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CaptainMorgan
03-26-2009, 10:38 AM
Is it possible to put on solid muscle as a fat person with minimal to zero added body fat while bulking if you bulked completely clean?

Pimpstick
03-26-2009, 10:48 AM
first, you need to define "fat". and you need to define your goals.

It's probably smarter for someone who is "fat" to go on a slow cut or a recomp. If you're a newb and fat, you can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.

If your more advanced, check out mike wolfe's training log. He lost over 100 pounds and added a bunch to his already huge bench press in the process.

Unreal
03-26-2009, 10:55 AM
If training and diet were spot on then yes you could add weight with minimal fat gain.

CaptainMorgan
03-26-2009, 11:19 AM
Fat as in 27%-30% body fat at damn near 200lbs. I've been on a modified version of Protein Spared Modified fasting, using Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss diet. I've lost about 25lbs so far, with hardly any noticeable fat loss results. Basically, I've become a skinny fat person.

So, I'm thinking either my estimated LBM has been way lower than I originally thought, or I've been doing it wrong and most of that weight loss on the scale WAS actually muscle/lean body mass. I'm just deciding on what I should do from here. I'm getting my actual body fat percentage checked out soon. I've been waiting for my calipers to be shipped to me, then I might get it professionally checked out, through a personal trainer or doctor/nutritionist or whatever.

I'm not sure if I should continue the diet or start bulking clean while lifting 4-5days a week (and doing moderate cardio) again on a more healthy and moderate diet. Something like 250 grams of protein, under 100 grams of carbs and fat, and calories at slightly below maintenance a day.

Pimpstick
03-26-2009, 11:31 AM
How long have you been on psmf? How tall are you?

I'd drop the psmf, eat at maintenance, and lift heavy for 6 months. You'll be surprised at the transformation if you're consistent. I would not bulk.

CaptainMorgan
03-26-2009, 11:34 AM
I'm about 6 feet tall. Would you recommend any particular lifting diets for me that go into the raw details, like how many grams of protein, carbs, fat, etc and what my calories should be at?

Been on PSMF for about a month and a half.

Pimpstick
03-26-2009, 11:43 AM
200 grams protein, 100 grams fat at minimum. That totals 1700 calories. At your weight and height your maintenance is probably somewhere are 2500 cals a day, or at least that's what I'd shoot for.

So get 1700 cals from fats / protein minimum and 800 more from whatever. Easy peasy.

Brian C
03-26-2009, 07:50 PM
6 ft 200 lbs and your way to fat??

BULK_BOY
03-26-2009, 08:27 PM
6 ft 200 lbs and your way to fat??

That's just what I said.....

WTF MATE?

Mercuryblade
03-26-2009, 11:57 PM
That's just what I said.....

WTF MATE?

He said he's skinny fat. As a man who's body's natural tendencies lean him in that direction it's a body type I'm all too familiar with.

VikingWarlord
03-27-2009, 06:43 AM
I've been on a modified version of Protein Spared Modified fasting, using Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss diet. I've lost about 25lbs so far, with hardly any noticeable fat loss results. Basically, I've become a skinny fat person.

My bet is that you've been doing it way wrong. WAY wrong.

The first one almost always sucks for most people. Take time off to maintain, read the book again two or three times, and try another run.

Holto
03-27-2009, 09:55 AM
Very difficult diet to pull off for someone who isn't advanced at manipulating their diet. If you haven't run a more conventional cut successfuly, I would recommend you do that first.

MadScientist
03-27-2009, 12:44 PM
Eat at maintenance and lift weights 2 days on 1 day off.

Do 20-30 sets at 8-10 reps/to failure. 200 g protein, 80-100 g fat, 200-250g carbs

It always takes time, it should take years.

VikingWarlord
03-27-2009, 01:05 PM
Eat at maintenance and lift weights 2 days on 1 day off.

Do 20-30 sets at 8-10 reps/to failure. 200 g protein, 80-100 g fat, 200-250g carbs

It always takes time, it should take years.

Is that your advice for a cut or a bulk? That's way too much volume for any kind of serious cut. Where did you get those macros?

MadScientist
03-27-2009, 02:19 PM
From what I read he doesnt have enough muscle to cut, and too much fat to seriously bulk.

So he should grind it for 6mo-1yr.

Eat at maintenance and lift 8-10 for mass - Recomp

20-30 sets per workout is not too much. It may be if you were doing 3-5 rep sets. Superset a few sets and finish in under 75 mins.

Brad08
03-27-2009, 02:45 PM
Would you recommend any particular lifting diets for me that go into the raw details, like how many grams of protein, carbs, fat, etc and what my calories should be at?

Been on PSMF for about a month and a half.


Wait. You've been ON the diet for a month and a half but don't have the "raw details" worked out?? YOu should know BEFOREHAND after reading the damn book how many calories you need and how much protein you should be eating. A 'rapid fat loss' diet is no joke and NOT for someone who just kinda casually decides to "stop eating" for 45 days, which is what it sounds like you did.

CaptainMorgan
03-27-2009, 03:13 PM
Wait. You've been ON the diet for a month and a half but don't have the "raw details" worked out?? YOu should know BEFOREHAND after reading the damn book how many calories you need and how much protein you should be eating. A 'rapid fat loss' diet is no joke and NOT for someone who just kinda casually decides to "stop eating" for 45 days, which is what it sounds like you did.

I was talking about switching to a more normal and healthy diet for maintenance or cutting that would be geared towards lifting 4-5 days a week that would support my body and keep me energized, hence the word "lifting," NOT Rapid Fat Loss.

CaptainMorgan
03-27-2009, 03:21 PM
My bet is that you've been doing it way wrong. WAY wrong.

The first one almost always sucks for most people. Take time off to maintain, read the book again two or three times, and try another run.

The only thing that I think I could be doing wrong is not getting enough protein, and weighing my food wrong. I know I need to buy a digital scale. Other than that, it's pretty much getting your grams of protein per pound of lean body mass, and creating the biggest calorie deficit. Also, depending on what category you're in, you need more protein if you're 1-2, and you need to do refeeds. Since I'm category 3, that doesn't apply to me. I'm getting all my vitamins, minerals, fish oil. Do two full body workouts twice a week, try to limit my cardio as much as possible.

I don't know what I could be doing wrong. I stopped taking the E/C stack because that **** doesn't agree with me.

motor head
03-27-2009, 07:28 PM
How do you recomp? I get what it means but how does one pull that off? Load cals after lifting and cut otherwise?

VikingWarlord
03-27-2009, 08:30 PM
How do you recomp? I get what it means but how does one pull that off? Load cals after lifting and cut otherwise?

There are a few ways to do it. You can eat at around maintenance, keeping an extremely high level of protein and train like a madman. This process is designed to be really slow.

If I remember correctly, something like UD2.0 can be used for recomp purposes but is way more effective the leaner you are to start. It's been a while since I read it but I think there's a maintenance option that is there for just that purpose.

teeroy
03-27-2009, 09:56 PM
There are a few ways to do it. You can eat at around maintenance, keeping an extremely high level of protein and train like a madman. This process is designed to be really slow.

This is what I'm working on. I've had pretty good results so far eating at maintenance yet losing inches off my waist while maintaining the same weight. I let myself get pretty big (fat big not muscle big), though, so I'm sure at sometime I will reach a point where I will need to go into a caloric deficit in order to continue to lose fat. But I'm going to ride this wave as long as I can so I can put on as much muscle as possible before going into that calorie deficit.

I've been dialing this in and I think have a pretty good system now. I haven't been tracking actual grams of macros or caloric intake as I've got my sytem down to where I just know what I need to eat. But it basically breaks down like this:

Very high protein
Moderate fat
Low carbs, only eat carbs in the morning or immediately after a workout
I eat most of my calories before 2PM. After that is is high density protein food and/or shakes in small amounts every couple of hours
Lift heavy (relative so your strength level)
High intensity cardio 2x a week

I've lost 4" off my waist and 18lbs since November. In the last 4 weeks I've lost 1" off my waist but haven't lost any weight.

I really don't know if this would work for anyone else and am not suggesting it would. I'm sure it depends a lot on the starting point of the individual. For me, I f'd up and did a low calorie diet with lots of cardio to totally atrophied my muscles. Becuase of this I think I have a lot of capacity to increase my muscle mass while decreasing my fat percentage.

MadScientist
03-29-2009, 07:48 AM
Bulking means adding as much lean mass as possible, and usually some, or moderate amount of fat.

Cutting means dropping as much fat as possible. It is inevitable to lose SOME muscle when cutting.

Both of these methods have goals that are aggressively pursued and usually only stay in either phase for a month or two.

Where is recomposition cycles can last years, as the person slowly replaces fat with muscle. Usually the person eats at, or slowly above, maintenance calories. Great results are achieved through a steady workout routine, eating clean, and lifting heavy.

CaptainMorgan
04-11-2009, 05:13 AM
An update:

So, the other day I finally got my hydrostatic weighing/body fat test done. They said my bf is 27.7%. Little lower than I had originally thought, but I'm glad it's not 30+. LBM is 157.6lbs. So, I've got about 60 pounds of fat to lose.

I also weigh about 213 now. I'm sure most of it is water and such. But I'm planning on going back on the RFL diet again, maybe cut down to 190-185, then switch to a more "normal" diet for the last 28 pounds. After I reach that goal, I plan to bulk up and add solid muscle, then cut again. I reckon all this **** will take me at least 2 years, so it's work in progress. I've got a hell of a journey ahead of me. Like others have said before me: never, ever get fat.

MadScientist
04-11-2009, 07:25 AM
An update:

So, the other day I finally got my hydrostatic weighing/body fat test done. They said my bf is 27.7%. Little lower than I had originally thought, but I'm glad it's not 30+. LBM is 157.6lbs. So, I've got about 60 pounds of fat to lose.

I also weigh about 213 now. I'm sure most of it is water and such. But I'm planning on going back on the RFL diet again, maybe cut down to 190-185, then switch to a more "normal" diet for the last 28 pounds. After I reach that goal, I plan to bulk up and add solid muscle, then cut again. I reckon all this **** will take me at least 2 years, so it's work in progress. I've got a hell of a journey ahead of me. Like others have said before me: never, ever get fat.


You only have 36-37 lbs to lose
Unless you plan on cutting to 0% BF and dying on us.

17% of 213 is 36 lbs. Lose 36 lbs of fat and you will have abs at 10% bodyfat. Go much lower and you will lose some strength.

This should take you 4-6 months tops.

I kind of find this funny as I sometimes bulk to over 30% bodyfat. Then cut to 10%. So I have several experiences with this same scenario.

VikingWarlord
04-11-2009, 08:17 AM
Like others have said before me: never, ever get fat.

I don't really agree with your chosen method, but as long as it gets you what you want, rock on.

I do agree with this statement though. Because of injuries, stress, and medications for problems I never told anyone about, I blimped back up and undid a lot of progress so it's been a rough start getting back on it.

Your pain is felt.

Pimpstick
04-11-2009, 08:22 AM
I don't really agree with your chosen method, but as long as it gets you what you want, rock on.

I do agree with this statement though. Because of injuries, stress, and medications for problems I never told anyone about, I blimped back up and undid a lot of progress so it's been a rough start getting back on it.

Your pain is felt.

Didn't know Viagra made you fat? O SNAP! I went there.

*Awaiting 5x worse comeback

CaptainMorgan
04-11-2009, 05:14 PM
You only have 36-37 lbs to lose
Unless you plan on cutting to 0% BF and dying on us.



Oh, yeah. I forgot that super low body fat would mean death. Ha.



17% of 213 is 36 lbs. Lose 36 lbs of fat and you will have abs at 10% bodyfat. Go much lower and you will lose some strength.

This should take you 4-6 months tops.

I kind of find this funny as I sometimes bulk to over 30% bodyfat. Then cut to 10%. So I have several experiences with this same scenario.

Jesus. I don't know how you do it. That seems damn near impossible to me. It's such a ****ing pain in the ass, such a struggle to diet down and cut, to workout and jog, just to see that you've only lost a pound in one week after all that hard work, that I would never, ever want to go back to that percentage. But you must carry it well at 6' 7".

CaptainMorgan
04-11-2009, 05:28 PM
I don't really agree with your chosen method, but as long as it gets you what you want, rock on.

I do agree with this statement though. Because of injuries, stress, and medications for problems I never told anyone about, I blimped back up and undid a lot of progress so it's been a rough start getting back on it.

Your pain is felt.

What specifically don't you agree with? The RFL diet again? I know it's not the best of choices, but the only reason I'm going that route is because I'm going down to Cancun at the beginning of June, and I wanted to lose as much fat as I possibly can by then, for obvious reasons. Ha.

I was thinking about dieting normally on 2400 calories a day while working out 4x a week again. My maintenance is 2900 according to the hydrostatic test. But I'm not sure if I would reach my fat loss goal in that amount of time.

VikingWarlord
04-11-2009, 06:18 PM
I think it's a mistake to cut right now since your LBM is pretty low...you basically have nothing to cut down to. It's fine to get rid of a little of the fluff but it seems like it's a waste of effort to undergo a massive cut right now and you really wouldn't be happy with the result.

CaptainMorgan
04-11-2009, 07:55 PM
What would you recommend I do then?

VikingWarlord
04-11-2009, 08:13 PM
Well, there are three options. The first two are cut, bulk, cut again or a slow bulk with one longer cut. If you did PSMF and other things, chances are your metabolism might be in the crapper right now, especially given the results you said you got before.

The third option, and my honest and completely frank suggestion, is that you use a 4 day split like WBB1.1 or BGB and lift your ass off. Eat at maintanence on off days and slightly above maintenance on training days...think +10% or so. Supplement that with some metabolic cardio work to improve your stamina so that when you're ready to go for real, it's a little easier to push harder. Hill repeats always did more for my CV stamina than anything else I ever did and recommend them to pretty much anyone that's physically able. Include some HIIT in there too.

You're not looking to recomp so much as you are trying to un-**** your metabolism. You should feel different after doing that for a month or so, then make a decision. Basically, don't make any long term decisions at this point. Get yourself back together and see what your body tells you to do.

I think this is the safest bet, though this is based entirely on ONLY the information in this thread.

CaptainMorgan
04-11-2009, 08:50 PM
My only problem with the third suggestion is eating above maintenance on training days. I'd like to stay at the weight I'm at now, and not gain much weight/fat back. But I'm assuming it's mostly for recovery and muscle repair? Otherwise, it does sound like a plan.

I don't exactly think my metabolism is ****ed, as I can still lose weight on the scale if I eat below maintenance. I'm definitely not stuck at this weight or anything.

Also, keeping in mind, I don't really want to cut on RFL thinking I'll see 6 pack abs or whatever. I just want to reduce the size of my gut and lovehandles, then bulk, then re-cut normally on a normal diet and workout routine. I believe the problem I had with the RFL diet is that I was doing it wrong, so I didn't get the results I wanted, and the fat loss went slower than it should have.

I guess I'll try it your way for 3 weeks until early May, then see if I can start RFL again. I've already been on a break since late March anyway, so that'll be about a month or so to get back to normal.

VikingWarlord
04-11-2009, 08:59 PM
You won't gain if you're slightly above maintenance on training days. It's just for some extra energy and, yes, to aid recovery. Just keep it clean.

The only reason I said anything about the metabolism is the post you made about the results you said you saw on PSMF and the followup information we talked about in PMs. It might not be the case, but I think it's probably best to play it safe because it's easy to do some damage. At least you have one under you and can adjust as needed. You've got more specific numbers to work with through the hydrostatic test, so that's a plus.

Now other people may disagree but my bet is that you'll be happier in the long run if you make sure you're in the best possible place before you start.

dlew
04-12-2009, 12:52 AM
I started lifting because I saw marshmellow man when I looked at myself in the mirror. I began Starting Strength around November, have been eating much more cleanly, and I've lost a lot of fat. It's weird though, the more fat I lose, the more I see that I have to lose. I'm nowhere near where I want to be but lifting heavy using compound lifts 3 times a week, and watching my diet more closely, is paying off huge dividends. Keep in mind that I'm a dad and a husband so I can't realistically be as strict with my diet as I'd like, but I've come to accept moderation. I've also learned that it's all about making a lifestyle change that's sustainable. Focus on being eating a diet that's healthy and sustainable and lift -- it doesn't happen as quickly as you'd like it to but it does eventually happen.

MadScientist
04-12-2009, 08:49 AM
Oh, yeah. I forgot that super low body fat would mean death. Ha.




Jesus. I don't know how you do it. That seems damn near impossible to me. It's such a ****ing pain in the ass, such a struggle to diet down and cut, to workout and jog, just to see that you've only lost a pound in one week after all that hard work, that I would never, ever want to go back to that percentage. But you must carry it well at 6' 7".

The more muscle you have, the easier it is to burn fat. \
Just lower cals by 200 or 300, do 40 mins of light cardio at 55-65% MHR 3 days a week. Lift 4 days a week.
And clean up your diet. You will lose like 2 lbs a week.

VikingWarlord
04-12-2009, 09:05 AM
The more muscle you have, the easier it is to burn fat. \
Just lower cals by 200 or 300, do 40 mins of light cardio at 55-65% MHR 3 days a week. Lift 4 days a week.
And clean up your diet. You will lose like 2 lbs a week.

Pardon? 2lbs a week? A 7000kCal deficit in a week through light cardio, lifting, and lowering calories by 300 per day?

That isn't possible if you're a normal sized person that isn't juicing. That is, unless you're losing water, muscle, and maybe a little fat. A pound of fat contains 3500cKal but a pound of muscle only has about 600.

I'm sorry dude, but I have to call shens on this post.

MadScientist
04-12-2009, 10:54 AM
40 mins of light cardio at 55-65% MHR 3x per week = 3000+ calories alone.

Deficit 200-400 cals under maint = 1400-2800 alone.

When I cut I dont eat carbs last 3 hours before I sleep, as to utilize more fat while I sleep.

My PWO shake is also not such a beast when I cut.


My diet is a lot cleaner as well when I cut, with less carbs (mainly cutting simple carbs, I dont cut complex carbs)


This alone is over 8000 cals /wk difference.

Plus I usually take a fat burner like lipo or lean xtreme, but I dose it normal or under normal. As I dont want to rely on these so much.
That boosts my RHR and my metabolism.

I lose some muscle, but not much. Maybe lose 1 lbs of muscle for every 5-8 lbs of fat.

But thats my trade off. When I bulk I gain 1 lb of fat for every 5-8 lbs of muscle.

I keep zig zagging.

2lbs a week is perfectly legit. I could hit 3 if I wanted, and some weeks, I do. Esp in summer when I am more active/

MadScientist
04-12-2009, 11:06 AM
Also,

drink 1 liter ice water 32 degrees F

It takes 1 kCal to raise 1 liter of water 1 degree.

Therefore 1 liter of cold water requires 66 kcals JUST TO HEAT IT UP,
nevermind the metabolic cost of processing the water through your entire body.


So, add that I do drink 2-4 liters of ice cold water, and factor in an increased metabolic cost of 150-250 cals per day.

CaptainMorgan
04-16-2009, 06:39 AM
I started lifting because I saw marshmellow man when I looked at myself in the mirror. I began Starting Strength around November, have been eating much more cleanly, and I've lost a lot of fat. It's weird though, the more fat I lose, the more I see that I have to lose. I'm nowhere near where I want to be but lifting heavy using compound lifts 3 times a week, and watching my diet more closely, is paying off huge dividends. Keep in mind that I'm a dad and a husband so I can't realistically be as strict with my diet as I'd like, but I've come to accept moderation. I've also learned that it's all about making a lifestyle change that's sustainable. Focus on being eating a diet that's healthy and sustainable and lift -- it doesn't happen as quickly as you'd like it to but it does eventually happen.


