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brihead301
11-18-2008, 07:35 AM
I don't mean to p*ss anyone off by asking this question, but I really don't understand.

What is the point of squat and deadlift suits and bench shirts?

I know they allow you to lift more weight, but isn't that defeating the purpose of getting your body strong?

Like, if you are capable of squatting 600 lbs. raw (which is pretty damn good), and you are capable of squatting 750 raw with the suit on..... It seems as if the suit is taking place of what your stabilizer muscles should be doing.

I'm pretty new to all this stuff, so forgive me if this has been discussed a million times before. I did a few searches on this subject on this forum, but didn't really find anything.

I was just wondering. Depending on how serious I get with PLing, I may get into the gear one day. For now, I still have lots of raw strength to be built.

Reko
11-18-2008, 07:52 AM
They let you lift more weight and are legal.

And can prevent injury to a degree depending on how jacked your gear is or how you use it I would imagine.

Reko
11-18-2008, 07:56 AM
Also, they don't take the stabilizers out of it, in fact if anything they make them work even harder. The fact the gear compresses you so much and also that it streteches (a little) and acts like a spring help, but in every lift, regardless of gear, you still have to lock it out and learn it. There isn't much that will help with that.

I think I got 0 pounds out of most of the gear I wore the first several times. Hell I hit a PR squat with briefs and suit bottoms and then PRs the next week without the suit bottoms. It takes lots of time to learn the gear, especially if its tight. You have to have very good form and have a very strong body to handle the extra weight you will be doing.

deeder
11-18-2008, 08:09 AM
I don't understand the point of cleats in football... Doesn't that defeat the purpose of training to move quickly? Doesn't it just allow you to artificially turn faster and stuff?

I don't understand the point of skates in hockey... Don't they just make you move faster on ice?

I don't understand the point of swim caps and suits in speed swimming... Doesn't it defeat the purpose of training to go fast when you can just put on a swim cap and a jacked up suit that will make you swim faster?

Understand now?


Every sport has its equipment. Not all pick up games of hockey have shoulder pads and shin guards but it's never referred to as RAW hockey. If powerlifting were a mainstream sport you wouldn't question the equipment at all, just like you don't for any other sport. The only reason it ever comes up is because ever guy who has ever stepped in to a gym thinks he could do what we do if he had a squat suit and bench shirt too.

MattBag
11-18-2008, 08:15 AM
I never thought of it like that at. Yet the concept of equipment helping strength it a little different than other sports equipment.

Brad08
11-18-2008, 08:17 AM
and here we go...

MattBag
11-18-2008, 08:20 AM
This isn't about comparing the equipment. I'm saying unless you use them you wont know what they can really do for you. I have zero knoweldge on any weightlifting suits or shirts so I cant say at all what hey can do. but like deeder said all athleats use equipment and that really made alot of sense to me.

Sensei
11-18-2008, 08:22 AM
One the hundred existing threads on this subject should be put in the stickies (if it isn't already)...

brihead301
11-18-2008, 08:25 AM
I think it's probably something that I will never understand until I'm actually at the point where I need to use a suit. I guess I just have to feel it to really understand.

Those are some good analogies Deeder. I understand what you're saying, but again like I said, I will never truly understand what it is like to have 1000 lbs. on my back even with a suit on until I actually get there for myself.

Im just confused because PLing is a sport that is purely about how strong your body is. If a suit allows your body to add 200 more lbs. to a lift, well.... it's more then just your body doing that lift. Again, I'm sure I just have to one day see for myself to truly understand.

I have a feeling that some guys are gonna be getting p***ed off at this question as if I'm questioning thier strength and saying that "it's just the suit". That's not the case at all though. It's just out of pure curiousity about peoples' opinions about this. That's all.

Sensei
11-18-2008, 08:29 AM
In athletics, it's NEVER "purely about how strong [fast, graceful, etc] your body is"... never.

drew
11-18-2008, 08:35 AM
It's not a requitrement to use the gear, you can lift without it, and you can compete without it. THere are many great lifters who have opted not to use any gear, and that's fine for them. Really, it makes lifting less complicated, and it makes meets way less complicated. It's a choice for everyone in the sport.

That said, if something can help you lift more, and it's legal in nearly every fed, why wouldn't you use it? You have to still learn the gear, work in it, and perform. It doesn't make it easier, if anything it makes it harder. And it does make you stronger. What do you think will make you a stronger squatter, putting 500 on your back with no gear, or putting 700 on your back with gear that you know how to use? I guarantee that you will get stronger squatting 700 than you will with 500, no matter what kind of supportive equipment you wear.

brihead301
11-18-2008, 08:38 AM
Right now, I'm all about lifting 100% raw. I haven't entered a competition yet. I want to wait until I hit at least a 405 lb. deadlift, a 315 lb. squat, and a 265 bench before I enter one. I will do raw competitions when I start. I have a feeling that once I do my first competition I will be a lot more into it then I am now (that's what everyone says happens). Once, I'm REALLY into it, then I'm sure this will all start to make more sense to me. I'll be much more into the competitiveness and hitting new numbers.

drew
11-18-2008, 08:41 AM
Why wait to hit certain numbers before competing? The sooner you start competing the faster you'll start learning how to get stronger.

brihead301
11-18-2008, 08:41 AM
I hear ya Drew. You will definately get stronger squatting with 700 on your back then 500. I don't even really know what gear feels like.

Raw lifting just interests me more for right now.

Reko
11-18-2008, 08:42 AM
I never thought of it like that at. Yet the concept of equipment helping strength it a little different than other sports equipment.

No its not. Its about helping your skill in the respective sport. Our sport involves strength. Sprinters wear spikes to get a better grip and go faster, etc.

Invain
11-18-2008, 08:42 AM
Don't wanna get into this argument because we all know where this'll go, but I gotta say, Deeder mose of those are very poor examples. Cleats in football? Almost every sport which involves you running on grass uses cleats, it's rediculous not to. What would an NFL football game on a rainy day look like if nobody wore cleats? Skates in hockey? Isn't that the whole point? Kinda hard to skate without skates.

What's the point in powerlifting? Moving weight with your strength/muscle. To me it seems like gear defeats the whole purpose. Gear also isn't required in powerlifting and there's different ply, as you know. Somebody using a bench shirt or squat suit has a pretty rediculous advantage over another guy lifting raw.


