PDA

View Full Version : Cutting in a Nutshell



aormz
02-24-2009, 10:56 PM
Here is the story, I am 6'3" 235lbs. I would like to be 195 by summer time, or as close to that as possible. I work out frequently 3-5x a week. But I am about to go super strict and start doing 5 days a week. 3 of those days will be double workout days. If that makes sense (Monday/Wednesday/Friday will be dual session days).

My plans are to be doing Sprints in the mournings on M / W / F and than my traditional lifts throughout the week. A Push / Pull / Legs / ABs type routine.

My questions to you masters are, What should be my macronutrients and calorie counts @ the end of the day? I would like to lose a total of 40lbs w/in 4-5 months. Should I go to 2000 cals a day? Should my Macros be 40%40%20% ? HELP PLEASE! How many meals a day?

tom183
02-25-2009, 03:56 AM
Should I go to 2000 cals a day?

What is currently your maintenance calories?

VikingWarlord
02-25-2009, 05:13 AM
Figure maintenance. Subtract 20%. There's your target calorie level.

Aim for 1.25g or protein per lb LBM. Aim for about .5g of fat per lb LBM. Have protein and carb meals in the peri-workout window.

Meal frequency is something you decide on. It doesn't make a difference and it's about your comfort. It's much more about what you eat than when.

Don't do a training split like that. It's inefficient and you'd be better served to do BGB or WBB 1.1 instead which hits every muscle group twice weekly in 4 days per week. Training 5 days a week while in caloric deficit is hell on your body and more training != more fat loss.

Before I go any farther, is there a reason you're splitting up sprints and lifting?

Pimpstick
02-25-2009, 07:09 AM
At your size, you will catabolize a lot of your muscle if you workout 8 times a week on 2000 calories a day. If this is what you want, go for it.

40 pounds in 4 months is very rapid weight loss, and you WILL lose muscle along the way. It is a doable goal, but you will need to run a deficit of roughly 8500 calories per week to achieve this. So, if you currently eat 4000 calories a day, you will need to eat 4000 - (8500/7) = 2785 cals per day.

aormz
02-25-2009, 01:26 PM
I would say that normally I was taking in about 3200 calories a day maybe even more. I was drinking a lot of pop.

I understand I'm gonna be losing some muscle mass, and I am prepared for that. But I need to lose a bulk of these pounds. And if that's the way it's gonna happen, so be it. I can always add more later ;)

I split sprints up from my workout b/c after sprints I am dead tired, and my lungs are burning. Which hence would take away from the power of my lifts. Also I read that HGH is promoted, if you split your training sessions up to more than once per day.

On the WBB1.1 workout. I'll take a look at it, how many sets or reps do you do per body part?

Pimpstick
02-25-2009, 01:38 PM
An 8 year member and you think hgh is promoted by 2 a days.....

The workout plan you choose really isnt going to determine much of anything during a cut. Workouts should be short and intense.

Your diet is going to be paramount. I'd stop drinking soda (pop LOL my whole family is from ohio) if you're going to be eating next to nothing to leave room for more quality calories. If you don't mind losing a lot of muscle, have a blast eating 2000 cals a day for the next four months!

VikingWarlord
02-25-2009, 01:41 PM
Oh god, here we go. I'm tired and cranky because my buzz has worn off before the end of the work day. Strap in.


I would say that normally I was taking in about 3200 calories a day maybe even more. I was drinking a lot of pop.

I understand I'm gonna be losing some muscle mass, and I am prepared for that. But I need to lose a bulk of these pounds. And if that's the way it's gonna happen, so be it. I can always add more later ;)

This is ****ing stupid. Muscle mass helps keep your metabolism up. The more muscle you have, the higher your BMR. Being willing to lose muscle on a cut is like saying that you'd rather use a rusty handsaw instead of a chainsaw to clear a forest. It'll probably happen but you're far better served by trying to preserve LBM.

Unless you're trying to make weight for a competition of some sort, dropping scale weight just for the sake of seeing a low number risks a lot of damage for no real reason.


I split sprints up from my workout b/c after sprints I am dead tired, and my lungs are burning. Which hence would take away from the power of my lifts. Also I read that HGH is promoted, if you split your training sessions up to more than once per day.

Sprints right after lifting is better for lipolysis promotion. Any HGH promotion that might possibly result would be unlikely and pointless in a caloric deficit.


IOn the WBB1.1 workout. I'll take a look at it, how many sets or reps do you do per body part?

You do what the program tells you to do.

aormz
02-25-2009, 04:24 PM
Wow, most people when they cut, lose muscle mass. It's almost inevitable, unless you are very good at what you do and are perfect with your diet. I understand that you want to lose as little muscle mass as possible but wtf man, did your crack run out? Most of the people on this board are pretty cool and will help you out when you have questions. But instead Marlyn Manson comes out of the vampire world and roid rages on me.

