PDA

View Full Version : few random questions



slashkills
03-24-2009, 06:10 PM
#1Im going to be playing football again next year and im currently following westside.Im just looking for some things to add for explosiveness.I know louie says that box squats should replace powercleans but ive seen alot of people saying that they shouldnt. What do you think about this? Is there any way i could incorporate these into my routine? Maybe less weight and higher reps during an extra workout?

#2About how many lbs do you expect to add to your big three in a year?

#3About how many powerlifters experience long lasting pain or side effects from powerlifting? are injuries really that common?

Travis Bell
03-24-2009, 07:08 PM
Time and time again we've had top notch D1 football athletes come into Westside and the first thing we do is throw out the Oly lifts. You need to get stronger. You get stronger by squatting, benching and deadlifting. We do spend some time working on speed, this new dealie called dynamic method LOL.

Each time, their 40 times go down, vertical jumps go up, strength goes up (added squat bench and dead numbers and added reps on their 225 max) Westside works extremely well. This is one of the applications that Paul Childress will be talking about during the seminar as will Lou.

As for how many LBS people add to their total in a year, it's such a huge variable that you really can't answer that. Diet, training consistency, training intensity etc, all come into play.

And for no.3, that's also a really huge variable. Major injuries aren't as common as your internet certified highschool gym teacher would like you to believe. I've been lifting since I was 14, powerlifting since I was 19 (I'm 24) and I have never had a major injury. I take care of my body, know when to dial it back and know when to push hard.

As a matter of fact, the only time I've had a major muscle injury was my senior season of soccer. I had a stress fracture in my leg so my coach made me do pushups instead of sprints (what the rest of the team was doing) it was about 20 degrees out and when I hit number 90, I felt a slight pull in my left pec up by the shoulder. next day I felt like someone had hit me hard and I had massive bruising all down my chest and arm.

I'm still here though :evillaugh:

Lou has torn both patellar tendons, broken his back more times than anyone I've ever heard of, torn his quads, hammies, has no right bicep at all (literally) and his collar bone pops out each and every time he squats with a straight bar.

He's still here though. Squatting, benching and deadlifting every freaking week.

You decide what injuries are lasting and which ones aren't.

Reko
03-24-2009, 07:13 PM
Lou has torn both patellar tendons, broken his back more times than anyone I've ever heard of, torn his quads, hammies, has no right bicep at all (literally) and his collar bone pops out each and every time he squats with a straight bar.

He's still here though. Squatting, benching and deadlifting every freaking week.



ummmmmmm.... WHAT?:omg:

slashkills
03-24-2009, 07:15 PM
So by removing the oly lifts and having them follow the dynamic method their 40 times went down?! is there any way around this? Could you do sprint and plyo training on off days or on bench days to counter this? Becuase thats what i was planning on starting soon now that weather is getting nicer and summer football camps are starting in a couple months.

Lones Green
03-24-2009, 07:16 PM
Brent's told me some awesome stories about Lou and is injuries. The man is a freak.

10.5 Dave
03-24-2009, 07:17 PM
Travis covered it all.For future reference have faith in what Louie says,the man has trained more top shelf lifters then anyone and it wasn't by accident.

Travis Bell
03-24-2009, 07:35 PM
So by removing the oly lifts and having them follow the dynamic method their 40 times went down?! is there any way around this? Could you do sprint and plyo training on off days or on bench days to counter this? Becuase thats what i was planning on starting soon now that weather is getting nicer and summer football camps are starting in a couple months.

And how are you planning on adding to your pushing power? 225 max?

Just a thought

Travis Bell
03-24-2009, 07:36 PM
ummmmmmm.... WHAT?:omg:

yeah it's really bad. Sometimes I can hear it pop. That's why he usually uses the buffalo bar or the SSB

The bicep just isn't there. Torn right off

He's a powerlifting machine. You can't stop him

WillNoble
03-24-2009, 09:15 PM
IMHO, true westside is a poor choice for football... great for PL, poor for football...

Travis Bell
03-24-2009, 09:17 PM
how can you argue with the results though?

tomv
03-24-2009, 09:20 PM
IMHO, true westside is a poor choice for football... great for PL, poor for football...


Uh... Why?

WillNoble
03-24-2009, 09:22 PM
how can you argue with the results though?

again, wont argue with westisde for pure strength (i am a true westside disciple), but if football is your game, a modified westside approach is more appropriate.

WillNoble
03-24-2009, 09:24 PM
Uh... Why?

because the basic form of a westside template is based around a PL'ers goals... The split ME/DE upper and lower make perfect sense, but the accessory work need so to be more specific to football...it is in this that Defranco has gotten it right...

