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View Full Version : for all raw lifter , what is your way to train max effort ??



xolix
01-28-2009, 01:48 PM
a big difference to the normal westside routine ? boxsquats,deadliftvariations,good mornings and so on ?

i use a program from matt rhodes , where i squat every week with 5,3 or 1 rm and a deload week , and as a second exercise i go for a deadliftvariation (rackpulls,chaindeads or something like this..) i think its a good template, but i am interessted in typically westside routine , but for a raw dude ...

dbcb314
01-28-2009, 01:56 PM
I have had success with the following for squats...

- squats
- squats with wraps
- olympic style squats
- box squats
- box squats with bands (#4 usually, sometimes #3 or both)
- reverse band box squats (#4)

I never used GM's... i was never comfortable doing ME goodmornings. Always kept those to somethign like 3x5 or 5x5.

(for reference, best raw squat is 555 in wraps and belt... bw lil over 230 at the time)

xolix
01-28-2009, 02:05 PM
I have had success with the following for squats...

- squats
- squats with wraps
- olympic style squats
- box squats
- box squats with bands (#4 usually, sometimes #3 or both)
- reverse band box squats (#4)

I never used GM's... i was never comfortable doing ME goodmornings. Always kept those to somethign like 3x5 or 5x5.

(for reference, best raw squat is 555 in wraps and belt... bw lil over 230 at the time)

no pulling ?

dbcb314
01-28-2009, 03:44 PM
no pulling ?
Pulling always did more to hinder than help my squat.

Athos
01-29-2009, 06:41 AM
I train with most of the same movements as Louie mentions in his book/articles. The only difference is I try to include more full-range movements, as Louie suggested. So while I still board press, I also do incline bench, decline, close grip, extra-wide grip and dumbell work. Same applies to squats, I incorporate more full-range variations when I can. Now on deadlift, the training is pretty much the exact same, you don't get much out of a suit on the DL, so reason would stand that you can train the same way, rack pulls, deadlifts on a platform, lightened deadlifts, sumo and convential pulls, deadlifts with chains, bands, weight releasers, etc. I've been training WSB for years raw and it has produced.

Brad08
01-29-2009, 07:42 AM
a big difference to the normal westside routine ? boxsquats,deadliftvariations,good mornings and so on ?

i use a program from matt rhodes , where i squat every week with 5,3 or 1 rm and a deload week , and as a second exercise i go for a deadliftvariation (rackpulls,chaindeads or something like this..) i think its a good template, but i am interessted in typically westside routine , but for a raw dude ...

I don't know if I'm qualified to give advice really but I lift raw and have made some progress the past few years (when you start at zero, you can only go up lol). \

The training isn't that much different, IMHO. You can still do all the squat variations and use bands and chains. You will have a differnt stance probably and will probably naturally go a little deeper due to the mechanics of raw vs. geared but you can still box squat, use cambered bars, etc. You will still need to work your weak points, you just might have diffeent weak points than the geared guys (e.g., you may need more work out of the hole since you don't get support from a suit...then again, you'll probably be lifting less weight than geared guys so maybe it's all a wash).

You might have to take more care of your hips than guys using gear in terms of prehab, warming up, etc. And IIRC, your chain cycles should use a bit heavier bar weight than a geared lifted (I recall that raw DE bench uses slightly higher percentages than geared DE bench, so maybe 60-70% instaed of 50-60% bar weight).

GerSmith
01-29-2009, 08:16 AM
I have to say that my raw squat only moves up when I do full range raw squats in any form. balls to walls training with any rep range; 3s,5s,6s,8s. Geared lifting requires you to be stronger in specific areas and that's where box squats and variations come into play, but for raw squatting, Just squat, front squat, high bar squat,leg press etc. thats what has helped me and even though i'm young, I've done the trial and error thing with regards to this matter.

You can notice there from the recent raw unity meet, that most guys seemed to use traditional methods in peaking for the meet. Celli did lots of full range squatting including full range reverse bands. Same with schwab and Talament. Whereas most geared lifters have the option to use methods such as circa max to help them peak for meets. Only full range squatting is done at the end of Circa max in the deload phase.