I don't understand the point of cleats in football... Doesn't that defeat the purpose of training to move quickly? Doesn't it just allow you to artificially turn faster and stuff?

I don't understand the point of skates in hockey... Don't they just make you move faster on ice?

I don't understand the point of swim caps and suits in speed swimming... Doesn't it defeat the purpose of training to go fast when you can just put on a swim cap and a jacked up suit that will make you swim faster?

Understand now?


Every sport has its equipment. Not all pick up games of hockey have shoulder pads and shin guards but it's never referred to as RAW hockey. If powerlifting were a mainstream sport you wouldn't question the equipment at all, just like you don't for any other sport. The only reason it ever comes up is because ever guy who has ever stepped in to a gym thinks he could do what we do if he had a squat suit and bench shirt too.

brihead301
11-18-2008, 08:45 AM
Why wait to hit certain numbers before competing? The sooner you start competing the faster you'll start learning how to get stronger.

Well, because I just started following the Texas Method template, and with the whole VRI thing, I'm gaining pretty quickly. I have a feeling that I can hit those numbers pretty soon.

It's something about the 3 plates for squat, and 4 plates for deadlift that makes me feel like I'm ready. The 265 for bench is the least of my worries, but I've bench 245 for 1 about a year ago, so I'm pretty sure I can do 265.

Reko
11-18-2008, 08:47 AM
Don't wanna get into this argument because we all know where this'll go, but I gotta say, Deeder mose of those are very poor examples. Cleats in football? Almost every sport which involves you running on grass uses cleats, it's rediculous not to. What would an NFL football game on a rainy day look like if nobody wore cleats? Skates in hockey? Isn't that the whole point? Kinda hard to skate without skates.

What's the point in powerlifting? Moving weight with your strength/muscle. To me it seems like gear defeats the whole purpose. Gear also isn't required in powerlifting and there's different ply, as you know. Somebody using a bench shirt or squat suit has a pretty rediculous advantage over another guy lifting raw.

Ok, how about this then....

Lighter skates with sharper blade, higher technology sticks that are more durable yet have better flex, bigger and lighter pads for goalies, or a tinted face shield (hockey or football) so players can't read the eyes of the opponents? There are tons of examples you could use for various sports. What about the full body suits in swimming? Why not just go in a regular swim suit, i mean, they should be fast anyway right?

You don't have to compete in gear. There are raw meets you can do, some with knee wraps, some not. There is something for everyone in PLing. This is just the way our sport is evolving.

Brad08
11-18-2008, 08:48 AM
What's the point in powerlifting? Moving weight with your strength/muscle. To me it seems like gear defeats the whole purpose. Gear also isn't required in powerlifting and there's different ply, as you know. Somebody using a bench shirt or squat suit has a pretty rediculous advantage over another guy lifting raw.

Are shoes allowed? How about a tight t-shirt? How about Olympic weightlifters and their wooden-heel shoes?

Please, just STFU.

drew
11-18-2008, 08:51 AM
Are shoes allowed? How about a tight t-shirt? How about Olympic weightlifters and their wooden-heel shoes?

Please, just STFU.

Let's keep it respectful please. These gear debates always get out of hand.

Invain
11-18-2008, 08:53 AM
Ok, how about this then....

Lighter skates with sharper blade, higher technology sticks that are more durable yet have better flex, bigger and lighter pads for goalies, or a tinted face shield (hockey or football) so players can't read the eyes of the opponents? There are tons of examples you could use for various sports. What about the full body suits in swimming? Why not just go in a regular swim suit, i mean, they should be fast anyway right?

You don't have to compete in gear. There are raw meets you can do, some with knee wraps, some not. There is something for everyone in PLing. This is just the way our sport is evolving.

Yes, but you're forgetting, skates, pads, face shileds, swim suits, etc, are all required for their sport. Of course they're gonna make the most technologically advanced skates they can, why not.

I think the whole point of this thread is, why did gear become popular in the first place? Our sport is all about pure raw strength, or it began that way. There's really no reason to wear a suit or shirt when you think about it. The way gear is now a days it seems like technique is almost more important than pure strength. Really, what's the point in throwing on a bench shirt that'll help you squeeze out another 100 lbs when you know you can't lift that weight by yourself? Sure they're gonna make more advanced swimming suits, when he hell does anybody swim without a suit on? Do you understand my logic? I'm not really trying to bash gear, but I think a lot of people don't understand how it even got started.

Invain
11-18-2008, 08:54 AM
Are shoes allowed? How about a tight t-shirt? How about Olympic weightlifters and their wooden-heel shoes?

Please, just STFU.

Can you please grow up? All you're doing is giving powerlifting a bad image with your childish comments.

Ben Moore
11-18-2008, 09:02 AM
Invain for someone who said they weren't going to get into this discussion, you sure are talking alot...

Invain
11-18-2008, 09:07 AM
Invain for someone who said they weren't going to get into this discussion, you sure are talking alot...

When somebody quotes me and makes a few points I like to respond back. I know you and many in here don't agree with me. I'm not here to bash gear, I could care less if you use it or not. The op started this thread with a genuine curiosity, but I think some answered his questions with a little bias since they do use gear, not saying they're doing it on purpose, just what I notice.

BigTallOx
11-18-2008, 09:09 AM
Why wait to hit certain numbers before competing? The sooner you start competing the faster you'll start learning how to get stronger.

I went to my first meet 3 weeks after I started powerlifting, it was good documentation of where I was when I started. And the meet was lots of fun and eye opening as well.

Ben Moore
11-18-2008, 09:09 AM
And there is a tinge of bias in your post towards not liking gear. This subject is pointless. They have raw records and feds and they have geared records and feds. Figure out which one you want to do and do it. But don't bash one or the other if you've never set foot in that realm of competition

brihead301
11-18-2008, 09:10 AM
I think the whole point of this thread is, why did gear become popular in the first place? Our sport is all about pure raw strength, or it began that way. There's really no reason to wear a suit or shirt when you think about it. The way gear is now a days it seems like technique is almost more important than pure strength. Really, what's the point in throwing on a bench shirt that'll help you squeeze out another 100 lbs when you know you can't lift that weight by yourself? Sure they're gonna make more advanced swimming suits, when he hell does anybody swim without a suit on? Do you understand my logic? I'm not really trying to bash gear, but I think a lot of people don't understand how it even got started.

Yes, that was basically what I was asking.