Travis Bell
03-24-2009, 09:42 PM
again, wont argue with westisde for pure strength (i am a true westside disciple), but if football is your game, a modified westside approach is more appropriate.

I was more referring to the performance results with the athletes that we have at Westside.

I really should write all their PRs down and compile them.

I'm not exaggerating these results. Honestly I had to sit down with Lou and make sure I understood him correctly. But yes, we have them go through ME and DE squat and bench workouts just like the rest of us do. Their ascessory work is similar, but their GPP work is a little different

Why would you not want to get stronger for football?

Travis Bell
03-24-2009, 09:43 PM
Also, just for everyone else reading this thread, Will is plenty knowledgeable on football, he played college ball under Jim Wendler who was his strength coach. Just FYI

WillNoble
03-24-2009, 10:01 PM
I was more referring to the performance results with the athletes that we have at Westside.

I really should write all their PRs down and compile them.

I'm not exaggerating these results. Honestly I had to sit down with Lou and make sure I understood him correctly. But yes, we have them go through ME and DE squat and bench workouts just like the rest of us do. Their ascessory work is similar, but their GPP work is a little different

Why would you not want to get stronger for football?

again Im not disputing the point travis, but heres the logic of it...you are training guys to be football players... not PL'ers

Yes it is very important to be strong in the game of football, but there are other equally important things, namely high levels of GPP and skill at SPP, coupled with explosion (read: DE work) and speed (read: technique).

I truly think that the Westside split is very appropriate, I am only arguing that you need to treat all the additional work/workouts differently in terms of the content of those workouts compared to those lets say, you or Greg, or Phil, or Tony etc. etc.

Travis Bell
03-24-2009, 10:17 PM
again Im not disputing the point travis, but heres the logic of it...you are training guys to be football players... not PL'ers

Yes it is very important to be strong in the game of football, but there are other equally important things, namely high levels of GPP and skill at SPP, coupled with explosion (read: DE work) and speed (read: technique).

I truly think that the Westside split is very appropriate, I am only arguing that you need to treat all the additional work/workouts differently in terms of the content of those workouts compared to those lets say, you or Greg, or Phil, or Tony etc. etc.

Well said! And I would agree. I guess you and I are saying the same thing, I think we are just holding different opinions on what the definition of the Westside template is which isn't really a big deal at all LOL

So long as the application is the same, that's what the main goal is.

To me, that's the definition of Westside itself. Going through DE and ME workouts and then tailoring your ascessory work to your given needs, be that a given range of motion on the bench, or upper back and shoulder strength.

One of the biggest problems we have that is almost universally true with our football players is they have almost no hip strength at all. Now, Greg and Luke have pretty strong hips already so they don't do the ultra wide stiff legged deadlifts that we have the football players do (just for an example) but that's still Westside template. Just a different ascessory exercise.

Good discussion though Will. I appreciate your input.

WillNoble
03-24-2009, 10:31 PM
So long as the application is the same, that's what the main goal is.

To me, that's the definition of Westside itself. Going through DE and ME workouts and then tailoring your ascessory work to your given needs, be that a given range of motion on the bench, or upper back and shoulder strength.


again, its a perception at this point... If you refer to westside as merely conjugate periodization, then I am incorrect... The point I initially made and will still stand by is that all special exercises, SPP, GPP, and accessory work will be different within a Westside split, when comparing a collegiate or NFL football player and a pro powerlifter...




One of the biggest problems we have that is almost universally true with our football players is they have almost no hip strength at all. Now, Greg and Luke have pretty strong hips already so they don't do the ultra wide stiff legged deadlifts that we have the football players do (just for an example) but that's still Westside template. Just a different ascessory exercise.

Good discussion though Will. I appreciate your input.


I will certainly agree with that last point, hip strength is a severe lack with 99% of all football players...and again I do enjoy the educated discussion

tomv
03-25-2009, 04:03 AM
Also, just for everyone else reading this thread, Will is plenty knowledgeable on football, he played college ball under Jim Wendler who was his strength coach. Just FYI

Wasn't so much doubting him as curious for an explanation of his stance. :angel:

slashkills
03-25-2009, 06:24 AM
Thanks for all the replies guys. That was very informative. So if i stick with westside could i do plyometrics or sprint training to as spp or gpp to help counter a reduced 40 time?

WillNoble
03-25-2009, 06:41 AM
the increased plyo's are a must, from vids and articles Ive seen from Lou, he is doing this with all his athletes and most lighter weight lifters in the form of various types of jumps to a box, of a box, hassock, etc...

That being said, Football is all about balance... I would take the basic idea of the 4 day westside split (or well the old westside split) and tailor to fit your needs for foobtball.