Considering that Sprints are anaerobic and not aerobic, I feel you get alot better results when your body actually has glycogen in the muscles especially for anaerobic exercises.

The reason I asked these questions is to have a valuable opinion answer them. Isnt that the reason this forum is here?

@ 235lbs 6'3" EST: 24% BF How many Cals should I be eating per day if I would like to get down? I actually worked out a lot cleaner diet that is consisting about 240g protein 185g carbs and 80g fat which is about 2600 calories. What would you say to that?

ChunkyThunder
02-25-2009, 10:44 PM
It is true that most people lose muscle mass when they cut, but why cut without regard for the muscle mass you already have?

It seems like you are ok with losing the muscle in order to reach a pointless number. Weight is really a pointless number unless you have a weight class you need to be under for a competition or sport of some kind. You should be worried more about body fat% than numbers on a scale. Why would you want to haphazardly undo everything you have done when you could systematically lose the fat and reap the rewards of your hard work?

aormz
02-25-2009, 11:35 PM
It's not that I am disregarding my muscle mass. I just dont want to be as thick, you got a point about weight has no diction it's just a number. But I feel like I'm too heavy bro. I Would ideally love to be 215 @ 8% but ultimately I would like to be as explosive and balanced as I can be. Right now I know that is @ a lighter weight.

ChunkyThunder
02-26-2009, 12:18 AM
So why don't you cut your body fat, get to 8%, see how you look and feel. Work on Olympic and compound movements for explosiveness.

6'3 215lbs isn't even close to musclebound to a point where you would restrict movement.

At my best I was 5'11 265. I could still do a split, and scratch my own back. I was doing MMA and never felt impeded by my muscle mass.

heathj
02-26-2009, 01:26 AM
Oh god, here we go. I'm tired and cranky because my buzz has worn off before the end of the work day. Strap in.



This is ****ing stupid. Muscle mass helps keep your metabolism up. The more muscle you have, the higher your BMR. Being willing to lose muscle on a cut is like saying that you'd rather use a rusty handsaw instead of a chainsaw to clear a forest. It'll probably happen but you're far better served by trying to preserve LBM.



You are misinformed. Skeletal muscle does not equate for as much of the bmr as you think. Fat is not far behind...vital organs make up most of the bmr. Organs are about 24-25 cals/lb, muscle 6cals/lb, fat 4cals/lb, and bone 1 cal/lb. Don't worry so much about losing muscle during a cut. The more muscle the better you look, but this has LITTLE effect on bmr.

VikingWarlord
02-26-2009, 05:32 AM
Considering that Sprints are anaerobic and not aerobic, I feel you get alot better results when your body actually has glycogen in the muscles especially for anaerobic exercises.

Depends what you mean by "results".

Once your glycogen is depleted (say, after lifting weights), the sprints or any other intense short burst training like HIIT, BB complexes, etc will promote lipolysis (breakdown of fat stored in fat cells). once those FFAs are released, you take a walk/jog/bike ride for a few minutes to burn them off so they don't re-esterize.

Seriously though, if you think you're going to get in 8 productive workouts a week while in a caloric deficit, you're in for some serious Hell.


@ 235lbs 6'3" EST: 24% BF How many Cals should I be eating per day if I would like to get down? I actually worked out a lot cleaner diet that is consisting about 240g protein 185g carbs and 80g fat which is about 2600 calories. What would you say to that?

How far below maintenance is 2600?

4g64fiero
02-26-2009, 05:43 AM
Seriously though, if you think you're going to get in 8 productive workouts a week while in a caloric deficit, you're in for some serious Hell.


[/thread]....

BrainDed
02-26-2009, 10:10 AM
Figure maintenance. Subtract 20%. There's your target calorie level.

Aim for 1.25g or protein per lb LBM. Aim for about .5g of fat per lb LBM. Have protein and carb meals in the peri-workout window.



Wow, that seems like a lot of fat. I'm not questioning you, just saying I'm surprised by that number.

I have been using fitday to track my intacke while cutting and it looks like I need to make some adjustments.

Here are my numbers.

LBM = 133
BF% = 20.5
BMR = 2400 (dont know if i belive that.. seems high)
Calorie Intake = 1400 or so
Macros have been around = 60p/30c/10f (so hard to keep carbs down)
Grams = 140p / 70c / 25f

According to your post I need to exchange those carbs (mostly from veggies) for some more fatty protien? (Beef) I already feel like I am on the Atkins diet.. lol

Edit: Was just looking into fish oil,, appears I should add that anyway for heart health, but thats only 3 grams of fat a day. (atlarge fish oil 3 capsules a day)

VikingWarlord
02-26-2009, 05:08 PM
Wow, that seems like a lot of fat. I'm not questioning you, just saying I'm surprised by that number.

I have been using fitday to track my intacke while cutting and it looks like I need to make some adjustments.

