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Ryan Hale
11-19-2008, 11:47 AM
I know the answer guys.:)

Need some good and honest feedback here.I had a kid show up today(1st day)that has the attitude that deadlifts are not good for you and only hurt your back.Were talking a kid that is involved in football and basketball.You suppose the deadlift could help him a little in these sports?

Ryan Hale

Lunar Effect
11-19-2008, 11:57 AM
The deadlift works the entire body and taxes the hell out of your CNS. It is as good of an exercise that there is for making the entire body grow and developing bone-crushing power and strength. So no, it won't help a little...it will help a LOT. You can tell him that he can either act like a man and deadlift, or he can be a pussy and not deadlift.

brihead301
11-19-2008, 12:18 PM
Deadlifts are very important if you want to get a much stronger body, which is pretty important for an athlete. Now, if you just want to get good at math or something, then I'd say they are not very important. It all depends on what your goals are.

pie zar
11-19-2008, 01:15 PM
If done correctly I think the dead lift actually helps prevent injurys in sports. It also strenghens your whole body and is pretty much the best exercise you can do.

Athos
11-19-2008, 01:44 PM
I really can't say it better than Lunar Effect did. I used to work in a commercial gym and inevitably what I found was that people who said squats and deadlifts were not good for you or that they were unsafe were always the same people that were extremely weak. If you want to skip out on the tough exercises that is fine, but don't spew garbage about how they aren't good for you when all of the evidence is to the contrary. If your form is good and you warm up properly, you are not going to hurt yourself doing deadlifts. The only side-effect is that you will get ridiculously strong and thick, if you don't like that, then sure, I guess you don't need to deadlift.

prettyboyfloyd
11-19-2008, 01:48 PM
The deadlift works the entire body and taxes the hell out of your CNS. It is as good of an exercise that there is for making the entire body grow and developing bone-crushing power and strength. So no, it won't help a little...it will help a LOT. You can tell him that he can either act like a man and deadlift, or he can be a pussy and not deadlift.

Well said that man!

drew
11-19-2008, 01:50 PM
I know the answer guys.:)

Need some good and honest feedback here.I had a kid show up today(1st day)that has the attitude that deadlifts are not good for you and only hurt your back.Were talking a kid that is involved in football and basketball.You suppose the deadlift could help him a little in these sports?

Ryan Hale

He's right. Deadlifts are no good. Squats are no good (they also can hurt your back). Same thing with good mornings, rows and lunges. Benching is no good because it puts too much stress on your shoulders, same with any kind of overhead movement.

No, really the only way to avoid injury is to sit on your ass and do nothing.

See if that helps him become a better football player.

thewicked
11-19-2008, 01:55 PM
they are THE number one total body exercise for overall strength and power. No one single other lift stimulates more muscle groups..

answer enough?! :D

SGT ROCK
11-19-2008, 07:17 PM
Most of the experienced lifters that don't do deadlifts are just plain lazy,make too many excuses, and try and find routines that advocate NOT deadlifting. Exception would be someone injured, or doing a high profile bench meet etc....yes there are exceptions, but few in my opinion. Lets just put that right out there. Many of the best bench specialists that I know personally, including Ryan, regularly deadlift off season, Tiny DLs off season, as for bbers Ronnie used to pull pre contest for Mr O. As for overtaxing the CNS, thats a bunch of BULL SH IT if you ask me. No one EVER mentioned that until Louie said it, when he was big on Bill Stars increasing your pull without pulling, even though Mr. Star is far from a world class puller himself, nothing against him personally, but PLEASE show me any elite puller in a show that didn't do any pulls leading up to the show. ANY compound movement done in a very taxing manner or to failure will be hard to recover from, the DL is no different. But people shying away from them due to taxing the CNS are simply finding an easy way out in MY OPINION. I recently wrapped up a very intense 16 week cycle for worlds, my traning partners were 61, 50 and 25, some sumo, some conv, and one partner early in the cycle was female and over 50. We pulled EVERY SINGLE WEEK and heavy, including rev bands going above contest maxes, and EVERY single lifter hit a PR at the end of the cycle, so much for CNS taxation.....thats my CNS rant, felt good to get it out lol. So to answer your question, deadlifts are a GREAT excercise and no other movement will give you better back development than heavy 5 rep sets of the good old conventional deadlift.

