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View Full Version : Adding Complex Carbs POSTWORKOUT On NHE..



MonStar1023
04-06-2002, 01:13 AM
I have decided to add 3/4 - 1 cup, probably 1 cup, of oatmeal postworkout while following NHE. This will be after every training session whether its a refeed day/meal or not. This way Ill be taking advantage of the postworkout protein + carbs etc. Here are some quotes from Severed Ties article this month that talk about how bad it is while following a low carb diet and not getting postworkout carbs.

"Weight Training and Recovery- Training is obviously limited due to insufficient glycogen stores but ever wonder why recovery is so poor on a reduced carb diet? In a true carb depleted state it takes 24 hours after lifting for protein synthesis to shift into a positive balance. Since protein synthesis can only be in a positive or negative balance this would mean that every bodybuilder who works out two or more days in a row would get smaller because successive workout from the first would drive a person deeper and deeper into a catabolic nightmare. Even with workouts scheduled every other day one would only get about 24 hours of anabolism before protein synthesis comes to a screeching halt from the next workout."

... This paragraph discusses it briefly, but here Severed Ties goes into more detail.

"In terms of overall growth, recovery can be spurred in as little as 4 hours with rapid glycogen replenishment post workout. In a 48-hour period a carb depleted trainee will spend 24 hours in catabolic state and 24 hours in anabolic state if workouts are not on successive days. Whereas a non-depleted trainee will spend 44 hours in anabolic state and only 4 hours in a catabolic state, or 20 anabolic and 4 catabolic if workouts are done successively. The first problem is exercise recovery is literally almost cut in half; the other problem with this is up to 40% of your dietary protein can be converted to glucose when carbs are heavily restricted. Since the body can only absorb so much protein per sitting it becomes near impossible to optimize protein intake when 40% of what is absorbed is being lost to glucose conversion. No doubt about it 40% is huge! A 200 lb bodybuilder taking in 300 grams of protein a day to meet his 1.5 grams per pound of bodyweight is losing up to 120 grams of protein to gluconeogenesis; leaving only 180 grams of protein for muscle cells, not even 1 gram per pound of bodyweight. In this case a 200 lb bodybuilder would have to consume about 500 grams of protein per day to meet his optimal daily protein needs. 500 grams/day not even considering the arguments about maximum protein absorption per feeding or even the exorbitant cost, have you ever tried to eat this much protein? I think you would find it to be quite the endeavor for just a day, let alone week in and week out.

So recovery and protein intake are not optimized with carb reduction plans, hell they are barely even adequate." :thumbup::thumbup:

... Do you all think that oatmeal postworkout will be a good idea, etc. While following NHE. Its not like NHE is a ketogenic diet anyway. And 10g of the 54g in a cup of oatmeal are fiber.

MS

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-06-2002, 05:32 AM
If you take in carbs after training then it won;t be NHE.

The idea of the whole diet is to maximise hGH for fat burning purposes (and other hormones for anabolic hormones of course).

I know some folk say that the effect of a hGH release is negible, but i think that many releases will make a difference.

If you take in carbs post workout you'll inhibit this release.

If you're burning more cals then you take in then you will still drop weight, but by doing so it won;t be an "official" NHE plan anymore.

It's up to you.

MonStar1023
04-06-2002, 07:19 AM
The_Chicken_Daddy-
Yeah but thats what I dont get man. Rob says that your carb limit is like 60g per day. 54g from oatmeal with 10g of fiber or some sh*t really comes out to like 44g of complex carbs. I wouldnt be going over 60g for daily total. Also Rob suggests/recommends high water content fruit on low-carb days. Whatsup with that? :confused::confused:

MS

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-06-2002, 07:22 AM
he says the only active carbs you should take in on low carb days are ones that are by-products of protein, fat and green veg sources.

MonStar1023
04-06-2002, 07:28 AM
The_Chicken_Daddy-
Check out page 151 of NHE man. In bold down the page Ill quote.

