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KarstenDD
11-13-2008, 09:54 PM
You know the answer.

Ok seriously this thread is way off course. If somebody wants to start a thread about genetics go for it

There, no more thread hijacking.

Invain, I want you to give me examples of people who have reached the very top of their sport and put genetics above hard work as to how they got there.

Invain
11-13-2008, 10:06 PM
Give me an example of a post where I stated genetics trumps hard work and a good diet. You're taking what I said out of context, very clever. Like I said, genetics isn't the major factor, but you can't deny it does play a role.

KarstenDD
11-13-2008, 10:53 PM
Give me an example of a post where I stated genetics trumps hard work and a good diet. You're taking what I said out of context, very clever. Like I said, genetics isn't the major factor, but you can't deny it does play a role.

Well obviously I can't. However, if you work hard enough, then you can overcome genetics.

I have tired of this talk of genetics.

Dingus
11-14-2008, 12:42 AM
I have awesome genetics. My no butt was built to squat.

Hazerboy
11-14-2008, 02:13 AM
Why talk about something no one knows anything about?
For genetic predisposition, All you can do is state anecdotal evidence, i.e. "I knew this guy who never worked very hard and made it to the top" or "I knew this guy who had a bum leg and was too short but still made it to the top." besides the fact that this shows its possible to overcome the odds with hard work, this is meaningless. We'll never know if it was possible for this guy, or that guy, or me or you to work hard and overcome their "bad" genetics. Heck, if you REALLY wanted to, you could make the argument that some people are even genetically predisposed to working hard or having a good mindset, so even those with crappy bodies may have a great genetically predisposed mind to work hard. I personally don't know much about biology, but I'm sure there's SOME research out there supporting this (hell, time magazine ran an article on a genetic link to spirituality--why not work ethic?)

Yes, there is some genetic limit to everyone's ability to benchpress, run, deadlift, play football etc. In some sports we're already starting to see it--100m dash times can only go down so far. The point is, I don't know my limit, so I need to stop making excuses and just work harder. Don't make assumptions about something you don't know. The converse of this is, and what I think a lot of other people are missing, is others shouldn't make claims about your genetic limit either--don't tell me that I can work my ass off and become a pro football player or a track star or squat 1200 lbs. I think its awesome that this guy or that guy overcame some genetic predisposition to do something great, but you can't apply the same thing to me or everyone else. You'd be making an assumption about my genetic limit, something you don't know either.

so its best just not to bring it up, for those making the excuses ("I can't! I have bad genetics!") and those criticizing the excuse makers("ARRGH! I overcame bad genetics so you need to stop being such a pussy!").

whatever. This is really just me procrastinating... I have marx paper I need to finish writing O__o

Darracq
11-14-2008, 08:25 AM
[QUOTE=KarstenDD;2036476]Well obviously I can't. However, if you work hard enough, then you can overcome genetics.

I dont believe this is true in all cases. I guess it also depends on what you consider overcome genetics, If you mean put 100 pounds on your lifts then yes i thing just about anyone can do that, if you mean put 300 lbs on your lifts then its not going to happen for a lot of people no matter how hard they work.

WillNoble
11-14-2008, 08:26 AM
Why talk about something no one knows anything about?
For genetic predisposition, All you can do is state anecdotal evidence, i.e. "I knew this guy who never worked very hard and made it to the top" or "I knew this guy who had a bum leg and was too short but still made it to the top." besides the fact that this shows its possible to overcome the odds with hard work, this is meaningless. We'll never know if it was possible for this guy, or that guy, or me or you to work hard and overcome their "bad" genetics. Heck, if you REALLY wanted to, you could make the argument that some people are even genetically predisposed to working hard or having a good mindset, so even those with crappy bodies may have a great genetically predisposed mind to work hard. I personally don't know much about biology, but I'm sure there's SOME research out there supporting this (hell, time magazine ran an article on a genetic link to spirituality--why not work ethic?)