Semper Fi

HP666
11-19-2008, 08:50 PM
I recently wrapped up a very intense 16 week cycle for worlds, my traning partners were 61, 50 and 25, some sumo, some conv, and one partner early in the cycle was female and over 50. We pulled EVERY SINGLE WEEK and heavy, including rev bands going above contest maxes, and EVERY single lifter hit a PR at the end of the cycle, so much for CNS taxation...
Semper Fi

Hey Sarge,

Question for you. During this 16 week cycle what was your other training like? I.E. squats, bench, etc. I ask because I am about to start a training cycle myself and was curious about where to deadlift; Let me explain.... I train Westside philosophy mainly, 2 max days, 2 speed days. I've had it drilled in my head just what you said above, "don't pull too much", etc, etc. I've been told on Max days after Squatting to do a few light speed pulls either off the floor or pins, that there's no need to do more. WELL, my deadlift sucks and I think that's a load of bull****, if I want to get a bigger, better deadlift, I need to DEADLIFT. Quite a revelation!!! My question is where to do it during the week. I pull Sumo, I'm 39 years old, and drug free, so I do need my recovery time after squatting heavy/DLing. I was hoping you could throw a few ideas my way regarding getting more DLing in. And fyi I'm not married to Westside and I am willing to mix it up. I'd appreciate any thoughts you may share.

Travis Bell
11-19-2008, 09:05 PM
Yikes, little rant against Lou there Brent? LOL

We pull in one way or another every week. Not always heavy though

MattBag
11-19-2008, 09:25 PM
Deads are the one lift I find hard to do more than once a week. and I don't think its because i just added them to my training regimen. I truly believe they are one of the toughest lifts out there and I avoided them for as long as possible but since i stepped up over the last couple months they are for sure my favorite lift, to bad I can't handle more than once a week.

Lunar Effect
11-19-2008, 10:08 PM
As for overtaxing the CNS, thats a bunch of BULL SH IT if you ask me. No one EVER mentioned that until Louie said it, when he was big on Bill Stars increasing your pull without pulling, even though Mr. Star is far from a world class puller himself, nothing against him personally, but PLEASE show me any elite puller in a show that didn't do any pulls leading up to the show. ANY compound movement done in a very taxing manner or to failure will be hard to recover from, the DL is no different. But people shying away from them due to taxing the CNS are simply finding an easy way out in MY OPINION. I recently wrapped up a very intense 16 week cycle for worlds, my traning partners were 61, 50 and 25, some sumo, some conv, and one partner early in the cycle was female and over 50. We pulled EVERY SINGLE WEEK and heavy, including rev bands going above contest maxes, and EVERY single lifter hit a PR at the end of the cycle, so much for CNS taxation.....thats my CNS rant, felt good to get it out lol.

I didn't hear anyone mention overtaxing the CNS. I just said that the deadlift is very taxing to the CNS, which it is. I deadlift weekly with either the coventional pull or trap bar deads, but there's no way I could pull more than 4 sets per week. Nothing wears me out like deads...

Hazerboy
11-19-2008, 10:38 PM
Most of the experienced lifters that don't do deadlifts are just plain lazy,make too many excuses, and try and find routines that advocate NOT deadlifting. Exception would be someone injured, or doing a high profile bench meet etc....yes there are exceptions, but few in my opinion. Lets just put that right out there. Many of the best bench specialists that I know personally, including Ryan, regularly deadlift off season, Tiny DLs off season, as for bbers Ronnie used to pull pre contest for Mr O. As for overtaxing the CNS, thats a bunch of BULL SH IT if you ask me. No one EVER mentioned that until Louie said it, when he was big on Bill Stars increasing your pull without pulling, even though Mr. Star is far from a world class puller himself, nothing against him personally, but PLEASE show me any elite puller in a show that didn't do any pulls leading up to the show. ANY compound movement done in a very taxing manner or to failure will be hard to recover from, the DL is no different. But people shying away from them due to taxing the CNS are simply finding an easy way out in MY OPINION. I recently wrapped up a very intense 16 week cycle for worlds, my traning partners were 61, 50 and 25, some sumo, some conv, and one partner early in the cycle was female and over 50. We pulled EVERY SINGLE WEEK and heavy, including rev bands going above contest maxes, and EVERY single lifter hit a PR at the end of the cycle, so much for CNS taxation.....thats my CNS rant, felt good to get it out lol. So to answer your question, deadlifts are a GREAT excercise and no other movement will give you better back development than heavy 5 rep sets of the good old conventional deadlift.

Semper Fi

Its cool to see someone go "against the guru." I feel like a lot of people take what Louie says to be gospel.