"High-fiber/high-water-content (HIFWAC) fruits and non-starchy vegetables are ideal for optimizing thermogenesis. Conversely, consuming carbohydrate foods lower in water and fiber will force you to miniaturize your portion sizes in order to stay within carb limits. HIFWAC fruits are less carbohydrate-dense, and thus have greater thermogenic value per unit of carbohydrate than do other fruits."
... The paragraph directly above the one I quoted is also a good one on fruit consumption. :cool::cool: Here is a list of HIFWAC fruits listed in NHE.

apples
apricots
blueberries
cherries
grapes
peaches
pears
rasberries
strawberries
MS

MonStar1023
04-06-2002, 07:32 AM
What you said about it not being NHE, my basic guideline for NHE is sound. Low/no carbs and then carbing up twice a week. I have modified it though as you know. I am taking in protein + carbs in my carbup meals, and minimizing fat. Rob suggests low protein. Instances like this I do not following NHE to the letter, and I think I am getting better results. I dont know, complex carbs postworkout may be a big step towards me modifying NHE but your body needs carbs postworkout, otherwise your recovery etc. is completely f*cked. :eek::eek:

MS

Logo
04-06-2002, 07:35 AM
I don't know much about NHE but I don't know why you'd want to use complex carbs for postworkout. First of all they require large amounts of alkalines to digest while protein requires acid. When present at the same time, they cancel each other out. Therefor getting large amounts of complex carbs and protein together can hinder digestion to a point. Is that exactly what you want post-workout? Didn't think so. Besides, a simple carb will create a larger insulin spike which has the added benefit of shuttling nutrients into muscle tissue.

MonStar1023
04-06-2002, 07:48 AM
Logo-
Well emphasized in NHE is keeping your insulin levels down in the down cycle of NHE. Taking in a high glycemic carb like dextrose or maltodextrin would as you said great a larger insulin spike, even though that maybe beneficial, oatmeal wont stimulate my insulin levels that much and I think the fiber will help with the digestion/absorption + 500 mg. ALA. :D:D

MS

MonStar1023
04-06-2002, 07:55 AM
... Also since I will be taking in 54g of carbs from 1 cup of oatmeal and around 40-45g whey protein, Ill definitely be dropping the flax seed oil and/or heavy whipping cream. :thumbup::thumbup:

MS

MonStar1023
04-06-2002, 07:57 AM
I honestly could just take in a Myoplex MRP with a cup of skim milk postworkout if I didnt want to go with the oatmeal for some reason, that would come out to around 50g protein and like 35-40g of carbs. :p:p

MS

MonStar1023
04-06-2002, 08:09 AM
I didnt even think about it but I guess adding a cup of oatmeal postworkout would make NHE a lot like the T-Dawg diet or a TKD. Crazy sh*t. :D:D

MS

MarshallPenn
04-06-2002, 08:17 AM
I think flax post workout is great. Maybe it does nothing, but makes my protein shakes taste awesome. I've read somewhere that it's good to put fat into your post-workout mix, but perhaps there is no scientific reasoning for this.

MS - That's why I was saying fruit juice. I've never heard of complex-carbs post workout.

the doc
04-06-2002, 08:20 AM
monstar you will also see that he says a maximum of 25 g of carbs in any single meal

if you want oats then limit it to less than 25 g

like chicken said, otherwise it wont be NHE

and it would only be a TKD if you limited carb consumption to only post workout.

MonStar1023
04-06-2002, 08:20 AM
MarshallPenn-
You think flax seed oil tastes awesome! Have you lost you damn mine bro!? Gag me. :(:(

MS

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-06-2002, 08:21 AM
TKD also has pre-workout carbs.

the doc
04-06-2002, 08:21 AM
the other thing is i dont dipute much of what ST said, but your goals are fat loss, and recovery will always be comprimised on a below maintanance diet...

