlifts.

As Simmons' noted about the deadlift, "Why do something that takes back more than it gives?" The inference is that the deadlift places a lot of stress on the body, the lower back.

"Would Healing" also addresses the frequency of deadlifting. Research (common knowledge) states that the greater the injury, the longer it takes to recover.

Due amount of stress places on the lower back, more recovery time is needed. Add in the fact is that squatting places taxes the lower back.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't train the deadlift, it just means you need to make sure you don't overtraining it.

Again, the key is to make sure you have rested it enough so that your lower back has recovered. Performing deadlifts when you lower has not recovered increases you chances of injury.

You state that you "deadlift consistently every week." Does that mean you deadlift once a week? If so, that would fall into the parameters that I stated in a previous post.

The frequence of how often you deadlift is dependent on a varitey of factors. What works for you today may not work tomorrow.

"Everything works but nothing works forever."

Kenny Croxdale

CMAND21
10-20-2008, 02:54 PM
I alway find that when I have had a really good Dead workout my hams and glutes are burning and not my low back. That pain comes the next day.
If it does not hurt a little is it worth doing?

brihead301
10-21-2008, 06:46 AM
So, does that mean you "only take 5 lb jumps" on your 1RM, max deadlift?

While being cautious is a good thing, you don't want to be overly conservative.

Let you training poundage and reps guide you in your 1RM, max, selection. Over time, we all learn what our training poundage/reps will equate to on a 1RM, max lift.

Another thing that I learned from one of the great deadlifters, Chip McCain. McCain pulled a world record in 1979 of 799 lbs at 198 lbs.

In going over McCain's deadlift training, I noticed that McCain jumped his training weight in one session BEYOND what it should have been. McCain pulled the weight with power to spare.

I ask McCain why he jumped BEYOND what he should have taken. McCain replied, "Because I knew that I could."

Great athletes, at times, know what they can do. We all, to some extent, have this quality.

Kenny Croxdale

You do make sense man. I've been working in the 5 rep range, so I just add 5 lbs. each time I deadlift. I would say that I've been taking a conservative approach to it to avoid injury. I've been considering competing, so I may become more agressive if I do start to compete.

Kenny Croxdale
10-21-2008, 07:44 AM
I alway find that when I have had a really good Dead workout my hams and glutes are burning and not my low back. That pain comes the next day.
If it does not hurt a little is it worth doing?

As you know, you cannot solely judge the quality of pain, if it hurts. But it is a good indicator that you have sufficiently worked the muscles involved.

That does not mean that easier workout are unproductive. Each training session build on the next. You start out with an easy session, then progress to a medium, and then harder session. That is what "Periodization" is about.

Training sessions are like warm up set at a meet. Your warm up sets prepare you for you 1RM, one repetition max.

That is exactly what your training sessions are. As an example, let's say your "Periodization" program is four weeks.

Week 1 is your first warm set.
Week 2 is your second warm up set.
Week 3 is your third warm up set.
Week 4 is where you squeeze everthhing you can get out of your workout.

That means the day after Week 4 you going to feel it, you body was taxes and you know it.

Week 5 is where you start over. Week 5 is Week 1 of your new "Periodization" program. It is a light easy week. It is a recovery week.

Just because it is an easy week dosen't mean that is it unproductive. It allows restoration to take place.

Kenny Croxdale