Defranco did an excellent job of this (in my opinion) in WSFSBIII (http://www.elitefts.com/ws4sb/WS4SB.pdf) which is the best free material written to date on building up young football athletes (again, this is most certainly my opinion)






As for the above discussion between travis and I, I think it is just boiling down to semantics more than anything. Lou is a genius and if he were to devote his time merely to football (or any one sport for that matter) he would have the change and impact that he has already had on the PL game...

Travis Bell
03-25-2009, 09:42 AM
Thanks for all the replies guys. That was very informative. So if i stick with westside could i do plyometrics or sprint training to as spp or gpp to help counter a reduced 40 time?

Help counter a reduced 40 time?

You want your 40 time to go down bud. That means you're getting faster

But to answer your question, yes that would be a good idea IMO

WILD BILL
03-25-2009, 10:14 AM
[QUOTE=

Lou has torn both patellar tendons, broken his back more times than anyone I've ever heard of, torn his quads, hammies, has no right bicep at all (literally) and his collar bone pops out each and every time he squats with a straight bar.
[/QUOTE]

LMAO he talked about his broken back like 200 times at our seminar lol

Pete22
03-25-2009, 11:06 AM
LMAO he talked about his broken back like 200 times at our seminar lol

Mark's Lou impression is hilarious btw, I always crack up when I hear it on some of your guys' videos.

slashkills
03-25-2009, 03:11 PM
Help counter a reduced 40 time?

You want your 40 time to go down bud. That means you're getting faster

But to answer your question, yes that would be a good idea IMO

Sorry thats just me being an idiot again. Thats what i meant.:redface:

slashkills
04-03-2009, 03:32 PM
Also,is it ok if i wear a belt every ME squat/deadlift? Ive heard somewhere that belts actually can cause lower back problems from focusing all the weight in spot or something like that. It was a while ago, ill try and find the article.

slashkills
04-07-2009, 07:58 PM
For DE squat with bands, you use 50% bar weight plus 25% band tension of that weight correct? If im not training for a meet is it necassary to wave the weights and percentages? Last question, what is the easiest way to figure out band resistance percents? I seen Dave tates article about adding weight to one side of the bar and just a band to the other. That may be difficult for me as i dont have a reliable spotter most of the time.

Hazerboy
04-08-2009, 09:27 PM
From 5 years of wrestling I got a concussion, a broken wrist, and a dislocated knee. 6 years of weight training has brought me some pulled muscles in my back that healed in less than a week.



Each time, their 40 times go down ...


I think there was a misunderstanding here: did their forty times go down, as in got they crappier, or go down, as in their time decreased once the football players came to westside?

If its the former, I'd bet that was because they weren't running nearly as much, or they put on a lot of muscle so their running mechanics changed.

Anyways, I'd have to agree with will here in that Defranco has done the best as far as adapting the ME, DE excercises, accessories, and GPP of westside to be more sports specific. If you're really interested in football, I would read everything you can on that guy's site, and if possible buy his DVD's on "beating" the combine (think of it as an ACT prep book, only for football XD ). I don't have nearly the experience of will or travis, but I have read nearly everything on his site, and I must say he has knows his ****, not to mention he's produced RESULTS. He currently has a former or current trainee on every team in the NFL.

And as for the band/weight percentages, as far as my understanding goes they're just a guide. whats important is moving the weight FAST. And if you're a raw lifter you won't use nearly as much band tension to begin with as someone geared.
As far as waves go, I think the idea is just to change it up a bit every two or three weeks. More experienced guys will be way more precise about this, but as far as us newbies are concerned I think the idea is just to keep things changing. Do three weeks with bands, three without, some weeks do more band tension, fewer sets, others the reverse, etc.

And no, there's nothing wrong with a belt on heavy sets. Unless you can find me some peer reviewed science to show otherwise, year's of anecdotal experience has convinced me that belts are fine.

Beefcaker
04-08-2009, 11:28 PM
I'm pro belt.

Travis Bell
04-09-2009, 08:19 AM
Help counter a reduced 40 time?

You want your 40 time to go down bud. That means you're getting faster

But to answer your question, yes that would be a good idea IMO



I think there was a misunderstanding here: did their forty times go down, as in got they crappier, or go down, as in their time decreased once the football players came to westside?


LOL yes their 40 times got faster

slashkills
04-09-2009, 08:48 AM
Thanks guys! Hazerboy ill try and find that article i read.

Sensei
04-09-2009, 08:59 AM
Slash,
You are waaay overcomplicating things. At your levels of strength, you don't need complication... Band tension, special exercises, plyos, parachutes, etc. is not the key. Dave Tate did an article called "Bustin' Ass 101" a while back and it is one of his very best. It's on T-Mag I think. Search for it. Read it. Do it.

Sensei
04-13-2009, 09:35 PM
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/bustin_ass_101