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ZenMonkey
01-05-2009, 01:21 PM
As you can see from the videos I am having trouble getting my knees forward and staying vertical in my squats. I have begun stretching more and really working on general squat mobility. This includes squatting against a door jam and pushing my knees forward w/ my hands, duck walks, bending over to stretch hams and moving that into a low squat position in addition to normal static stretching. I am hoping that I can cure this with increased quad and ankle flexibility.

Any advice is sure appericiated


135 x3: r8CAhqF2rgk

185 x3: DtUvSBUFudY

225 x3: xaoYIgcrnWg


FS
135 x3: JHb7P9yEdJQ
FS
155 x3: AdLAisJDb8k

Thanks!:hello:

CleverName
01-05-2009, 01:28 PM
Feet a bit further apart
Toes pointed out a bit more
Looks like you're starting the squat with your knees, not your hips
Really focus on staying on your heels
Keep back as tightly arched as possible
Butt is tucking under near the bottom, which is indicative of tight hamstrings (so more stretching!)
On the 225 set the weight is pushing you down when you need to keep your chest up
STAY TIGHT!!

On your front squat your knees are all over the place.. and I think it's because you aren't starting the lift with your hips. Push your knees outward coming up.

That's about all I can think of for now! :)

Notorious
01-05-2009, 03:16 PM
Keep those wrists straight for the back squats! It looks like your hands are supporting the weight, not your back. If you keep squatting this way, you WILL develop tendonitis.

ZenMonkey
01-05-2009, 05:48 PM
Thanks for the advice fellas.
I will take more videos using this advice on Wednesday and post updates.

geoffsherman
01-05-2009, 05:49 PM
A few recommendations:
Focus on pushing through your heels on the back squats
GRIP the bar. You are kind of supporting it in a catch position which (a) isn't secure (b) will make it hard to keep your back tight
You seem to be breaking at the knees first rather than the hips.
Drive your head into the bar at the bottom
Take two small steps to unrack and go with it

I know it is a lot to take in. I find that every squat session I will focus on one or two technique things that I want to make sure I do.

Reko
01-05-2009, 06:04 PM
On the FS I actually do something similar. If I start with my hips, I'll dump it. I literally have to start with my knees forward or bent to remind myself to start with the knees vs hips, unlike a PL squat. Maybe don't emphasize it as much because it almost looks like you are doing that too. I had to bend/unlock my knees, pause, then go into the FS when I was learning them. I don't do them often so for my warmups I'll do something similar to make sure I get it.

Other thing I noticed was that you lift very very slow. Was that on purpose?

joey54
01-06-2009, 05:15 PM
Reko I think he was slow with the form because of a fear of losing his balance. Zen sounds like you have a plan on what is needed to correct what you feel is lacking. Keep after it and you will look like Fuzzy in no time.

geoffsherman
01-06-2009, 06:06 PM
And feel free to post videos as you work through your form...

ZenMonkey
01-07-2009, 09:06 AM
Thanks guys! I will have some more videos up today.

deeder
01-07-2009, 09:19 AM
I was going to suggest a narrower stance and pointing your toes out but I saw the first reply was to bring your stance out... So now I'm not sure... A proper oly squat is obviously going to take a lot of flexibility that most people have to work towards...

Ben Moore
01-07-2009, 09:20 AM
Agree with everyone - you may also want to add in some extra core work - you're really loose under the bar.

Brad08
01-07-2009, 09:32 AM
Agree with everyone - you may also want to add in some extra core work - you're really loose under the bar.

Can you explain that a little more? Any video in particular, or all of them?

Reko
01-07-2009, 09:37 AM
Can you explain that a little more? Any video in particular, or all of them?

I could be wrong, but i think he means he doens't look real steady, like he is having trouble controling the weight due to not having a strong core. Just simply not tight in the hole or whatever.

Cards
01-07-2009, 11:11 AM
i found that using a lower bar placement on my traps and bringing my grip in further helped me stay tighter. made it easier to stay more upright ???? and less foward.

where's fuzzy when you need him.

