PDA

View Full Version : Over training more myth than reality?



JasonLift
12-05-2008, 08:22 PM
We all know over training does exist and can hinder your progress, hence deloading phases and such. But I think in the commercialization of lifting and to appeal to Joe sixpack people the concept of over training has become bloated and distorted.

There is a reason why you can go on Craigslist and almost every piece of exercise equipment is listed as "like new condition". Most people are lazy and want the easy way out. Most of these exercise guru's recognize this and to appeal to the people who will buy there books they have to make working out appear easy.

I have seen some experts say anything more than working out 3 days a week will cause over training. I read Joe Weiders training book, and during his "power and bulk" phase he recommended 3 workouts a week and absolutely no physical activity any other time. More than that would be over training.

Its kind of funny that most pro athletes train sometimes several hours a day, most days of the week. Of course many people will attribute this to steroids and genetics. I attribute it to hard work and desire to be great.

I was never naturally strong, and certainly on the short end of the athletic stick. I train 7 days a week on top of working a physically demanding job (utility lineman). I am not a great lifter, but I will be one day.

Most of the time I hear about over training it is used as an excuse to not work hard enough rather than working too hard. Just a dumb rant by a nobody.

HP666
12-05-2008, 08:49 PM
It's all about adaptation.

BigTallOx
12-05-2008, 09:16 PM
Being over 40, I tend to error on the side of under training than overtraining. Overtraining *is* real and can lead to some real problems for older guys.

RhodeHouse
12-06-2008, 01:34 AM
It's a myth. Eat and sleep more. Overtraining is a catchphrase for those that need an excuse for why they suck. No one pushes themselves hard enough to truly overtrain.

elitepler
12-06-2008, 03:16 AM
It's a myth. Eat and sleep more. Overtraining is a catchphrase for those that need an excuse for why they suck. No one pushes themselves hard enough to truly overtrain.

In a perfect world you MIGHT be able to eat and sleep enough, but in the real world, overtraining can be a real problem. Although I agree most do not push themselves enough to really know what it is.

You have been a high level college football player and coach, I have been to special operations schools in the military, we both know you can push others and yourself beyond what you can recover from with normal eating and sleeping patterns.

Kiknskreem
12-06-2008, 08:01 AM
It's a myth. Eat and sleep more.

I disagree.

I think a bigger myth is that recovery processes are [absolutely] rate limited by the amount of food and sleep we get.

Things like neurologic and endocrine function... they can only adapt so fast and simply pouring infinitie amounts of food and sleep into a person is not going to increase that pace.

I agree that many are not realizing full potential because their diet and recovery factors are sub-optimal, but not that those are the be all, end all factors which limit recovery.

BigTallOx
12-06-2008, 08:27 AM
No one pushes themselves hard enough to truly overtrain.

And you know *everybody* and how they train. Whatever.


I disagree.
I think a bigger myth is that recovery processes are [absolutely] rate limited by the amount of food and sleep we get.

Things like neurologic and endocrine function... they can only adapt so fast and simply pouring infinitie amounts of food and sleep into a person is not going to increase that pace.


Yup.

Bruteman
12-06-2008, 08:53 AM
I agree with almost everything that's been said. I think the problem is some of you/us let our thinking swing too far to one side, or the other, of the "argument". Eating and sleeping more does help a lot, but is hardly the end all answer. Plenty of elite athletes still manage to over train and all they have to do is eat, sleep and train. Over training is a big way for people to be lazy also. The body can adapt to a crap load of work. I'm just a joe shmoe and I run 3 days a week, box 5 and lift 3, on top of my physical job. I'm not just going through the motions either. I'm training my ass off cause I'd like to compete as a fighter and powerlifter. I think the problem on this end of the argument is a lot of people try to undertake too much at once and then do actually over train. Someone off the street can't just jump in and start doing what I do. You have to build up to it, and most people don't know how, or have the patience, to do that.

LionLord
12-06-2008, 10:29 AM
desire to be great.

Ahhh, of course. It's what everybody wants.

Brad08
12-06-2008, 10:59 AM
I disagree.

I think a bigger myth is that recovery processes are [absolutely] rate limited by the amount of food and sleep we get.

Things like neurologic and endocrine function... they can only adapt so fast and simply pouring infinitie amounts of food and sleep into a person is not going to increase that pace.

I agree that many are not realizing full potential because their diet and recovery factors are sub-optimal, but not that those are the be all, end all factors which limit recovery.

LoL

You should write a book, kid.

RhodeHouse
12-06-2008, 12:37 PM
In a perfect world you MIGHT be able to eat and sleep enough, but in the real world, overtraining can be a real problem. Although I agree most do not push themselves enough to really know what it is.

You have been a high level college football player and coach, I have been to special operations schools in the military, we both know you can push others and yourself beyond what you can recover from with normal eating and sleeping patterns.

MOST people do not push themselves enough, especially young kids. So, it's a myth. Lifting weights is nothing like the military or college athletics.

RhodeHouse
12-06-2008, 12:39 PM
I disagree.

I think a bigger myth is that recovery processes are [absolutely] rate limited by the amount of food and sleep we get.

Things like neurologic and endocrine function... they can only adapt so fast and simply pouring infinitie amounts of food and sleep into a person is not going to increase that pace.