Don't get me wrong. I would still endorse the bands and chains and boxes approach. It just never worked for me personally

Brad08
01-29-2009, 08:35 AM
Don't get me wrong. I would still endorse the bands and chains and boxes approach. It just never worked for me personally

That's interesting. So you did better when you just practiced the competition lift, basically? I think of band and chains variations as basically full range lifts, just with a different groove/feel, but I"m new to them. I don't know where they'll take me.

Fuzzy
01-29-2009, 01:11 PM
Just a thought:

Westside is a program for geared lifters. The impact on the body from having 800 pounds compared to 550 is a HUGE difference. Westside is designed with this factor in mind.

I personally beleive the human body can handle much much much more than what Westside demands, simply because the weights are not so big.

Just a thought.

miked96
01-29-2009, 02:13 PM
I dont think Westside (Conjugate Periodization) is about bands, chains, boxes, gear training etc. Its about dividing your training into ME days and DE days with some accessories. Dont get caught up in that other ****. The idea is that you need to train with weights over 90% (ME day) but if you come in and max out on the same exercise every ME day you are going to burn yourself out. So you can alternate the real exercise with ones that build the ones you want to improve. The DE day is to train your explosivness in the lift. What ME exercises you do are up to you and you dont need accomdating resistance for it to be Westside. Try alternating Squats, Block pulls, box squats, and deadlifts on ME day. The exercises will give you plenty of hard work and you will avoid burning out. Thats just my opinion.

GerSmith
01-29-2009, 04:09 PM
That's interesting. So you did better when you just practiced the competition lift, basically? I think of band and chains variations as basically full range lifts, just with a different groove/feel, but I"m new to them. I don't know where they'll take me.

yes, that's it in a nut shell. I done a LOT of raw work based on the conjugate style (with and without use of chains and bands) and it just didn't improve my raw squat as much as full range raw squats have. I'm hardly a veteran to the sport so perhaps in a few years time when things move slower, i will revisit the conjugate method for my raw squat to gain those extra few pounds, but right now, it just hasn't done my raw lifting any justice. In saying that, it had tremendous positive effects on my geared squat though.

Just something to note is that Jim Wendler and others who used his 5/3/1 program have gotten great gains, and Jim's own raw strength is better now than ever. All he does is practise the big 3 + accessory.

Travis Bell
01-29-2009, 04:33 PM
Just a thought:

Westside is a program for geared lifters. The impact on the body from having 800 pounds compared to 550 is a HUGE difference. Westside is designed with this factor in mind.

I personally beleive the human body can handle much much much more than what Westside demands, simply because the weights are not so big.

Just a thought.

There really isn't anything in that statement I'd agree with, but especially the bolded part.

I find it interesting when guys who have never even talked to Lou can so clearly speak on how the program was designed or what it was designed for.

Sean S
01-29-2009, 04:50 PM
Using a very basic westside template can certainly work to increase your raw strength. It worked well for my raw strength when I first started into powerlifting. Pick a few (4-6) ME exercises to rotate, do the DE work, and do the normal accessory work for the lower back, hamstrings, abs, triceps, upper back, etc...
What is the problem with the template from Matt Rhodes you are currently using? Think about this so you don't become one of those people who constantly changes programs and never gets optimal results because they never stick with anything long enough for it to work. If you're relatively new to all this, pick a program and stick with it. Don't starting mixing and matching different parts of different programs. Very experienced lifters can adjust things and come up with there own programs. If you're not there yet, pick a program or template and stick with it.

Darracq
01-29-2009, 05:32 PM
I am doing the 5,3,1 and it is working great, i think you should do some cycles on the 5,3,1 and then do some westside type trainig for awhile keep switching back and forth. When i get board of doing the reps, i will do some max effort stuff for awhile.