That being said, I'm not an awesome deadlifter, but it is my best lift. Every time I've maxed for the last 2 years or so I make a PR, and all I really do is squat work/good mornings, and occasional speed deadlift work(oh wait, and a CRAPLOAD of rows/chins/pull ups/etc). So I feel like it is really easy to add pounds to your deadlift without deadlifting--I don't feel like I could add pounds to my squat or bench without upright squatting or benching!

BUT, like you said, this will never make you an elite deadlifter--unless I'm mistaken, westside hasn't produced that many great deadlifters, no?

Oh, and to the OP--

Make him watch some videos of some really, really freaking strong people deadlifting. WSM stuff or something. then tell him that these guys have the strongest backs in the WORLD, and that they would totally kick his ass in football if they ever met him on the field, technique or no technique XD.

If that still doesn't convince him, slap him around a bit, then throw sciency stuff at him or something. :-p

Mosnar
11-19-2008, 10:57 PM
I personally like this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V_PbCLCfv0

Jouko is yoked. That is a good reason for deadlifting.

Travis Bell
11-19-2008, 11:12 PM
Its cool to see someone go "against the guru." I feel like a lot of people take what Louie says to be gospel.

I'd guess that might be because the guy produces results. People seem to like results



BUT, like you said, this will never make you an elite deadlifter--unless I'm mistaken, westside hasn't produced that many great deadlifters, no?

Unless 800lb deadlifts are considered not great

If they are however, we've produced more great deadlifters than any other gym to my knowledge (15 lifters who have pulled 800+)

You tell me what works

To each their own though. Train how you like I guess :) Nothing against Brent and his training, he obviously doesn't care for the way we do things at Westside. Its cool to see how other people train and there certainly is no right or wrong way to train. Whatever suits ya

Cards
11-19-2008, 11:35 PM
It's a must and my absolute favorite lift. Bench day is fun but there's nothing like deadlift day.

TheVrolok
11-20-2008, 01:21 AM
It's a must and my absolute favorite lift. Bench day is fun but there's nothing like deadlift day.

^^ what he said.

coldfire
11-20-2008, 01:25 AM
Unless 800lb deadlifts are considered not great

If they are however, we've produced more great deadlifters than any other gym to my knowledge (15 lifters who have pulled 800+)


But how many pulled 900+?

SGT ROCK
11-20-2008, 01:59 AM
To each their own though. Train how you like I guess :) Nothing against Brent and his training, he obviously doesn't care for the way we do things at Westside. Its cool to see how other people train and there certainly is no right or wrong way to train. Whatever suits ya[/QUOTE]


Hey brother it isnt about me NOT liking or as you put it, caring for the way Louie advocates to train, it is about me not AGREEING with that CERTAIN ASPECT. I have learned alot from Louie, no question. But without QUESTION the best DLERS OF ALL TIME ALL PULL HEAVY AND OFTEN, WITHOUT EXCEPTION. For an example of this merely take the all time best dlers list top to bottom, not one guy trained the OLD westside way which was little or no dling, if you will not Louies MORE RECENT dl articles advocate MORE dling, as opposed to his advocating Bill Starrs no dling in the past. The best deadlifters all time all pull heavy, and an overwhelming majority of todays best all pull heavy as well. Konstantinovs, Kutcher, Coan, Hawthorne, Caprari are some of todays best, and ALL pull heavy and often for example. I would love to go to Westside someday and learn, its not anti Westside, its just not agreeing with NOT pulling heavy for BEST results.

Semper Fi

SGT ROCK
11-20-2008, 02:03 AM
I didn't hear anyone mention overtaxing the CNS. I just said that the deadlift is very taxing to the CNS, which it is. I deadlift weekly with either the coventional pull or trap bar deads, but there's no way I could pull more than 4 sets per week. Nothing wears me out like deads...


Ok brother how do you measure OVER taxing vs TAXING.....DLS are no more TAXING to the CNS than a heavy set of SQUATS done to exhaustion I would guess. There is no way to really measure CNS taxation so we could argue for days, so that term really means jack to me to be honest, it is just a way to avoid pulling heavy which is the new trend, don't believe me, the deadlift numbers are DOWN in recent years on the top 100 lists, and the squats and benches way up as it is much more fashionable to wear great gear and get a big boost in the other lifts, but MUCH more difficult to get the DL to move, ie you must PULL HEAVY. I just got back from the WABDL worlds, and the top five pullers by formula ALL PULL HEAVY EVERY SINGLE WEEK, just another example.

Semper Fi

SGT ROCK
11-20-2008, 02:04 AM
Yikes, little rant against Lou there Brent? LOL

We pull in one way or another every week. Not always heavy though

No way brother...I like Louie!