Sensei
01-07-2009, 11:49 AM
I think most of the suggestions are good - I didn't read them all.

Point your toes out more and allow your hips to outwardly rotate and the knees to track outward. It almost looks to me like you are trying to keep the knees from tracking outward.

You are totally going lax at the bottom - that's not good.

Your form w. 225 is much better than your set w. 135.

Ben Moore
01-07-2009, 12:35 PM
Can you explain that a little more? Any video in particular, or all of them?

This




You are totally going lax at the bottom - that's not good.

.

ZenMonkey
01-07-2009, 12:51 PM
Thanks everyone. Im uploading videos as we speak.

First Ill say that I did a few things today that I havent done before in my squats

1. Break at hips first
2. Wider Stance
3. Toes out more
4. Maintained(or tried) a small tight arch and tight back.

The squats, as a result of all this, felt even more taxing on the entire body. I was not at the top of my weight but things felt heavier than usual. I also think I kept my torso more vertical.

Vids will be up asap

ZenMonkey
01-07-2009, 04:18 PM
Back Squat
185
DEKoBnmD450
225
Su4wkp9fboE

Front Squat
135
pQvOQppGI14
155
NFXp4pmhXKk

ELmx479
01-07-2009, 04:33 PM
Looks like you lift at a pretty darn nice gym. When your in the hole should your elbows drop down? I try to keep mine pulled back. Just wondering..
Also, I respect those front squats, they are tough to perform.

Cards
01-07-2009, 06:27 PM
looks better man, keep at it. keep stretching too.

Notorious
01-07-2009, 08:14 PM
Would it be possible to get a vid from a little farther away, so we can see what your whole body is doing?

ZenMonkey
01-07-2009, 09:13 PM
Would it be possible to get a vid from a little farther away, so we can see what your whole body is doing?

Sure. Ill get them on Friday's session. Should I keep that angle?

Reko
01-07-2009, 09:41 PM
Im thinking the knees should break first in a front squat, not the hips...

teeroy
01-07-2009, 11:11 PM
Thanks everyone. Im uploading videos as we speak.

First Ill say that I did a few things today that I havent done before in my squats

1. Break at hips first
2. Wider Stance
3. Toes out more
4. Maintained(or tried) a small tight arch and tight back.

The squats, as a result of all this, felt even more taxing on the entire body. I was not at the top of my weight but things felt heavier than usual. I also think I kept my torso more vertical.

Vids will be up asap

I got SS for xmas and quickly read through it and have been working on my squat form on basically all the points that everyone on this thread has said so far. I totally agree with you. When I keep my back tight in the arch it made things feel heavier. I thought that was wierd. I think it was maybe because it made me want to stay too upright. I think it is OK to bend your upper body so that the bar remains over the middle of your foot all the way down. So I'm going to try keeping tight and bending my upper body just a bit more on my next squat day to see if it doesn't make it feel so heavy.

Runty
01-08-2009, 12:34 AM
Second set definitely looked better. I had(sort of still have) a similar problem with the butt curling under at the bottom. Once the back rounds even that slight bit I was losing a lot of tightness in the core and it was much harder to transfer leg drive straight up into the bar. Not sure how often you stretch but try doing hamstring stretches a few times a day. Just takes a minute per leg and the improvements come real quick. The only other thing I noticed and I think someone mentioned it earlier is you seem to be going a bit slow and staying in the hole too long. You don't want to just drop into the hole out of control but you can still get a little bit of the stretch reflex by coming back up just as you stop your descent. This, however, is a bit tricky if you lose tightness right as you get to the bottom.

All in all though nice squatting, and your videos make me want to take some of my own.

ZenMonkey
01-08-2009, 08:46 AM
Second set definitely looked better. I had(sort of still have) a similar problem with the butt curling under at the bottom. Once the back rounds even that slight bit I was losing a lot of tightness in the core and it was much harder to transfer leg drive straight up into the bar. Not sure how often you stretch but try doing hamstring stretches a few times a day. Just takes a minute per leg and the improvements come real quick. The only other thing I noticed and I think someone mentioned it earlier is you seem to be going a bit slow and staying in the hole too long. You don't want to just drop into the hole out of control but you can still get a little bit of the stretch reflex by coming back up just as you stop your descent. This, however, is a bit tricky if you lose tightness right as you get to the bottom.