Brad08
11-18-2008, 09:13 AM
Yes, but you're forgetting, skates, pads, face shileds, swim suits, etc, are all required for their sport.

Incredible. Simply incredible. None of that crap is required to do anything.


Of course they're gonna make the most technologically advanced skates they can, why not.

Are technologically advanced barbells cheating?


I think the whole point of this thread is, why did gear become popular in the first place?

Because it helps. Teh same way some brilliant rocket scientist discovered that a helmet kinda helps when playing American football.


The way gear is now a days it seems like technique is almost more important than pure strength.

do you have ANY idea how stupid that sounds?? I mean, it's hard to even fathom how to respond to this. Technique is ALWAYS IMPORTANT AND ALWAYS WILL BE. Are raw lifters using too much technique when they squat deep with a high-bar position and bounce out of the hole?? Strength and technique go hand in hand in powerlifting.

I suppose you think a true powerlifting meet, a true test of strength, would have a bunch of bare-naked guys lifting tree trunks and rocks? Anything else would be too much technique and not a true test of manly strength?

It's all about lines, and where you draw them. If you're in a sport that allows cleats, helmets, bench shirts, wraps, whatever, then you're following the rules. There is no Platonic form of "the perfect sport of powerlifting." You use the technique and equipment allowed by the rules. Plain and simple.

Reko
11-18-2008, 09:16 AM
Yes, but you're forgetting, skates, pads, face shileds, swim suits, etc, are all required for their sport. Of course they're gonna make the most technologically advanced skates they can, why not.

I think the whole point of this thread is, why did gear become popular in the first place? Our sport is all about pure raw strength, or it began that way. There's really no reason to wear a suit or shirt when you think about it. The way gear is now a days it seems like technique is almost more important than pure strength. Really, what's the point in throwing on a bench shirt that'll help you squeeze out another 100 lbs when you know you can't lift that weight by yourself? Sure they're gonna make more advanced swimming suits, when he hell does anybody swim without a suit on? Do you understand my logic? I'm not really trying to bash gear, but I think a lot of people don't understand how it even got started.


I understand your logic, and it started with bed sheets and full body wraps.

Technique is important weather you are geard or raw. You lift more weight with good technique, and you stay healthier and can lift/compete more, plain and simple.

Are face shields part of the game? No they aren't. They started without helmets. Sticks were curved and goalies were banned from dropping to their knees. The sports started adding more equipment and play excalated because injuries were less frequent. Hell goalies didn't even wear masks. That wasn't part of the game. They started wearing masks when players brought in curved sticks and started getting better equipment. They now have helmets and throat guards and have no qualms putting their face in front of a 100 MPH shot. Is that not a distinct change? Does it not drastically change the way the game is played? Sports evolve, this is how ours evolving.

Invain
11-18-2008, 09:20 AM
Incredible. Simply incredible. None of that crap is required to do anything.



Are technologically advanced barbells cheating?



Because it helps. Teh same way some brilliant rocket scientist discovered that a helmet kinda helps when playing American football.



do you have ANY idea how stupid that sounds?? I mean, it's hard to even fathom how to respond to this. Technique is ALWAYS IMPORTANT AND ALWAYS WILL BE. Are raw lifters using too much technique when they squat deep with a high-bar position and bounce out of the hole?? Strength and technique go hand in hand in powerlifting.

I suppose you think a true powerlifting meet, a true test of strength, would have a bunch of bare-naked guys lifting tree trunks and rocks? Anything else would be too much technique and not a true test of manly strength?

It's all about lines, and where you draw them. If you're in a sport that allows cleats, helmets, bench shirts, wraps, whatever, then you're following the rules. There is no Platonic form of "the perfect sport of powerlifting." You use the technique and equipment allowed by the rules. Plain and simple.

Skates aren't required to skate? Lol... Pads and shields are for safety. Bench shirts and squat suites make thinks way more dangerous because of the extreme weight.

Technologically advanced barbells. When everybody at a meet is using the same barbell why would this matter? And even so, just how much is a different barbelly really gonna help your lift.

Helmets in football? Again, safety. Would you really want to play football without a helmit?

How does technique sound stupid? How many guys completely bomb out of meets because they can't get a shirt to touch? I didn't meen lifting technique in general, I meant the technique required to use the gear. Seriusly, how often do guys miss raw lifts simply because of technique issues.

Reko
11-18-2008, 09:22 AM
Technologically advanced barbells. When everybody at a meet is using the same barbell why would this matter? And even so, just how much is a different barbelly really gonna help your lift.

Helmets in football? Again, safety. Would you really want to play football without a helmit?



Everyone in the meet can use the same shirt if they want. Just like every baseball player can use the same bat or every hockey player the same stick or skate.

And, they played football for many years with no helmets. Ever watched a rugby game?

Invain
11-18-2008, 09:26 AM
Everyone in the meet can use the same shirt if they want. Just like every baseball player can use the same bat or every hockey player the same stick or skate.

And, they played football for many years with no helmets. Ever watched a rugby game?

Yes, I've actually played rugby, it's much different than football.

My only concern is, everybody doesn't use the same equipment in pl, unlike almost every other sport. There is no set standard. Some feds allow single ply, some feds allow multi-play, some are raw. Human strength can only go so far, after a certian point you can't deny that gear technology has made a huge difference in the past few years. Look at bench/squat records compared to deadlift.

Brad08
11-18-2008, 09:29 AM
Skates aren't required to skate? Lol... Pads and shields are for safety. Bench shirts and squat suites make thinks way more dangerous because of the extreme weight.


Barbells aren't required to lift weights, they just make it easier. And the rules allow them. So you follow the rules. And if those rules allow knee wraps, you can use them too. And if the rules allow bench shirts, you can use those too. And if your sport allows metal bats instead of wooden ones, guess what? You can use those too, and we still call it baseball.


Technologically advanced barbells. When everybody at a meet is using the same barbell why would this matter? And even so, just how much is a different barbelly really gonna help your lift.

**** you're dense.


Seriusly, how often do guys miss raw lifts simply because of technique issues.

I am at a loss for words. Truly. One of the rare times it's ever happened to me. I just don't know what to say. Just, wow.

Invain
11-18-2008, 09:35 AM
Barbells aren't required to lift weights, they just make it easier. And the rules allow them. So you follow the rules. And if those rules allow knee wraps, you can use them too. And if the rules allow bench shirts, you can use those too. And if your sport allows metal bats instead of wooden ones, guess what? You can use those too, and we still call it baseball.



