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Waterhouse
02-19-2009, 04:21 PM
Right now I am currently 16 years old, 5'9 and 135 pounds. I am pretty strong for my age but I can't seem to find any workouts that help me out with my problem. Please if you could post a workout routine that will help me on the mat that would be greatly appreciated. I realize that the only way to get better at BJJ is to get in there and roll and I do that but I would like to get some workouts that can help me while I'm in the weight room. I DO NOT want to get any bigger. I am happy where I am and I am trying to get to a weight of 125. I've been there before but I just kinda let myself go lately.

Thank you and have a nice day. =)

Hazerboy
02-19-2009, 04:38 PM
Your 5'9 and 135 lbs? I used to be at that weight when I was 15, at around 5'10, in a very similar sport: wrestling. My coaches always told me that being a tall lanky guy meant I would have a leverage advantage, but it was total bull****. Every time I wrestled some guy who was 5'5 and jacked I would get my ass kicked. Once I put some some serious muscle though I started noticing something - I didn't get schooled anymore in the tie up. I wouldn't get pushed around around so much while in the bottom position. Suddenly I started finishing all of my takedowns, whereas before I would just get crazy penetration then exhaust myself trying to finish. When I started wrestling I was 5'9, 125 lbs and four years later i wrestled at 5'10, 171. Suffice it to say, by my senior year I no longer got out muscled. I didn't cut as much weight either, and felt better and competed better because of it, though thats an entirely different story.

I can understand you're wish to get stronger without getting larger. Getting stronger without getting larger involves training your nervous system to become more efficient - teaching your muscles to fire faster and recruit more fibers to do the same task. this is how sprinters become faster and weightlifters get stronger without gaining a pound. If you imagine your body as a car, you can either get stronger by getting a bigger engine or by making your engine more efficient. You're trying to do the latter.

That being said, its incredibly difficult to train your muscles to become more efficient and stronger when you don't have hardly any muscle to begin with. At 5'9 and 135, you're all skin and bones man. I know cause I've been there. You're at you're height and weight you're a VW bug - sure you could soup up your engine, but by the end of the day you would still be just a souped up VW bug. You would benefit greatly from putting on 10 or 20 lbs. on top of that, its going to be a lot easier to make progress and add weight to the bar if you put on some weight.

In my opinion, your height and your style should determine the optimal weight for you to compete at. Most guys who are at 135 or 125 and have success are pretty short, though of course there are exceptions.

Anyways, if you still don't wanna put on any weight, you're going to have to give us your stats for us to help you. What is your best bench, deadlift, squat, and row? How is your squat form? Can you hit rock bottom? Whats your weight training experience? Its hard to recommend you a routine without knowing these things.

LoneJeeper
02-19-2009, 05:18 PM
i've wrestled and done a ton of BJJ. I've found that guys with muscle usually gassed faster. I did a bunch of grip training and endurance-based strongman stuff. You won't benefit from leverage really, but flexibility will come to you easier. BJJ isn't as much about strength as wrestling is.

ZenMonkey
02-19-2009, 06:34 PM
I think hes a troll. He posted this in 2 other sections

KingJustin
02-19-2009, 08:00 PM
First:
As someone that practiced BJJ/MMA for awhile, I strongly suggest that you do gain weight. 135 lbs at 5'9?
A lot of these coaches don't know **** about strength & conditioning or optimal weight/performance. They just know that for most guys, if you come in as a fat ass then you're going to suck, so they have the kids lose weight. What you really want is to be an ideal weight for your height/frame with a very low body fat percentage. This doesn't mean you have to look emaciated. If you want to go far in the sport in the future, I strongly suggest gaining about 80 lbs (and then cutting and repeating until you get to 205 @ 6% body fat and then before matches cutting to 190).

Myths: Jacked people gas easy. Technically could be sort of true, except if you follow my advice gassing will absolutely positively not be an issue.
Jacked people are not flexible. That's just stupid. Go do your stretches and you'll be flexible. Ronnie Coleman is twice as big as you and he can do the splits.

My second suggestion is an actual answer to your question.
The most optimal thing you can do is probably just go through a bunch of crossfit metcons and don't do anything else for about 6 months.
Go to http://www.crossfit.com and look at the thing in the middle of the page. Scroll through and find a bunch of different workouts. Do the workouts that say "for time" only.

After you train like that for 6 months, spend the next 2 years doing a lot of:
Bench press, overhead press, jerks, dips, barbell rows, chin-ups, cleans, snatches, squats, front squats, overhead squats, deadlifts and ab work.

Then go back to crossfit.com and do the workout of the day as prescribed each day.

Also, everything I said is very good advice. You're 16 and seem to have your mind made up because someone that you probably look up to tells you something and you think they're always right. That might prevent you from following my advice. That's stupid.

ZenMonkey
02-19-2009, 08:14 PM
^^The best advice youll get.

Hazerboy
02-19-2009, 08:28 PM
I've found that guys with muscle usually gassed faster... BJJ isn't as much about strength as wrestling is.

You've got to be kidding me. People with muscle gas faster? Maybe, MAYBE in comparison to guys in lower weight classes, but if you're trying to tell me that of two people in the same weight class, the one with more muscle is going to gas faster, your off your rocker. That doesn't make any sense man. Essentially, grappling is a series of explosive moves mixed in with periods of technical battling. To generalize things heavily, more muscle = more explosiveness.


As for your second sentence, I'm sure there are all sorts of great technical fighters who could whoop the pants off stronger guys, but of two guys of equal technical skill and whatever other variables you wanna look at, the stronger one wins. period. Strength may or may not be as much of an advantage as in wrestling(don't know, have only briefly trained in BJJ), but its still an advantage.

CrazyK
02-19-2009, 08:47 PM
You've got to be kidding me. People with muscle gas faster? Maybe, MAYBE in comparison to guys in lower weight classes, but if you're trying to tell me that of two people in the same weight class, the one with more muscle is going to gas faster, your off your rocker. That doesn't make any sense man. Essentially, grappling is a series of explosive moves mixed in with periods of technical battling. To generalize things heavily, more muscle = more explosiveness.


As for your second sentence, I'm sure there are all sorts of great technical fighters who could whoop the pants off stronger guys, but of two guys of equal technical skill and whatever other variables you wanna look at, the stronger one wins. period. Strength may or may not be as much of an advantage as in wrestling(don't know, have only briefly trained in BJJ), but its still an advantage.Strength is a massive advantage. I've gotten tapped by white/blue belts that are similar to my size and strength. I've also gotten in to complete stalemates with purple and brown belts that are signifigantly smaller and weaker then I. Any offense they try to mount is thwarted because I can simply resist/explode out of most of what they try. Not to mention that if it was a real fight I could pick them up and slam them.

J.C.
02-20-2009, 07:40 AM
I would just get crazy penetration then exhaust myself trying to finish.

Huh, Lol. That's what she said. :hump:

KingJustin
02-20-2009, 09:16 AM
I think lots of muscle sort of does have some aspects that make you gas faster. Like, I know that a 200lbs/5% guy burns more calories than a 200lbs/20% guy. Muscle burns more calories than fat. I'm assuming this means your heart has to work harder.

But, that's countered by the fact that everything you do is easier when you're really strong. When everything is easier, it requires less physical exertion and you don't end up tiring so easily. (This more than counter-balances things). I see this a lot in the CrossFit stuff. Some of the weaker guys with good conditioning can put up good times with stuff with really light weights, but if they have to use medium or heavy weights, they do relatively much worse.

(And yeah, more muscle is not = more strength exactly, but for the purposes of simplicity in these situations, it is)

Y2A
02-20-2009, 10:37 AM
I could be wrong here, but at 16 years old I would try to gain muscle and grow as much as possible. You'll have to go against bigger guys, sure, but you don't want to hinder your development by trying to stay in a really low weight class. What if you have the potential to be a powerhouse fighter at 185 or 205?

ZenMonkey
02-20-2009, 01:54 PM
I do not think there is a REAL, VERIFIABLE correlation between LBM and lack of cardio ability. It is all anecdotal.

LoneJeeper
02-20-2009, 06:37 PM
You've got to be kidding me. People with muscle gas faster? Maybe, MAYBE in comparison to guys in lower weight classes, but if you're trying to tell me that of two people in the same weight class, the one with more muscle is going to gas faster, your off your rocker. That doesn't make any sense man. Essentially, grappling is a series of explosive moves mixed in with periods of technical battling. To generalize things heavily, more muscle = more explosiveness.


As for your second sentence, I'm sure there are all sorts of great technical fighters who could whoop the pants off stronger guys, but of two guys of equal technical skill and whatever other variables you wanna look at, the stronger one wins. period. Strength may or may not be as much of an advantage as in wrestling(don't know, have only briefly trained in BJJ), but its still an advantage.

perhaps i should have been clearer. I didn't expect someone with brief experience to jump down my throat for a few generalizations. guys who train for big muscles and for powerlifting have more muscle which uses more oxygen, and they try to muscle you around, and they gas faster... they also train to go all out for the length of a set, instead of the length of a match. I don't train for medals or anything, I don't have much experience with comparing those in weight classes. I've grappled those much smaller and much larger (though not much) it's a bit anecdotal, but i've seen it with every bodybuilder type that i've rolled with. they've got the muscle, and by god they'll use it. they're also the most inflexible. Ronnie Coleman is not exactly the typical weightlifter. you see a lot of splits between squat sets in your gym? I also figured that with him at his weight/age, flexibility will probably come easier and is worth more than muscle in bjj.

for my second sentence... bjj was designed to be utilized by a weaker opponent. newbies try to force it. If you ever get to roll with an experienced grappler, you won't even notice you're being led into a trap. They'll resist you while they set you up and pull you into it while you're still trying to force them. all things completely equal, which never happens, the stronger one will probably win, but there's way way way to many variables to say for sure.

LoneJeeper
02-20-2009, 06:42 PM
My second suggestion is an actual answer to your question.
The most optimal thing you can do is probably just go through a bunch of crossfit metcons and don't do anything else for about 6 months.
Go to http://www.crossfit.com and look at the thing in the middle of the page. Scroll through and find a bunch of different workouts. Do the workouts that say "for time" only.

After you train like that for 6 months, spend the next 2 years doing a lot of:
Bench press, overhead press, jerks, dips, barbell rows, chin-ups, cleans, snatches, squats, front squats, overhead squats, deadlifts and ab work.

Then go back to crossfit.com and do the workout of the day as prescribed each day.

Also, everything I said is very good advice. You're 16 and seem to have your mind made up because someone that you probably look up to tells you something and you think they're always right. That might prevent you from following my advice. That's stupid.

whatever else disagreements there are in this thread. I agree that crossfit is a good call.

Notorious
02-20-2009, 07:33 PM
perhaps i should have been clearer. I didn't expect someone with brief experience to jump down my throat for a few generalizations. guys who train for big muscles and for powerlifting have more muscle which uses more oxygen, and they try to muscle you around, and they gas faster... they also train to go all out for the length of a set, instead of the length of a match. I don't train for medals or anything, I don't have much experience with comparing those in weight classes. I've grappled those much smaller and much larger (though not much) it's a bit anecdotal, but i've seen it with every bodybuilder type that i've rolled with. they've got the muscle, and by god they'll use it. they're also the most inflexible. Ronnie Coleman is not exactly the typical weightlifter. you see a lot of splits between squat sets in your gym? I also figured that with him at his weight/age, flexibility will probably come easier and is worth more than muscle in bjj.

This is assuming that guys with a lot of muscle a) don't do conditioning and b) don't stretch. In general, this may be true. But obviously if you were to do a martial art you would have to do both.

KingJustin
02-20-2009, 07:38 PM
perhaps i should have been clearer. I didn't expect someone with brief experience to jump down my throat for a few generalizations. guys who train for big muscles and for powerlifting have more muscle which uses more oxygen, and they try to muscle you around, and they gas faster... they also train to go all out for the length of a set, instead of the length of a match. I don't train for medals or anything, I don't have much experience with comparing those in weight classes. I've grappled those much smaller and much larger (though not much) it's a bit anecdotal, but i've seen it with every bodybuilder type that i've rolled with. they've got the muscle, and by god they'll use it. they're also the most inflexible. Ronnie Coleman is not exactly the typical weightlifter. you see a lot of splits between squat sets in your gym? I also figured that with him at his weight/age, flexibility will probably come easier and is worth more than muscle in bjj.

for my second sentence... bjj was designed to be utilized by a weaker opponent. newbies try to force it. If you ever get to roll with an experienced grappler, you won't even notice you're being led into a trap. They'll resist you while they set you up and pull you into it while you're still trying to force them. all things completely equal, which never happens, the stronger one will probably win, but there's way way way to many variables to say for sure.

If a newbie that has a powerlifting background competes in BJJ with someone trained at BJJ, yes, they will probably try to out-muscle the other dude. They'll gas faster. And they'll probably lose. Yes, that is all true. But when that powerlifter gets good at BJJ and to the same skill level, his strength is going to be a big advantage. I don't know what point you are trying to make unless you are trying to point out something we all agree with -- if you don't know how to control your body and you're a newbie to BJJ, you'll probably suck. And suck air.

As far as "most weightlifters are inflexible because they don't work on flexibility enough" ... yeah. That doesn't mean anything. The point is that you CAN get strong & muscular without losing flexibility (that said, there's a point where if you're like 260 that you lose some upper body stuff, but that's not an issue here), you just have to take the time to stretch. The same can be said about the skinny-fat dude.

Chubrock
02-20-2009, 09:13 PM
In BJJ, where submissions can be thrown from any angle, strength isn't nearly as important as overall coordination, body control and flexibility. Grappling with wiry guys is the absolute worst. I'd much rather go a few rounds with bigger guys as they're typically not nearly as well rounded as smaller BJJ players. Regardless of how hard one focuses, a strong grappler will rely more on his strength than a smaller fighter. Because of this, they often miss some of the finer points that help certain submission/escapes "click".

KingJustin
02-20-2009, 09:29 PM
In BJJ, where submissions can be thrown from any angle, strength isn't nearly as important as overall coordination, body control and flexibility. Grappling with wiry guys is the absolute worst. I'd much rather go a few rounds with bigger guys as they're typically not nearly as well rounded as smaller BJJ players. Regardless of how hard one focuses, a strong grappler will rely more on his strength than a smaller fighter. Because of this, they often miss some of the finer points that help certain submission/escapes "click".

Go watch Lamane from Champion in a BJJ match against someone his size that is not as strong (by nature of the fact that nobody his size is nearly as strong) and come back and say that strength is not very useful in BJJ.

My response was honesty a little more geared to MMA than BJJ, but in any sport, being stronger is always an advantage so long as you use your strength correctly.

Chubrock
02-20-2009, 09:50 PM
Go watch Lamane from Champion in a BJJ match against someone his size that is not as strong (by nature of the fact that nobody his size is nearly as strong) and come back and say that strength is not very useful in BJJ.

My response was honesty a little more geared to MMA than BJJ, but in any sport, being stronger is always an advantage so long as you use your strength correctly.



Come on lawyer, I never said it wasn't important. However, I did say that it wasn't nearly as important as coordination, body control and flexibility.

If you want to use individuals for comparison, take a look at the Abu Dhabi Combat Club Championships. Typically the medal winners aren't overly large guys. For example, Marcelo Garcia is <77 kilos and has both a silver and bronze medal in the absolute division.

Don't get me wrong, strength is important. With that said, something typically has to be sacrificed in order to continue to make strides in the strength arena. This sacrifice typically doesn't do very much for one's BJJ game.

squat huge
02-20-2009, 11:43 PM
I do not think there is a REAL, VERIFIABLE correlation between LBM and lack of cardio ability. It is all anecdotal.

Cardio ability or cardio results? It is not anecdotal. It is actually simple physics.
work=force x distance
In case you're not familliar work is equal to the amount of energy expended.
If you have a greater LBM than your oponent than you require a greater force to move the same distance in the same amount of time, F=ma.
Imagine Ronnie Coleman running a marathon (a demonstration of cardio ability), against a skinny Kenyan.

squat huge
02-20-2009, 11:55 PM
King Justin,
You're right muscle does burn more calories than fat. This is because fat does not burn any calories.
I think you may be missinterperating this concept. If you have two individuals with the same weight and one has double the body fat, the one with less body fat or more muscle will burn more calories at rest. But if they run a 10K the guy with more muscle will burn less calories. The fat guy has less force output, and has more non-functional weight to move. Its like putting a back pack on. The fat does not mechanically contribute to movement.

squat huge
02-21-2009, 12:13 AM
I do not think there is a REAL, VERIFIABLE correlation between LBM and lack of cardio ability. It is all anecdotal.

Physics aside, there are other factors that relate LBM and cardio ability. LBM is determined by the number of muscle fibers and the cross sectional area of those fibers. With greater cross sectional area the cell volume to surface area ratio is also greater. When this ratio is increased there are greater energy requirements within the cell without an equally greater amount of surface area where water, nutrients and oxygen can pass through the cell membrane and where waste can be transferd out of the cell. This decrease in efficiency has an affect on "cardio ability". This concept of volume to surface area is also why large organisms are made up of millions of small cells rather than one large cell, it is an attempt to increase surface area while maintaining volume. Heavy people are more susceptable to overheating for this very reason as well.
Strength and power on the other hand increase cardio ability, but that is an entirely different story.

Hazerboy
02-21-2009, 03:55 AM
If you want to use individuals for comparison, take a look at the Abu Dhabi Combat Club Championships. Typically the medal winners aren't overly large guys. For example, Marcelo Garcia is <77 kilos and has both a silver and bronze medal in the absolute division.

That doesn't mean a damn thing. Your thought experiment suffers from participant biase - whose to say 77 kilo guys aren't the average competitor, and thus more likely to win?

If you wanna talk physics, I can spin Langrangian mechanics, multi dimension dimensional solutions to schroedingers equation and differential equations all night long. Your missing the point. This kid is 5'9, 125 lbs, and could greatly benefit from gaining 20-50 lbs. No one who is awesome at any combat sport is 5'9 and competes at 125 lbs. End of discussion.

I could go on, pointing out other crappy arguments from a few of you, but in the end I figure XKCD says it best:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

Chubrock
02-21-2009, 07:11 AM
A bunch of dumbass rambling.




Your reading comprehension = none.

LoneJeeper
02-21-2009, 08:57 AM
Are we comparing a newbie 16 year old to olympic and professional grapplers? you gotta stick with average dudes. by the time he gets to where the big guys are conditioned, he'll have the 20 pounds just by doing the work to get there.

Chubrock
02-21-2009, 09:20 AM
Are we comparing a newbie 16 year old to olympic and professional grapplers? you gotta stick with average dudes. by the time he gets to where the big guys are conditioned, he'll have the 20 pounds just by doing the work to get there.

Exactly. I'd even go so far as to say that a new BJJ player's time would be much better spent grappling 4-5 days a week and staying out of the gym all together. Spend a year eating right and learning to actually pull off submissions and escapes in a fluid manner and then start incorporating heavy weight work and conditioning. I've grappled with many guys that were much larger than myself, and I've typically come out on top simply because I can move my hips and have a better awareness of my limbs and body positioning.

Edit: I should also add that this all depends on what the OP is looking to get out of BJJ. If he wants to eventually compete, I stand by my advice. If he wants to just get out there and have some fun, get your ass in the gym and throw in some BJJ when ya can.

KingJustin
02-21-2009, 09:31 AM
Squat_Huge, that's been something I've been wrong about for awhile then. Haha. Thanks

And dude, Hazerboy, bringing up equations of cat lovers (fags) is kind of pointless in this thread. Chubrock did make a legit point to what I was saying. He didn't say the 5'9/125lb dude couldn't get substantially bigger.

squat huge
02-21-2009, 10:36 AM
That doesn't mean a damn thing. Your thought experiment suffers from participant biase - whose to say 77 kilo guys aren't the average competitor, and thus more likely to win?

If you wanna talk physics, I can spin Langrangian mechanics, multi dimension dimensional solutions to schroedingers equation and differential equations all night long. Your missing the point. This kid is 5'9, 125 lbs, and could greatly benefit from gaining 20-50 lbs. No one who is awesome at any combat sport is 5'9 and competes at 125 lbs. End of discussion.