All in all though nice squatting, and your videos make me want to take some of my own.

Thanks man. I was going slow to exaggerate the stretch of my quads, ankles and knees at the bottom.

ZenMonkey
01-09-2009, 03:27 PM
135lbs
dqpCHNeYHGM
GJGiVvF-HjA

155lbs
Y4SwdI9waQ4

175lbs-- I did few sets between the first 175video and the 2nd.
2A7quJiT7co
8HtBFfwZQw8

ZenMonkey
01-10-2009, 08:17 AM
Gonna bump this thing before I hit the gym today. Any critique or advice will be used and appericiated!

coldfire
01-10-2009, 08:31 AM
Seems to me like you are thinking too much about the squat. Just sit down like you are leaning against a wall. You are doing it very slow.

ZenMonkey
01-10-2009, 02:08 PM
Seems to me like you are thinking too much about the squat. Just sit down like you are leaning against a wall. You are doing it very slow.

I appericiate the input but if I could squat like that I wouldnt have made the thread. I HAVE to think aout it that much, I HAVE to relearn how to squat since OLY squatting is very different from conventional squatting. I also know Im doing it slow, I cant rebound until my form is in check. Thanks :)

Jorge Sanchez
01-10-2009, 02:32 PM
Front squats look tons better. The last rep of each of the two 175 sets, you round your upper back a little bit. You also seem to lose some tightness in the hole, but I think that's because you are pausing.

ZenMonkey
01-10-2009, 02:37 PM
Front squats look tons better. The last rep of each of the two 175 sets, you round your upper back a little bit. You also seem to lose some tightness in the hole, but I think that's because you are pausing.

Thanks, bud. I dont know how to correct upper back rounding- :confused:

besides getting everything more upright- which is the current battle

coldfire
01-10-2009, 03:18 PM
I appericiate the input but if I could squat like that I wouldnt have made the thread. I HAVE to think aout it that much, I HAVE to relearn how to squat since OLY squatting is very different from conventional squatting. I also know Im doing it slow, I cant rebound until my form is in check. Thanks :)

That was my point. Your form is fine, you just have to do it faster and stay upright.

ZenMonkey
01-10-2009, 03:23 PM
That was my point. Your form is fine, you just have to do it faster and stay upright.

Ill try it then. So you think if I stay tight and move faster I shouldnt run into balance problems? It still seems like I might lean forward

coldfire
01-10-2009, 03:26 PM
Ill try it then. So you think if I stay tight and move faster I shouldnt run into balance problems? It still seems like I might lean forward

As long as you stay tight I don't think you will lean forward more than needed.

By the way, do you have short torso or very long legs? Some people with bad body proportions can't front squat very well.

Jorge Sanchez
01-10-2009, 03:29 PM
Thanks, bud. I dont know how to correct upper back rounding- :confused:

besides getting everything more upright- which is the current battle

Shoulders back, elbows up. Staying more upright will makes it lots easier too.

ZenMonkey
01-12-2009, 09:28 PM
Here are some from today. I really focused on being tight. I squeezed my shoulder blades together more today and I think it helped me stay tight and upright. Lemme know what yall think!

135
a4Fp8NgKNYI

185
VqaZA70P3x4
g6IJ7D_uXr4

225
KCqk22TIJUQ

WillKuenzel
01-13-2009, 06:50 AM
One thing that correlates between oly squatting and powerlifting squatting: big air. You need to take a big breathe of air in before you start your descent. You're getting to the bottom and without that air to help stabilize your core, you're losing tightness at the bottom. Breathe air into your stomach. When you breathe in you should try to stick your stomach out in your best beer gut impression.

Another thing is to squeeze your hands tight the entire time. The first couple of inches up out of the hole, you're so concerned with getting the weight up that you forget to squeeze the hands and that's leading to your upper back getting loose, your elbows drifting back and that's pushing you forward when your chest drops. You still need to push through your heels and lead with the chest. Think about trying to press the bar up as your come up. Just like you're trying to do a behind the neck over head press coming up out of the hole.