Semper Fi

flappysr
11-20-2008, 04:35 AM
Ok brother how do you measure OVER taxing vs TAXING.....DLS are no more TAXING to the CNS than a heavy set of SQUATS done to exhaustion I would guess. There is no way to really measure CNS taxation so we could argue for days, so that term really means jack to me to be honest, it is just a way to avoid pulling heavy which is the new trend, don't believe me, the deadlift numbers are DOWN in recent years on the top 100 lists, and the squats and benches way up as it is much more fashionable to wear great gear and get a big boost in the other lifts, but MUCH more difficult to get the DL to move, ie you must PULL HEAVY. I just got back from the WABDL worlds, and the top five pullers by formula ALL PULL HEAVY EVERY SINGLE WEEK, just another example.

Semper Fi


AWESOME. SGT. ROCK. I, MYSELF DEADLIFT WEEKLY IN MY POWERLIFTING CYCLE.Don't like all the systems to NOT Deadlift weekly. They are usually just Lazy folks. Going for the Bigger Better Super Suited Lifts, with these Super Suits on. Bigger Squats 200 to 300 Lbs more then there Best Deadlift?? Benches Bigger then your Deadlifts??? What??? Anyway. I'LL, be standing by for more of your DeadLift training articles and Deadlift Suit info. Video of Awesome Conventional Deadlifts, in or out of the Cage.................

Darracq
11-20-2008, 08:03 AM
ON a radio show, Ryan said he doesnt deadlift, maybe thats only when he is getting ready for a meet though.

Travis Bell
11-20-2008, 09:01 AM
Hey brother it isnt about me NOT liking or as you put it, caring for the way Louie advocates to train, it is about me not AGREEING with that CERTAIN ASPECT. I have learned alot from Louie, no question. But without QUESTION the best DLERS OF ALL TIME ALL PULL HEAVY AND OFTEN, WITHOUT EXCEPTION. For an example of this merely take the all time best dlers list top to bottom, not one guy trained the OLD westside way which was little or no dling, if you will not Louies MORE RECENT dl articles advocate MORE dling, as opposed to his advocating Bill Starrs no dling in the past. The best deadlifters all time all pull heavy, and an overwhelming majority of todays best all pull heavy as well. Konstantinovs, Kutcher, Coan, Hawthorne, Caprari are some of todays best, and ALL pull heavy and often for example. I would love to go to Westside someday and learn, its not anti Westside, its just not agreeing with NOT pulling heavy for BEST results.

Semper Fi

I understand what you're saying, but Lou isn't just about the deadlift. He's more concerned with the total

Now the deadlifters you mentioned most certainly do pull often and heavy. Kutcher unfortunately ended up ruining his back if I'm not mistaken, but Konstantinovs is a good example because he doesn't appear to have injuries at all. Unfortunately his total is not the best.

The other thing to take into consideration is there are going to be guys who are the exception to the rule. IMO Lou has found a good happy medium between training agressively while still focusing on the total.

Guido
11-20-2008, 09:11 AM
I've always had the best results from pulling every week. I try not to pull too heavy if I'm squatting heavy in the same week and vice versa, but in general whenever I've stopped pulling every week during a training cycle my deadlift has stagnated.

BigBatz
11-20-2008, 09:18 AM
I'm no great lifter but I've found that heavy deads once a week has helped my deadlift. I was stuck at 405 for since doing light deads once a week. After four weeks of heavy deads I pulled 405X3 (new PR) and that was after my all of my work sets. I guess I was feeling froggy that day.

Brad08
11-20-2008, 09:36 AM
I know the answer guys.:)

Need some good and honest feedback here.I had a kid show up today(1st day)that has the attitude that deadlifts are not good for you and only hurt your back.Were talking a kid that is involved in football and basketball.You suppose the deadlift could help him a little in these sports?

Ryan Hale

Strong(er) muscles are a precursor to improving other athletic abilities, such as speed, power, starting strength, acceleration, etc. More strength means more ability to express power. I've never seen a football or basketball player that couldn't benefit from more power. And the deadlift is one great way to get there--it builds overall body strength and specifically builds mass in the posterior chain.

Lunar Effect
11-20-2008, 11:19 AM
Ok brother how do you measure OVER taxing vs TAXING.....
I couldn't tell you because I can't say that I've been overtaxed. Something that is taxing to me means that I have been pushed to my absolute limits and I'm worn the **** out.