I could go on, pointing out other crappy arguments from a few of you, but in the end I figure XKCD says it best:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

Who cares if you can spin equations all night long, that does not mean that you understand the equations. I have a degree in physics and spinning equations simply means you can regurgitate what was in your text book in order to pass an exam, if you have truely done intense studies of physics than you know this is true. Majority of my classmates could never transfer what they learned to anything outside of the selected subject matter.
With that said you are absolutely correct I was missing the point, and I agree gaining weight would definitely benefit this kid, I never said it wouldn't, notice I mentioned that Fedor never gets gassed, I simply wanted to discuss Zen Monkey's comment about LBM and cardio as I felt he was off the mark. I did mention that strength and power will benefit cardio ability. I am a competitive judo and bjj athlete and I weigh 265 and I never get gassed. So while I was speaking off the subject, I do not think that what I said was false or without merrit. And why would you ever diss concepts of physics when analyzing movement, biological or not?

squat huge
02-21-2009, 10:54 AM
That doesn't mean a damn thing. Your thought experiment suffers from participant biase - whose to say 77 kilo guys aren't the average competitor, and thus more likely to win?

If you wanna talk physics, I can spin Langrangian mechanics, multi dimension dimensional solutions to schroedingers equation and differential equations all night long. Your missing the point. This kid is 5'9, 125 lbs, and could greatly benefit from gaining 20-50 lbs. No one who is awesome at any combat sport is 5'9 and competes at 125 lbs. End of discussion.

I could go on, pointing out other crappy arguments from a few of you, but in the end I figure XKCD says it best:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png


It isn't the end of the discussion. Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki is 5'9"-5'10" and weighs less than 145 Lbs. He is known as the Newaza god in Japan. Newaza is grappling. The Gracie family was taught judo by Maieda who was a judo master from Japan. The Gracie family called it Jiujitsu, which is a generic martial arts term from the Japanese language. At 60 kilos Kashiwazaki was the points winnner for theTokai university judo team. That means they would put him against the rival team's best who usually outweighed him by a lot. I have never lost a competition in the U.S., and got my a** handed to me in Japan by guys literally half my size. Kashiwazaki was the judo world champion, as well as the Sambo world champion. Would he have done better if he had put on some weight? Possibly, but he did just fine without it.

squat huge
02-21-2009, 10:59 AM
Sorry for ranting like this everyone, I will shut up now.

CrazyK
02-21-2009, 08:12 PM
It isn't the end of the discussion. Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki is 5'9"-5'10" and weighs less than 145 Lbs. He is known as the Newaza god in Japan. Newaza is grappling. The Gracie family was taught judo by Maieda who was a judo master from Japan. The Gracie family called it Jiujitsu, which is a generic martial arts term from the Japanese language. At 60 kilos Kashiwazaki was the points winnner for theTokai university judo team. That means they would put him against the rival team's best who usually outweighed him by a lot. I have never lost a competition in the U.S., and got my a** handed to me in Japan by guys literally half my size. Kashiwazaki was the judo world champion, as well as the Sambo world champion. Would he have done better if he had put on some weight? Possibly, but he did just fine without it.And does the OP have even 1/100th of the skill and talent as the people you mentioned? I'm going to guess not and even if he does, he'd be better if he filled out his frame quite a bit more.

squat huge
02-23-2009, 01:18 AM
And does the OP have even 1/100th of the skill and talent as the people you mentioned? I'm going to guess not and even if he does, he'd be better if he filled out his frame quite a bit more.

You realize you are agreeing with me?
Secondly, how do you know? Do you have any bjj experience?

Hazerboy
02-24-2009, 02:45 AM
A few things...

In all of my statements, I was trying my best to help the OP, not to reach some "fundamental truth" about size, grappling, and strength training. Citing extremes instead of the status quo does nothing to help this kid. I'm sure there are some amazing BJJs who are small, but that doesn't mean I'm going to tell a 135 lb kid to stay skinny and just hope that he can ride solely on his grappling talent alone. an athlete should take advantage of everything at his disposal.