Live
01-13-2009, 08:07 AM
You can really see a big difference in your squat form since the first couple of videos, well done!

ZenMonkey
01-13-2009, 12:40 PM
One thing that correlates between oly squatting and powerlifting squatting: big air. You need to take a big breathe of air in before you start your descent. You're getting to the bottom and without that air to help stabilize your core, you're losing tightness at the bottom. Breathe air into your stomach. When you breathe in you should try to stick your stomach out in your best beer gut impression.

Another thing is to squeeze your hands tight the entire time. The first couple of inches up out of the hole, you're so concerned with getting the weight up that you forget to squeeze the hands and that's leading to your upper back getting loose, your elbows drifting back and that's pushing you forward when your chest drops. You still need to push through your heels and lead with the chest. Think about trying to press the bar up as your come up. Just like you're trying to do a behind the neck over head press coming up out of the hole.
Thanks HomeY! I was going to ask that earlier actually. I realized that I wsant really engaging my abs and core into it and that would certainly help me "sit" more if I did. Does that sound like a decent interpretation?

Do you mean squeeze the bar down, or just squeeze? Am I correct in squeezing my shoulders together? It seemed to help me stay tighter. I think once I combine that with abdominal engagement might be what I need to get rid of this forward lean BS I cant seem to shake.



You can really see a big difference in your squat form since the first couple of videos, well done!

Thanks man!

coldfire
01-13-2009, 02:28 PM
Well done, but you need to stop looking up so much.

WillKuenzel
01-13-2009, 02:54 PM
Thanks HomeY! I was going to ask that earlier actually. I realized that I wsant really engaging my abs and core into it and that would certainly help me "sit" more if I did. Does that sound like a decent interpretation?Close. Don't really think about engaging the abs though. It's more of pushing them out and pulling air in behind them. When you contract the abs, they are essentially trying to pull you over. You want to push your abs out or think about trying to push your belly button as far away from your spine as you can. It's more of a breathing thing though.


Do you mean squeeze the bar down, or just squeeze? Am I correct in squeezing my shoulders together? It seemed to help me stay tighter. I think once I combine that with abdominal engagement might be what I need to get rid of this forward lean BS I cant seem to shake.
Really just squeeze your hands as tight as you can but you're correct in trying to squeeze your shoulder blades together. Just don't shrug the traps up. Squeeze your shoulders down and back. This brings the chest up. If the traps rise, the chest falls. Watch yourself in the mirror while doing this: try to get your shoulders to touch your ears (or squeeze the traps up), what happens to your chest, it essentially deflates. Think about rolling your shoulders back and then down and puffing your chest up like a rooster. It's tough to maintain that but that kind of gives you an over-exaggerated idea of the position you should see.

Another thing is to think about pushing the bar up as you come up. How would you try to come up if you were going to jump up into a push jerk from a bottomed out squat?

ZenMonkey
01-13-2009, 02:59 PM
Close. Don't really think about engaging the abs though. It's more of pushing them out and pulling air in behind them. When you contract the abs, they are essentially trying to pull you over. You want to push your abs out or think about trying to push your belly button as far away from your spine as you can. It's more of a breathing thing though.


Really just squeeze your hands as tight as you can but you're correct in trying to squeeze your shoulder blades together. Just don't shrug the traps up. Squeeze your shoulders down and back. This brings the chest up. If the traps rise, the chest falls. Watch yourself in the mirror while doing this: try to get your shoulders to touch your ears (or squeeze the traps up), what happens to your chest, it essentially deflates. Think about rolling your shoulders back and then down and puffing your chest up like a rooster. It's tough to maintain that but that kind of gives you an over-exaggerated idea of the position you should see.

Another thing is to think about pushing the bar up as you come up. How would you try to come up if you were going to jump up into a push jerk from a bottomed out squat?


Cool, I think were on the same page about the abs. When I said engaged I meant flexed and puffed out... like a big belly. So you think this will help me get more vertical?