Here are my numbers.

LBM = 133
BF% = 20.5
BMR = 2400 (dont know if i belive that.. seems high)
Calorie Intake = 1400 or so
Macros have been around = 60p/30c/10f (so hard to keep carbs down)
Grams = 140p / 70c / 25f

According to your post I need to exchange those carbs (mostly from veggies) for some more fatty protien? (Beef) I already feel like I am on the Atkins diet.. lol

Edit: Was just looking into fish oil,, appears I should add that anyway for heart health, but thats only 3 grams of fat a day. (atlarge fish oil 3 capsules a day)

First question, where did you get your BMR? You know that BMR and maintenance calories aren't necessarily the same thing?

1400 is VERY low and, unless you're trying to PSMF, you should probably pick that up.

You don't need to have fatty protein, but you should have more fat AND protein. The majority of your intake should be from unsaturated fats, but you do need some saturated fats to assist with androgenic hormone production.

Assuming your maintenance is 2400 and you have 133lb LBM, this is how I'd set it up:

1900-1950kCal per day
165-170gP per day = 660-680kCal
65-70gF (about 25g saturated) = 585-630

That takes you to about 1245-1310kCal and you can pretty much fill in the rest with what you want. If you're going to aim for more fats, aim for mostly monounsaturated. More protein is always acceptable too.

BrainDed
02-26-2009, 05:26 PM
Viking -

First, thanks for the detailed response, I appreciate it. I got my BMR from a calculator off a google search. Did age -31, sex -M, wieght 168 and average motion a day. (seated at work and so on)

No, I'm not concrete on my maintenance because I have been only logging on fitday for a week. I am pretty sure the LBM is near accurate as I used a caliper that i recently purchased to get my bf% (20.5). Plus, I was always rail thin in High school weighing about 145 with 9% BF or so. (Guesstimating)

wieght 168 bf%20.5 LBM 133

What are some suggestions as far as particular food items to up the fat types you suggested? I'm really new to paying attention to nutrients so I dont have a clue except egg whites and chicken breast for protein. I will measure again sunday and then try to incorporate these changes for the following week to track the differences. Got to to tell ya though, I'm a little nervous about upping the calories that high. Maybe I will compromise and go 1700.

Thanks!

VikingWarlord
02-26-2009, 05:37 PM
Calculators are worse than useless. I say that because people actually trust them and so are basing their decisions on wildly inaccurate information. I really can't recommend you drop your calories that low. Too low and you not only won't have enough energy to be able to train well but you'll also risk catabolizing more muscle. I calculated that deficit as 20% below the 2400 estimate. If your maintenance turns out to be different, recalculate it. Pretty simple.

A tip that I got from several people is that, if you don't know what your LBM is, you should take 85-87% of your ideal weight and that's good enough for a start.

As for foods, just check the What A Bodybuilder Eats thread.

BrainDed
03-01-2009, 10:54 PM
As for foods, just check the What A Bodybuilder Eats thread.

Well after a week of 1400 cals, 1 cheat day with plenty of beer, 4 weight training sessions and everyday life cardio (softball, golf, walking dog) my measurements have not moved.

So I'm gonna try to drop the carbs even lower and add some fat like you suggested. Switched to 1% milk, from skim, for my shakes and gonna add P-Butter to them. Also, Gonna ditch the slim fast for breakfast & healthy choice meal for lunch, lots of carbs in those. Gonna go with egg whites for bfast and grilled chicken w/ steamed veggies for lunch that i prepared the weekend before.

Try to portion everything out to be around 1700 cals, up from 1400. It's crazy to my untrained mind to raise the cals. We shall see.

brihead301
03-02-2009, 10:56 AM
Eat healthy, eat frequently, Lift heavy often and consistently, finish every workout with a short and intense cardio session. You should lose weight and maintain muscle that way. If you don't lose weight by doing the above, eat slightly less. The scale and the mirror will be your judge on whether or not you are eating the correct amount of food to lose weight.

VikingWarlord
03-02-2009, 11:09 AM
You can't expect to see major results after a week. Put that **** out of your head immediately. If you're going to do it right, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Beer...no. If you're going to cut and mean it, the beer needs to get put away.

BrainDed
03-09-2009, 03:12 PM
You can't expect to see major results after a week. Put that **** out of your head immediately. If you're going to do it right, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Beer...no. If you're going to cut and mean it, the beer needs to get put away.

Not expecting to turn into the Hulk over night brother. Lol. But I am expecting to periodically see results when measuring on a weekly basis.

MGD 64 = 64 cals 1.2 G's of Carbs - Water that tastes sorta like beer.

But, Thank you for the tips again. Either I got lucky or your tips helped contribute to dropping 1% BF, 2 pounds and 1/2 inch in gut. I dont expect that every week but love it when it happens. Thanks again Viking!

Major change was dropping carbs and adding fat from PB.