DLS are no more TAXING to the CNS than a heavy set of SQUATS done to exhaustion
That may be your experience, but that isn't mine. I have always been able to deadlift much more than I can squat, and am always light-headed and seeing tiny silver lights after my sets of deadlifts. I am beat after squats as well, but nothing like deads.


I just got back from the WABDL worlds, and the top five pullers by formula ALL PULL HEAVY EVERY SINGLE WEEK, just another example.
Cool. I pull heavy every week as well so it sounds like we agree on the program.

SGT ROCK
11-20-2008, 02:17 PM
I understand what you're saying, but Lou isn't just about the deadlift. He's more concerned with the total

Now the deadlifters you mentioned most certainly do pull often and heavy. Kutcher unfortunately ended up ruining his back if I'm not mistaken, but Konstantinovs is a good example because he doesn't appear to have injuries at all. Unfortunately his total is not the best.

The other thing to take into consideration is there are going to be guys who are the exception to the rule. IMO Lou has found a good happy medium between training agressively while still focusing on the total.

Ok brother good arguement, NOW we get into the total where of course GEAR is going to get into play. I dont want to do it but we are going to have to as you brought up the TOTAL. Eddy Coan, in SINGLE ply geat CANNOT be touched, he dls every single week, throw in Kuc, Bridges and Pacifico and you have 4 ALL TIME total holders that actually held that record for MANY YEARS, ALL pulled heavy, they must have found the heavy medium for taking total into consideration because NOT ONE WESTSIDE TRAINED GUY can touch any of those guys UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS....you brought it up the total lol, I am following through here. Now we throw in Gant, Sivokon and Kutcher, (back wrecked or not who can touch his new total), Bolton and Frank and I have a crew that in single ply gear was and NEVER have been touched, and a few in today gear that also CANNOT be touched, and that was in about one minute of thinking. So now let me rephrase, THE HUGE MAJORITY OF THE BEST ALL TIME DEADLIFTERS AND STRONGEST POWERLIFTERS PULL HEAVY NEARLY EVERY SINGLE WEEK!
Westside DID have many great pullers at one time, that list has dwindled considerably, Panora is a good puller but many arent there anymore from what I have read. If ANYONE goes against ANYTHING that Westside says its just not fashionable, no ONE man knows it all and I strongly disagree with NOT pulling to increase your pull which Louie did indeed advocate, and I have the history and facts, current and past, to back it up, as well as personal experience. Great thing about the DL is gear does little to cloud the facts.

Semper Fi

Semper Fi

chimp_53
11-20-2008, 02:27 PM
I never felt as thick until I started doing deadlifts. Man, after a few weeks of those, I just seemed thicker and more stout and more solid. I noticed that it really made my back and shoulders look extra good, and my arms and forearms beefed up and looked much better too. And I'd been squatting for years prior to deadlifting.

I'm all for 'em. When I started, and I still do, I don't worry about the amount of weight I'm using. I don't worry about getting higher and higher poundage, I don't worry about the numbers like I do some other lifts. Deads are about the only lift that I don't cheat or compromise my form either. Never. I just do them with perfect form until my head feels like it's going to explode and then stop.

Do them twice a week for a month and I guarantee you'll feel like a monster.

Travis Bell
11-20-2008, 02:33 PM
Brent, you can show me all the historical articles you like man, but I'm there every week so I can just tell you what we do NOW. Training has changed. We currently have training at Westside 4 800lb pullers (only 3 of them in a meet though) and that doesn't include the 3 that recently left either. Whether or not those 3 still train there, they still hit their first 800lb deads at Westside. Thats 6 guys within recent training years that have hit 800+ deads. That doesn't count Matt Smith who has an 850 pull, still trains at Westside, but we won't count him because right now he is not capable of that due to a neck injury.

We DO pull every week. We do NOT pull heavy every week.

Nowhere in our current training (I've been there for almost 5 years now) will you find our guys not pulling to increase their pull. Is Lou not allowed to alter his training methods over the years? Why is it that if Lou says something once, its as if its frozen in stone. I do know what you're talking about in the past when Lou advocated using other exercises to increase the deadlift. It did work for many people. That isn't the way we currently train.

To be terribly honest, I wouldn't be here arguing with you about this if your original statement hadn't been quite so directly pointed at Lou.

I do understand where you're comming from and your results do speak for themselves very well.

Mosnar
11-20-2008, 03:39 PM
Travis, do you guys do speed pulls on the days that you do not pull heavy? Or is it just another variation of the DL (one week reverse band, next heavy pull from the floor, next rack pull, etc.)?