MonStar1023
04-06-2002, 08:22 AM
the doc-
My carb consumption really is only postworkout, other than that my meals are pretty much moderate fat and protein and close to zero carbs. Maybe just a 1/2 cup of oatmeal then postworkout? Would this even make a difference? I guess some carbs would be better than none at all huh? :cool::cool:

MS

MonStar1023
04-06-2002, 08:23 AM
I know that recovery will not be optimal while dieting, but I think that the addition of a little bit of carbs postworkout can make a big difference. ;);)

MS

MonStar1023
04-06-2002, 11:08 AM
bump... thinking about maybe dextrose/maltodextrin instead.. :cool::cool:

MS

MarshallPenn
04-06-2002, 01:35 PM
Monstar - Flax on it's own does taste pretty nasty IMO, but when I mix it in my shake with peaches and yogurt it gives it a malty flavor and tastes completely different for some reason. It's really good!

mdirrane12
04-06-2002, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by MonStar1023
The_Chicken_Daddy-
Yeah but thats what I dont get man. Rob says that your carb limit is like 60g per day. 54g from oatmeal with 10g of fiber or some sh*t really comes out to like 44g of complex carbs. I wouldnt be going over 60g for daily total. Also Rob suggests/recommends high water content fruit on low-carb days. Whatsup with that?
:confused::confused:

In NHE, HIFWAC fruits are recommended for promoting health, not for bodybuilding purposes. Considering the emphasis Rob places on starchy carbs over sugary carbs in the carb-load I dont think he'd recommend fruit during the downcycle for bodybuilders because that is the time when you are trying to DEPLETE liver glycogen. But according to a T-mag article, fruit will improve insulin sensitivity and help you with bodybuilding. Rob recommends the extreme form of NHE for bodybuilding purposes which is as little carbs in the downcycle as possible and as much starchy as possible in the upcycle. That leaves no room for fruit. Not all that Rob says is true. For example, he says that protein above 1g is bad for your kidneys and causes fat gain. Im not sure about the fat gain but I know that the kidney problem is wrong.

40% protein lost to glucose?!!! But does that apply to sugar-burning or fat-burning metabolisms? Being glycogen-depleted is not as bad when you are a fat burner. This is because you have an advantage that sugar-burners dont have and that is that you have greater storage of intramuscular triglyceride. THAT WILL ENHANCE RECOVERY. Triglyceride becomes the analog to glycogen.

For protein in the carb-load, you know thats only because it might cause gastrointestinal distress. If you dont have GI distress it shouldnt be a problem.

Keep in mind that the more carbs you put in the downcycle the lesser your insulin sensitivity will be in the upcycle. So you are chopping up the anabolic benefits of insulin into divided doses AND losing the fat-burning benefits.




MS

mdirrane12
04-06-2002, 07:12 PM
By putting oatmeal in your post-workout meal you are losing the growth hormone-boosting, testosterone-boosting, anti-catabolic, anabolic benefits of Omega 3 and monounsaturated fat. And what about triglyceride replenishment? Theres a time and place for oatmeal and its in the carb-load.

I FORGOT GLUTAMINE. An experiment has proven that glutamine post-workout is just as effective as a 61g dose of glucose at replenishing muscle glycogen. J.Appl.Physiol.86;6:1770-1777, 1999. Creatine is another supplement that accelerates glycogen synthesis.

MonStar1023
04-06-2002, 08:16 PM
mdirrane12-
Dude I am taking glutamine peptides postworkout! Along with creatine and Aminogen, with some whey protein. And now 40g of carbs coming from dextrose and maltodextrin. Creatine and glutamine peptides and all that arent as effective without the rush of insulin. Now Ill have 40g whey protein, 40g dextrose/maltodextrin, 5g creatine, 5g glutamine peptides, 500 mg. ALA, and 250 mg. Aminogen. :thumbup::thumbup:

MS

MonStar1023
04-06-2002, 08:19 PM
Can someone please lemme know whether what mdirrane12 posted here is legit or not? Because I thought that adding postworkout carbs was an all out plus.

40% protein lost to glucose?!!! But does that apply to sugar-burning or fat-burning metabolisms? Being glycogen-depleted is not as bad when you are a fat burner. This is because you have an advantage that sugar-burners dont have and that is that you have greater storage of intramuscular triglyceride. THAT WILL ENHANCE RECOVERY. Triglyceride becomes the analog to glycogen.

For protein in the carb-load, you know thats only because it might cause gastrointestinal distress. If you dont have GI distress it shouldnt be a problem.

Keep in mind that the more carbs you put in the downcycle the lesser your insulin sensitivity will be in the upcycle. So you are chopping up the anabolic benefits of insulin into divided doses AND losing the fat-burning benefits.
MS