I think that will help me "push" the bar up better.. I think, if Im understanding you correctly. You dont mean push as in press the bar w/ my arms, correct?

11not10
01-13-2009, 06:24 PM
Still need to grip that bar though, the videos are nice improvements in form though. A lot of good advice from everyone in this thread.

WillKuenzel
01-14-2009, 06:31 AM
Cool, I think were on the same page about the abs. When I said engaged I meant flexed and puffed out... like a big belly. So you think this will help me get more vertical?Yep. The more internal pressure helps to support the spine and helps to keep you from falling forward. You're doing internally what a belt helps with externally.


I think that will help me "push" the bar up better.. I think, if Im understanding you correctly. You dont mean push as in press the bar w/ my arms, correct?Actually, I do mean to press the bar. The weight should be heavy enough that you can't press it but the idea of that action will get you moving up in the right direction. While a squat is a leg exercise, you can't neglect what the upper body should be doing. What direction should the bar go? Should the upper body not act accordingly to get the bar to move in that direction? If you just think of holding on to the bar without engaging the upper body to do some of the work too, then you're missing out on a lot of muscles that can help to make the exercise a lot easier.

By actually trying to press the bar, the elbows get under bar, the head comes up and the chest has to lead. Otherwise, you end up trying to "leg press" it up.

ZenMonkey
01-14-2009, 09:04 AM
Yep. The more internal pressure helps to support the spine and helps to keep you from falling forward. You're doing internally what a belt helps with externally.

Actually, I do mean to press the bar. The weight should be heavy enough that you can't press it but the idea of that action will get you moving up in the right direction. While a squat is a leg exercise, you can't neglect what the upper body should be doing. What direction should the bar go? Should the upper body not act accordingly to get the bar to move in that direction? If you just think of holding on to the bar without engaging the upper body to do some of the work too, then you're missing out on a lot of muscles that can help to make the exercise a lot easier.

By actually trying to press the bar, the elbows get under bar, the head comes up and the chest has to lead. Otherwise, you end up trying to "leg press" it up.

Well put! I will take some vids today... THanks!!!

Szust
01-14-2009, 09:27 AM
I was actually going to mention the breath/abs thing, but HomeYield beat me too it.

ZenMonkey
01-14-2009, 01:05 PM
Spoke with a fellow o lifter today and he watched me squat. I think it helped, he helped identify the same problems but was able to "guide" my body through the movement. This helped me eliminate much of the forward lean in my squat and front squat. He also told me it would get much easier after I developed a better base of strength around the small tight, aggressive aarch- which makes sense. Since I hve begun focusing on that my lower back has been sore tight. Its just not used to that dramatic of an arch. Ill post some videos of todays WO asap

ZenMonkey
01-16-2009, 02:48 PM
Im feeling much better about these. Lemme know what yall think!


95lbs
k1FXOGw9sxc

135lbs
B6sJs1rzTEk

185lbs
fR5Ex0BpViw

2nd 135lbs
pMHPSkW2gYQ

CleverName
01-16-2009, 04:35 PM
You're still starting the lift with your knees. It makes it look like you're going forward when you're supposed to be sitting back. Other than that just stay as tight as you can!

ZenMonkey
01-17-2009, 04:23 PM
Im trying to break at the same time... Ill work on this. Thanks!

shawno
01-18-2009, 12:28 PM
My 2 cents bro.
From what limited info I can gather via your video frame, I would say you need to continue to work on overall strength - obliques, abs, lower back, upper back - as opposed to your flexibility.

ZenMonkey
01-18-2009, 08:27 PM
My 2 cents bro.
From what limited info I can gather via your video frame, I would say you need to continue to work on overall strength - obliques, abs, lower back, upper back - as opposed to your flexibility.

Thanks man, but Ive gotta say, my routine is fairly well rounded and my core and upper back are pretty strong. After feeling the DOMS from the improved squat position I belive I need to get used to that position of remaining tight and things should work out. I cannot neglect flexibility or it will bite me in my ass down the road. Flexibility is actully a major concern here and I do have some stiff ankles and tight hips and thighs. This is a major downfall when it comes to catching the bar very low.