**** you're dense.



I am at a loss for words. Truly. One of the rare times it's ever happened to me. I just don't know what to say. Just, wow.

Why are you at a loss for words? It's the truth, and many people have brought that point up before.

Of course most people competing will use whatever the rules allow. People in the sport are also the ones making the rules. That doesn't meen everybody agrees with the rules. What do you think the general publics view on powerlifting is? Why isn't the sport taken more seriously outside of people that actually compete?

Lets just agree to disagree when it comes to gear. There's no point in calling me dense, it's actually quite ironic.

BigTallOx
11-18-2008, 09:45 AM
Honestly, I don't see why this debate always turns to hostility. If you want to lift raw, find a federation with a raw division and lift raw. If you want to lift equipped, lift equipped. Lifting raw and equipped are both equally powerlifting, and IMHO neither side should be saying their view is better than the other.

Reko
11-18-2008, 09:50 AM
Why are you at a loss for words? It's the truth, and many people have brought that point up before.

Of course most people competing will use whatever the rules allow. People in the sport are also the ones making the rules. That doesn't meen everybody agrees with the rules. What do you think the general publics view on powerlifting is? Why isn't the sport taken more seriously outside of people that actually compete?

Lets just agree to disagree when it comes to gear. There's no point in calling me dense, it's actually quite ironic.


The people in the sport have made feds that don't allow gear if thats what you want. It's an option to compete in it if that is your thing. They have the option to wear the same shirt and wraps if they want. Some people work better with certain gear than others, depending on their strengths and weakness and groves, which is very individualistic, like a stiff stick or a flexible stick in hockey.

So, if you are anti gear or hesitant about it, you can compete in a raw fed. If you like it and want to use it, or even just want to use a shirt only and squat raw or DL raw you can compete in a geared fed (and I have done somethign like that before). If I insist on using a wodden bat when the other players are using aluminum, no one will stop me, but I will be at a disadvantage at my discretion.

As far as the deadlift goes, that is just how it is. Gear doesn't help the DL as much as it does a squat or bench. No claim was made that it doesn't increase your lifts, so I don't really know what that comment was supposed to mean. If it decreased your lift less than your raw lift, no one would use it.

Invain
11-18-2008, 09:53 AM
Honestly, I don't see why this debate always turns to hostility. If you want to lift raw, find a federation with a raw division and lift raw. If you want to lift equipped, lift equipped. Lifting raw and equipped are both equally powerlifting, and IMHO neither side should be saying their view is better than the other.

It shouldn't have to turn into hostility, however this seems impossible for some.

As for lifting raw, there's way more equipped feds than raw. For somebody not willing/can't afford to travel to other states for meets it's actually pretty difficult finding a raw meet.

Reko
11-18-2008, 09:54 AM
It shouldn't have to turn into hostility, however this seems impossible for some.

As for lifting raw, there's way more equipped feds than raw. For somebody not willing/can't afford to travel to other states for meets it's actually pretty difficult finding a raw meet.

If that's the case its more popular then as its drawing more lifters, hence the increased demand for it. You can always do unsanctioned meets or run your own.

Travis Bell
11-18-2008, 09:59 AM
Invain, have you ever competed? Thats a serious question, not meant to be an insult.

Invain
11-18-2008, 10:02 AM
Yes I have. I plan on lifting in an APF meet in Janurary as well.

Brad08
11-18-2008, 10:04 AM
Why are you at a loss for words? It's the truth, and many people have brought that point up before.

Raw lifter misses a squat.

Weight too far forward on foot. Technique?

Lower back loses arch. Technique?

Upper back crumples. Technique?

Lifter falls forward. Technique?

Knee caves in. Technique?

Lifter's torso twists and right hip comes forward. Technique?

Lifter gets pinned to the floor. Technique?

Lifter can't get past sticking point. Technique?

....

You complaining that "technique is almost more important than pure strength" in geared powerlifting, and somehow it isn't in raw lifting, is just mindboggling.


What do you think the general publics view on powerlifting is?

I didn't know the general public had reached a view on powerlifting.


Why isn't the sport taken more seriously outside of people that actually compete?

Raw powerlifting still exists. Is it more popular or taken more seriously? Was powerlifting magically popular before gear was invented? I don't know, but I just saw Scott Mendelsonn in a Harley Davidson commercial, benching a motorcyle in an open-backed shirt, broadcast during a widely-watched television program. Popularity has to do with a gazillion things. Olympic lifting doesn't use any gear and it isn't popular at all in the U.S. There are a gazillion factors influencing the American public and advertising revenue. To reduce it to some silly bifurcated "gear or no gear" analysis based on your bias and (limited) intellect is beyond inept.


There's no point in calling me dense, it's actually quite ironic.

No, it's not at all. It's actually insanely poignant given the continuous gems falling from your mouth on the sport of powerlifting and it's state in American culture.

BigTallOx
11-18-2008, 10:05 AM
As for lifting raw, there's way more equipped feds than raw. For somebody not willing/can't afford to travel to other states for meets it's actually pretty difficult finding a raw meet.

Well, depending on your reason for competition, you could lift raw in an equipped division. If that was my only option, I'd do it, since the only person I'm competing against is myself. But that's just me, and I understand everybody else may have different reasons for competing.

Invain
11-18-2008, 10:11 AM
You complaining that "technique is almost more important than pure strength" in geared powerlifting, and somehow it isn't in raw lifting, is just mindboggling.



I'm not complaining? I stated the obvious. You know exactly what I meant and you're twisting everything to side-step the issue. Not hitting your groove with a shirt on is different than missing a raw bench. Most people miss raw lifts because it's simply too heavy. I'd say it's pretty rare for a raw lifter to bomb all 3 attempts.

Invain
11-18-2008, 10:11 AM
Well, depending on your reason for competition, you could lift raw in an equipped division. If that was my only option, I'd do it, since the only person I'm competing against is myself. But that's just me, and I understand everybody else may have different reasons for competing.

I have.

BigTallOx
11-18-2008, 10:14 AM
You complaining that "technique is almost more important than pure strength" in geared powerlifting, and somehow it isn't in raw lifting, is just mindboggling.


I've got to agree with that. The first time I benched with my powerlifting buddies, my bench ( raw ) was up 20 pounds just because the techniques they taught me.