Yeah, I know what it's like to feel like you look like the Michelin Man, hahaha. That's why I took desperate measures like the Rapid Fat Loss diet to drop the **** as soon as possible. Realize that most of it is in your mind, however, and you probably don't look as bad as you think you do. I did weigh over 300 pounds for a very brief period at one point, so I'm probably still holding onto that mindset of a huge lardass. But I still have a gut and lovehandles to get rid of.

CaptainMorgan
04-16-2009, 06:45 AM
What do you guys think of the ephedrine/caffeine stack as a fat burner?

VikingWarlord
04-16-2009, 09:15 AM
It's better as an appetite suppressant. "Fat burners" never did anything for me other than that (and the occasional panic attack) and EC is the cheapest possible one.

Eagleclaw026
04-16-2009, 09:56 AM
I never knew that about the Ice Water. Is that completely legit or Urban lifting legend? It makes sense.

Dude I just drink 2 cups of black Starbucks coffee in the morning, brewed at home, to give me a perk up. I do Cardio in the morning and lift in the afternoon. It works for me, my body likes it and my schedule fits it.

VikingWarlord
04-16-2009, 10:07 AM
I've heard the ice water thing before but the number of calories burned changes so I think it's like most things where there's probably some truth but no one really knows what it actually is...like maximum protein absorption.

MadScientist
04-16-2009, 01:37 PM
It takes 1 kCal to raise 1 liter of water 1 degree.

This is science.

If the water is 32o your body WILL heat it to 98.6 body temp.

Thats roughly 66 cals per liter of ice cold water.

This is science, not some legend.

It takes 1 kCal to raise 1 liter of water 1 degree.

VikingWarlord
04-16-2009, 02:02 PM
Yes. It does. However, the rate of energy transfer isn't constant within the human body because it's not a perfectly efficient system. Your body will also not necessarily raise it to 98.6 degrees before it clears your system, or even once it gets to your . In an ideal world, it would be perfectly efficient. That's just not the case.

You WILL get a benefit, that's no doubt. Measuring a specific benefit or relying on it when making your calculations for daily requirements just isn't a good idea.

CaptainMorgan
04-16-2009, 07:58 PM
It's better as an appetite suppressant. "Fat burners" never did anything for me other than that (and the occasional panic attack) and EC is the cheapest possible one.

Haha. When I was taking the full dose, (starting out low and worked my way up) I was fine the first day. Second day I started experiencing chest pains. Heart was racing. I thought I was going to have a goddamn heart attack. Haven't taken it since.

MadScientist
04-17-2009, 10:27 AM
Yes. It does. However, the rate of energy transfer isn't constant within the human body because it's not a perfectly efficient system. Your body will also not necessarily raise it to 98.6 degrees before it clears your system, or even once it gets to your . In an ideal world, it would be perfectly efficient. That's just not the case.

You WILL get a benefit, that's no doubt. Measuring a specific benefit or relying on it when making your calculations for daily requirements just isn't a good idea.

I cant believe youre gonna make me take the temp of my pee.
And since the body is not efficient, it will take more calories to heat and process the water, not less.

Holto
04-17-2009, 12:57 PM
It takes 1 kCal to raise 1 liter of water 1 degree.

This is science.

If the water is 32o your body WILL heat it to 98.6 body temp.

Thats roughly 66 cals per liter of ice cold water.

This is science, not some legend.

It takes 1 kCal to raise 1 liter of water 1 degree.

I've read this MANY times. I have also read recently that this was debunked in a clinical trial. I'll see if I can find it.

The thing that comes to mind is this challenging our ability to survive in nature.

VikingWarlord
04-17-2009, 04:13 PM
I cant believe youre gonna make me take the temp of my pee.
And since the body is not efficient, it will take more calories to heat and process the water, not less.

I know that my urine feels noticeably colder coming out after drinking a large quantity of ice water than it does when I don't.

Efficient isn't the word I wanted but it was the first one I put. Either way, it doesn't address what I said about how it shouldn't be relied upon when calculating intake. If anything, it should be a bonus and ignored.

twm
05-14-2009, 03:08 PM
40 mins of light cardio at 55-65% MHR 3x per week = 3000+ calories alone.


120m of cardio = 3000+ cals? 25 cals per minute? i dont think so

edit: sorry, old thread