Fuzzy
01-18-2009, 09:29 PM
I haven't read the thread but I think a very large amount of your problems could be fixed by improving your SHOULDER flexibility.

You look extremely awkward in the bottom.

Also, everyone is telling you to stretch, I would make the claim that foam rolling and soft tissue work are far more important. If you can get your hands on a hard small ball, place it against a wall and grind your chest against it. Press till it hurt all over your pecs, shoulders and upper back. Do the same with a roller over your quads, hams glutes and itb's.

You are taking the narrow stance a bit too far, widen up a bit and point the toes out, a good way to judge is to jump off a bench and go into a full squat, the position you land in should be very close to your best squat position.

As for breaking, DON'T over think this, you are simply confusing yourself by breaking with the hips or the knees or the blah blah blah. Think 'up/down' whilst staying upright and your body will take care of the rest. I have seen several begginners come to our little gym who read on the internet and struggle to grasp the squat because they are constantly trying to think about breaking. Just squat your body will take care of the rest.

Another thing, GET A BIG FILL UP. You aren't gonna squat heavy if you have the tightness of a flaccid penis, suck that air in at the top so that the bar raises a few inches, hold the breath till the bottom then rocket out. As you get more advanced the next stage will be learning to properly bounce out of the whole. There is a technique to bouncing, it isn't a free fall but a controlled slight relaxation.

Otherwise, glad to see you join the Oly squat club.

Minus the slight good mornings these are pretty textbook squats.
fnG5y9Ovs2Q

ZenMonkey
01-19-2009, 03:12 PM
Heres the latest- any thoughts?

135
EXV6XvExzn8

185
1w29qpXg6NM

225

f8EXI9MOCRU

Fuzzy
01-19-2009, 03:24 PM
Aha!

Zen, can you stand upright for me and hold a pen in both hands across the palm, like a sword. Tell me where they point in comparison with the way your body is facing, are they inwards?

Second, that head is alot farther backward and up than necessary and it's throwing the entire movement out. Put the head down a bit.

The biggest problems also seems to stem from your should flexibility, your elbows should be considerably higher, i think you need too loosen off the pec.

EDIT: After a second watching, your 225 is much MUCH better, it's amazing how the body figures itself out under heavier weights. $You need to facilitate some heavy from rolling on your legs, especially your hammies and lower back.

Sensei
01-19-2009, 04:02 PM
I think things are looking pretty good Zen. IMHO, it's time to simply immerse yourself in squat for a while and tweak as you go to master the finer nuances.

ZenMonkey
01-19-2009, 05:04 PM
Aha!

Zen, can you stand upright for me and hold a pen in both hands across the palm, like a sword. Tell me where they point in comparison with the way your body is facing, are they inwards?What do you mean?

Second, that head is alot farther backward and up than necessary and it's throwing the entire movement out. Put the head down a bit.
Will do. I dont do it on purpose, it just seems to happen when I arch aggressively
The biggest problems also seems to stem from your should flexibility, your elbows should be considerably higher, i think you need too loosen off the pec.

Do you mean elbows back? I was pushing them forward on purpose... Ill check your vid again
EDIT: After a second watching, your 225 is much MUCH better, it's amazing how the body figures itself out under heavier weights. $You need to facilitate some heavy from rolling on your legs, especially your hammies and lower back.

Thanks Fuzzy, check the above in red





I think things are looking pretty good Zen. IMHO, it's time to simply immerse yourself in squat for a while and tweak as you go to master the finer nuances.

That means alot coming from you man, thanks!

joey54
01-19-2009, 05:53 PM
I think things are looking pretty good Zen. IMHO, it's time to simply immerse yourself in squat for a while and tweak as you go to master the finer nuances.

Very good advice by one of the best. Just get after it Zen. Your diligence and work ethic will serve you well not only in lifting, but life in general.

Fuzzy
01-19-2009, 08:32 PM
Thanks Fuzzy, check the above in red

Don't worry about the pen thing.