I agree that many are not realizing full potential because their diet and recovery factors are sub-optimal, but not that those are the be all, end all factors which limit recovery.

Great, so you can use the top 1% for your argumnet. On this site, most have no worries of overtraining, ever. Including myself.

RhodeHouse
12-06-2008, 12:43 PM
And you know *everybody* and how they train. Whatever.



Yup.

If you took offense to my statement, it's probably true. Don't project onto me. I warm up with your maxes and I don't even come close to overtraining.

Overtraining is like the gentics arguement. It's so far off that it's not a valid reason for success/failure. Like it or not, overtraining is a buzzword. It gives people excuses.

CrazyK
12-06-2008, 12:52 PM
I'm going to agree with Rhodes here. There has only been one time in my life where I've ever truly overtrained. Overreaching is however more common.

AdamBAG
12-06-2008, 04:05 PM
The problem with "overtraining" is that everyone worries about it too damn much. It is real? Yes. But don't use it as a crutch. Chances are that most people that think they are "overtrained" are just mentally soft. If you start missing lifts and feel like ass take a couple days completely off.

JasonLift
12-06-2008, 04:11 PM
The problem with "overtraining" is that everyone worries about it too damn much. It is real? Yes. But don't use it as a crutch. Chances are that most people that think they are "overtrained" are just mentally soft. If you start missing lifts and feel like ass take a couple days completely off.

That is exactly what I was trying to say. I never meant to imply it did not exist but by far the vast majority of people do not even have the gpp to over train.

BigTallOx
12-06-2008, 04:47 PM
I warm up with your maxes and I don't even come close to overtraining.


I figured something like this is what you're were getting at. You're a jerk.

I bet I move the weight twice as far as you, which significantly adds to the amount of work I do.

Ryano
12-06-2008, 04:55 PM
You guys that think you can't get overtrained must be lifting only in non-tested meets. If your jacked that will definately help you. Not that I care what you do, but when the weights feel heavier & heavier for a couple of weeks in a row, I know it's time to back off a little. Is that decline caused by overtraining? I guess that depends on what you call it. I call it overtraining. I'm 53 years old and try to hit the gym 5 days/week. Sometimes I can feel that I'm gettin' beat down to much, so I back off. That's overtraining IMO.

JasonLift
12-06-2008, 05:35 PM
Most the guys asking for advice are in their 20s not 40s or 50s and not 6'8. This was never meant to be a knock on anyone in particular but more so those trying to prey off people with their money and promote weird programs and convincing younger lifters that training more than a little bit is counter productive so they can appeal to lazy slobs who want to look like Arnold while working out 3 times a week for 20 minutes. Most of the guys asking for advice on this forum are under training and not eating enough for fear of over training when they should be hitting the food and working there butts off to improve. Bigox I am 6'3 so not as tall as you but I know what its like to try to lift with long limbs its harder on us and add age to that and it makes it more difficult. That being said its no excuse to be an elite lifter.

Everyone here should have one goal, to move as much weight as possible. Rhodes is sometimes brutally honest but he does what we want to do and we can learn from him and others like him.

deeder
12-06-2008, 05:52 PM
I warm up with your maxes and I don't even come close to overtraining.


I figured something like this is what you're were getting at. You're a jerk.

I bet I move the weight twice as far as you, which significantly adds to the amount of work I do.


Don't worry BTO, Rhodes had penis envy. It's actually more of an "inny" than an "outtie" these days.

Rhodes, if you took offense to this, it's probably true. Stop projecting and do something about it.



As for my answer. Overtraining is very real and you need to plan your diet, rest and recovery accordingly.

Rhodes, aren't you training 3 days a week right now? I guess when you can say whatever the **** you want on the internet that 3 day a week program must turn in to 17 training sessions a week and 3 midget throwing practices. Ever tried a 5, 6 or 7 day a week program? If you did, maybe you felt worn down, tired or even lost some strength... Guess what? Overtraining!

Hazerboy
12-06-2008, 05:58 PM
I'm going to go on ahead and post this cause I'm procrastinating, and I'd really rather make a long post than keep studying.


It's a myth. Eat and sleep more. Overtraining is a catchphrase for those that need an excuse for why they suck. No one pushes themselves hard enough to truly overtrain.

When I read this, I knew what you meant, before you elaborated on it later: For most people, over training is a myth... The average guy doesn't push himself enough, so for him overtraining is an excuse.

Sometimes when I read your posts, I notice that you tend to generalize and put out really definitive statements. This is just your style, its gets the point across even if there are exceptions. I think people who've read your posts realize this. From what I've read, usually you realize that there exceptions, like when you said:

"MOST people do not push themselves enough, especially young kids. So, it's a myth. Lifting weights is nothing like the military or college athletics."

But not everyone realizes that what you're doing when you put out really definitive statement just to get your point across. I think this is what OX was reacting to when he said:

"And you know *everybody* and how they train. Whatever."


But then you come back and say something like "I warm up with your maxes."

Come on man, thats just douschy. Its stuff like this that makes me question why you try and help people on this board. Are you sponsored by atlarge or something, and they just require you to post on these boards? Do you just like putting people down? If thats why your here, and this is the attitude you're going to give to people, I'd say keep your advice to yourself.

