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slashkills
04-04-2009, 08:06 PM
I found this on another forum. The argument was that these are the correct ways to train speed. What do you guys think?


I want to settle this once and for all.

Parachutes arent good for speed training, infact they are very bad.

Hills are great regardless of incline degree.

Sleds are good ONLY at 10% of body weight resistance, no more at all.

Weighted vests only good at 10% of body weight.

Ankle weights or wrist weights are useless and non sense, you dont pull in a sprint, you push.

Other resisted sprints vary, but heavy resistance on with belt and a band also arent necessary, all depends on ground contact time.


My choice of resistance work would be uphill sprints and sleds at 10% of body weight, so if you're 150 pounds, only pull 15 pounds max.

Anything else is either used to make money and most of the time bad for sprint biomechanics.

So next time you're doing heavy sled pulls, know what you are doing and that is good for strength, bad for speed.

I disagree with the only 10% of your body weight on the sled pulls. Although it increases your contact time with the ground(opposite of what you want) i think you can counter this by following heavy sled sprints/walks by some regular sprints to help maintain proper form

Sensei
04-04-2009, 08:30 PM
I more or less agree with those generalizations. But, part of it is a marketing problem - for example, you can't sell parachutes for anything other than "speed" unless you want to explain it to a, largely, uneducated market.

I don't think the writer necessarily meant to make speed and strength a false dichotomy, but he/she kind of did... As with just about anything, it depends - individual strengths/weaknesses matter, sequencing matters, training experience/history matters, technical proficiency matters, etc.

schmitty199
04-05-2009, 11:35 AM
I found this on another forum. The argument was that these are the correct ways to train speed. What do you guys think?



I disagree with the only 10% of your body weight on the sled pulls. Although it increases your contact time with the ground(opposite of what you want) i think you can counter this by following heavy sled sprints/walks by some regular sprints to help maintain proper form

Actually I agree with lighter sled pulls.. maybe not a max of 10 percent, but you should pull a weight you can pull with normal running form imo. And in general that's not going to be a couple hundred pounds.

KingJustin
04-05-2009, 11:38 AM
This seems to just accept the general principle that if you are training for pure speed, then for your resistance work you can use as much weight as possible until your form breaks down ...

That said, I don't see why a small parachute would be a bad idea. To me, it seems less likely to break down form than a sled.

Kenny Croxdale
04-05-2009, 11:55 AM
Actually I agree with lighter sled pulls.. maybe not a max of 10 percent, but you should pull a weight you can pull with normal running form imo. And in general that's not going to be a couple hundred pounds.

Like Schmitty states, the load changes the biomechanics of running. Therein lies the problem.

Research shows that one can maintain proper for with around 10%.

Kenny Croxdale

slashkills
04-05-2009, 12:18 PM
But even though your form breaks down you are still using the muscles involved with sprinting. If you follow heavy pulls with regular sprints i guess i just dont understand how you couldnt teach your self to adapt that strength from heavy pulls to regular sprints if you where coached on form for the regular sprints.

Sensei
04-05-2009, 01:06 PM
You have to balance the "works the same muscles" argument with muscle recruitment patterns and technique.

Not the same thing exactly, but a similar argument is dragging a bucket behind you while swimming, or throwing a heavier ball to strengthen your pitching - mechanics change dramatically with even slight loading and any possible benefits you might derive can and probably will be offset by changes in form. Doesn't mean you couldn't EVER do them, just that they aren't the best idea and most coaches and athletes, if they use them at all, will overuse them.

slashkills
04-05-2009, 03:10 PM
Alright that makes more sense to me sensei, thanks.

slashkills
04-05-2009, 04:47 PM
The only thing still confusing me is does Joe Defranco does heavy prowler stuff with his athletes and they all become faster and stronger doing it.

WillNoble
04-05-2009, 05:13 PM
The only thing still confusing me is does Joe Defranco does heavy prowler stuff with his athletes and they all become faster and stronger doing it.

the prowler is a conditioning tool, not a speed aid... It most closely resembles a blocking sled for football, it is not a speed tool

slashkills
04-05-2009, 05:25 PM
But what people seem to be saying is no fast stuff on a sled past 10% of your BW. Joe defranco does heavy sprints wether his intention is speed or conditioning he still does it. Why would it not hurt their sprint mechanics? His athletes have all gotten faster using it. Thanks for putting up with me guys, i appreciate your help.

Mike G
04-05-2009, 05:37 PM
Because they are doing so many other things. I don't completely agree with the heavy sled work being bad for sprinting, if it's part of a program. That's what DeFranco does and keep in mind, he clearly knows his stuff and knows technique and how to teach it. His guys aren't just out pulling a heavy sled and become faster. They are doing a ton of other work and learn how to incorporate that work into faster times. It goes back to Sensei's point about overdoing things.

Sensei
04-05-2009, 06:42 PM
Slash,

I don't know what all Joe DeFranco does - I read his 40 Yard Dash book years ago (probably still have it somewhere) and thought it was pretty good.

As far as the Prowler goes, that's a totally different thing than strapping a sled to your waist and having someone sprint. It's different enough (with the arms out of the equation to boot) that it's doubtful it would negatively transfer to sprinting. The purpose is most likely not to improve top speed in any case. That's JMO though.

I noticed your other thread about including plyos. IMO, plyos are in a similar category to sleds, parachutes, etc. in that, if they are included by coaches and athletes at all, they are usually way, way, waaaaaay overdone.

slashkills
04-05-2009, 07:15 PM
Ok i finally think i understand this. Off topic sort of, but how many times a week doing plyos is over doing it? right now im thinking about 1 maybe 2.

EliteAthlete34
04-07-2009, 03:21 PM
All of this is useless if your are looking at the effects of certain equipment or training techniques as it pertains to the total duration of a sprint E.g. 40 yards or 100 meters. It's also useless if you are looking at it just based upon a dead start. When you are training speed especially if you are talking about the 40. You train 10 yards at a time. Lets take Speed Chutes and hills. If you start 90 to 100% hill sprint from a dead start your form and biomechanics are going to be broken ditto for a speed-chute. But if you are doing run in's the transition is near seamless again for both. But at that point you are only training the maintenance phase of the sprint. The same holds true for overspeed downhill running. You can make the same case for moderate sled work working on the start and drive phases because your body is going to naturally lean forward to create power to drag the sled, that's exactly what we are trying to teach in that phase. If we break it down further into single component training like Knee lift; resistance band products like the Power Jumper are great tools because they force accelerated knee lift. All of these things work on single phases or components of the sprint the actual running drills tie it all together so the equipment drills should not be the meat and potatoes of a sped training program but they have their positive benefits when used correctly with a well designed program.

(deleted link)

Tom Mutaffis
04-07-2009, 03:40 PM
Interesting thread, the points that Sensei and Kenny brought up both make a lot of sense.

I was actually thinking about how this applies to strongman and it is exactly the same. If a weight is so heavy that your form breaks down - then it is not going to improve "speed". Making yourself much stronger may sometimes increase speed but the light resistance "speed" work sounds like the most effective.

That brings me to another debatable point - would building more "strength" or "speed" make you faster? Does this apply to all lifts? Would doing a bunch of light power cleans be beneficial for athletes who have a lot of power and terrible form, or do they need heavier weights to make the movement challenging enough to learn the proper technique?

Just some things to talk about... I have my ideas but am always interested to see other's.

slashkills
04-07-2009, 06:43 PM
Are you talking about what would make a lift faster or more explosive? If so,
I would say use what ever weight is needed to learn proper form and then do what ever weight you can handle fast would be most beneficial. Im thinking its sort of similiar to the DE method westside lives on.

Tom, i know you are pretty explosive and have some crazy jumps. You've said before you believe its from the strongman training. How has strongman effected your speed?

Travis Bell
04-07-2009, 06:59 PM
That brings me to another debatable point - would building more "strength" or "speed" make you faster?

You need both. That's why it's important to train both.

For instance, if I trained to throw a golf ball really fast, but I need to throw shot at a track meet, the speed I develop throwing the golf ball isn't going to transfer to the shot because I didn't develop the other end of the equation, force.



Does this apply to all lifts?

The general principle does, but the application will be different for different lifts


Would doing a bunch of light power cleans be beneficial for athletes who have a lot of power and terrible form, or do they need heavier weights to make the movement challenging enough to learn the proper technique?


No. Using heavier weights will make it impossible for them to learn proper technique when concerning Oly lifting. This is where the application difference comes into play. They can use other movements such as squats, deadlifts and OH pressing to continue to develop their power and focus on their technique when concerned with Oly lifting.

Good question though Tom!


*Edit

I thought about this more and more and in theory if one focused only on speed, using the speed to produce the maximum amount of force, in theory that would indeed work. Problem is the amount of speed you'd need would be about the speed of light (exaggeration but you get the gist of what I'm saying) We have to develop more strength so that we can build more force and train the speed, so that we can better use the strength.

Sensei
04-08-2009, 11:46 AM
I think things are getting off topic a little. Of course there's a correlation between strength and speed. Does that mean "I" or "you" need to lift more, or do more light speed work? It depends! It depends on the person and the event.
Travis is right, you need both. How much of each is a little trickier to answer.

Kenny Croxdale
04-15-2009, 08:33 AM
You need both. That's why it's important to train both.

For instance, if I trained to throw a golf ball really fast, but I need to throw shot at a track meet, the speed I develop throwing the golf ball isn't going to transfer to the shot because I didn't develop the other end of the equation, force.

The general principle does, but the application will be different for different lifts

Travis,

Great point. Certain training percentage develop certain types of strength. Speed training percentages are between 10-40% of 1RM. Power train takes place with percentages roughly between 45-62%. Strength training occurs wiht load of 85% plus.

Thus, your training to throw a golf ball or shot is somewhat different.

A great research article on this is, A Comparison of Strength and Power Characteristics Between Power Lifters, Olympic Lifters, and Sprinters.
Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research. 13(1):58-66, February 1999.
MCBRIDE, JEFFREY M.; TRIPLETT-MCBRIDE, TRAVIS; DAVIE, ALLAN; NEWTON, ROBERT U.

It examines the differences in speed, power and strength development of these athletes. In other words, what make training method make you faster, more powerful and/or stronger.




No. Using heavier weights will make it impossible for them to learn proper technique when concerning Oly lifting. This is where the application difference comes into play. They can use other movements such as squats, deadlifts and OH pressing to continue to develop their power and focus on their technique when concerned with Oly lifting.

Travis, research things to be a bit different.

The training percentages listed above for power development do NOT apply to Olympic Lifts or movements. Power development with the Olympic Lifts/movements occurs in the 70-80% 1RM, area.

Olympic Lifts/movements are ballistic. Ballistic meaning that a body or an object becomes airborne. The training percentages for ballistic movements fall into a different range.

Also, the firing sequence of muscle changes with the percentage of 1RM. Research by McLaughlin shows that technique is best developed for max lifts with singles with near maximum loads.


We have to develop more strength so that we can build more force and train the speed, so that we can better use the strength.

Well put. The foundation of speed and power is built on strength.

Initially, to increase speed and power we need to get stronger. However at some point, too much strength training dampens one's speed and power.

So, combining speed and strength into one's program is the key to continueous progress with one speed and power.

Kenny Croxdale

Sensei
04-15-2009, 11:21 AM
Travis,

Great point. Certain training percentage develop certain types of strength. Speed training percentages are between 10-40% of 1RM. Power train takes place with percentages roughly between 45-62%. Strength training occurs wiht load of 85% plus.

Thus, your training to throw a golf ball or shot is somewhat different.

A great research article on this is, A Comparison of Strength and Power Characteristics Between Power Lifters, Olympic Lifters, and Sprinters.
Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research. 13(1):58-66, February 1999.
MCBRIDE, JEFFREY M.; TRIPLETT-MCBRIDE, TRAVIS; DAVIE, ALLAN; NEWTON, ROBERT U.

It examines the differences in speed, power and strength development of these athletes. In other words, what make training method make you faster, more powerful and/or stronger.

Initially, to increase speed and power we need to get stronger. However at some point, too much strength training dampens one's speed and power.

I think Zatsiorsky talks specifically about these things... could be Siff. Javelin thrower vs. Shot-Putter - if I have time and remember, I'll post something again later.

Also, the firing sequence of muscle changes with the percentage of 1RM. Research by McLaughlin shows that technique is best developed for max lifts with singles with near maximum loads. [/COLOR]Specificity... EARTH-SHATTERING! ;)

Travis Bell
04-15-2009, 11:26 AM
The training percentages listed above for power development do NOT apply to Olympic Lifts or movements. Power development with the Olympic Lifts/movements occurs in the 70-80% 1RM, area.

Olympic Lifts/movements are ballistic. Ballistic meaning that a body or an object becomes airborne. The training percentages for ballistic movements fall into a different range.

Also, the firing sequence of muscle changes with the percentage of 1RM. Research by McLaughlin shows that technique is best developed for max lifts with singles with near maximum loads.

Sounds fine in theory doesn't it?

But in real life, if you have someone come into your gym who is super powerful (which is the question I was answereing) but has no technique developed for the Oly lifts, pushing them to 70-80% of their capability and expecting them to learn how to do this and not become horrendously injured, is ridiculous.

*edit, I'm seriously not arguing the theory. It is correct that power for an Oly lifter is developed in those ranges. But that wasn't the question.

Kenny Croxdale
04-16-2009, 08:50 AM
Sounds fine in theory doesn't it?

But in real life, if you have someone come into your gym who is super powerful (which is the question I was answereing) but has no technique developed for the Oly lifts, pushing them to 70-80% of their capability and expecting them to learn how to do this and not become horrendously injured, is ridiculous.

*edit, I'm seriously not arguing the theory. It is correct that power for an Oly lifter is developed in those ranges. But that wasn't the question.

Travis,

There is definitely a learning curve. No matter how strong or powerful an athlete is, they don't start off with loads of 70-80% of 1RM for with Olympic movements.

I posted those percentage to denoted that different training percentages are utilized dependent if the exercise certain type of exercise and if they are ballistic or not.

Thus, the training percentages use to develop power for a squat, bench press and deadlift are much different than those for Olympic movements.

Kenny Croxdale

WillNoble
04-16-2009, 05:03 PM
I think Zatsiorsky talks specifically about these things... could be Siff. Javelin thrower vs. Shot-Putter - if I have time and remember, I'll post something again later.



Its Zatsiorsky, just re-read that on saturday, if I think to later I'll post up the direct quote

Bikkstah
04-16-2009, 07:01 PM
Would really disagree with the weighted vests @ no more than 10% of body weight. Wearing a 100lb vest all day (50% of body weight) and then taking it off; running, sprinting, even moving like normal feels like being on the moon. Just walking the beat with my body armor on improved my running and sprinting.

slashkills
04-16-2009, 07:41 PM
The weighted vest is rough on the joints from what ive heard. But i have used pretty heavy weighted vests for box jumps and then taken it off and just exploded up. But the effect wears off and the long term effects are much smaller than that. I dont think it would be worth it to put that pressure on the joints and wear one all day.

Butcher
04-16-2009, 10:21 PM
The 10% of body weight for sled dragging sounds rediculous to me. Differences in sled construction and dragging surfaces could account for varying degrees of resistance with the same amount of weight.

Bikkstah
04-17-2009, 06:25 AM
The weighted vest is rough on the joints from what ive heard. But i have used pretty heavy weighted vests for box jumps and then taken it off and just exploded up. But the effect wears off and the long term effects are much smaller than that. I dont think it would be worth it to put that pressure on the joints and wear one all day.

Yeah, that is the downside. I probably need knee replacement surgery for both knees.

Kenny Croxdale
04-17-2009, 07:04 PM
i have used pretty heavy weighted vests for box jumps and then taken it off and just exploded up. But the effect wears off and the long term effects are much smaller than that.

Slask,

Performing jumps with a weight vest and then without one is an effective method of increasing power, "Complex Training".

I found "Complex Training" to be a very effective method of increasing strength and power. "Buliding Strength and Power With Complex Training" goes into the principle.
http://www.liftinglarge.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=19

The program works long term and it is very effective at developing power.

Kenny Croxdale

shawno
04-17-2009, 07:52 PM
There's been a lot of good discussion on this topic.
EliteAthlete34 starts to really break it down. True speed training, meaning sprinting as fast as you can for short distances; I have never seen resistance use for that purpose. From my experience, sleds, hills, parachutes are NOT, I repeat NOT used directly for speed, they are used to mimic the start (coming out of the blocks) and conditioning the athelete to maintain a ~45 degree angle (as the leg drives rearward, & the torso should lean in same line). This of course is to allow the athlete to apply as much force as possible along the horizontal plane.
These tools are used without a doubt, and as EA34 says, speed is trained 10yds at a time. I'm sure we've all seen or been the guy who pops up at the start of a race.
Heavy sled work isn't bad for sprinting, it just isn't for speed development - GPP & posterior chain development. However, if you want to improve your time, obviously improving the first 10-15yds can go along way to acheive that. Joe D has his guys sprinting plus getting his guys stronger, particularly through the hams & glutes. I think Travis covered that clearly enough. Great topic.:)

slashkills
04-17-2009, 10:33 PM
Slask,

Performing jumps with a weight vest and then without one is an effective method of increasing power, "Complex Training".

I found "Complex Training" to be a very effective method of increasing strength and power. "Buliding Strength and Power With Complex Training" goes into the principle.
http://www.liftinglarge.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=19

The program works long term and it is very effective at developing power.

Kenny Croxdale

I dont know any of the scientific names for any theories or anything so please bare with me.

After removing the vest you can run faster and jump higher for a short time. It still builds your strength/power/speed and will continue to help increase your power and speed, but at a much slower rate than what is initially felt. Does that make sense?


I was trying to say that the long term effects may not be worth it if your going to hurt your joints. I would imagine that could really limit you in some activities that you are training for. I think the vest is a great tool on occassion but i dont think it should be a staple of any sort of program.

I dont really have time to look at that article you posted now but i will first thing in the morning.

Kenny Croxdale
04-18-2009, 08:42 AM
I dont know any of the scientific names for any theories or anything so please bare with me.

After removing the vest you can run faster and jump higher for a short time. It still builds your strength/power/speed and will continue to help increase your power and speed, but at a much slower rate than what is initially felt. Does that make sense?

Slash,

The article that I provided will answer many of your questions.

Briefly, yes after removing the vest you be able to generate more power and/or speed.

Complex Training will build power and/or speed at the same rate or better.

Dr Donald Chu's book, Explosive Power & Strength: Complex Training for Maximum Results goes into it. http://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Power-Strength-Complex-Training/dp/0873226437

Charles Poliquin "The Poliquin Principles" apply complex training for body building. http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_16_principle

Building Strength and Power With Complex Training goes into it. http://www.liftinglarge.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=19

Complex Training program can be written to increase power, speed, body building, etc.


I was trying to say that the long term effects may not be worth it if your going to hurt your joints. I would imagine that could really limit you in some activities that you are training for. I think the vest is a great tool on occassion but i dont think it should be a staple of any sort of program.

Any program that cause injury is worthless.

An effective program using a weight vest will NOT injury you joint and will provide you with a greater training effect.

I have a weight vest and often use it in my training program.

Complex Trainng can be incorporated in your program in a variety of ways. Using a weight vest is just one way.

Remember, "...method change, principles remain the same". Once you complete understand the principle of Complex Training, you can utilize various type of training to accomplixh the same results.


I dont really have time to look at that article you posted now but i will first thing in the morning.

The article and those provide in this post will help you.

I've utilzied Complex Training in my powerlifting program for 11 years. It works.

Kenny Croxdale

slashkills
04-18-2009, 10:15 AM
Very informative, thank you! Im taking a look at the links now.