Travis Bell
11-20-2008, 03:48 PM
Yep. Speed pulls is usually whats done. Sometimes they are deficit speed pulls

HP666
11-20-2008, 04:20 PM
Yep. Speed pulls is usually whats done. Sometimes they are deficit speed pulls

Hey Travis,

So when you guys pull now, whether lighter for speed or heavy, do you do it after squatting/main exercise on ME day, or do you do it after squatting on your speed lower day? Or does it differ depending on the weight being used? I'm just trying to work it out because I'm basically training myself now and I need to get working on my DL, it lags far behind my squat at the moment.
Thanks man.

SGT ROCK
11-20-2008, 04:59 PM
No worries bro, I SMILE as I am typing this, your quite loyal to be coming to Louies defense here, even though it really isnt about him. Bro read back....Louie ADVOCATED INCREASE YOUR PULLING WITHOUT PULLING, if he recently changed this, then good for him, he is doing what the BEST pullers are doing. As for COMPETITON pulls, who is at WESTSIDE RIGHT NOW and their best pulls? They do have some awesome lifters, Panora is a friend of mine in particular, but in my opinion too many people see what he writes and run with it as gospel ie INCREASE YOUR DL WITHOUT DLING! You CANNOT do this effectively, especially as a beginner. Have Louie enter a DL show without dling, or anyone from any gym from that matter and let me know what the results were. Yeah bro, I took a shot at one of Louies articles, but he has taken MANY shots bro, he was simply WRONG and thats a fact, the man is a wealth of knowledge, but what he says is simlpy NOT gospel. The best lifter of all time NEVER followed ANY of Lous principles, and the best group of pullers accross the board one could argue are the Finns, ditto on their training methods.

Semper Fi




Brent, you can show me all the historical articles you like man, but I'm there every week so I can just tell you what we do NOW. Training has changed. We currently have training at Westside 4 800lb pullers (only 3 of them in a meet though) and that doesn't include the 3 that recently left either. Whether or not those 3 still train there, they still hit their first 800lb deads at Westside. Thats 6 guys within recent training years that have hit 800+ deads. That doesn't count Matt Smith who has an 850 pull, still trains at Westside, but we won't count him because right now he is not capable of that due to a neck injury.

We DO pull every week. We do NOT pull heavy every week.

Nowhere in our current training (I've been there for almost 5 years now) will you find our guys not pulling to increase their pull. Is Lou not allowed to alter his training methods over the years? Why is it that if Lou says something once, its as if its frozen in stone. I do know what you're talking about in the past when Lou advocated using other exercises to increase the deadlift. It did work for many people. That isn't the way we currently train.

To be terribly honest, I wouldn't be here arguing with you about this if your original statement hadn't been quite so directly pointed at Lou.

I do understand where you're comming from and your results do speak for themselves very well.

Big o Boy
11-20-2008, 05:31 PM
I don't mean to jump into this between minds much more knowledgeable than mine, and I apologize if I'm wrong... but aren't you guys putting Westside's small amount of lifters up against the the greatest in the world? It would seem that those few guys at Westside would have a hard time competing (just speaking of the deadlift) with such a pool of great deadlifters around the globe. Training "right" or not.

SGT ROCK
11-20-2008, 05:41 PM
Bro its all in good fun, its not an attack. Louie has had numerous articles bragging about the lifts of his gym vs the world, and rightfully so, at one time he had one of the best gyms on the earth. Its not about Westside as much as it is about not dling heavy every week, which Louie has advocated on more than one occasion, and I get emails and inquiries every single week asking my thoughts on it. Many folks think if he says it, its gospel. I am getting a bit of flack for going against the norm, but....I have FACTS to back it up so no worries. Louie has done alot for PL, advocating NOT pulling every week is NOT one of them.

Semper Fi


QUOTE=Big o Boy;2041178]I don't mean to jump into this between minds much more knowledgeable than mine, and I apologize if I'm wrong... but aren't you guys putting Westside's small amount of lifters up against the the greatest in the world? It would seem that those few guys at Westside would have a hard time competing (just speaking of the deadlift) with such a pool of great deadlifters around the globe. Training "right" or not.[/QUOTE]

Travis Bell
11-20-2008, 07:26 PM
nah Brent, we're all good. The number of lifters I mentioned was in fact current members at Westside Barbell who could pull 800+ today. Thats why I didn't include Matt Smith because even though he has pulled 850 in the past and does still train at Westside, he isn't capable of it right now. The most prominent ones would be Greg Panora, Luke Edwards, Jeremiah Meyers, Chuck Vogelpohl and Dave Hoff (the last two recently left but still pulled his first 800 while training at Westside) But those lifters have trained the entire time under the current system of training (aside from Chuck)

I'd still disagree with you that Lou was wrong in the past because it did produce results. The old system did produce many lifters who were great deadlifters. To me, the results are the facts.

I think you may be thinking I'm saying Westside is the ONLY way to train which is not what I'm trying to convey. What I'm saying though is what Lou did in the past worked. What he does not worked. What Andy Bolton does obviously works. What Ed Coan did worked/works. Personally I don't think that there is a right or wrong here, so long as what you're doing is helping your deadlift, thats the objective. But does that mean that the way that Bolton, Coan or anyone else's method is the RIGHT way? I don't personally think so. Its THEIR way.

Good discussion though

SGT ROCK
11-20-2008, 09:04 PM
Panora is one of the best pullers in the world right now, I am certain that if need be he could put up a current all time best at 242 right now, or even 275 with 821-832 if he needed it for a win, I have seen him pull and he is technically very sound. Someday I am going to make it out to Westside and get some pointers from Louie and the gang. My reason for my post was that I was getting an inordinate amount of emails from mostly beginners that were looking for a way around pulling heavy and quoted Lous previous articles so I had to set them straight. Tell Greg to keep pullin brother and that I am rooting for him!

Semper Fi



nah Brent, we're all good. The number of lifters I mentioned was in fact current members at Westside Barbell who could pull 800+ today. Thats why I didn't include Matt Smith because even though he has pulled 850 in the past and does still train at Westside, he isn't capable of it right now. The most prominent ones would be Greg Panora, Luke Edwards, Jeremiah Meyers, Chuck Vogelpohl and Dave Hoff (the last two recently left but still pulled his first 800 while training at Westside) But those lifters have trained the entire time under the current system of training (aside from Chuck)

I'd still disagree with you that Lou was wrong in the past because it did produce results. The old system did produce many lifters who were great deadlifters. To me, the results are the facts.

I think you may be thinking I'm saying Westside is the ONLY way to train which is not what I'm trying to convey. What I'm saying though is what Lou did in the past worked. What he does not worked. What Andy Bolton does obviously works. What Ed Coan did worked/works. Personally I don't think that there is a right or wrong here, so long as what you're doing is helping your deadlift, thats the objective. But does that mean that the way that Bolton, Coan or anyone else's method is the RIGHT way? I don't personally think so. Its THEIR way.

Good discussion though

JHarris
11-20-2008, 09:26 PM
I'm going to go a little against the grain here and say that I don't think that deadlifts are necessary to be strong, but if you aren't doing them you are going to have to go to some real effort to replace the effect they could have. I haven't done a conventional deadlift in a while, but clean/snatch pulls(fairly different motion) and RDLs I think more than make up for the fact.

I think that most people who don't do them don't have an argument on the issue. Only if the deadlift would actually injure your ability in a sport due to changing muscle recruitment or something similar should they not be included.

Hazerboy
11-20-2008, 09:29 PM
I'd guess that might be because the guy produces results. People seem to like results




Unless 800lb deadlifts are considered not great

If they are however, we've produced more great deadlifters than any other gym to my knowledge (15 lifters who have pulled 800+)

You tell me what works

To each their own though. Train how you like I guess :) Nothing against Brent and his training, he obviously doesn't care for the way we do things at Westside. Its cool to see how other people train and there certainly is no right or wrong way to train. Whatever suits ya

Oh don't get me wrong, I've read all sorts of loui's stuff. The guy produces results--there's no doubt about this. Rock already said this, but I guess my point was that a lot of people take what he says as the end all, be all. I think just the fact that has training has changed over the years shows that this isn't true.

As for great deadlifts - an 800 lb deadlift is awesome! If I could deadlift 800 one day that would be beyond my dreams. My point was something the rock had already said-- all the guys in the TOP, very top, greatest of all time, pulled heavy every week, something which in a couple of (probably outdated) articles I've read from Loui he was against.

But good discussion though. Lot of cool info here, I think you and Sgt. Rock have said about all of it though :-p

SGT ROCK
11-20-2008, 09:59 PM
Oh don't get me wrong, I've read all sorts of loui's stuff. The guy produces results--there's no doubt about this. Rock already said this, but I guess my point was that a lot of people take what he says as the end all, be all. I think just the fact that has training has changed over the years shows that this isn't true.

