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WillNoble
12-20-2008, 10:18 PM
Generality versus specificity: a comparison of dynamic and isometric measures of strength and speed-strength



Daniel Baker, Greg Wilson, Bob Carlyon
Centre for Human Movement Science and Sports Management, The University of New England-Northern Rivers, Department of Human Movement Studies, The University of Queensland, St. Lucia, QLD, Australia


Abstract:

Considerable debate exists as to whether the
qualities of muscle function exist as general or specific
physiological capacities. If there is a generality of muscle
function then strong relationships would exist between
various measures of function for the same muscle(
s), independent of the test contraction, mode or
velocity. The purpose of this study was to examine the
relationship between isometric and dynamic measures
of muscle function to determine the existence of generality
or specificity. A group of 22 men, experienced in
weight training, were tested for lower and upper body
dynamic and isometric measures of strength and
speed-strength. The changes in these measures consequent
to a resistance training programme were also investigated.
The results of this study indicated that
whilst isometric and dynamic measures of strength did
significantly correlate (r=0.57-0.61), the relationship
was below that required to denote statistical generality.
More important, the changes in isometric and dynamic
strength consequent to a dynamic heavy resistance
training programme were unrelated (r=0.12-0.15).
Thus the mechanisms that contribute to enhanced dynamic
strength appearred unrelated to the mechanisms
that contribute to enhanced isometric strength. Measures
of dynamic and isometric speed-strength were unrelated,
as were the changes in these measures resulting
from training. The results of this study demonstrated
that a generality of muscle function did not exist
and that modality specific results were observed.
Consequently this study calls into question the validity
of isometric tests to monitor dynamically induced
training adaptations.






EDIT: I guess this should really go under sports specific...my bad, just thought it would spur some good discussion from Kenny C. and others...

WillNoble
12-20-2008, 10:21 PM
Someone tell Rhodes not to click on this thread

Reko
12-20-2008, 10:23 PM
So...
Getting stronger/lifting heavy doesn't make you a better isometric or dynamic lifter?

Was this reinforcing the necessity for speed work or am I reading this wrong?

Ben Moore
12-20-2008, 10:25 PM
Someone tell Rhodes not to click on this thread

LOL - I got a feeling you'll hear about this next week.

Ben Moore
12-20-2008, 10:25 PM
So...
Getting stronger/lifting heavy doesn't make you a better isometric or dynamic lifter?

Was this reinforcing the necessity for speed work or am I reading this wrong?

What I got out of it.

WillNoble
12-20-2008, 10:29 PM
primarily its stating that specificity not generality in testing is a necessity...

just because you have great isometric strength, does not mean you have great dynamic motor qualities


Or as I feel it would be applicable to PL, Dynamic effort (speed strength) and maximal strength (ME) are 2 completely different physical phenomena. While you can train for both, one does not lead to the other, or rather great success in one does not necessarily lead to success at all in the other.


I dunno, I blame Jamie Hale for this, we've been debating this article and the next one I'm about to post for about an hour on the phone now...

WillNoble
12-20-2008, 10:33 PM
THE EFFECTS OF COMBINING ELASTIC AND FREE WEIGHT RESISTANCE ON STRENGTH AND POWER IN ATHLETES

COREY E. ANDERSON, GARY A. SFORZO, AND JOHN A. SIGG
Exercise and Sport Sciences, Ithaca College, Ithaca, New York

Abstract:

This study was undertaken to determine whether combined
elastic and free weight resistance (CR) provides different strength
and power adaptations than free weight resistance (FWR) training
alone. Forty-four young (age 20 6 1 years), resistancetrained
(4 6 2 years’ experience) subjects were recruited from
men’s basketball and wrestling teams and women’s basketball
and hockey teams at Cornell University. Subjects were stratified
according to team, then randomly assigned to the control (C;
n = 21) or experimental group (E; n = 23). Before and after 7
weeks of resistance training, subjects were tested for lean body
mass, 1 repetition maximum back squat and bench press, and
peak and average power. Both C and E groups performed
identical workouts except that E used CR (i.e., elastic resistance)
for the back squat and bench press, whereas the C
group used FWR alone. CR was performed using an elastic
bungee cord attached to a standard barbell loaded with plates.
Elastic tension was accounted for in an attempt to equalize the
total work done by each group. Statistical analyses revealed
significant (P , 0.05) between-group differences after training.
Compared with C, improvement for E was nearly three times
greater for back squat (16.47 6 5.67 vs. 6.84 6 4.42 kg
increase), two times greater for bench press (6.68 6 3.41 vs.
3.34 6 2.67 kg increase), and nearly three times greater for
average power (68.55 6 84.35 vs. 23.66 6 40.56 watt
increase). Training with CR may be better than FWR alone for
developing lower and upper body strength, and lower body
power in resistance-trained individuals. Long-term effects are
unclear, but CR training makes a meaningful contribution in the
short term to performance adaptations of experienced athletes.

Reko
12-20-2008, 10:39 PM
Hooray bands!

WillNoble
12-20-2008, 10:44 PM
Hooray bands!

an entire scientific journal article explained in 2 words.


Well played sir.

KarstenDD
12-20-2008, 10:45 PM
I didn't read either. But it looked like math was involved. So I'm glad I didn't read it.

Ben Moore
12-20-2008, 10:45 PM
BAndz is kool!