Technique is very important lifting both raw and equipped. I haven't done much lifting with gear, but from my understanding gear can prevent injuries, and thus it seems to me that technique may be more important when lifting raw because technique is the only thing keeping you from getting hurt.

drew
11-18-2008, 10:18 AM
It shouldn't have to turn into hostility, however this seems impossible for some.

As for lifting raw, there's way more equipped feds than raw. For somebody not willing/can't afford to travel to other states for meets it's actually pretty difficult finding a raw meet.

A lot of the feds have a raw division now. It's getting to be popular.

deeder
11-18-2008, 10:27 AM
I feel a lot safer with heavy weights in my equipment. My hips don't ache, my knees don't feel like they will cave in and my shoulders are kept nice and tight.

Despite the weight that I get out my gear there is still a huge safety factor for me. IMO the injuries that occur in full gear are generally caused by a combination of bad dumps and poor spotting. I have thrown 350lbs straight towards my face in my bench shirt but the spotters caught it and I wasn't hurt. I've never finished (or missed) a bench in my shirt that made my shoulder hurt. I have however benched near raw maxes that made my pec insertion hurt for weeks.

If you're going to tear your quad/hamstring/pec/bicep or whatever, it would probably still happen without the equipment. In fact, I'd be inclined to say it would be more likely because you don't have anything keeping you tight throughout the lift.

Ben Moore
11-18-2008, 10:27 AM
You can lift raw at any meet you go to. They don't require the use of gear...


It shouldn't have to turn into hostility, however this seems impossible for some.

As for lifting raw, there's way more equipped feds than raw. For somebody not willing/can't afford to travel to other states for meets it's actually pretty difficult finding a raw meet.

deeder
11-18-2008, 10:29 AM
You can lift raw at any meet you go to. They don't require the use of gear...

Exactly. I did my first 4 meets using knee wraps and a belt. The 4th one was CPU Nationals 2007 and I placed 2nd in the Junior 75kg weight class.

Travis Bell
11-18-2008, 10:32 AM
I have.

then whats the problem?

I fail to see what your point is in posting here besides bashing gear.

You have meets to lift in, you've lifted raw, nobody stuck a gun in your face and made you put on a shirt, so whats the problem?

Some of us lift in gear, some of us do both in gear and out of gear.

To me the excuse that you don't like gear because its very technical is a lazy excuse for poor form. Benching in a shirt has made me a better raw lifter. Some of the best raw lifters also lift in gear. Rob Wilkerson (KingKong) and Ryan Celli are two good examples and whats funny to me is that you don't hear the guys at the top of EITHER group complaining about the other.

Brad08
11-18-2008, 10:38 AM
Most people miss raw lifts because it's simply too heavy.

OK, let's try your benching example:

Raw bencher misses lift.

Gets pinned. Too heavy?

Elbows flare too early. Too heavy?

Can't break sticking point. Too heavy?

Brings bar too low on chest. Too heavy?

Uneven bar path. Too heavy?

Uneven arm extension. Too heavy?

Ass lifts off bench. Too heavy?

Uncontrolled descent. Too heavy?

Loses upper back tightness. Too heavy?

KarstenDD
11-18-2008, 10:39 AM
Gear debates = useless

Ben Moore
11-18-2008, 10:41 AM
Gear debates = useless

Exactly - someone should post some titties in here.

Reko
11-18-2008, 10:42 AM
whats funny to me is that you don't hear the guys at the top of EITHER group complaining about the other.

Good point Mr. Travis.

Invain
11-18-2008, 10:42 AM
then whats the problem?

I fail to see what your point is in posting here besides bashing gear.

You have meets to lift in, you've lifted raw, nobody stuck a gun in your face and made you put on a shirt, so whats the problem?

Some of us lift in gear, some of us do both in gear and out of gear.

To me the excuse that you don't like gear because its very technical is a lazy excuse for poor form. Benching in a shirt has made me a better raw lifter. Some of the best raw lifters also lift in gear. Rob Wilkerson (KingKong) and Ryan Celli are two good examples and whats funny to me is that you don't hear the guys at the top of EITHER group complaining about the other.

Travis did you forget why this thread was started in the first place?

I also never said I dislike gear because it's technical.

Like I said, I'm not trying to hate on gear. Re-read some of my original posts.




I think the whole point of this thread is, why did gear become popular in the first place? Our sport is all about pure raw strength, or it began that way. There's really no reason to wear a suit or shirt when you think about it. The way gear is now a days it seems like technique is almost more important than pure strength. Really, what's the point in throwing on a bench shirt that'll help you squeeze out another 100 lbs when you know you can't lift that weight by yourself? Sure they're gonna make more advanced swimming suits, when he hell does anybody swim without a suit on? Do you understand my logic? I'm not really trying to bash gear, but I think a lot of people don't understand how it even got started.

Reko
11-18-2008, 10:43 AM
Exactly - someone should post some titties in here.


Good point Mr. Ben.

Brad08
11-18-2008, 10:44 AM
Re-read some of my original posts.

No! I can't! My sides already hurt from all the LoL's.

Reko
11-18-2008, 10:45 AM
I think the whole point of this thread is, why did gear become popular in the first place? Our sport is all about pure raw strength, or it began that way. There's really no reason to wear a suit or shirt when you think about it. The way gear is now a days it seems like technique is almost more important than pure strength. Really, what's the point in throwing on a bench shirt that'll help you squeeze out another 100 lbs when you know you can't lift that weight by yourself? Sure they're gonna make more advanced swimming suits, when he hell does anybody swim without a suit on? Do you understand my logic? I'm not really trying to bash gear, but I think a lot of people don't understand how it even got started.




Like I said, I'm not trying to hate on gear. Re-read some of my original posts.

seems like it to me.

Ben Moore
11-18-2008, 10:46 AM
Travis did you forget why this thread was started in the first place?

I also never said I dislike gear because it's technical.

Like I said, I'm not trying to hate on gear. Re-read some of my original posts.

Ahh, what about this jewel?


Don't wanna get into this argument because we all know where this'll go, but I gotta say, Deeder mose of those are very poor examples. Cleats in football? Almost every sport which involves you running on grass uses cleats, it's rediculous not to. What would an NFL football game on a rainy day look like if nobody wore cleats? Skates in hockey? Isn't that the whole point? Kinda hard to skate without skates.