As for great deadlifts - an 800 lb deadlift is awesome! If I could deadlift 800 one day that would be beyond my dreams. My point was something the rock had already said-- all the guys in the TOP, very top, greatest of all time, pulled heavy every week, something which in a couple of (probably outdated) articles I've read from Loui he was against.

But good discussion though. Lot of cool info here, I think you and Sgt. Rock have said about all of it though :-p




Bro your input is appreciated! Keep it going bros, lets get everyones thoughts here. What makes this board a bit different from others is that guys like Travis and I have a difference of opinion, and one day later will pm each other for training advice or other friendly inquiries. Yes Louie is an AWESOME coach, but what he says isnt the be all end or all and he is certainly not always right. I found ONE thing out of hundreds that I disagreed with and I found CONCRETE PROOF in the listings to prove my point, but many of Lous writings are VERY valid and informational. He is not the holy grail of coaches, but certainly most anyone could learn from him, me included. But I am still pulling heavy every week up until the Arnold lol!

Semper Fi

Travis Bell
11-20-2008, 10:26 PM
What makes this board a bit different from others is that guys like Travis and I have a difference of opinion, and one day later will pm each other for training advice or other friendly inquiries.

Agreed. We're all friends here :)

You're a good guy Brent. I look forward to seeing you compete this year at the AC

Travis Bell
11-20-2008, 10:36 PM
I haven't done a conventional deadlift in a while, but clean/snatch pulls(fairly different motion) and RDLs I think more than make up for the fact.

I think that most people who don't do them don't have an argument on the issue. Only if the deadlift would actually injure your ability in a sport due to changing muscle recruitment or something similar should they not be included.


Don't you sorta contradict yourself here a bit?

At first you said deads aren't important to being strong (which certainly would be "against the grain" and then you say that you feel that people should only exclude them if they have a good excuse

just trying to understand

Also, RDL's are still deadlifts btw

Cricket_Fire
11-20-2008, 11:51 PM
Awsome thread! Love it when 2 people who actually know their **** argue; so much to learn!

JHarris
11-21-2008, 08:39 AM
Don't you sorta contradict yourself here a bit?

At first you said deads aren't important to being strong (which certainly would be "against the grain" and then you say that you feel that people should only exclude them if they have a good excuse

just trying to understand

Also, RDL's are still deadlifts btw

That's fair. I guess my point is that you can get away without doing them, but only in very specific situations. I think you can be strong without them, but you have to go to some big lengths to make up for them.

And on RDL's - it really depends on how you are doing them. The RDLs done for Olympic lifting are a farcry from a real deadlift as they are really designed to mimic the pull in that range there.

Big o Boy
11-21-2008, 11:36 AM
I declare manlaw... Any lift with the name deadlift in it, should be henceforth considered a deadlift. ;)

PRHunter
11-21-2008, 02:04 PM
I think this discussion got slightly off track because I believe the initial question was about training for sports other than powerlifting. I should preface this by saying that I love the deadlift, it is my favorite powerlift, and I train it heavy quite often, pulling over triple bw off the floor almost every week. With that said, I really don't think it is the best lift for most athletes--especially in the 1rm range. I truly believe power cleans, power snatches, hang cleans, and the like have better carry over for most athletic activities. Plus, it is hard to train for most sports when your erectors are sore for 4 days from maxing out in the deadlift. When athletes ask me for training advice, I usually have them focus on olympic lifts and clean pulls as opposed to ugly, rounded back max effort deads. I was a DI football player "back in the day", so I have been around athletes for most of my life. Damn, I cant believe I wrote this long of a response.


I know the answer guys.:)

Need some good and honest feedback here.I had a kid show up today(1st day)that has the attitude that deadlifts are not good for you and only hurt your back.Were talking a kid that is involved in football and basketball.You suppose the deadlift could help him a little in these sports?

Ryan Hale

Travis Bell
11-21-2008, 03:16 PM
Actually I'd say deadlifts should be second in importance to squatting. Building up your core (especially for football players) is essential. Injury prevention as well as increasing the power of your core.

To be honest, it'd probably be bench press that is the lowest on the list for athletes

Travis Bell
11-21-2008, 03:17 PM
Hey Travis,

So when you guys pull now, whether lighter for speed or heavy, do you do it after squatting/main exercise on ME day, or do you do it after squatting on your speed lower day? Or does it differ depending on the weight being used? I'm just trying to work it out because I'm basically training myself now and I need to get working on my DL, it lags far behind my squat at the moment.
Thanks man.

You could do it on either. Your choice