But I don't think thats why your here at all. I think you generally want to help some of these guys get stronger, give back to the iron game. I've read your articles on elite fts, gone through your journals, and listened to your advice. I have mad respect for the weights you put up and your experience in the iron game, so I try and take all of your advice with high regard. There are few places you can go and speak and get advice with people who are at the top of their sport, so I don't take this for granted. I try and hold this attitude with everyone I speak with here.

That being said I've never understood why you have to be a straight out dick to some people. I'm not just talking about this situation here, I'm talking about on this forum in general. If you really are here to help people, "give back to the game," whats the point in being an *******? Why do you even post here if all the time it seems like posters are such a drain to you? There are all sorts of strong dudes on here that give advice and help other lifters, but they don't put forth your kind of attitude--Travis bell, Mike Wolfe, Ryan Celli, Elite Pl, Eric 23. Hell, even Vincent Dizenzo doesn't really give out your attitude when giving people advice.

You might say that thats just your style, tell me "tough luck" or call me a pussy for complaining. Thats fine with me, I'll still take your advice and still respect you as a lifter. You've been a dick to me once or twice on this forum awhile back, and I don't give a damn, doesn't bother me, cause you give out solid information thats worth hearing. You could tell me to f-off, that I've never worked as hard as you or accomplished what you have, that I'm just some little **** under 200 lbs pussy who will never amount to anything in lifting. I'll sit, look back at your numbers, then listen to whatever other advice you have to say, because I know your advice is worth hearing. I don't let that crap put me off. But if your being here is truly to help people, then being a dick is counterproductive to that. Not everyone can just put that stuff off. It pisses a lot of people off, and they won't listen to what you have to say.

I know where you come from this isn't the attitude. I've never been to southside, but I'm sure you guys are complete *******s to each other all the time, that none of you would ever listen to my crap. Its different there, the point is to get people stronger, to motivate each other. You don't wanna here this, but that same attitude here doesn't work, it just ticks people off. You might say that you just don't wanna help people that get pissed off by your attitude, "forget those pussies" or something like that. to that, I say what the hell's the point in helping anybody at all?

Fuzzy
12-06-2008, 06:02 PM
It's a myth. Eat and sleep more. Overtraining is a catchphrase for those that need an excuse for why they suck. No one pushes themselves hard enough to truly overtrain.

Agreed. Even the most dedicated can;t do it. Your body won't let you.

However... an experienced coach may push you to do it if they knew how to structure a program to minimize injury risk and have you rebound from it.

I have seen way too many strong guys lift everyday, often twice a day at 90% of their max to even think people can overtrain. It is all about adaptation.

Sure after 2 weeks of heavy double days I felt like a molested school girl.... but I recovered fast from it and had immense gains.

Simply put , push yourself as hard as possible cause you simply can't over push yourself.

jbrin0tk
12-06-2008, 06:26 PM
I figured something like this is what you're were getting at. You're a jerk.

I bet I move the weight twice as far as you, which significantly adds to the amount of work I do.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but Rhodes is 6'4, I believe. Not as tall as you, but he's still got a long way to go, too.

joey54
12-06-2008, 06:41 PM
Many years ago my buddy and I went on a rant about a disease we saw developing among younger lifters called "overtrainaphobia". That was an amusing thread on another board. Don't know if Daniel remembers that or not. Anyway, this has been an enteraining one to read as well.

deeder
12-06-2008, 06:50 PM
Agreed. Even the most dedicated can;t do it. Your body won't let you.

However... an experienced coach may push you to do it if they knew how to structure a program to minimize injury risk and have you rebound from it.

I have seen way too many strong guys lift everyday, often twice a day at 90% of their max to even think people can overtrain. It is all about adaptation.

Sure after 2 weeks of heavy double days I felt like a molested school girl.... but I recovered fast from it and had immense gains.

Simply put , push yourself as hard as possible cause you simply can't over push yourself.

In your case fuzzy, your coach won't let you do it. What would have happened if you continued doing heavy double days for 4 weeks? 6 weeks? 8 weeks? There's a reason you only did it for 2 weeks.

Insomnia, loss of appetite, loss of strength, frequent 'tweaks' and minor injuries, fast weight loss or gain with no change in diet.. These are all signs of overtraining that I have experienced personally. We don't all the luxury of being 16 with a great coach or being so full of various drugs that it doesn't matter what we do in the gym.

JasonLift
12-06-2008, 06:51 PM
I am kind of sorry it is getting respected board members arguing with each other. People like deeder, bigox, and rhodes train hard and weren't the ones this post was directed too, and I appreciate everyones opinion and experience.

Invain
12-06-2008, 06:52 PM
Don't worry BTO, Rhodes had penis envy. It's actually more of an "inny" than an "outtie" these days.

Rhodes, if you took offense to this, it's probably true. Stop projecting and do something about it.



As for my answer. Overtraining is very real and you need to plan your diet, rest and recovery accordingly.

Rhodes, aren't you training 3 days a week right now? I guess when you can say whatever the **** you want on the internet that 3 day a week program must turn in to 17 training sessions a week and 3 midget throwing practices. Ever tried a 5, 6 or 7 day a week program? If you did, maybe you felt worn down, tired or even lost some strength... Guess what? Overtraining!