Yes, there is some genetic limit to everyone's ability to benchpress, run, deadlift, play football etc. In some sports we're already starting to see it--100m dash times can only go down so far. The point is, I don't know my limit, so I need to stop making excuses and just work harder. Don't make assumptions about something you don't know. The converse of this is, and what I think a lot of other people are missing, is others shouldn't make claims about your genetic limit either--don't tell me that I can work my ass off and become a pro football player or a track star or squat 1200 lbs. I think its awesome that this guy or that guy overcame some genetic predisposition to do something great, but you can't apply the same thing to me or everyone else. You'd be making an assumption about my genetic limit, something you don't know either.

so its best just not to bring it up, for those making the excuses ("I can't! I have bad genetics!") and those criticizing the excuse makers("ARRGH! I overcame bad genetics so you need to stop being such a pussy!").

whatever. This is really just me procrastinating... I have marx paper I need to finish writing O__o

epic post is epic

Reko
11-14-2008, 08:29 AM
Yes, there is some genetic limit to everyone's ability to benchpress, run, deadlift, play football etc. In some sports we're already starting to see it--100m dash times can only go down so far.

I disagree, there was a time when people said a 4 minute mile would NEVER happen, or a 400lb or 500lb c&j would NEVER happen. All it takes is one person to prove that wrong then once people realize that it is possible, it gives them something to work for again. Is the first person to do it more genetically gifted than the rest? Possibly. But the argument Rhodes and others have taken to is that you shouldn't let genetics LIMIT you. He also stated in the other thread where this all started that the TRUE greats at their game got to the top becuase they did everything humanly possible to get there. Did they have a good genetic makeup to help them excel at their sport? Sure, but they still woudln't have gotten there on genetics alone, and many many many athletes have made it to the pro level and have done magnificent things in sports who could have other wise not belonged due to imperfect genetics.

But to the rest of your post saying no one knows what our genetics are, i do agree with that. Even more evidence you can dismiss them as why someone isn't succeeding. Maybe you are genetically weak but have genetically good response to lifting, or you have genetically good limbs, or you have genetically good muscle fibers, or a million other things. You can always work harder.

Invain
11-14-2008, 10:02 AM
I disagree, there was a time when people said a 4 minute mile would NEVER happen, or a 400lb or 500lb c&j would NEVER happen. All it takes is one person to prove that wrong then once people realize that it is possible, it gives them something to work for again. Is the first person to do it more genetically gifted than the rest? Possibly. But the argument Rhodes and others have taken to is that you shouldn't let genetics LIMIT you. He also stated in the other thread where this all started that the TRUE greats at their game got to the top becuase they did everything humanly possible to get there. Did they have a good genetic makeup to help them excel at their sport? Sure, but they still woudln't have gotten there on genetics alone, and many many many athletes have made it to the pro level and have done magnificent things in sports who could have other wise not belonged due to imperfect genetics.

But to the rest of your post saying no one knows what our genetics are, i do agree with that. Even more evidence you can dismiss them as why someone isn't succeeding. Maybe you are genetically weak but have genetically good response to lifting, or you have genetically good limbs, or you have genetically good muscle fibers, or a million other things. You can always work harder.

This is all true, I don't disagree with you Reko. However, this wasn't the argument Rhodes and others were making. My only point was genetic advantages exist, and I mentioned something about Rhodes probably having at least above average genetics. He in turn said genetics is only an excuse and doesn't matter at all, which is simply not true.

Reko
11-14-2008, 10:08 AM
This is all true, I don't disagree with you Reko. However, this wasn't the argument Rhodes and others were making. My only point was genetic advantages exist, and I mentioned something about Rhodes probably having at least above average genetics. He in turn said genetics is only an excuse and doesn't matter at all, which is simply not true.

Maybe it's interpretation then. My only point (and how I understood his post) was that while genetic advantages do exits, it is not the end all be all by any way shape or form.