Brad08
12-21-2008, 09:06 AM
I dunno, I blame Jamie Hale for this, we've been debating this article and the next one I'm about to post for about an hour on the phone now...

You have time to read nerd studies while also playing nerd WOW? How DO you do it??

vdizenzo
12-21-2008, 02:26 PM
Someone tell me if I am supposed to use bands or not for benching? I never understand these articles. Actually I don't care to read them. Call me dumb, I like lifting. I had a headache for weeks after reading Supertraining. Also, I didn't feel any stronger after reading it. SFW!

Ben Moore
12-21-2008, 02:31 PM
Someone tell me if I am supposed to use bands or not for benching? I never understand these articles. Actually I don't care to read them. Call me dumb, I like lifting. I had a headache for weeks after reading Supertraining. Also, I didn't feel any stronger after reading it. SFW!

LOL - I got a feeling this will be a similiar conversation next week when Rhodes is in town.

bencher8
12-21-2008, 03:22 PM
ok...that was some difficult reading. Here is a point though...when training DE work a lifter usually uses some form of accomodating resistance(mainly bands). So ,if during the dynamic effort study, they used bands instead of free weight only..might that change the dynamics of the lift enough for speed work to then relate more to any ME work that is done? According to the second study it should...unless I didnt understand right(which could be a distinct possibility)lol

I know that for me ,when I concentrate on speed strength, the primary improvement i see is the ability to "fire" the muscles used more quickly. I assume that this means I am recruiting muscle fibers faster. The more muscle fibers that can be recruited, as quickly as possible, the faster the heavy weight moves. But thats just a experience I have seen in me...no scientific data to back it up lol

HP666
12-21-2008, 07:32 PM
I didn't read either. But it looked like math was involved. So I'm glad I didn't read it.

I'm with you there. I saw numbers and just kept scrolling.

chris mason
12-21-2008, 07:36 PM
Motor learning and the S.A.I.D. principle. They have both been around a long time.

Speed work does not increase your 1RM opinion in the manner most people think it does (in my opinion). Speed work serves as more of a recovery form of training due to the lighter loads. I am speaking of speed work relative to the big 3 lifts.

HP666
12-21-2008, 07:40 PM
Or as I feel it would be applicable to PL, Dynamic effort (speed strength) and maximal strength (ME) are 2 completely different physical phenomena. While you can train for both, one does not lead to the other, or rather great success in one does not necessarily lead to success at all in the other.



Yes, maybe, but who the hell cares? And that's not directed at you Will. What I mean is as a PL I could give two *****s if my ME work makes my DE work better. But I DO give two *****s that my DE work is helping me get stronger in my ME work. Know what I mean? (Like bencher8said, maybe didn't get it either, if I didn't sorry)

WillNoble
12-21-2008, 07:54 PM
Yes, maybe, but who the hell cares? And that's not directed at you Will. What I mean is as a PL I could give two *****s if my ME work makes my DE work better. But I DO give two *****s that my DE work is helping me get stronger in my ME work. Know what I mean? (Like bencher8said, maybe didn't get it either, if I didn't sorry)

again, why I said I shouldve initially posted it under sports specific/GPP, where the arguement holds more in terms of ME having little effect on DE, but seeing as Im not a mod, I cant move the post. My bad

Lones Green
12-21-2008, 07:57 PM
interesting post Will.

HP666
12-21-2008, 08:14 PM
again, why I said I shouldve initially posted it under sports specific/GPP, where the arguement holds more in terms of ME having little effect on DE, but seeing as Im not a mod, I cant move the post. My bad

Yep, I do understand the concept, sorry if my post seemed a bit abrasive, it wasn't meant to be. Very interesting subject though.

WillNoble
12-21-2008, 09:52 PM
Yep, I do understand the concept, sorry if my post seemed a bit abrasive, it wasn't meant to be. Very interesting subject though.

Did not take it as such my friend... Again it was my goof for posting it in here vs. sports specific



IF ANY MODS READ THIS, PLEASE MOVE THIS THREAD TO GPP/SPORTS SPECIFIC

Szust
12-21-2008, 10:08 PM
Interesting articles. Convinced me to buy some bands for christmas!

WillNoble
12-21-2008, 10:15 PM
Interesting articles. Convinced me to buy some bands for christmas!

my work here is done

Reko
12-22-2008, 11:03 AM
primarily its stating that specificity not generality in testing is a necessity...

just because you have great isometric strength, does not mean you have great dynamic motor qualities


Or as I feel it would be applicable to PL, Dynamic effort (speed strength) and maximal strength (ME) are 2 completely different physical phenomena. While you can train for both, one does not lead to the other, or rather great success in one does not necessarily lead to success at all in the other.


I dunno, I blame Jamie Hale for this, we've been debating this article and the next one I'm about to post for about an hour on the phone now...

Wait, I just reread that, wouldn't that mean, if they were uncorrelated, that it isn't necessary to do de work to increase your max through speed, but rather use it as an alternative to "heavy" straight weight (or maybe couple it with the second study with the bands and use it as a band day to build strength)? That way CNS burnout is avoided?
Something similar to ME and west side RE with the stupid amounts of band tension?

WillNoble
12-22-2008, 12:12 PM
While I think the study concurs with what you are saying, I think it fails to (mostly because it is out of the scope of the study) take into account the rate injury and lack of adequate rest associated with that disassociation...


Either way you now understand why Jamie and I were having good discussion on these 2 topics...