Be mindful of the head thing, I was getting extremely dizzy doing front squats for about 2-3 weeks until my coach came up behind me and slapped my head forward saying 'I assumed you would figure it out yourself, but obviously not.' Just look straight ahead and keep your eyes fixed on the spot you face when standing.

Yes, definitely do NOT bring the elbows under the bar. Olympic squats are very natural movements, the more you over think them the worse they get, things such as breaking and elbows will sort themselves out under weight. Don't force the elbows anywhere, just keep them back and comfortable.

Like Sensei said, time will teach you little things such as foot placement etc, for now good work.

ZenMonkey
01-19-2009, 08:44 PM
Thanks everybody! I have been lying off the weight and I am super excited to start getting stronger. Ive been doing everything else the same in my split but it feels so cold and empty without squatting heavy. Time to get it on.

WillKuenzel
01-20-2009, 05:13 AM
Yes, definitely do NOT bring the elbows under the bar. Olympic squats are very natural movements, the more you over think them the worse they get, things such as breaking and elbows will sort themselves out under weight. Don't force the elbows anywhere, just keep them back and comfortable.Why wouldn't you bring your elbows forward? I would think that you would try, just simply to keep the chest up. Watch the 225 video again, the hips lead first and with the elbows back it pushes his chest forward. The same thing happens in your video. The hips lead, forcing you over and then relying too much on the lower back to fix the issue. If you lead with the chest then everything comes straight up.

How do you front squat? Do you not try to keep the elbows up? What happens when the elbows fall on a front squat?

Fuzzy
01-20-2009, 09:17 AM
Why wouldn't you bring your elbows forward? I would think that you would try, just simply to keep the chest up. Watch the 225 video again, the hips lead first and with the elbows back it pushes his chest forward. The same thing happens in your video. The hips lead, forcing you over and then relying too much on the lower back to fix the issue. If you lead with the chest then everything comes straight up.

How do you front squat? Do you not try to keep the elbows up? What happens when the elbows fall on a front squat?

Fronts and backs are very different animals.

My back relaxing has nothing to do with where my elbows are but weakness in my hamstrings and glutes.

I didn't tell him to force anything back, i told him that nothing offer to be forced. His squats look very awkward.

I played around with it in training and can't fathom why would force the elbows forward, it made the movement ******ed.

Again i stress, this is one movement you don't want to over complicate. The more he thinks about elbows and where to break the uglier the squats will get.

Squat up, squat down, keep tight and the chest up. The body will figure the other things such as elbows etc out.

I speak from experience.

WillKuenzel
01-20-2009, 10:23 AM
LOL, I speak from experience too. Almost as much experience as you are old. But I'm not talking about that.

Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjfEnUT2A-g&feature=related
AjfEnUT2A

Watch his chest. That's a picture perfect squat. Notice that when the hips start to rise too fast, he corrects it by moving the chest up. If you can do that, then great. A cue that helps is to move the elbows forward. Whether or not that's the terminology that has been used to coach you is not important. What's important is the fact that the elbows don't move back. When the elbows move back, you're supporting the bar with the back not the shoulders and arms. When that happens you start relying your lower back to complete the lift instead of the larger quads and glutes. It becomes a good morning. Can you GM more than you can squat? I can't. If I'm going to squat, everything rises together. Not correcting bad habits now, makes fixing them or "letting it fall into place" that much more difficult later.

Did you correct the head thing on your own or did your coach have to smack you in the back of the head? Not everything is self correcting.

Sensei
01-20-2009, 11:11 AM
Well said HY. I don't think this thread is really about elbow positioning, but what the hell, I'll weigh in. Elbow (and arm) positioning are important because they affect shoulder and upper back positioning. The elbows don't have to be under the bar, but for most, driving them under the bar helps keep the upper back contracted and upright.

An equipped squat, but deep and upright and you can see elbow position on it very well (from 2:30):

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ZenMonkey
01-21-2009, 01:57 PM
This will be the last update for a while I hope.