WillNoble
11-14-2008, 10:09 AM
Maybe it's interpretation then. My only point (and how I understood his post) was that while genetic advantages do exits, it is not the end all be all by any way shape or form.

nor are they the limitations for anyone on this board

evnp85
11-14-2008, 10:11 AM
Well obviously I can't. However, if you work hard enough, then you can overcome genetics.

I have tired of this talk of genetics.

Wow, just wow.

Take a look, for example, at professional baseball player. Why is it that there are guys who never make it to the major league yet they dedicate their lives to it? You can't overcome someone who is genetically more gifted than you if you are both giving your maximum effort.

Some people should do some light reading on evolution.

Reko
11-14-2008, 10:15 AM
Wow, just wow.

Take a look, for example, at professional baseball player. Why is it that there are guys who never make it to the major league yet they dedicate their lives to it? You can't overcome someone who is genetically more gifted than you if you are both giving your maximum effort.

Some people should do some light reading on evolution.

There are some mighty large assumptions in that post.

Some people should do some light reading on training.

evnp85
11-14-2008, 10:16 AM
There are some mighty large assumptions in that post.

Some people should do some light reading on training.

You are INCREDIBLY dense. INCREDIBLY. You don't believe there is a single athlete that hasn't reached professional status that has trained just as hard as an elite athlete?

Look at a sport where the kids are 8 years old. 99% of them have never trained in their lives but there is always one that stands out. Thats genetics.

Or better yet, read up on how disease has wiped out entire populations of people but there are always some that survive because of a genetic mutation.

Reko
11-14-2008, 10:26 AM
You are INCREDIBLY dense. INCREDIBLY.

Not really. Do they dedicate their lives to their baseball careers? Do they go out to bars after the games with other players on the team or do they go back and train some more, watch film, etc?

Waht type of pitchers are the minor league batters facing? 85 MPH fastballs? Maybe 90? What happens when they get a change to hit off a pro or former pro pitcher? 95-100 MPH fastballs, bigger change ups, bigger curves. A rookie has far less experience than a vertan, who more than likely honed his skills WHILE HE WAS IN THE MAJORS. A few get in, some stay, some don't, some are average and a few go on to become great.
Did Barry bonds hit 70 or 80 home runs his rookie year? How about Sosa? McGuire? how many no hitters did nolan Ryan throw in his rookie year? They got better as they got older and had more experience because they continued to work hard on and off the field once they made it. Some will get overlooked no doubt, and some will get there because of genetics (did you read Rhode's post about the NU football player as an example?). Hard work will determine who stays and who becomes great.
Did Michael Jordan get by on his genetics? Or did he get by on his hours and hoursof practice each day? Was he a super star the whole time? Or did he have some not so good years before he became one of the greats (not talking just pro here either, college, highschool if you want).



Since you edited your post, here is my response to the rest of it.
8 year olds... I know ZERO and have heard of ZERO and have read of ZERO 8 year old ELITE athletes. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about, and you know it (that or you are the INCREDIBLY dense one).

And genetic mutation has NOTHING to do with this. I'm not growing extra fingers to increase my deadlift grip, I'm not growing an extra thigh bone to get taller so I can dunk on Yao. We're talking about makign the best with what you have. Plain and simple. I've got a matches for any more strawmen you'd care to set up.

Reko
11-14-2008, 10:33 AM
Also, training has just as much of being a factor in 8 year olds as it does in anywhere else.

Kid has been playing/trainign for 1 year.
Better kid has been playing/training for 2 years. The kid with 2 years experience probably will be better as he has been trianing twice as long. Or there could be the kid who is only there becasue his parents want to and he doesn't really care. OR the kid could be a fanatic and practice all day and all night after he gets home from school in his basement or something. OR the kid just could have al lthe determination in the world, but have no coachign and have no idea how to pracitce so he is doing it wrong. None of those have anything to do with genetics unless you want to split hairs and say crap like "the work ethic comes from his genes, therefor its genetics".