An inny. Makes perfect sense now.

Rhodes you can't honestly tell us you're never overtrained yourself? Sure most average joe's will never have to worry about overtraining, but you forget this is the powerlifting forum on wbb.com. If you're serious enough about lifting overtraining is definitely a possibility. We can only recover so fast, no matter how much freaking food and sleep we get.

Based on your logic I can start deadlifting 4 times a week though right? Just eat more McDonalds? Sweet!

Reko
12-06-2008, 06:56 PM
I disagree.

I think a bigger myth is that recovery processes are [absolutely] rate limited by the amount of food and sleep we get.

Things like neurologic and endocrine function... they can only adapt so fast and simply pouring infinitie amounts of food and sleep into a person is not going to increase that pace.

I agree that many are not realizing full potential because their diet and recovery factors are sub-optimal, but not that those are the be all, end all factors which limit recovery.

But you can always change the way you train though. Instead of hitting ME work all the time, switch to dE work, or hit some medium level reps, or do conditioning work or something. It will still help in the over all goal of whatever you are doing but you by no means have to stop training.

Auburn
12-06-2008, 07:12 PM
You've got overreaching, and then overtraining. No OTS research has been done in a controlled environment that I'm aware of. It probably exists, but like others have mentioned, the vast majority of trainees won't experience it. It would ridiculous amounts of exercise past the body's ability to adapt to do it. Usually only elite athletes would do that much exercise over the long term. Thankfully, a lot of elite athletes use substances that significantly aid recovery. So, while a lot of people will overreach from time to time, they really never overtrain. From a paper discussing Smith's Cytokine Theory of Overtraining:


Theoretically, OTS is viewed as the third stage of Selye's general adaptation syndrome, with the focus being on recovery/survival, and not adaptation, and is deemed to be "protective," occurring in response to excessive physical/physiological stress.

deeder
12-06-2008, 07:32 PM
I am kind of sorry it is getting respected board members arguing with each other. People like deeder, bigox, and rhodes train hard and weren't the ones this post was directed too, and I appreciate everyones opinion and experience.

Don't worry.. I'm not arguing... Just feeding the trolls. :ninja::hello:

Ben Moore
12-06-2008, 08:21 PM
Have any of you ever thought that the worry of overtraining is holding you back from getting to that next level? Have you thought that maybe if you just lifted, ate and slept you might get that number you've been chasing?

WillNoble
12-06-2008, 08:30 PM
Have any of you ever thought that the worry of overtraining is holding you back from getting to that next level? Have you thought that maybe if you just lifted, ate and slept you might get that number you've been chasing?

What a novel concept...

I don't think its fear of over training, more as its vaginal pain in several folks...

Invain
12-06-2008, 08:32 PM
I'm sure that's the case for many Ben. However, what about those that don't worry about overtraining and go over-board, either effectively overtraining in the end or injuring themselves. I love lifting, it's addicting as hell. If I could lift weights every single day I would. Without drugs however, you can only push yourself so far.

Reko
12-06-2008, 08:34 PM
I'm sure that's the case for many Ben. However, what about those that don't worry about overtraining and go over-board, either effectively overtraining in the end or injuring themselves. I love lifting, it's addicting as hell. If I could lift weights every single day I would. Without drugs however, you can only push yourself so far.

Not training smart, and over training are completely different.

deeder
12-06-2008, 08:36 PM
Have any of you ever thought that the worry of overtraining is holding you back from getting to that next level? Have you thought that maybe if you just lifted, ate and slept you might get that number you've been chasing?


What a novel concept...

I don't think its fear of over training, more as its vaginal pain in several folks...

Nope, my fear of overtraining has helped me develop smarter training programs. I know it might go against the "UGH. ME LIFT." mentality but often training smarter is better than training harder.

I think you should go tell some pro NHL coaches that there's no such thing as overtraining and that their players should skate 12 hours a day at least. They would laugh in your face.

Hell, many of you are Westside proponents... Tell Louie that you're going to train everyday alternating ME and DE oh and on the weekends you'll do ME and DE on the same day since you have more time to be in the gym. My guess, he'd tell you it's too much. Amazingly it wouldn't be because you're a little bitch, it would be because you would overtrain. :omg:

deeder
12-06-2008, 08:37 PM
Not training smart, and over training are completely different.

Really? How?

So what you're saying is that as long as you train smart and don't overtrain... Overtraining doesn't exist?

Invain
12-06-2008, 08:38 PM
Not training smart, and over training are completely different.

You're absolutely right. How do you define overtraining then? You can still train smart and overtain.

WillNoble
12-06-2008, 08:40 PM
Really? How?

So what you're saying is that as long as you train smart and don't overtrain... Overtraining doesn't exist?

No it means dont be a f***ing dumbass and train stupidly... should you train ME 6 days a week, of course not

If you follow a precisely laid out program are you going to overtrain, almost certainly not

Moral of the story: Get your head out of your ass and train right, and you wont be here bitching on /wbb/ about overtraining

Reko
12-06-2008, 08:43 PM
You're absolutely right. How do you define overtraining then? You can still train smart and overtain.

How?

