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geoffsherman
12-17-2008, 07:34 PM
All,

I am currently training usig the 5/3/1 program. I lift without a squat suit, briefs, or wraps. I am finding that as I fatigue on the lower sets, I am really dying out of the hole and my form gets shot. My hips are moving faster than my back so I end up falling forward a bit and GMing the weight up. I switched over to the 5/3/1 program for a bit because I don't think I was getting enough work with heavier (i.e. 85%+ weights). I wanted to see if anyone had recommendations on how to work on this weak point. I had thought about something like pause/box squats since those exercises seem to really focus on those last few inches as you hit parallel. Thanks in advance for recommendations.

Lones Green
12-17-2008, 07:42 PM
strong hips will help a bunch out of the hole, and if you are falling forward you could have a low back weakness as well

geoffsherman
12-17-2008, 07:52 PM
strong hips will help a bunch out of the hole, and if you are falling forward you could have a low back weakness as well

Re: Strengthening the hips. How would you recommend bringing this up as a weakpoint?

Re: Low Back. I have been doing GMs,. but in Sheiko, they recommend working these at 50% of your Squat 1RM for 5 sets of 5. Should I be working with heavier weights? If so, what % and sets/reps have you found that work well?

Thanks for your input. Unfortunately, I am on my own where I live as powerlifting isn't big in my part of Arkansas so the Internet is my only source of coaching.

OneLiftOneKill
12-17-2008, 08:09 PM
What is your weight right now and bodyfat % (estimate)?

geoffsherman
12-17-2008, 08:20 PM
I am about 190 and I would guess 12-14% or so at 5-10.

OneLiftOneKill
12-17-2008, 08:36 PM
At 190 your going to have problems out of the hole for a while because gaining weight helped me a lot out of the hole. I have no idea what the 5/3/1 program is so I can't comment on that.

I can't stress how important it is to sit back enough. If you have very strong hips and hamstrings and sit back where your knees don't move then the hole should be the easy part.

Like lonesXedge said, you can be weak at the bottom if the weight feels so heavy on your back that it makes you fall forward. Parallel or higher box squats helps get a back strong fast for squatting. Try to incorporate that in a max effort type of way so your back really gets used to the heavy weight.

You don't even need too much hamstring and hip work if you perfect your form and start breaking parallel on squats focusing on not moving your knees forward and really getting the hips and hamstrings into the movement. I recommend actively concentrating on them hard until you get used to it where it becomes natural. Another tip is to make sure your core is very tight so you get a large amount of acceleration at the bottom. Doing squats with a dynamic effort every once in a while will also help with that acceleration from the bottom.

I would also heavily up your calories and try to pack on weight with healthy calories. High calorie cheat meals won't hurt a powerlifter too much, but you have to make sure you also get in some vitamin and mineral rich food.

Dingus
12-17-2008, 08:45 PM
It sounds like this is probably a technique thing, secondly my guess is you started your squat max too high, you say you switched over to the 5/3/1 method to lift heavier weights, that isn't really the goal of the program. Make sure your starting off with 90% of your max squat and basing your percentages off of that.

geoffsherman
12-17-2008, 08:50 PM
I did follow Wendler's advice and dropped my maxes 10% and used that as a starting point. I understand that at myheight, I would need to put on more weight if I ever wanted to compete, but that isn't on my radar for now as I have a lot of personal stuff going on. I am just looking to better address my weakpoints and any recommendations from folks are much appreciated.

RhodeHouse
12-17-2008, 10:04 PM
It's a form issue. You're getting loose in the hole and you're not pushing your abs out against your belt. There's a whole bunch of things to work on.

-Arch back hard especially as you get deeper in the hole
-More ab work
-Pull your elbows under the bar and don't let them flair back behind you
-Hold your breath until you finish the lift
-Don't bounce in the hole
-Drive your head into the bar and get your eyes up

Post video so we can see it better.

OneLiftOneKill
12-17-2008, 10:05 PM
So your saying all that is on your radar right now is average gains? Whether it is being low on money, not even having a job, or any other personal issues I can think of there is always a way to get the food in if you eat the right things. One example of something effective is whole milk.