Travis Bell
01-29-2009, 07:56 PM
Darracq, this isn't pointed at you, but I wouldn't recommend that. Pick a program and stick with it. There are many programs that will work, but few that will work well if you switch back and fourth leaving them incomplete every time.

xolix
01-30-2009, 11:17 AM
Using a very basic westside template can certainly work to increase your raw strength. It worked well for my raw strength when I first started into powerlifting. Pick a few (4-6) ME exercises to rotate, do the DE work, and do the normal accessory work for the lower back, hamstrings, abs, triceps, upper back, etc...
What is the problem with the template from Matt Rhodes you are currently using? Think about this so you don't become one of those people who constantly changes programs and never gets optimal results because they never stick with anything long enough for it to work. If you're relatively new to all this, pick a program and stick with it. Don't starting mixing and matching different parts of different programs. Very experienced lifters can adjust things and come up with there own programs. If you're not there yet, pick a program or template and stick with it.

not a problem,just interessted how could be a old-school westside raw template for squat/deadlift ...

i have a max effort-day and a dynamic effort -day for upper and lower body.. my ME-squat/dl-workouts looks like this : squat (5-3-1rm),second exercise a me-deadliftvariation (5-3-1rm), quads , lower back and abs ....
my DE-workout : box-squats (deeper than parallel) 8 x 60-70% x 2, speed pulls with chains or bands 6 x 1 , hamstrings, traps, abs and calves....
i deload every 4th week complete (bench and sq/dl)

my squat raw at this time is 508 lbs (230 kg) ...since 3 months ... my deadlift went up very well, but my squat is a bit stagnating ...

i look for some other views or ideas to change something for comming further ...

Darracq
01-30-2009, 04:05 PM
Darracq, this isn't pointed at you, but I wouldn't recommend that. Pick a program and stick with it. There are many programs that will work, but few that will work well if you switch back and fourth leaving them incomplete every time.

I didnt mean switch back and forth every week or even month, I would do one or the other most of the time and change it up when your get board or quit making gains that just my 2 cents though.

Travis Bell
01-30-2009, 04:46 PM
I guess my biggest beef with people who say "Westside doesn't work for raw lifters" or "I made no/little progress using a Westside template" they just give up!

Fuzzy is wrong, it works great for raw lifters. When I prepare for a raw meet, I don't quit using a Westside template LOL. Vincent Dizenzo used a Westside template to help him achieve a 600lb raw bench. When Lou first started designing it, gear was very very minimal compared to what it is today. Even now, the majority of our training is done in little gear.

If we only did raw meets, people would say Westside only works for raw lifters, but since we typically do equipped meets, of course it can only work for equipped lifters LOL

The biggest mistake people make is picking the WRONG ME exercises. Figure out what your weaknesses are. Then pick a ME exercise that will force you to fix that weakness. Get time under the bar! Don't jump right to your max and quit. Make sure you are getting enough volume in.

Figure it out. Be smart .

jbrin0tk
01-30-2009, 06:47 PM
I agree with Travis about, well everything he says, haha, but especially what he said about the volume. I bought Louie's book and one of the key concepts that he talks about over and over again throughout it is raising volume and work capacity consistently as a means of getting stronger. I took a step back and analyzed my own training and realized that I was putting in the time and effort, but I wasn't focused on trying to raise my volume and work capacity. I've made it a focus of my training these past few months (ME stuff, supplemental, and assistance as well as upping GPP work) by upping the weights used, reps, or sets completed and my lifts have taken off since. I cannot recommend that book enough. I'm nowhere near the level of many on this forum, but I know that this has worked well for me.

SELK
01-31-2009, 01:38 AM
When I trained raw I just stuck to more basic, bigger ROM lifts.

for lower stuff like:
box squats, free squats, squats against light bands, full deads, rack pulls, etc

for upper:
bench, cg bench, inclines, declines etc.


When people say westside doesnt work for raw lifters, they are usually just doing the wrong things like Travis said. Maxing out your 4 and 5 board presses isn't going to do much for a raw lifter.

Brad08
01-31-2009, 07:17 AM
good stuff Travis

Ryan Celli
01-31-2009, 07:52 AM
How long have you been lifting and how long have you been competing?
What are your numbers in all three lifts?

Westside is great and works for many people, geared or raw. Travis and Donnie Thompson are great examples of westside lifters doing great at raw. You may have to tweek the template to fit your raw needs. Raw lifters need bottom end power, where the geared lifters have the gear to help them with their bottom end. The geared lifters want extreme top end power to carry them through the lift.

If you are new to lifting and new to competing, I suggest mastering the three lifts first. A box squat is totally different than a raw squat and WS incorporates box squats everytime the squat, if i'm not mistaken..just as an example.