Reko
12-06-2008, 08:45 PM
I think you should go tell some pro NHL coaches that there's no such thing as overtraining and that their players should skate 12 hours a day at least. They would laugh in your face.


Better idea... go tell that to the olympic athletes who have everything dialed in for their training.

deeder
12-06-2008, 08:49 PM
Better idea... go tell that to the olympic athletes who have everything dialed in for their training.

You mean the olympic athletes who have taken years to build up to the level of volume that they are currently are at? The olympic athletes who probably have better genetics than you or I could ever dream of?

Oh, ok, those olympic athletes.

deeder
12-06-2008, 08:49 PM
No it means dont be a f***ing dumbass and train stupidly... should you train ME 6 days a week, of course not

If you follow a precisely laid out program are you going to overtrain, almost certainly not

Moral of the story: Get your head out of your ass and train right, and you wont be here bitching on /wbb/ about overtraining

And what happens if you train ME 6 days a week?

We're SO close to a logical conclusion here folks! I can almost feel it!

WillNoble
12-06-2008, 08:50 PM
I bet I move the weight twice as far as you, which significantly adds to the amount of work I do.

Just wanted to point out the dumbest post in the thread...

deeder
12-06-2008, 08:50 PM
Just wanted to point out the dumbest post in the thread...

Me too :hello:

WillNoble
12-06-2008, 08:50 PM
And what happens if you train ME 6 days a week?



you're a f***head and deserve to blow out your patellar tendon

Invain
12-06-2008, 08:50 PM
How?

You just said they're two different things yourself. Do you know how your body will respond to every workout? Do we always recover at the exact same speed? You're never going to have a 100% exact workout routine that pushes your body to the absolute limit.

Reko
12-06-2008, 08:52 PM
You mean the olympic athletes who have taken years to build up to the level of volume that they are currently are at? The olympic athletes who probably have better genetics than you or I could ever dream of?

Oh, ok, those olympic athletes.

So the argument changes now?

Genetics doesn't make you, the work you put in does. They've got genetics that will help them have better leverages, or giv them good ratio of muscle fibers (if that even is part of the deal). Bu regardless, they still have to train their balls off to get there, the kind of training some would say is "overtraining."

Do I think it exists? Sure.
Do I think it is something people have to worry about when training for PL or sports or whatever? No.

Benching ME every day will not yield you good results, because it is ******ed to do so, NOT because of "overtraining" as described by people who say they are over training.

deeder
12-06-2008, 08:52 PM
you're a f***head and deserve to blow out your patellar tendon

Damn we lost it.. It was so close. We're back to:

"UGH! ME LIFT HEAVY!"

WillNoble
12-06-2008, 08:52 PM
I pose a question, whom on this board feels they are overtrained?

Reko
12-06-2008, 08:53 PM
You just said they're two different things yourself. Do you know how your body will respond to every workout? Do we always recover at the exact same speed? You're never going to have a 100% exact workout routine that pushes your body to the absolute limit.


Benching ME every day will not yield you good results, because it is ******ed to do so, NOT because of "overtraining" as described by people who say they are over training.

That is the difference.

deeder
12-06-2008, 08:56 PM
So the argument changes now?

Genetics doesn't make you, the work you put in does. They've got genetics that will help them have better leverages, or giv them good ratio of muscle fibers (if that even is part of the deal). Bu regardless, they still have to train their balls off to get there, the kind of training some would say is "overtraining."

Do I think it exists? Sure.
Do I think it is something people have to worry about when training for PL or sports or whatever? No.

Benching ME every day will not yield you good results, because it is ******ed to do so, NOT because of "overtraining" as described by people who say they are over training.

Overtraining is a highly personal thing. What you do might be overtraining for me and what I do may be overtraining for a complete beginner. Yes, of course you can build up your tolerance to more work, more volume, more frequency but getting to the level of an olympic athlete who trains several times a day takes more than just an iron will. It takes very smart coaches and incredible dedication to diet and recovery methods.

I almost forgot to ask, why is it ****ed to ME bench everyday? If overtraining doesn't exist, isn't more better?


I pose a question, whom on this board feels they are overtrained?

Right now, no. I have however, felt extremely overtrained at times. This is usually when there is more stress in my life because of school, work, family, whatever.

Auburn
12-06-2008, 08:57 PM
I pose a question, whom on this board feels they are overtrained?

If anyone actually has OTS, they don't feel it, they should ****ing know it. Because ****s ****ed up at that point.

If your heart rate isn't constantly elevated, libido shut down, and depression hasn't set it, you're just tired, not overtrained.

Invain
12-06-2008, 08:58 PM
I pose a question, whom on this board feels they are overtrained?

Not me, but I have in the past. Sure, I wasn't training "smart", but it still happened.

How often do you lift Will? Have you ever actually pushed yourself hard enough to know what overtraining feels like? Honest question btw.

Reko
12-06-2008, 08:59 PM
Not me, but I have in the past. Sure, I wasn't training "smart", but it still happened.

How often do you lift Will? Have you ever actually pushed yourself hard enough to know what overtraining feels like? Honest question btw.

Oh no....

Invain
12-06-2008, 08:59 PM
Oh no....

I'm being serious. Deeder mentioned something about Rhodes training 3 days a week, I'm just curious as to what others' training schedules look like.

Reko
12-06-2008, 09:03 PM
I almost forgot to ask, why is it ****ed to ME bench everyday? If overtraining doesn't exist, isn't more better?


Because it isnt smart training. You cycle your training to have DE/RE/ME methods, conditioning work, recovery work, and active rest days so they all have part of a role in the growing/strengthening process. Not incorporating those in favor of ME benching everyday is not smart training

Done too often, muscles will tear, or weight will just feel damned heavy. I've been there before as most on this board have. Stuff just doesn't go like it should. So what do you do, cry overtraining? No. You back off and change the training, either incorporate more speed work, more conditioning, change the load, change the lift, or say **** it and go get piss drunk (I'd say sarcasm, but that isn't the case lol). Point is you don't stop training or become overtrained because you miss a lift or two, you just change the angle of attack, THAT is smart training.

WillNoble
12-06-2008, 09:04 PM
Not me, but I have in the past. Sure, I wasn't training "smart", but it still happened.

How often do you lift Will? Have you ever actually pushed yourself hard enough to know what overtraining feels like? Honest question btw.

Yes, I have felt negative effects of training (fatigue, soreness, tiredness) most of which resulted from 3-a-day practices in college football coupled with 4 day a week training under Jim Wendler, Kev Deweese, and JL Holdsworth. Was I tired and sore...yes

was I overtrained...no

I got better because I learned to work thru the soreness and the pain, I got bigger, faster, and stronger because I had to man up and push thru it.

Matt Rhodes knows that pain, he played D1 football as well. Reko knows it well too, he was a collegiate hockey player. They thrived in that pain because it made them better.

They didn't piss and moan on a message board about a percieved notion of overtraining, something that you will NEVER do at your little college gym 4-6 nights a week...

Reko
12-06-2008, 09:05 PM
If anyone actually has OTS, they don't feel it, they should ****ing know it. Because ****s ****ed up at that point.

If your heart rate isn't constantly elevated, libido shut down, and depression hasn't set it, you're just tired, not overtrained.

That has been my general understanding of "overtraining," its something like several months off for recovery from it.

Invain
12-06-2008, 09:12 PM
Yes, I have felt negative effects of training (fatigue, soreness, tiredness) most of which resulted from 3-a-day practices in college football coupled with 4 day a week training under Jim Wendler, Kev Deweese, and JL Holdsworth. Was I tired and sore...yes

was I overtrained...no

I got better because I learned to work thru the soreness and the pain, I got bigger, faster, and stronger because I had to man up and push thru it.

Matt Rhodes knows that pain, he played D1 football as well. Reko knows it well too, he was a collegiate hockey player. They thrived in that pain because it made them better.

They didn't piss and moan on a message board about a percieved notion of overtraining, something that you will EVER do at your little college gym 4-6 nights a week...

So having a lively discussion is pissing and moaning to you huh? Honestly Will, is it impossible for you to go a whole thread without insulting me? My "little college gym" has the same equipment any gym you've trained in has. I gurantee you I bust my ass just as much as you do. You seem to have an ego because you played football in college. This thread isn't about being tired from football or hockey practice, it's about overtraining via weight lifting.

WillNoble
12-06-2008, 09:14 PM
So having a lively discussion is pissing and moaning to you huh? Honestly Will, is it impossible for you to go a whole thread without insulting me? My "little college gym" has the same equipment any gym you've trained in has. I gurantee you I bust my ass just as much as you do. You seem to have an ego because you played football in college. This thread isn't about being tired from football or hockey practice, it's about overtraining via weight lifting.

No I have no ego about football, I have ego about children who come on here and disrespect people who are far better, smarter and stronger than them (i.e. Rhodes)

You want to come work hard, feel free to come to 1-0-7 anytime and we'll put you thru the paces.

Yes Im proud I played ball, and unless you did at that level you have NO IDEA what it takes and what you go thru to succeed...period

WillNoble
12-06-2008, 09:17 PM
My "little college gym" has the same equipment any gym you've trained in has.

I kinda doubt that...

KarstenDD
12-06-2008, 09:26 PM
you're a f***head and deserve to blow out your patellar tendon

Hey. Cool it.

Invain
12-06-2008, 09:26 PM
No I have no ego about football, I have ego about children who come on here and disrespect people who are far better, smarter and stronger than them (i.e. Rhodes)


Hahahahah!

WillNoble
12-06-2008, 09:28 PM
Hey. Cool it.

awwww sorry Karsten, Much <3's

KarstenDD
12-06-2008, 09:30 PM
I bet I move the weight twice as far as you, which significantly adds to the amount of work I do.


Just wanted to point out the dumbest post in the thread...


Me too :hello:


No, seriously, a 6'8 guy saying he moves the weight significantly further than a 6'4 guy with Marfan's? It's just a dumb comment.

KarstenDD
12-06-2008, 09:36 PM
For all of the guys who don't get the difference between idiottraining and overtraining, I point you to my favorite example of anything ever, Chad Aichs. The Chad doesn't sleep. The Chad has Compartment Syndrome. He also is one of the strongest powerlifters in the world. He says that he wants to go heavy all the time. But he doesn't. He trains as hard as he can and still recover. This is known as training smart. If he didn't do this he would be an idiot. In summation, I <3 Chad Aichs.