What's the point in powerlifting? Moving weight with your strength/muscle. To me it seems like gear defeats the whole purpose. Gear also isn't required in powerlifting and there's different ply, as you know. Somebody using a bench shirt or squat suit has a pretty rediculous advantage over another guy lifting raw.

Invain
11-18-2008, 10:51 AM
seems like it to me.

Simply my opinions. Yes, some of that could have been worded better to stress that these are only my thoughts.

Travis Bell
11-18-2008, 10:53 AM
What's the point in powerlifting? Moving weight with your strength/muscle. To me it seems like gear defeats the whole purpose. Gear also isn't required in powerlifting and there's different ply, as you know. Somebody using a bench shirt or squat suit has a pretty rediculous advantage over another guy lifting raw.


Yes, but you're forgetting, skates, pads, face shileds, swim suits, etc, are all required for their sport. Of course they're gonna make the most technologically advanced skates they can, why not.

I think the whole point of this thread is, why did gear become popular in the first place? Our sport is all about pure raw strength, or it began that way. There's really no reason to wear a suit or shirt when you think about it. The way gear is now a days it seems like technique is almost more important than pure strength. Really, what's the point in throwing on a bench shirt that'll help you squeeze out another 100 lbs when you know you can't lift that weight by yourself? Sure they're gonna make more advanced swimming suits, when he hell does anybody swim without a suit on? Do you understand my logic? I'm not really trying to bash gear, but I think a lot of people don't understand how it even got started.

hahaha C'mon Invain you're contradicting yourself now. You really don't like gear at all and you clearly said how lifting is more technical than physical in your opinion, implying that was a negative thing

Also, what meet did you compete in? Have you ever worn a bench shirt?

I freaking hated shirts when I got into powerlifting. But I wanted to be the best lifter I could be so I spent around 2 years just trying to figure them out. Wasn't easy but it worked. Now I'm pretty good at both

AdamBAG
11-18-2008, 10:54 AM
Sweet!!! A gear bashing thread!!!

:boring:

Chubrock
11-18-2008, 10:58 AM
There's only one way to squat. Double ply, 2" high and 1 red light.

Reko
11-18-2008, 10:59 AM
There's only one way to squat. Double ply, 2" high and 1 red light.

Lol, cuz 3 whites means you went too deep!

Invain
11-18-2008, 11:00 AM
I said "it seems like". Really Travis, why has the IPF made statements before wanting to limit bench shirts. You know what I meen when I say "technique".

I've only lifted in a couple unsanctioned local meets, including one here at school which our pl team put on. No I've never worn a shirt, I've never had access to one.

brihead301
11-18-2008, 11:01 AM
Titties would be neat.

Reko
11-18-2008, 11:03 AM
Titties would be neat.

Sine you are the OP and you accepted the thread jack, I'll deliver when I get home.

If this is still open that is. I'll try to keep it SFW.

Brad08
11-18-2008, 11:05 AM
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t252/jdhiiixc/good/titties-2.gif

brihead301
11-18-2008, 11:06 AM
Nicely done Brad!

Travis Bell
11-18-2008, 11:12 AM
I said "it seems like". Really Travis, why has the IPF made statements before wanting to limit bench shirts.

Man, the IPF is a bad example. They talk about it a lot, but notice how they never actually do make any limits on the shirts? Every new single ply shirt that came out has been certified. When they do talk about it though, it puts them in a better bargaining position with the gear manufacturers. The manufacturers will be willing to pay more if they feel that its possible their shirt might not get certified.

Anymore, there really isn't a difference between single and double ply anyways thanks to the lamaninates.


I've only lifted in a couple unsanctioned local meets, including one here at school which our pl team put on.

My only point is that it might be good to reserve such strong judgement until you've broadened your experience level a bit more.


No I've never worn a shirt, I've never had access to one.

Then I don't understand how you can so quickly condemn them and be so sure you understand how shirted benching works.

Lunar Effect
11-18-2008, 11:47 AM
whats funny to me is that you don't hear the guys at the top of EITHER group complaining about the other.

I read an interview with Ed Coan where he mentioned that he thought using gear was for pussies (or something to that effect).

Travis Bell
11-18-2008, 11:53 AM
LOL I have no idea what interview you're talking about, but I can promise you Ed wouldn't agree with that statement. If he did say it, he may have said it out of frustration.

But I really doubt Ed said that because he wore gear almost all the time

Lunar Effect
11-18-2008, 11:55 AM
LOL I have no idea what interview you're talking about, but I can promise you Ed wouldn't agree with that statement. If he did say it, he may have said it out of frustration.

But I really doubt Ed said that because he wore gear almost all the time

this isn't the interview that I was referring to, but this is another one where he mrntions that he doesn't particularly care for gear:

http://www.criticalbench.com/Ed-Coan.htm

Travis Bell
11-18-2008, 11:59 AM
Yet he wore gear pretty consistently.

My point was that they don't diminish each other accomplishments, there is a mutual respect. Some of the posters in this thread don't seem to be able to show a level of respect for both accomplishments, rather they feel the need to tear one or the other down.

Alas, I tire of this thread. I have a final to go take. Have a nice day

Lunar Effect
11-18-2008, 12:04 PM
Yet he wore gear pretty consistently.
It wouldn't be the first time that he contradicted himself. He said in that very same interview that he never trains biceps, but I have read some of his routines where he does preacher curls.


My point was that they don't diminish each other accomplishments, there is a mutual respect. Some of the posters in this thread don't seem to be able to show a level of respect for both accomplishments, rather they feel the need to tear one or the other down.
I got your point. That being said, I don't really see how someone using gear could tear down someone not using gear. Especially if they're lifting near the same weight.


Alas, I tire of this thread. I have a final to go take. Have a nice day
Good luck on your final!

KarstenDD
11-18-2008, 12:31 PM
I read an interview with Ed Coan where he mentioned that he thought using gear was for pussies (or something to that effect).

I've heard this from Kaz pretty consistently recently. I believe I've only heard Ed Coan complain about newer, more advanced gear. I could be completely wrong though.

KarstenDD
11-18-2008, 12:33 PM
There's only one way to squat. Double ply, 2" high and 1 red light.

Wrong, there is also 3 pairs of briefs under canvas and 6" high. With 1 red of course. The effort was still there on your part and I support you for it.