Second, Read my post again, and this time read the words instead of getting angry when someone disagrees with you. See how I purposefully term drop a bunch of physics crap? And right afterwards I say "your missing the point?" Your missing the point here for two reasons: 1) Its difficult to apply newton's laws to a complex system like a BJJ match. You looked into this yourself, from a biological perspective--there are hidden variables associated that F=ma doesn't account for. Hell, I'm a second year in one of the best physics programs in the country and nearly everything i've learned is an approximation in some way. Intermediate mechanics was turned out to be "Everything is a simple harmonic oscillator if you squint at it long enough 101." Often the math involved for modeling even the simplist of systems is nearly impossible if you don't make the problem an approximation. My point? Your not going to derive some fundamental truth about grappling or strength training by quoting formulas and (even to an extent) biology, and you sure as hell aren't going to help this 135 lb kid become a better wrestler. If really wanna find out some truth about sports, get a 100 guys and perform a double blind study. This will lead you much farther then any equation.

2) Your missing the point here because this kid is 135 lbs. He's not ronnie coleman and his opponents won't be kenyans, as in most likely he's not going to notice much of a "gassing" effect if he puts on some muscle. He probably won't be able to run >5 miles as efficiently but most likely he'll see more success on the mat.



From what it looks like to me Squat_Huge, your posts have amounted to nothing more than nit picking our language and disproving our arguments with the extreme. Sure, you might be right, but I never knew I was arguing the fundemental truths of strength training and BJJ to begin with, I thought I was trying to help a kid with a question. I don't care about BJJ masters or awesome guys who've had success even though they were weak. I care about a kid whose 135 lbs and not a BJJ master, so this is who I'm giving advice to.

Which reminds me, at what point did you offer a strength training regimen for this kid, or ask him what his best lifts for or even attempt to address his problem? You didn't. All you did was delicately prove how all of us our wrong when it comes to Ronnie coleman, heavyweight powerlifters, kenyans, Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki, and other world class BJJ athletes in japan (now do you see why my XKCD graphic applies here?) Last time I checked this kid wasn't 300 lbs of hulking muscle or a BJJ master who doesn't need to put on some weight. How are any of your posts going to help this kid? You said it yourself - alot of the greats would have probably been greater if they were stronger. Can you honestly say that putting on 20 lbs is going to hinder this guys development, assuming he doesn't neglect his specific BJJ training?

So now I'm going to do what I should have done awhile back, then find something better to procrastinate with:

Waterhouse: You've obviously seen the arguments for and against putting on weight. Do whatever you want, you can probably be good at BJJ without putting on 20 lbs, though with my experience of 4 years in wrestling and getting my ass handed to me at 125, it helps to be stronger than your opponent. Maybe strength training isn't as important in BJJ, but if thats true why strength train to begin with? Just go work on your technique.

Anyways, if you do want to get stronger, its probably worth it to put on 20 lbs, for what I said in my first post. If you still don't wanna gain weight, then thats fine. Do what KingJustin suggested, or check out the book Starting Strength. If you've lifted weights before, and have some experience under your belt, check out any of the routines on Joe Defranco's website. Westside for skinny bastards 1 is probably a good start, and can get you very strong without much weight gain.


At this point I'm going to find something better to argue about. If you wanna discuss the intricate nuances in strength training and grappling that apply to elite masters, or how small guy still win matches, start your own thread. Don't hijack this one, where the result might be hindering some poor guys progress whose not an elite athlete.

CrazyK
02-24-2009, 09:56 AM
You realize you are agreeing with me?
Secondly, how do you know? Do you have any bjj experience?Yes I do. I pointed that out earlier in the thread. In middle/high school I wrestled, then moved on to bjj as a hobby in my undergrad (playing college fball, so gave up wrestling). It's been an enormous advantage to be bigger and stronger then my opponents. Even on black belts I always maintain dominant positions and they really just can't do anything. It turns in to a stalemate, and if it were a real fight they'd get their ass kicked lol.

They consistently remind me that bjj for them against a much larger and stronger opponent enables them to defend themselves, not nessacarily "win" fights or achieve submissions.