Westside has many great variations of the 3 lifts, I use many of them here and there in my training, mostly off season.

Hope this helps. Ryan

xolix
01-31-2009, 02:48 PM
How long have you been lifting and how long have you been competing?
What are your numbers in all three lifts?

Westside is great and works for many people, geared or raw. Travis and Donnie Thompson are great examples of westside lifters doing great at raw. You may have to tweek the template to fit your raw needs. Raw lifters need bottom end power, where the geared lifters have the gear to help them with their bottom end. The geared lifters want extreme top end power to carry them through the lift.

If you are new to lifting and new to competing, I suggest mastering the three lifts first. A box squat is totally different than a raw squat and WS incorporates box squats everytime the squat, if i'm not mistaken..just as an example.

Westside has many great variations of the 3 lifts, I use many of them here and there in my training, mostly off season.

Hope this helps. Ryan

hello, ryan.. generally i lift since 15 years , and since 4 years for powerlifting
my lifts are : 365 lbs bench (competition) , 617,4 lbs deadlift (comp.) and 507 lbs (training) all RAW. not big numbers but i do what i can... my bench-training is very basic westside and works well for me, using 2board,1board,floorpress,chainbench/bandbench for 1 rm and do speedwork and planed deloadsessions every 4th week . acessory lifts are close grip bench ,3or4boardpress for 5 rm .

for my deadlift and squat i train squats for squat with 5-3-1 rm method and for deadlift lockouts , chaindeads deads ,sumodeads after my squats ...i use a speedday too(boxsquats straight,chains or bands) and then speed pulls 6 x 1 with bands or chains . acessory lifts are good mornings, boxdeadlifts, pullthrus and so on..

hmmm yes thats my system .. but i want to get better with my raw squat !!

Brad08
01-31-2009, 04:01 PM
my lifts are : 365 lbs bench (competition) , 617,4 lbs deadlift (comp.) and 507 lbs (training) all RAW. not big numbers but i do what i can...


FWIW I think those are good numbers.

GerSmith
02-01-2009, 05:04 PM
I would agree with brad. Provided you dont weight a metric tonne, thats good going!

xolix
02-02-2009, 05:37 AM
I would agree with brad. Provided you dont weight a metric tonne, thats good going!

hmm thanx , but my bwt. is 243 lbs ... not big and not too small numbers ^^

RonnyB
02-11-2009, 07:56 AM
Just a thought:

Westside is a program for geared lifters. The impact on the body from having 800 pounds compared to 550 is a HUGE difference. Westside is designed with this factor in mind.

I personally beleive the human body can handle much much much more than what Westside demands, simply because the weights are not so big.

Just a thought.

agreed, good post.

Phillip Wylie
02-13-2009, 10:04 AM
I switched my focus from multi ply powerlifting to raw after APF Masters Nationals last May. I have been using the 5/3/1 program since the middle of August and I have had great results. After 5 waves on the program I put 55lbs on my deadlift, 37lbs on my bench press, and improved my squat from 551lbs breaking parallel to USAPL depth. My bodyweight is 15lbs lighter than when I first squatted 551lbs.

I used to use the Westside/conjugate method when I competed in gear. I also used it raw. You just have to make sure you are using exercises that improve your weak points and give you the best carry over. I think one of the most neglected pieces of Westside is that lifters don't do enough repeated effort stuff and focus only on DE and ME. This is an area I neglected as well.

Doctor T
03-22-2009, 10:41 AM
There really isn't anything in that statement I'd agree with, but especially the bolded part.

I find it interesting when guys who have never even talked to Lou can so clearly speak on how the program was designed or what it was designed for.

I tore my left rotator cuff 15 months ago in the middle of a Westside regime doing bench pin presses (pins were 2" off my chest) with 315. I have rehabbed it, but need to be aware of it. I have stayed away from doing any really heavy singles lately, but the shoudler feels pretty strong now. I started doing Halbert's H-swings with dumbbells and those have helped quite a bit.
Right before the shoulder gave out, I blew up the bursa sac in my left elbow, probably from doing speed bench with bands. I had it drained and put cortizone in it. With all this in mind, Travis, what kind of a raw bench program would you recommend for a masters (45 year old) trainee?