WillNoble
12-06-2008, 09:39 PM
In summation, I <3 Chad Aichs.


I shudder at the visual....

Reko
12-06-2008, 09:39 PM
I shudder at the visual....

Oh god.... you just gave me the visual!

KarstenDD
12-06-2008, 09:41 PM
Hahahahah!

Rhodes is a dick sometimes. When you're right as often as him, you can be a dick too. Until then you should really listen to the people who know what they are talking about.

KarstenDD
12-06-2008, 09:43 PM
I'm being serious. Deeder mentioned something about Rhodes training 3 days a week, I'm just curious as to what others' training schedules look like.

As for Rhodes training 3 days a week, he did that mainly due to his work schedule. He trains 4 days a week now.

KarstenDD
12-06-2008, 09:45 PM
I shudder at the visual....


Oh god.... you just gave me the visual!

Jealous much?

WillNoble
12-06-2008, 09:46 PM
Jealous much?

maybe...



I know Reko is, he's just now getting over his bear-crush on Rhodes...

Ben Moore
12-06-2008, 10:08 PM
I feel drunk, but not overtrained...

RhodeHouse
12-06-2008, 10:50 PM
I figured something like this is what you're were getting at. You're a jerk.

I bet I move the weight twice as far as you, which significantly adds to the amount of work I do.

No, I'm 6'4", so it's about 4' further than me. My point was that the amount of weight lifted makes a huge difference in how beat up you get. When I was lifting your weights, I didn't feel as banged up after training. Now, I feel like I got hit by a truck. 500lbs just doesn't beat you up as much as 800lbs, no matter your strength level.

Jerk or not, I'm right.

RhodeHouse
12-06-2008, 10:53 PM
You guys that think you can't get overtrained must be lifting only in non-tested meets. If your jacked that will definately help you. Not that I care what you do, but when the weights feel heavier & heavier for a couple of weeks in a row, I know it's time to back off a little. Is that decline caused by overtraining? I guess that depends on what you call it. I call it overtraining. I'm 53 years old and try to hit the gym 5 days/week. Sometimes I can feel that I'm gettin' beat down to much, so I back off. That's overtraining IMO.

I do the same thing you do. I look at it as beating overtraining. Overtraining has some pretty severe side effects involved with it. Backing off is knowing when it's time and listening to your body.

RhodeHouse
12-06-2008, 11:00 PM
Don't worry BTO, Rhodes had penis envy. It's actually more of an "inny" than an "outtie" these days.

Rhodes, if you took offense to this, it's probably true. Stop projecting and do something about it.



As for my answer. Overtraining is very real and you need to plan your diet, rest and recovery accordingly.

Rhodes, aren't you training 3 days a week right now? I guess when you can say whatever the **** you want on the internet that 3 day a week program must turn in to 17 training sessions a week and 3 midget throwing practices. Ever tried a 5, 6 or 7 day a week program? If you did, maybe you felt worn down, tired or even lost some strength... Guess what? Overtraining!


1. I do have penis envy. That's why I drive a big truck
2. It is an inny
3. I'm trying Enzyte
4. For someone that hates me so much, you're sure do know my training schedule. Can you say, "Man Crush"?

Actually, I'm training 4 days, now. Why would I train mnore than I have to? That's just plain stupid. I can get the work I need to get done in 3 days. Now, I'm adding a 4th day so I get some more work for general conditioning. I can tell you, when you get to my strength level, you'll know when to back off and when to push it. Just because you're beat up, doesn't mean you're overtrained. It means if you keep pushing it, you'll get overtrained. But, the reality is, if you got more sleep, you'd probably be fine, for a while. Or, you can be a pussy and say you're overtrained. I'm still bigger and stronger than you, so I must know what I'm doing.

RhodeHouse
12-06-2008, 11:08 PM
Have any of you ever thought that the worry of overtraining is holding you back from getting to that next level? Have you thought that maybe if you just lifted, ate and slept you might get that number you've been chasing?

That's too easy, Ben. They need excuses.

RhodeHouse
12-06-2008, 11:10 PM
Nope, my fear of overtraining has helped me develop smarter training programs. I know it might go against the "UGH. ME LIFT." mentality but often training smarter is better than training harder.

I think you should go tell some pro NHL coaches that there's no such thing as overtraining and that their players should skate 12 hours a day at least. They would laugh in your face.

Hell, many of you are Westside proponents... Tell Louie that you're going to train everyday alternating ME and DE oh and on the weekends you'll do ME and DE on the same day since you have more time to be in the gym. My guess, he'd tell you it's too much. Amazingly it wouldn't be because you're a little bitch, it would be because you would overtrain. :omg:

Clearly, you have no clue how Louie used to train. He would do 3-4 workouts per day. Not full-blown workouts, but he was ALWAYS training. Know what you're talking about, please.