Chubrock
11-18-2008, 01:02 PM
Wrong, there is also 3 pairs of briefs under canvas and 6" high. With 1 red of course. The effort was still there on your part and I support you for it.

I chalk that up to experience. I've only perfected the 2" high and 1 red. I've still got a lot of work to do.

Lones Green
11-18-2008, 01:10 PM
Wrong, there is also 3 pairs of briefs under canvas and 6" high. With 1 red of course. The effort was still there on your part and I support you for it.

LOL, looks like i need another couple pairs of briefs!!! :evillaugh:

Travis Bell
11-18-2008, 01:17 PM
How bout we just get you some that fit to begin with LOL

Reko
11-18-2008, 01:19 PM
How bout we just get you some that fit to begin with LOL

Hey don't be hating loose briefs!!!!
OH wait... they aren't loose any more... anyone have a bigger belt they want to sell me? haha

rbtrout
11-18-2008, 01:39 PM
I look at it this way -
I can build a motor that can make my car quite fast, just on one 4V carb......and I'll lose to the nitro belching blown car that just pulled up. It's just a competetive edge that gets you more.
Trust me, after wearing my squat suit quite frequently (but not enough, yet), you don't just put one on and your squat goes up 100#. I still squat more raw than with my suit. By reading all these posts (and other threads on them), you have to break in a suit and learn how to use it with your strength; then comes more weight. More weight = more strength, right? If not, we're all wasting our time adding weight.

BFGUITAR
11-18-2008, 01:41 PM
Ok I am not going to read this whole thread but I will put my input.

Until around May I didn't even use a belt. I got a belt and squatted atg 315 for my first time. The belt helped me learn to push myself, it has helped a lot. A few months later I got 2m knee wraps. I have never been able to push myself so hard in my life. I squatted 325x5 a few weeks ago. This is incredible progress. Of course, you can say the wraps helped but I would have not been able to push myself as hard without the wraps/belt. I can't explain it.

On the last rep of 325x5 I struggled like never before. My face turned all red, my eyes were blood shot... and I even think I peed myself lol.

The most grueling lift I had raw does not even compare to my most grueling lift with a belt/wraps. I can't even imagine what it would feel like to have a suit.

Dkalban
11-18-2008, 01:43 PM
Hate to both ask a noobish question/take over the thread, but what exactly do the belts/wraps/suits literally do that helps you move more weight?

KarstenDD
11-18-2008, 01:44 PM
Hate to both ask a noobish question/take over the thread, but what exactly do the belts/wraps/suits literally do that helps you move more weight?

I'll show you some of my stuff tonight.

Dkalban
11-18-2008, 01:45 PM
got ya lol.

Brad08
11-18-2008, 01:48 PM
Ok I am not going to read this whole thread but I will put my input.

Until around May I didn't even use a belt. I got a belt and squatted atg 315 for my first time. The belt helped me learn to push myself, it has helped a lot. A few months later I got 2m knee wraps. I have never been able to push myself so hard in my life. I squatted 325x5 a few weeks ago. This is incredible progress. Of course, you can say the wraps helped but I would have not been able to push myself as hard without the wraps/belt. I can't explain it.

On the last rep of 325x5 I struggled like never before. My face turned all red, my eyes were blood shot... and I even think I peed myself lol.

The most grueling lift I had raw does not even compare to my most grueling lift with a belt/wraps. I can't even imagine what it would feel like to have a suit.

Do others feel the same?

KarstenDD
11-18-2008, 01:50 PM
Do others feel the same?

Uh yea. Lifting in gear sucks really hard.

brihead301
11-18-2008, 01:58 PM
Well I'm glad I started this thread, because I got like 20 different opinions on this subject. That's exactly what I was looking to get too. Hell ya!!

Ben Moore
11-18-2008, 01:59 PM
I'll show you some of my stuff tonight.

Get a room...

Reko
11-18-2008, 02:08 PM
Do others feel the same?

Yes. The IAP/Valsalva spike is insane.
You get incredibly tight (as in compressed) which is what the gear does.

KarstenDD
11-18-2008, 02:10 PM
Get a room...

Maybe...

Detard
11-18-2008, 02:31 PM
I have a love/hate relationship with gear. I hate it when i'm setting up/doing the lift. But I love it after I complete the lift and I have a nice set of bursted vessels in my eyes, and some nice bruises on my body to go along with them.

Sensei
11-18-2008, 02:57 PM
Can a weaker lifter proficient with equipment lift more than a stronger lifter going raw? Hell yes and so what? If the raw lifter doesn't like it, they have choices - lift w. equipment and/or get stronger PERIOD.

Unless you've spent some time with equipment, there's no way you will have any appreciation for it. It is not an excuse to be weak. It is a different competition. If you don't like it, compete in raw-only competitions. If you don't compete, I don't understand why anyone would give a **** unless they had WAAAY too much time on their hands.

Lones Green
11-18-2008, 02:58 PM
Can a weaker lifter proficient with equipment lift more than a stronger lifter going raw? Hell yes and so what? If the raw lifter doesn't like it, they have choices - lift w. equipment and/or get stronger PERIOD.

Unless you've spent some time with equipment, there's no way you will have any appreciation for it. It is not an excuse to be weak. It is a different competition. If you don't like it, compete in raw-only competitions. If you don't compete, I don't understand why anyone would give a **** unless they had WAAAY too much time on their hands.

good post Sensei!

Lones Green
11-18-2008, 02:59 PM
How bout we just get you some that fit to begin with LOL

HAHA, this would also work. i have 2 pairs of vikings that each fit me at one point, but not even close now.

Hazerboy
11-18-2008, 03:02 PM
Tl;dr

Chris Rodgers
11-18-2008, 03:15 PM
Can a weaker lifter proficient with equipment lift more than a stronger lifter going raw? Hell yes and so what? If the raw lifter doesn't like it, they have choices - lift w. equipment and/or get stronger PERIOD.

Unless you've spent some time with equipment, there's no way you will have any appreciation for it. It is not an excuse to be weak. It is a different competition. If you don't like it, compete in raw-only competitions. If you don't compete, I don't understand why anyone would give a **** unless they had WAAAY too much time on their hands.


Excellent post Sensei! Anyone else who feels like arguing about this just needs to read this post.

vdizenzo
11-18-2008, 03:42 PM
I can bench big either way so I don't really care :moon:

vdizenzo
11-18-2008, 03:45 PM
Seriously though, I know guys who get over 300 pounds from their shirts. That would put me at 900+. I am not there yet, but I don't complain. I just have to learn the shirt and technique better. Crying about sh1t is for bitches. I'll just SFW!

