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mike95763
02-03-2009, 02:53 PM
About a week and a half ago I switched up my routine to have an ME and a "DE" squat/deadlift day. I don't really care for a traditional DE day for my bench press so I thought I would try more of an RE day for squats and deads as well. This is an example of my "DE" workout

Squat 135 x 3, 225 x 3, 315 x 3, 335 x 10
Deads 315 x 12
Barbell Hack Squat 315 x 10
GMs 315 x 10
abs

Prior to this change I felt consistantly like I was overtraining (crappy) and now I feel like I have a ton of energy for my ME days. I recently did box squats (3 inches above parallel) with 495 for a set of 5 (big PR) then 15 minutes later pulled 505 sumo style (I am a conventional puller and usually pull 50+ lbs more conventional than sumo) for a 70 lb PR and I probably had more in the tank. Just curious if anyone has done something similar, or if anyone has any idea why doing so much rep work is helping my lifts so much.

BigTallOx
02-03-2009, 03:34 PM
I recently did box squats (3 inches above parallel) with 495 for a set of 5 (big PR) then 15 minutes later pulled 505 sumo style (I am a conventional puller and usually pull 50+ lbs more conventional than sumo) for a 70 lb PR and I probably had more in the tank. (snip) if anyone has any idea why doing so much rep work is helping my lifts so much.

I have no idea as to the reason why, but good job. That's awesome.

mike95763
02-03-2009, 05:31 PM
I have no idea as to the reason why, but good job. That's awesome.

Thanks BTO, I missed last week so I didn't get to see how my bench has been affected (although I did set a PR with dumbbells last Saturday night, 150 x 1) so I am totally jacked for this weekend to see how things are going there. Are you planning on going heavy this Saturday or are you tapering for the meet?

bigdayday
02-03-2009, 05:32 PM
I personally think the dynamic effort work (with bands/chains) is intended and works best for the heavier already strong as hell top level strength athletes (such as westside barbell). Not saying your weak or small, but I think a more average lifter, responds better to repetition work and box jumps for dynamic work. Like in the Joe Defranco's WS4SB, if you have not read this you can get it for free on elitefts. I am training an mma fighter who is making great strength gains on that program, he is not following the exact program the way it is written. But does box jumps for lower body dynamic day and repetition work with dumbells, replacing the upper body dynamic day. I think these lighter days are saving his body for the more important max effort days like you are describing. Most smaller and lighter athletes can not handle and recuperate from all the heavy barbell work like is outlined in the regular westside template. Once you get up to a certain strength level, then the true dynamic work might be better for you. But as you described right now it isn't. So stick with what works for you.

BigTallOx
02-03-2009, 09:15 PM
Are you planning on going heavy this Saturday or are you tapering for the meet?

No I'm not going heavy Saturday, I'm just working up to my opener, and then some relatively light accessory work.

Travis Bell
02-03-2009, 09:19 PM
I personally think the dynamic effort work (with bands/chains) is intended and works best for the heavier already strong as hell top level strength athletes (such as westside barbell). Not saying your weak or small, but I think a more average lifter, responds better to repetition work and box jumps for dynamic work. Like in the Joe Defranco's WS4SB, if you have not read this you can get it for free on elitefts. I am training an mma fighter who is making great strength gains on that program, he is not following the exact program the way it is written. But does box jumps for lower body dynamic day and repetition work with dumbells, replacing the upper body dynamic day. I think these lighter days are saving his body for the more important max effort days like you are describing. Most smaller and lighter athletes can not handle and recuperate from all the heavy barbell work like is outlined in the regular westside template. Once you get up to a certain strength level, then the true dynamic work might be better for you. But as you described right now it isn't. So stick with what works for you.

I'd disagree here, although I appreciate the compliment

We didn't walk into Westside and just happen to be strong. I started doing DE work when I was benching around 350 raw. I'd been doing it before then, but not quite correctly.

Ben Moore
02-03-2009, 09:46 PM
I'd disagree here, although I appreciate the compliment

We didn't walk into Westside and just happen to be strong. I started doing DE work when I was benching around 350 raw. I'd been doing it before then, but not quite correctly.

Agreed - it's a means to and end, not a means for those gifted.

mike95763
02-03-2009, 09:56 PM
I personally think the dynamic effort work (with bands/chains) is intended and works best for the heavier already strong as hell top level strength athletes (such as westside barbell).

I am not sure I really agree with this either, although I appreciate your comments and think your post may apply very well to me. I just don't think that DE days work very well for me right now (I do use bands and chains on my ME days and feel accommidating resistance is very beneficial). Maybe I am not doing DE work properly as I really struggle with form when I am trying for maximal speed and power on a lighter weight. I tend to keep better form on my RE work, maybe that is why it is working out better for me right now?

bigdayday
02-04-2009, 08:15 PM
I'm not trying to argue! Just discussing training views with an open mind! Yes, I have to agree that everyone that walks into westside barbell might not be a world class strength athlete, but for the most part they are alot stronger than the average joe with alot more experience. (Travis Bell) A 350 raw bench for your bw at the time I'm sure was very respectable. Like you even mentioned you were not performing your dynamic work properly at the time and Mike95763 stated that he struggles with form on dynamic work. When aren't you suppose to concentrate alot on form with dynamic work? Now for a less skilled athlete who has a hard time performing dynamic work (which i have seen), or a hard time recovering from it. Wouldn't it be better for them to train with more of a repetition method and work on building muscle/size/and form that way. I have even read some big benchers (Mike Wolf) replacing alot of dynamic days with repetition/ dumbell work and making good gains by doing it. Yes, I believe in the benefits of dynamic work (I have alot in my training right now) and what comes out of Louie Simmons. But not everyone can training the same or get the same benefits from training the same.

What I said about how I personally think the dynamic effort work (with bands/chains) is intended and works best for the heavier already strong as hell top level strength athletes (such as westside barbell). I meant in a general way, not just westside. But lets stop and look at some of Louie's articles about explosive leg strength. Talking about box jumps/plyometrics, he stated that olympic throwers with great numbers (400 lb power cleans/500 lb front squats/ 500 lb raw benches). Where stuck with there throwing distances, until they added in box jumps. Then they started to make gains again. Now these athletes were already strong as hell and nothing was helping until they added in the dynamic work. The dynamic work is to teach a rapid rate of force production. Now wouldn't it be better for a average joe/ beginner/ intermidiate to obtain a certain amount of size and strength. Until there lifts become slow and it's apparent that they need speed work. Before you worry about them trying to exert maximal force against the bar, which at the time they will probably have very little of.

would appreciate any thoughts on this if you take the time to read it all.

mike95763
02-04-2009, 09:15 PM
Bigdayday, I can only speak from personal experience, but in general I would agree with you to a large extent. I don't necessarily think that it makes as much difference how strong a person is initially, but rather how fast a person with the weight they are lifting. Many beginning lifters tend to be fairly fast with the weights that they can handle but as the weight increases it becomes increasingly difficult to have the same speed, hence more DE work may be necessary. For me I am still pretty fast and explosive with the weights that I lift so DE work has not done much for me yet. But I have also known lifters who are not yet top level athletes, but have a lot of trouble moving any amount of weight quickly and with explosiveness. For these people I think DE work would help. Anyhow, what you said makes sence to me and I agree with it. I too am interested to see what some of the more experienced trainers/lifters who frequent this forum think.

Travis Bell
02-04-2009, 10:40 PM
We've actually had some very good discussions on it before. If you use the search function you'll find them I'm sure

Ben Moore
02-04-2009, 11:06 PM
What fun would that be?