RhodeHouse
12-06-2008, 11:20 PM
I'm overtrained. I walked up the stairs to my room. I better not squat tomorrow for fear of exacerbating my OTS. Will, be nicer to people and send me some Vagisil. I'm now severely overtrained. Call 911! Does anyone have the number?

deeder
12-06-2008, 11:40 PM
Don't worry.. I'm not arguing... Just feeding the trolls. :ninja::hello:


No, I'm 6'4", so it's about 4' further than me. My point was that the amount of weight lifted makes a huge difference in how beat up you get. When I was lifting your weights, I didn't feel as banged up after training. Now, I feel like I got hit by a truck. 500lbs just doesn't beat you up as much as 800lbs, no matter your strength level.

Jerk or not, I'm right.


I do the same thing you do. I look at it as beating overtraining. Overtraining has some pretty severe side effects involved with it. Backing off is knowing when it's time and listening to your body.


1. I do have penis envy. That's why I drive a big truck
2. It is an inny
3. I'm trying Enzyte
4. For someone that hates me so much, you're sure do know my training schedule. Can you say, "Man Crush"?

Actually, I'm training 4 days, now. Why would I train mnore than I have to? That's just plain stupid. I can get the work I need to get done in 3 days. Now, I'm adding a 4th day so I get some more work for general conditioning. I can tell you, when you get to my strength level, you'll know when to back off and when to push it. Just because you're beat up, doesn't mean you're overtrained. It means if you keep pushing it, you'll get overtrained. But, the reality is, if you got more sleep, you'd probably be fine, for a while. Or, you can be a pussy and say you're overtrained. I'm still bigger and stronger than you, so I must know what I'm doing.


Now you're just splitting hairs and being a f@#$ing douche.


That's too easy, Ben. They need excuses.


Clearly, you have no clue how Louie used to train. He would do 3-4 workouts per day. Not full-blown workouts, but he was ALWAYS training. Know what you're talking about, please.


I'm overtrained. I walked up the stairs to my room. I better not squat tomorrow for fear of exacerbating my OTS. Will, be nicer to people and send me some Vagisil. I'm now severely overtrained. Call 911! Does anyone have the number?

'Nuff said.

WillNoble
12-06-2008, 11:44 PM
'Nuff said.



http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/unsuccessful_troll.jpg

KarstenDD
12-06-2008, 11:47 PM
We postin in a troll thread.

RhodeHouse
12-07-2008, 12:02 AM
'Nuff said.

Full Powerlifting
Squat - 562lbs -- 255kg -- April 12, '08 (Provincial Record @100kg class)
Bench - 363lbs -- 165kg -- April 12, '08 (@100kg class)
Dead - 562lbs -- 255kg -- April 12, '08 (@100kg class)
Bench Only -- 358lbs -- 162.5kg -- Nov. 25, '07 (Provincial Record @ 90kg class)
Bench Only -- 376lbs -- 171kg -- Jan. 26, '08 (Provincial Record @ 100kg class)


Matt Rhodes
Squat - 930lbs Nov '07 IPA Nationals - SHW (309lbs)
Bench - 560lbs (pathetic) Feb '08 SSA Canday AZZ Classic - 308's (303lbs)
Deadlift - 755 (belt only) Feb '08 Candy AZZ Classic - 308's (303lbs)
Total - 2205 Nov '07 IPA Nationals - SHW (309lbs)

The 930 had me at 7th in the SHW's
The 755 tied me for 5th in the 308's
The 2205 had me at 9th in the SHW's

These rankings have changed since June and i'm unsure of what they are now. i know tone Barbaccio moved me from 9th to 10th in the total. I may have been knocked out sooner. Since my surgery and rehab, I haven't done a meet since February.

So, to quote you, "Nuff said."

deeder
12-07-2008, 12:07 AM
Full Powerlifting
Squat - 562lbs -- 255kg -- April 12, '08 (Provincial Record @100kg class)
Bench - 363lbs -- 165kg -- April 12, '08 (@100kg class)
Dead - 562lbs -- 255kg -- April 12, '08 (@100kg class)
Bench Only -- 358lbs -- 162.5kg -- Nov. 25, '07 (Provincial Record @ 90kg class)
Bench Only -- 376lbs -- 171kg -- Jan. 26, '08 (Provincial Record @ 100kg class)


Matt Rhodes
Squat - 930lbs Nov '07 IPA Nationals - SHW - 12 plys, 4" high (309lbs)
Bench - 560lbs (pathetic) Feb '08 SSA Canday AZZ Classic - 308's - no pause, belly bench (303lbs)
Deadlift - 755 (belt only) Feb '08 Candy AZZ Classic - 308's - knees didn't lock, hitched(303lbs)
Total - 2205 Nov '07 IPA Nationals - SHW (309lbs)

The 930 had me at 7th in the SHW's
The 755 tied me for 5th in the 308's
The 2205 had me at 9th in the SHW's

These rankings have changed since June and i'm unsure of what they are now. i know tone Barbaccio moved me from 9th to 10th in the total. I may have been knocked out sooner. Since my surgery and rehab, I haven't done a meet since February.

So, to quote you, "Nuff said."

Pretty impressive stats.

KarstenDD
12-07-2008, 12:13 AM
I'll just leave this here...

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/trollercoaster.jpg

Joe Black
12-07-2008, 05:51 AM
I'm gonna lock this one, just because I think enough has been discussed for people to make up their own mind on overtraining :)

Play nice people - whatever the topic, there is no need to resort to insults and if you do, you will be outta of here pretty fast.