KarstenDD
11-18-2008, 04:00 PM
Seriously though, I know guys who get over 300 pounds from their shirts. That would put me at 900+. I am not there yet, but I don't complain. I just have to learn the shirt and technique better. Crying about sh1t is for bitches. I'll just SFW!

BOOM MF'ER!

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/0225/ncf_wmuschamp_300.jpg

ThePunisherson
11-18-2008, 04:33 PM
I don't understand the point of cleats in football... Doesn't that defeat the purpose of training to move quickly? Doesn't it just allow you to artificially turn faster and stuff?

I don't understand the point of skates in hockey... Don't they just make you move faster on ice?

I don't understand the point of swim caps and suits in speed swimming... Doesn't it defeat the purpose of training to go fast when you can just put on a swim cap and a jacked up suit that will make you swim faster?

Understand now?


Every sport has its equipment. Not all pick up games of hockey have shoulder pads and shin guards but it's never referred to as RAW hockey. If powerlifting were a mainstream sport you wouldn't question the equipment at all, just like you don't for any other sport. The only reason it ever comes up is because ever guy who has ever stepped in to a gym thinks he could do what we do if he had a squat suit and bench shirt too.

This is one of the best things I have ever read in my entire life...well done deeder, thats a perfect explanation.

HP666
11-18-2008, 07:07 PM
Can a weaker lifter proficient with equipment lift more than a stronger lifter going raw? Hell yes and so what? If the raw lifter doesn't like it, they have choices - lift w. equipment and/or get stronger PERIOD.

Unless you've spent some time with equipment, there's no way you will have any appreciation for it. It is not an excuse to be weak. It is a different competition. If you don't like it, compete in raw-only competitions. If you don't compete, I don't understand why anyone would give a **** unless they had WAAAY too much time on their hands.


Best post on this thread!!!!!

I find that people who are against gear are 99.9% of the time people who have never tried it and really have no idea what they're talking about.....
and they haven't tried it because A) they can't afford it(lame excuse), B) they think it makes their lifting less manly for some reason(lame excuse), or C) which is plain and simple, they are scared of it. Which is why the anti gear prejudice comes into play. Kind of like a microcosm of society, people display bigotry and prejudice about a lot of things due to ignorance. This is no different. And the first guy that gets on here and says "I tried it and I hated it! I think it's wrong to use gear!", I wanna see a picture of you wearing it and training.

brihead301
11-19-2008, 07:14 AM
Good explanation Sensei. No, I never competed before, nor am I against using gear. I'm new at this, and I like lifting raw for now. I honestly was just interested in this debate as I find most things about powerlifting to be very interesting.

accuFLEX
11-19-2008, 08:08 AM
The only problem I have with gear is the cost. At $100 a pop, thatís $300 just for suits, not to mention belts arenít cheap nor are special shoes. Also, I hear bench shirts give out fairly quick. I understand that you can lift without it, but thatís like playing on the PGA tour with a set of clubs from walmart versus a custom set made by Titleist, the performance just isnít there. Bottom line, if you want to be competitive you need the right gear.

If youíre just lifting for yourself and trying to hit a new PR, who gives a **** then.

deeder
11-19-2008, 02:14 PM
The only problem I have with gear is the cost. At $100 a pop, thatís $300 just for suits, not to mention belts arenít cheap nor are special shoes. Also, I hear bench shirts give out fairly quick. I understand that you can lift without it, but thatís like playing on the PGA tour with a set of clubs from walmart versus a custom set made by Titleist, the performance just isnít there. Bottom line, if you want to be competitive you need the right gear.

If youíre just lifting for yourself and trying to hit a new PR, who gives a **** then.

100$ a pop? Haha yeah if you're getting the "walmart clubs".

My current competition equipment:
Metal King Squatter: 175$
Metal King Presser: 200$
Metal King Sumo Deadlifter: 165$
Metal All Black Knee Wraps: 56$
Inzer Economy Power Belt: 40$
Olympic Weightlifting Shoes (I can't remember the brand): 150$
Chucks: 60$
Deadlift Socks: 14$
Singlet: 40$

Total: 900$

Other equipment that I own:
5 pairs of Metal All Black Knee Wraps
Metal Viking Squatter
Metal V-Type Squatter
Metal Viking Presser
Metal Viking Deadlifter

I did my first contest in full gear August 2007 :hello: Before that I was just using knee wraps and a belt.

Reko
11-19-2008, 02:21 PM
$60 for chucks?

You need to learn how to bargain shop!

accuFLEX
11-19-2008, 02:50 PM
deeder, doesn't Titan make pretty solid bench shirts for $100? I realize some brands will cost more. For me, being a student, I can't afford all the powerlifting gear which sucks if I wanted to be competitive in comps (I live in a small province and we don't have raw comps). But who knows, maybe in a few years I'll buy some equipment and compete.

WillNoble
11-19-2008, 03:19 PM
I live in a small province and we don't have raw comps


Your fed wont let you lift raw???!

Chris Rodgers
11-19-2008, 03:33 PM
$60 for chucks?

You need to learn how to bargain shop!


He's from Canada EH. That's like $20 here, lol.

Reko
11-19-2008, 05:59 PM
He's from Canada EH. That's like $20 here, lol.
Lol. It was actually worth more for a brief bit, and still is up there I think about 80 Canadian cents to the dollar.

accuFLEX
11-19-2008, 07:56 PM
Your fed wont let you lift raw???!

They will. Regeneration is $60. I think if everyone else lifted raw I'd be able to be competitive locally in the 90kg class, but $60 for 9 lifts just to get blown out of the water is a bit much.

Reko
11-19-2008, 07:58 PM
Regeneration is $60.

**** thats worth the death penalty!!!!!!
Are we limited to 8 regens like cats or is it determined by how much money we have?

You can probably guy used gear for cheap if you want. Its a good way to try out different styles/brands without having to shell out too much money. Plus they will be broken in already and easier to work with.

deeder
11-19-2008, 08:31 PM
$60 for chucks?

You need to learn how to bargain shop!

Bargain shopping doesn't happen the night before your first contest when you realize at about 8pm that you can't squat and deadlift in socks... :p