I cant seem to get my knees past my toes. Is this a flexibility issue? I seem to have ironed out the form kinks but just cant get my knees forward to get deeper

225
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205
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185
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These are 60kilos from the side (on the platform)

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ZenMonkey
01-21-2009, 06:46 PM
I have been driving too flat footed. I have also been way too slow.


I ws squatting at home w/ a broomstick and it just clicked. I referenced a source and it confirmed the way I was squatting. This feels good.

Sensei
01-23-2009, 12:19 PM
I'm not really understanding why you are actively trying to get your knees past your toes. I've never heard of that. Driving the knees forward will not make your squat deeper - if anything, it will make it "shallower".

ZenMonkey
01-23-2009, 12:29 PM
I'm not really understanding why you are actively trying to get your knees past your toes. I've never heard of that. Driving the knees forward will not make your squat deeper - if anything, it will make it "shallower".

Knees forward is a byproduct of getting my ass to my heels, staying vertical, and balancing through the ball of my feet. This is actually the only way to get as deep as I need to.

Im not sure if I understand what you mean- "shallower"

Sensei
01-23-2009, 12:35 PM
Drive the knees forward enough and you will be seated "seiza" and you won't even be breaking parallel.

I think you're over thinking things. Outwardly rotate the hips. Go as deep as you'd like or your hip and hamstring flexibility allow. Keep your weight "on the heels". That would be my advice.

ZenMonkey
01-23-2009, 12:55 PM
Drive the knees forward enough and you will be seated "seiza" and you won't even be breaking parallel.

I think you're over thinking things. Outwardly rotate the hips. Go as deep as you'd like or your hip and hamstring flexibility allow. Keep your weight "on the heels". That would be my advice.

Taken from another forum I consulted about this issue

Since the olympic squat involves keeping the back angle vertical, and since this requires that your knee angle be more acute, you should try to lean back and shove your knees more out and forward on the way down.

To do this (according to Tommy Kono) I must remain w/ feet flat but the area of balance should be at the ball of my feet. When I did this, today, I got much closer to depth and was much more vertical.


I feel really confused now....:confused:

Sensei
01-23-2009, 02:26 PM
I don't think anything I've advised contradicts what you've quoted from Mark Rippetoe. I wouldn't word it that way, but of course he's correct.

The deeper you go, the more acute the hip, knee, and ankle angles will be. If your hips and hamstrings are strong and flexible enough and your technique is solid, you can sit deeper with more hip flexion and less ankle flexion. If ankle flexibility is an issue, then address it, but IMHO most people are lacking in the hip and hamstring flexibility department and they are trying to make up for that with ankle flexion and compromised positioning at the bottom of the hole. I've had a number of people disagree with me on this point (some of them very respected coaches), so I could be wrong but I doubt it.

I don't know why Tommy Kono would advise to keep their weight at the ball of the foot, but I'm sure if he did he would have his reasons. Yes, you could do a Hindu squat and your upper body would remain perfectly vertical, but you will not be able to squat much weight.

I said I think you're overthinking things and now it's clear you are. As I said a page ago, immerse yourself in squat for a while and make small adjustments as you go.

ZenMonkey
01-23-2009, 02:29 PM
I don't think anything I've advised contradicts what you've quoted from Mark Rippetoe. I wouldn't word it that way, but of course he's correct.

The deeper you go, the more acute the hip, knee, and ankle angles will be. If your hips and hamstrings are strong and flexible enough and your technique is solid, you can sit deeper with more hip flexion and less ankle flexion. If ankle flexibility is an issue, then address it, but IMHO most people are lacking in the hip and hamstring flexibility department and they are trying to make up for that with ankle flexion and compromised positioning at the bottom of the hole. I've had a number of people disagree with me on this point (some of them very respected coaches), so I could be wrong but I doubt it.

I don't know why Tommy Kono would advise to keep their weight at the ball of the foot, but I'm sure if he did he would have his reasons. Yes, you could do a Hindu squat and your upper body would remain perfectly vertical, but you will not be able to squat much weight.

I said I think you're overthinking things and now it's clear you are. As I said a page ago, immerse yourself in squat for a while and make small adjustments as you go.

Thanks! Im all over it!:hello: