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View Full Version : I don't seem to be retaining muscle through the night



e55ex_b0y
04-08-2009, 08:55 AM
I don't seem to be making any progress lately in both strength and muscle gains and believe its because during the night where I am without food for many hours my body is breaking down my muscle for fuel. It's not like I am losing all my gains during 1 night BUT a couple nights of muscle loss puts me at nothing gained so when the next workout comes round, I am unable to add weight to the bar or do more reps. I have a naturally VERY fast metabolism and need about 5000 calories a day to make gains and I'm thinking that while its somewhat slowed when I'm asleep its still going alot faster than the normal person. So when The last meal before bed big (cassein/milk/fat combo) has digested and been used up I am then in a catabolic state losing muscle at an accelerated rate.

The pattern I am noticing is I have a decent workout a few meals after I feel and look fuller/bigger and stronger then waking up next day whilst I am still bigger some has gone and I feel weaker, another sleep tonight will put me back to where I was before that workout it seems. So frustrating. It's like I take a step forward from a good workout and enough of the right foods afterwards then half a step back each night while I'm asleep. I have tried setting my alarm for the middle of the night and waking up to down a shake but I can't seem to wake up properly and just turn my alarm off and go back to sleep. The couple of times i did manage to wake up I then couldnt fall back to sleep and felt like **** the next day.

Would really like to hear from anyone else with a naturally fast metabsolism do you have the same problem? Or just any advice anyone has about this would be good.

Pimpstick
04-08-2009, 09:03 AM
1) Track your calories better. How much do you weigh?

This really shouldn't be an issue. If you down 1000 calories right before bed that should be plenty to get through the evening. I think you're just being paranoid. How long have you been training? What is your routine?

e55ex_b0y
04-08-2009, 09:25 AM
1) Track your calories better. How much do you weigh?

This really shouldn't be an issue. If you down 1000 calories right before bed that should be plenty to get through the evening. I think you're just being paranoid. How long have you been training? What is your routine?

I do track my calories I eat the same pretty much every day and it comes to 5000 on workout days and a little less on off days. I have been training for years but with little progress for a long time because I never ate enough to grow. It seems I now am getting enough at least when I'm awake anyways because I can feel and see the gains hapening, but when I wake up after a nights sleep though my clothes are not as tight muscles not as full and i feel physically weaker.

My routine is real simple its a full body 3x a week compound lifts, My form is great, I use a good tempo none of that swinging the weights about bull****. Obviously my workouts are not at fault If i am creating enough stimulas from them to notice gains, Its just I cannot retain the gains so that next workout I can add iron to the bar. This is one of the reasons i switched from what I was doing which was an upper lower split 2 on 1 off, to a routine where the working a bodypart is more frequent (MWF) in hopes to retain the gains between the workouts, but It still doesnt seem to be happening for me.

1000 calories would probably see most people through the night like u say with little to no muscle lost, but i am definatelly NOT most people when It comes to putting on muscle, my metabolism is insane0.

e55ex_b0y
04-08-2009, 09:26 AM
And I weigh last time I checked 198lbs from 130 or so when I started.

Pimpstick
04-08-2009, 09:27 AM
You didn't answer 2 of my questions. Post your diet. I highly doubt it's 5000 a day and you're not gaining weight unless you're 250 pounds. If you really are, then eat 6000. Problem solved.

Unreal
04-08-2009, 09:34 AM
Your completely paranoid. 1 day and 1 workout doesn't mean anything. Your body probably wouldn't be catabolic if your protein intake is high for days on a very low calorie diet. Dropping water weight over night is completely normal. As for not making gains, are you still gaining weight? Is 5k calories still working? Why are you eating less on non-workout days? Are you getting enough protein?

e55ex_b0y
04-08-2009, 09:38 AM
You didn't answer 2 of my questions. Post your diet. I highly doubt it's 5000 a day and you're not gaining weight unless you're 250 pounds. If you really are, then eat 6000. Problem solved.

My meals are 800 calories a day every 3 hours, with a 600 calorie post workout shake on workout days.... so 800 x 6 = 4800 non workout days + 600 workout days 5400 /300-350gs of protein.