Hazerboy has the same point as I however, the OP is 135 lbs. at a height we believe he could fill out more. He's not a 300 lbs. powerlifter or bodybuilder, and he's not Royce Gracie. He'll better be a better overall grappler if he was bigger/stronger.

squat huge
02-24-2009, 11:13 AM
Crazy K and Hazer Boy,
I respectfully dissagree with both of you. Of course I would want to understand fundamental truths of physics and biological systems, who wouldn't. That is the whole point of science. LOL. I would think a physics student would appreciate that. If physics is crap why are you studying it.

The equation F=ma is not intended to account for hidden variables. It describes the relationship between a force exerted on a body and the resulting acceleration of that body. It is very simple to apply to a bjj match, squating or any athletic event. If you increase the force you are able to apply to your opponent you are the increasing the rate at wich you can change their momentum. If you increase your force production by the same magnitude that you increase your mass the rate at which you can accelerate your own body remains constant. These concepts have a plethora of implications, and add a wealth of understanding when annalyzing a double blind study. Having a good understanding of the concept of power, enables you to draw up different graphs relating Force vs Time. Integrating the area under the curves reveals that greater power uses less energy for two systems that are moving at the same speed and have the same mass. Exercise scientists have confirmed this with athletes, although they did not understand why training for power improved endurance dramatically, they had to consult a physicist. You can find the result without ever doing the double blind experiment.
As for approximations, I will take an approximation over a guess any day. Saying that "any relationship between LBM and cardio performance is anectdotal" is a guess, and an uneducated one at that. By the way that is the post that I was originally responding to, not the OP. Why are you so afraid of letting a thread discuss different topics, its just taking its natural course, and its all about learning not being right. All of my posts were in response to subjects that other people introduced.
As for making comparisons to elite bjj athletes, you are the one who made the first comparison, not I. You said,
"No one who is awesome at any combat sport is 5'9 and competes at 125 lbs. End of discussion."
Awsome implies elite, and your statement is false. Haven't you ever corrected someone on this forum when you knew they were wrong.

Krazy K, would you rather go to a clinic put on by Olin Kreutz or some guy who played at the Juco level?
How about a weight lifting seminar, Joe DeFranco or someone who passed a PT exam?
There is nothing wrong with making reference to those people who are the best at what they do. Modeling the experts can be extremely beneficial. And pointing out extremes gives very clear illustrations, it takes out any uncertainty. And please stop telling me that this kid is not an expert and he is not Royce Gracie, I never said or in any way implied that he was. But honestly, if Royce Gracie jumped on this thread I am sure that the OP would disreguard everything we have said and follow his advice.
Krazy K,
again you are just agreeing with me.

LoneJeeper
02-24-2009, 12:19 PM
I think we may have scared the OP away, but just in case.... i benefited from grip work alot, too.

zbollman
02-25-2009, 08:05 PM
KrazyK, how big are you? You say that you can control blackbelts and stalemate them, I find this very hard to believe. I'm curious as to your size and what belt you are in BJJ.

Zach

Itsnotaboutme
03-17-2009, 04:44 PM
Huh, Lol. That's what she said. :hump:

Girls getting penetration? Damn I don't know what kind of girls your around...

GTA
03-24-2009, 05:36 PM
Im gonna have to call shenanigans KrazyK! I highly doubt that you were able to stalemate with blackbelts unless your a competition level purple/brown belt.You may have done this 1 or twice but it hasnt happened often and if you were in a real fight it would have been ugly.....for you. I know this because i am a 5'9 190-195lb blue belt under Relson gracie/Phil migliarese.I compete also.Now maybe you train with one of these guys that bought their black belt,then i could see it happening.But not with a legit BJJ black belt.No way. Ive trained with everyone from Relson,Renzo,Ricardo Almedia to american Black belts like Phil,Rick Migliarese, Rick Macauley,and Bill Scott.I know what im talking about. For the guy looking to gain strength for BJJ,do a Kettlebell workout 2-3 times a week and work on flexability,conditioning and not so much strength.Remember BJJ isnt about strength,read anything from helio Gracie and you'll see this.Work on the basics and condition yourself.Check out the Spartan 300 kettlebell workout and Spartan 300 body weight workout,by Steve Maxwell.Steve is a BJJ Black belt and S/C coach for the Arizona Cardinals.These dvds are great for BJJ.Good luck and stick with it