You have to give lifting 100% or gains don't come or they come very slowly. 100% lifting dedication doesn't even take too much time compared to some other sports if you are smart about it.

Most people spend time reading about lifting and complain they don't have the time to lift or eat. If there is no time to eat then I would drop the internet for the time being unless you use it for your job or school.

powerpeppiness
12-18-2008, 01:32 AM
Its is deffinetly a form issue. I know we all want to lift big weights but sometimes you got to check your ego at the door! I wouls say to start box squatting. When your ass hits the box stop pause for a second then explode up. However when you do this keep your hips back before you pop and your back arched up. Keep the form and you improve. Lose the form and you'll be where your at.

Bruteman
12-18-2008, 05:03 AM
It does sound like a form issue. Like RhodeHouse said, you're getting loose in the hole. Everyone already mentioned box squats, but I'd like to add pin squats to that. I had/have the same problem and pin squats are helping me a lot.

geoffsherman
12-18-2008, 06:51 AM
It's a form issue. You're getting loose in the hole and you're not pushing your abs out against your belt. There's a whole bunch of things to work on.

-Arch back hard especially as you get deeper in the hole
-More ab work
-Pull your elbows under the bar and don't let them flair back behind you
-Hold your breath until you finish the lift
-Don't bounce in the hole
-Drive your head into the bar and get your eyes up

Post video so we can see it better.

Thank you for your recommendations. I think the ab work and elbow thing will be a focus for me as I am guessing that is also causing problems for me arching when I am in the hole. I will also work on getting a video posted.

geoffsherman
12-18-2008, 06:55 AM
So your saying all that is on your radar right now is average gains? Whether it is being low on money, not even having a job, or any other personal issues I can think of there is always a way to get the food in if you eat the right things. One example of something effective is whole milk.

You have to give lifting 100% or gains don't come or they come very slowly. 100% lifting dedication doesn't even take too much time compared to some other sports if you are smart about it.

Most people spend time reading about lifting and complain they don't have the time to lift or eat. If there is no time to eat then I would drop the internet for the time being unless you use it for your job or school.

Dude, you need to settle down a bit. My wife is pregnant with our first child and believe it or not, when that child is born, lifting will not be getting 100% of my focus. Also, as I add weight, my sleep apnea and overall general health get worse. If I had to choose adding 5 lbs to my PR or living a healthier lifestyle for my wife and child, the 5 lb PR will lose everytime. I appreciate folks who may prioritize differently, but the kamikaze hardcore powerifting at all costs things isn't for me. 4 days a week is my goal for being in the gym which is probably as good as most people. I will never be an elite or even very good powerlifter, I just want to improve over time for my own satisfaction, hence my question.

HP666
12-18-2008, 04:18 PM
Dude, you need to settle down a bit. My wife is pregnant with our first child and believe it or not, when that child is born, lifting will not be getting 100% of my focus. Also, as I add weight, my sleep apnea and overall general health get worse. If I had to choose adding 5 lbs to my PR or living a healthier lifestyle for my wife and child, the 5 lb PR will lose everytime. I appreciate folks who may prioritize differently, but the kamikaze hardcore powerifting at all costs things isn't for me. 4 days a week is my goal for being in the gym which is probably as good as most people. I will never be an elite or even very good powerlifter, I just want to improve over time for my own satisfaction, hence my question.


Well said. Do what's right for you.

Kray-z
12-19-2008, 06:44 AM
Dude, you need to settle down a bit. My wife is pregnant with our first child and believe it or not, when that child is born, lifting will not be getting 100% of my focus. Also, as I add weight, my sleep apnea and overall general health get worse. If I had to choose adding 5 lbs to my PR or living a healthier lifestyle for my wife and child, the 5 lb PR will lose everytime. I appreciate folks who may prioritize differently, but the kamikaze hardcore powerifting at all costs things isn't for me. 4 days a week is my goal for being in the gym which is probably as good as most people. I will never be an elite or even very good powerlifter, I just want to improve over time for my own satisfaction, hence my question.