I dont think throwing more calories at the problem during the day is the answer because I am actually putting on some fat so obviously am in a calorie surplus?

Pimpstick
04-08-2009, 09:44 AM
What does your 800 calories meal consist of EXACTLY?

If you're gaining weight, you're gaining muscle. When you get to a certain point you are going to gain more fat than muscle, this is natural. It's called diminishing returns.

AJ_H
04-08-2009, 09:56 AM
Just a suggestion: have you tried putting your shakes right next to your bed so when you wake up, you can just glug it straight down rather than having to get up and go to the kitchen or w/e?

e55ex_b0y
04-08-2009, 10:17 AM
What does your 800 calories meal consist of EXACTLY?

If you're gaining weight, you're gaining muscle. When you get to a certain point you are going to gain more fat than muscle, this is natural. It's called diminishing returns.

Egg white/cassein/whey powder blend (2 scoops) with 400ml whole milk and 100ml double cream 4x a day.

Then I have 2 meals consisting of beef and fish/olive oil and some green veg.

Post workout shake is Fruit juice + 2 scoop malto + 2 scoop whey.

I am gaining weight but none of my lifts are going up by reps or added weight (ive tried microloading tiny plates) so obviously its not good weight.

I'm not sure what you mean by diminishing returns? I am getting no returns right now for my efforts. :|

e55ex_b0y
04-08-2009, 10:18 AM
Just a suggestion: have you tried putting your shakes right next to your bed so when you wake up, you can just glug it straight down rather than having to get up and go to the kitchen or w/e?

Yep, I tried this. Had a shake pre made with a bunch of ice cubes in to keep it cool.

Pimpstick
04-08-2009, 10:25 AM
Diminishing returns means that you have to put in more effort the more advanced your training becomes. Think about it in terms of training to run a mile:

to go from an 8 min. mile to a 7 min. is easy. 7 to 6 is harder. 6 to 5 is really hard. 5 to 4 most will never accomplish. 4 to 3 is impossible. Same with weightlifting. It's easy to get to a lean 200 pounds for most people provided your training and diet are in good order. To go beyond that requires HEAVY eating and a lot of time (and drugs for many). If you're gaining weight, you're making progress. You may have to bulk to 230 pounds, then cut back to 210 to see any muscle gain. This is dependent on genetics / training / diet. Sounds like you know how to eat, post your routine so we can see if you're training right.

VikingWarlord
04-08-2009, 10:28 AM
It's paranoia. That's it.

The law of diminishing returns states, very basically, the same thing won't work the same way forever. You'll only make incremental progress. When was the last time you took time off? When's the last time you completely switched routines?

whiteman90909
04-08-2009, 11:20 AM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you in one of the most anabolic states when you're sleeping? I can't even imagine how you would become catabolic at night unless you go to bed drunk or aren't eating.

e55ex_b0y
04-08-2009, 11:21 AM
Diminishing returns means that you have to put in more effort the more advanced your training becomes. Think about it in terms of training to run a mile:

to go from an 8 min. mile to a 7 min. is easy. 7 to 6 is harder. 6 to 5 is really hard. 5 to 4 most will never accomplish. 4 to 3 is impossible. Same with weightlifting. It's easy to get to a lean 200 pounds for most people provided your training and diet are in good order. To go beyond that requires HEAVY eating and a lot of time (and drugs for many). If you're gaining weight, you're making progress. You may have to bulk to 230 pounds, then cut back to 210 to see any muscle gain. This is dependent on genetics / training / diet. Sounds like you know how to eat, post your routine so we can see if you're training right.

Alright well that makes sense. The thing is I'm not even a lean 198lbs so I dont think my genetics are maxed out and I need to go the drugs route just yet. I have done the **** load of food before and been 230lbs but it was a very fat 43 inch waist 230lbs. I thought It would = more growth and it did but that growth came in the form of ugly nasty fat. I dont mind putting some fat on if some muscles going to come with it, but that just doesnt seem to be happening for me right now.

My workout is a full body workout 3x a week MWF

Chin ups
DB incline
DB rows
Military Press
Yates Row
Skull cruhers
Squats

3 sets @ 4-8 reps taking each set to the point where If i was to do another rep I would fail. Have experimented with some rest pause stuff also.

VikingWarlord
04-08-2009, 11:24 AM
Wait. How much actual muscle have you put on?

This thing is going to turn out to be a trainwreck.

e55ex_b0y
04-08-2009, 11:26 AM
It's paranoia. That's it.

The law of diminishing returns states, very basically, the same thing won't work the same way forever. You'll only make incremental progress. When was the last time you took time off? When's the last time you completely switched routines?

I took time off not that long ago because I was completely burnt out putting so much time into all this and getting nothing good in return So don't think thats an issue. I have switched from routines alot, thinking that it must be my routine thats bad and the next one will give me progress... but I just stall with progression within a week or 2 on each of them.

e55ex_b0y
04-08-2009, 11:31 AM
Wait. How much actual muscle have you put on?

This thing is going to turn out to be a trainwreck.

Well When I started my arms measured about 11 inches they are now 15.5, chest/back was about 35 inches is now 43, shoulders I dont have measurements but are quite a bit wider (probably my best bodypart I've made gains on), legs were about 19-20 inches now 23. My overall weight gain is 130-200 - I have no idea what percentage of that is muscle.

Pimpstick
04-08-2009, 12:06 PM
Based on your measurements, unless you are tall you are a little fat right now. I dunno man, you're making this really complicated when it shouldn't be. My suggestion is to continue doing what you're doing, come back in 6 months if you haven't progressed at all. As long as you're gaining weight, you're gaining muscle. If you're losing weight at a slow pace and eating well, you are losing fat with minimal muscle loss. It should be as easy as that.

You're routine is good enough that you should be progressing.

e55ex_b0y
04-08-2009, 12:34 PM
yup, I am a little bit chubby right now waist is 36-37 and my height is 5'10.

Not sure I agree with the if your gaining weight your gaining muscle though, if my lifts are not going up then my body has no reason to grow and I'm only putting on fat? ;(

I found the following that supports muscle can be lost during the night, you disagree with these sources?

e55ex_b0y
04-08-2009, 12:34 PM
sources....


http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_science/stop_the_catabolic_insanity

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KFY/is_10_22/ai_n7581364/?tag=content;col1

http://www.gyminee.com/groups/43-Get-Huge/subjects/599-Bodybuilding-for-Real-People-Nutrition

http://www.leehayward.com/art19.htm

http://build-muscle-gain-weight.com/weight-gain-articles/6-essential-mass-building-tips-for-hardgainers.html

Edit: fixed links

whiteman90909
04-08-2009, 12:36 PM
Not one of those links go to an article.

Pimpstick
04-08-2009, 12:41 PM
the last link you posted the guy recommends flexing and posing in the mirror to get bigger... dude, the information on this site is 1000x better than the crap you just posted. listen to the people here and you will get big. how long have you been training anyways??

#5 - Flex and Pose Between Sets
This really helps bring out shape and size. people will look at you funny but that is why they will stay small and you are getting big. You will notice subtle changes when you start doing this.

LOL this is the dumbest thing i've ever heard.

Unreal
04-08-2009, 12:42 PM
It can be if you put your body in a catabolic state by doing tons of cardio/exercise with little protein, but your not doing that. How is your sleep? How is your rest? I think you need to mix up rep ranges. Going 1 rep short of failure 3x a week is not good. Try a west side approach of a DE/ME/Etc days.

e55ex_b0y
04-08-2009, 12:43 PM
Sorry fixed the links, my bad lol

And I've been training for a few years now, much of which was spent spinning my wheels.

Pimpstick
04-08-2009, 12:44 PM
so in a few yers you have put on 70 pounds, when admittedly a good portion of that time you had no clue what you were doing. Give it time, keep doing what you're doing, and the results will come.

Sensei
04-08-2009, 12:56 PM
I think the solution is not sleep at all so you don't risk falling into a catabolic state...

e55ex_b0y
04-08-2009, 01:02 PM
I think the solution is not sleep at all so you don't risk falling into a catabolic state...

or one of these with protein in ;D

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1112/ivdripbagsthumb2512686.jpg

VikingWarlord
04-08-2009, 01:57 PM
I took time off not that long ago because I was completely burnt out putting so much time into all this and getting nothing good in return So don't think thats an issue. I have switched from routines alot, thinking that it must be my routine thats bad and the next one will give me progress... but I just stall with progression within a week or 2 on each of them.


Well When I started my arms measured about 11 inches they are now 15.5, chest/back was about 35 inches is now 43, shoulders I dont have measurements but are quite a bit wider (probably my best bodypart I've made gains on), legs were about 19-20 inches now 23. My overall weight gain is 130-200 - I have no idea what percentage of that is muscle.

These two posts make it abundantly clear that you have absolutely NO idea what's going on.

You are going to need to scrap pretty much everything you've been doing and start from scratch. Start by building your diet from the ground up. If you're really eating 5000kCal per day, most of what you gained hasn't been muscle...you pretty much said that yourself when you said that you're gaining but not getting stronger.

There are a number of proven training routines that will be miles ahead of what you're doing. Also, you have to give a routine more than a week or two before you say progress stops.

I think that your method of throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks has screwed things up. It's now time to spend time here, read everything, realize that it's time to check the ego, and do things more efficiently.

Mercuryblade
04-08-2009, 02:22 PM
I don't seem to be making any progress lately in both strength and muscle gains and believe its because during the night where I am without food for many hours my body is breaking down my muscle for fuel. It's not like I am losing all my gains during 1 night BUT a couple nights of muscle loss puts me at nothing gained so when the next workout comes round, I am unable to add weight to the bar or do more reps. I have a naturally VERY fast metabolism and need about 5000 calories a day to make gains and I'm thinking that while its somewhat slowed when I'm asleep its still going alot faster than the normal person. So when The last meal before bed big (cassein/milk/fat combo) has digested and been used up I am then in a catabolic state losing muscle at an accelerated rate.

The pattern I am noticing is I have a decent workout a few meals after I feel and look fuller/bigger and stronger then waking up next day whilst I am still bigger some has gone and I feel weaker, another sleep tonight will put me back to where I was before that workout it seems. So frustrating. It's like I take a step forward from a good workout and enough of the right foods afterwards then half a step back each night while I'm asleep. I have tried setting my alarm for the middle of the night and waking up to down a shake but I can't seem to wake up properly and just turn my alarm off and go back to sleep. The couple of times i did manage to wake up I then couldnt fall back to sleep and felt like **** the next day.

Would really like to hear from anyone else with a naturally fast metabsolism do you have the same problem? Or just any advice anyone has about this would be good.

I have a really fast metabolism.
I eat about 4-5 hours after I fall asleep at night, then go back to bed. Otherwise I get too hungry in the morning.

Track your calories on www.fitday.com and see if they really come out to 5000.

At 198lbs and 5000 calores/day there is no reason why you wouldn't be gaining weight.

VikingWarlord
04-08-2009, 02:37 PM
Just so you know, he didn't say he's not gaining weight:



I am gaining weight but none of my lifts are going up by reps or added weight (ive tried microloading tiny plates) so obviously its not good weight.

He's gaining too much too quickly and, as far as I can tell, expecting most of it to be lean mass.

Mercuryblade
04-08-2009, 02:42 PM
Just so you know, he didn't say he's not gaining weight:





Reading comprehension FTW.

This is why I have to take legalized speed to get any effective studying done.

VikingWarlord
04-08-2009, 02:58 PM
Don't feel bad. You're not the only one that missed it. A few other people glazed over it too.

Hwyman
04-08-2009, 04:10 PM
You do sound paranoid. While I'm sure you are getting the calories you need...try having more real food. It might make life more enjoyable...at the very least you might get more fiber. Are you taking any supplements? A multivitamin mght help. Creatine...always good. Try WBB1.1 (skip the loading phase) and report back in 8 wks.

e55ex_b0y
04-08-2009, 06:48 PM
These two posts make it abundantly clear that you have absolutely NO idea what's going on.

You are going to need to scrap pretty much everything you've been doing and start from scratch. Start by building your diet from the ground up. If you're really eating 5000kCal per day, most of what you gained hasn't been muscle...you pretty much said that yourself when you said that you're gaining but not getting stronger.

There are a number of proven training routines that will be miles ahead of what you're doing. Also, you have to give a routine more than a week or two before you say progress stops.

I think that your method of throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks has screwed things up. It's now time to spend time here, read everything, realize that it's time to check the ego, and do things more efficiently.

Well I think you and others might be onto something with regards to maybe trying different things training wise and I'm open to suggestions on that. But don't think my diet needs a complete overhaul which sounds like what your saying. I mean I'm getting a good number of grams of quality protein a day and I believe I'm only in a slight calorie surplus (for my smokin' metabolism), which is where one wants to be?. There has been some fat gain the last few weeks but nothing major.

Is there a Journal section on here? Might help if i write everything down I'm doing and get input on progress that way?

e55ex_b0y
04-08-2009, 06:54 PM
Sitting here right now at my laptop, Acting out the bench movement or a row or whatever I just FEEL stronger and like fuller in that muscle.....like if I was to do that lift right now, I could confidently add a small amount of weight or do more reps with previous weight. I BET when I wake up tommorow I wont feel that way at all and trying to add weight form will goto **** or trying for an extra rep I will fail.....

VikingWarlord
04-08-2009, 08:10 PM
Doing what you're doing isn't getting you what you want. This is usually an indicator that it's time to do something different.

You don't actually know what your maintenance is, so you don't actually know how much of a caloric surplus you're in. You also don't know what your composition was at the start, don't know what your composition is now, so you have no way to measure any real progress. I find it incredibly hard to believe that you're only in a "slight surplus" eating 5000kCal at a bodyweight of under 200lbs.

You feel stronger pantomiming compound movements while sitting in your desk chair? That's either some amazingly effective positive thinking or good old fashioned self-delusion.

Ultimately, you'll do whatever the hell you want but it's time to do some serious examination and ask yourself if you're really doing everything as efficiently as possible.

Sensei
04-08-2009, 10:23 PM
or one of these with protein in ;D

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1112/ivdripbagsthumb2512686.jpg
That would be funny if I didn't think you were a least a little serious about it... You need to sleep. You need to eat. You need to train hard. You need to rest and not obsess about it.

I have zero interest in the links you provided and didn't bother to read them, but let me just say that you could waste a number of years reading the crap on t-mag and never be a whit closer to your goals. Find something simple and effective, limit your exercises to the only the best and hammer away at them.

Unreal
04-08-2009, 10:25 PM
Feeling flat in the morning is normal for a lot of people. I can't lift heavy in the morning. It doesn't mean you lost muscle. Some days you will have good days at the gym, and some bad. Your being way too paranoid over one day or night. Keep lifting and eating correctly and the lifts will go up. You may not add weight to a bar for 3-4 weeks. Maybe you get 1 more rep. Maybe not. Then one day you will add some weight. Maybe the next week you lose that weight. Who knows. As long as the average keeps moving up. 3 weeks ago I benched 215 or 5x5. Last week I did 195. Did I lose 20lbs off my bench? No. I just got a bad nights sleep, and had an off day.

Stop thinking and eat and lift. That and do what Viking is saying.

Sensei
04-08-2009, 11:18 PM
You feel stronger pantomiming compound movements while sitting in your desk chair?
I always feel stronger typing at the computer than I do in the gym. Right now, I bet I could squat 1000.

VikingWarlord
04-09-2009, 10:31 AM
I always feel stronger typing at the computer than I do in the gym. Right now, I bet I could squat 1000.

Pussy. I could totally pantomime squat at least a semi trailer.

MadScientist
04-09-2009, 11:36 AM
Your body will not mass burn muscle when youre sleeping.

Think hibernation,
the body releases chemicals which increase usage of fat as feul to keep you warm.

Slow acting proteins and some plain oats would help to feul muscle gain, or inhibit muscle loss while you sleep. Any muscle loss would be very small and not noticeable though.

You are probably just seeing the result of water loss while you sleep.
And any pump you had going would be gone.

Drink water if/when you wake up to P