Give me a break.

evnp85
11-14-2008, 10:34 AM
Do have some sort of documentation or something that shows that every human body is genetically exactly muscularly the same?

Some people are bigger, some are shorter. These are very simple difference that are static throughout every human body. Obviously it is possible for person A to genetically have better performing muscles or something very similar.

evnp85
11-14-2008, 10:36 AM
Also, training has just as much of being a factor in 8 year olds as it does in anywhere else.

Kid has been playing/trainign for 1 year.
Better kid has been playing/training for 2 years. The kid with 2 years experience probably will be better as he has been trianing twice as long. Or there could be the kid who is only there becasue his parents want to and he doesn't really care. OR the kid could be a fanatic and practice all day and all night after he gets home from school in his basement or something. OR the kid just could have al lthe determination in the world, but have no coachign and have no idea how to pracitce so he is doing it wrong. None of those have anything to do with genetics unless you want to split hairs and say crap like "the work ethic comes from his genes, therefor its genetics".

Give me a break.

If we took 2 seperate newborn people and they were both raised in the exact same environment but were not allowed to train at whatever sport they would later compete in when they turned 10 years old, do you think that they would perform exactly the same?

One would come out on top regardless of no prior training because his body's genetics are superior at whatever it is they are competing in.

Reko
11-14-2008, 10:37 AM
Do have some sort of documentation or something that shows that every human body is genetically exactly muscularly the same?

Some people are bigger, some are shorter. These are very simple difference that are static throughout every human body. Obviously it is possible for person A to genetically have better performing muscles or something very similar.

You and that other guy need to read my posts.
I NEVER said we were all the same.
I NEVER said people were born the same size and strength.
I DID say some people will do better becuase of genetics.

Numberous times.

I also DID say (and this is my ENTIRE POINT), JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE HAS 'INFERIOR' GENETICS COMPARED TO SOMEONE ELSE, DO NOT MEAN THEY CANNOT EXCEL AT THEIR SPORT OF CHOICE, GIVEN THEY ARE WILLING TO MAKE SACRIFICES AND COMPLETELY DEDICATE THEMSELVES TO THAT CAUSE.

There you go dense man.

Reko
11-14-2008, 10:38 AM
One would come out on top regardless of no prior training because his body's genetics are superior at whatever it is they are competing in.

READ. MY. POSTS.

evnp85
11-14-2008, 10:39 AM
You and that other guy need to read my posts.
I NEVER said we were all the same.
I NEVER said people were born the same size and strength.
I DID say some people will do better becuase of genetics.

Numberous times.

I also DID say (and this is my ENTIRE POINT), JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE HAS 'INFERIOR' GENETICS COMPARED TO SOMEONE ELSE, DO NOT MEAN THEY CANNOT EXCEL AT THEIR SPORT OF CHOICE, GIVEN THEY ARE WILLING TO MAKE SACRIFICES AND COMPLETELY DEDICATE THEMSELVES TO THAT CAUSE.

There you go dense man.

I would say that is a good way to set people up for failure. Of course inferior genetics will always be a limiting factor no matter how hard you train. If somebody is clearly uncoordinated I'm not going to suggest that they dedicate hours a day to chase a dream that will never happen.

Reko
11-14-2008, 10:40 AM
I would say that is a good way to set people up for failure. Of course inferior genetics will always be a limiting factor no matter how hard you train.

They will be a limiting factor when you have done EVERYTHING else possible.


EVERYTHING.
Good genetics or otherwise.

WillNoble
11-14-2008, 10:42 AM
They will be a limiting factor when you have done EVERYTHING else possible.





READ, evnp85, READ

evnp85
11-14-2008, 10:43 AM
Yes, I never argued that. I was stating that certain people will have a higher ceiling because of genetics.