I think OneLiftOneKill was just trying to help, you asked for help in your original post and he was giving it as he sees it, he has no idea about your pregnant wife or sleep apnea. Maybe you are lactose intolerant or upset about the current AIDS crisis in Africa too. Either way, you asked for help and he was suggesting it is not a difficult thing to make sure you can do a few things that will be helpful. One more thing, you are right, if you don't think you will ever been an elite lifter, or a very good one, you are right. Maybe you will or maybe you won't, but what you can do is maintain a good attitude and try to do as many things right as your lifestyle/desire will permit. Good luck with your lifting and family.

Kenny Croxdale
12-19-2008, 08:06 AM
All,

I am currently training usig the 5/3/1 program. I lift without a squat suit, briefs, or wraps. I am finding that as I fatigue on the lower sets, I am really dying out of the hole and my form gets shot. My hips are moving faster than my back so I end up falling forward a bit and GMing the weight up. I switched over to the 5/3/1 program for a bit because I don't think I was getting enough work with heavier (i.e. 85%+ weights). I wanted to see if anyone had recommendations on how to work on this weak point. I had thought about something like pause/box squats since those exercises seem to really focus on those last few inches as you hit parallel. Thanks in advance for recommendations.

Geoff,

Once fatigue sets in and your form deteriorates, you need to stop. Continueing once your form falls apart reinforces bad technique.

Your hips rising and shifting the load to your lower back suggest you have weak leg drive and a strong lower back. What often happens in lifting heavy loads is once we hit a sticking point, we automatically shift the load our "stonger link" in the body.

Another example of how we shift the load to our "stronger link" is seen when bench pressing heavy loads. When the bar slows down or almost stops on the way up, your left arm usually goes up first while your right arm lags behind.

That is because a right handed lifters right arm is usually the "stronger link". Your body instinctively realizes that and then automatically shift the "stronger link."

Thus, if you have a strong back and weak leg drive, you'd drive up with the your hips and shift the load to your lower back. You instinctively shifting the load to your "stronger link."

1) Do you have a strong lower back?
2) Are you legs the weak link?

If so, then pause and box squats with a pause would good exercises. Also, belt squats are an excellent exercise. They eliminate the lower back and place the work load on the legs.

Step Up would be another good exercise that would place the work load on the legs. However, belt squats would be more specific to addressing your squat issue.

More ab work will help, as well.

However, you do want a small bounce in coming out of the hole in a squat. Doing so, employs the stretch reflex, which sling shots you out of the hole.

"You don't want to bounce, but you don't want to stop, either," says McLaughlin. "You want a slight recoil - enough that the change in direction utilizes some of the energy transfer in your body." (Tom McLaughlin, PhD in biomechanics/former powerlifter).

"The Last Word On Squats."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1608/is_n9_v14/ai_21099904

One more thing is that some individuals are back squatters. While they may improve their leg strength/drive they will always have a tendency to shift the load to their "stronger link" once they hit a sticking point.

Kenny Croxdale

RhodeHouse
12-19-2008, 09:02 AM
All,

I am currently training usig the 5/3/1 program. I lift without a squat suit, briefs, or wraps. I am finding that as I fatigue on the lower sets, I am really dying out of the hole and my form gets shot. My hips are moving faster than my back so I end up falling forward a bit and GMing the weight up. I switched over to the 5/3/1 program for a bit because I don't think I was getting enough work with heavier (i.e. 85%+ weights). I wanted to see if anyone had recommendations on how to work on this weak point. I had thought about something like pause/box squats since those exercises seem to really focus on those last few inches as you hit parallel. Thanks in advance for recommendations.

Just squat and you'll be fine.

rbtrout
12-19-2008, 10:11 AM
A comment on the sleep apnea. I've got it, very mildly. I've been tested and went through all of that crap. That was the best thing I could have done. Now, I sleep with a cpap mask on, which forces air in and solves the apnea problem. If you can, I'd check that out. It has made a big difference in my lifting, as well as general over all well being.

geoffsherman
12-19-2008, 12:18 PM
A comment on the sleep apnea. I've got it, very mildly. I've been tested and went through all of that crap. That was the best thing I could have done. Now, I sleep with a cpap mask on, which forces air in and solves the apnea problem. If you can, I'd check that out. It has made a big difference in my lifting, as well as general over all well being.

I have one of those and they do help, but as my weight goes up, the more apneas I get. I do think those things do a nice job except that my wife says it sounds like a 747 landing in the room.

geoffsherman
12-19-2008, 12:19 PM
Geoff,

Once fatigue sets in and your form deteriorates, you need to stop. Continueing once your form falls apart reinforces bad technique.

Your hips rising and shifting the load to your lower back suggest you have weak leg drive and a strong lower back. What often happens in lifting heavy loads is once we hit a sticking point, we automatically shift the load our "stonger link" in the body.

Another example of how we shift the load to our "stronger link" is seen when bench pressing heavy loads. When the bar slows down or almost stops on the way up, your left arm usually goes up first while your right arm lags behind.

That is because a right handed lifters right arm is usually the "stronger link". Your body instinctively realizes that and then automatically shift the "stronger link."

Thus, if you have a strong back and weak leg drive, you'd drive up with the your hips and shift the load to your lower back. You instinctively shifting the load to your "stronger link."

1) Do you have a strong lower back?
2) Are you legs the weak link?

If so, then pause and box squats with a pause would good exercises. Also, belt squats are an excellent exercise. They eliminate the lower back and place the work load on the legs.

Step Up would be another good exercise that would place the work load on the legs. However, belt squats would be more specific to addressing your squat issue.

More ab work will help, as well.

However, you do want a small bounce in coming out of the hole in a squat. Doing so, employs the stretch reflex, which sling shots you out of the hole.

"You don't want to bounce, but you don't want to stop, either," says McLaughlin. "You want a slight recoil - enough that the change in direction utilizes some of the energy transfer in your body." (Tom McLaughlin, PhD in biomechanics/former powerlifter).

"The Last Word On Squats."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1608/is_n9_v14/ai_21099904

One more thing is that some individuals are back squatters. While they may improve their leg strength/drive they will always have a tendency to shift the load to their "stronger link" once they hit a sticking point.

Kenny Croxdale

Thank you for the feedback. I think I will incorporate a number of your suggestions such as step ups, box squats, and belt squats as assistance work going forward. I think it is definitely my leg drive that is lacking based on your explanation.

RhodeHouse
12-19-2008, 10:08 PM
I have one of those and they do help, but as my weight goes up, the more apneas I get. I do think those things do a nice job except that my wife says it sounds like a 747 landing in the room.

Get your pressure turned up all the way. Learn to sleep on your back all night. This should help.

If your wife has a problem with the CPAP, she is saying that she doesn't care about your health and is not on board with you trying to live a healtier and happier life. This may sound screwed up, but think about it. You could either die in your sleep, leaving her and your unborn baby to fend for themselves, or, she can stop being so GD selfish and be happy that this helps you feel better. I don't know your wife. I'm just basing this off of what you said in your post. No disrespect intended. But, seriously, tell her to keep quiet about the mask. Good luck to you.

And, just squat. Squatting will take care of any problems you have with weaknesses.

geoffsherman
12-20-2008, 05:27 PM
Get your pressure turned up all the way. Learn to sleep on your back all night. This should help.

If your wife has a problem with the CPAP, she is saying that she doesn't care about your health and is not on board with you trying to live a healtier and happier life. This may sound screwed up, but think about it. You could either die in your sleep, leaving her and your unborn baby to fend for themselves, or, she can stop being so GD selfish and be happy that this helps you feel better. I don't know your wife. I'm just basing this off of what you said in your post. No disrespect intended. But, seriously, tell her to keep quiet about the mask. Good luck to you.

And, just squat. Squatting will take care of any problems you have with weaknesses.


No my wife is cool with it, she just likes to give me a hard time about it. They adjusted my pressure so hopefully that will help.

I appreciate your advice and plan to incorporate some of it into my ongoing routines.

KarstenDD
12-20-2008, 08:34 PM
I suggest squatting more and getting stronger.

geoffsherman
12-21-2008, 02:35 PM
I did some box squats today after deadlifting and clearly leg drive is a problem. Once I pause on the box, I have very little explosive power. I will be incorporating these and belt squats into my routine for the next little while to see if I can bring up my squat. I have also started doing ab work which I had stopped doing about a month or two ago. Thanks for the help guys.