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KoSh
04-09-2009, 11:30 AM
So I coach HS ball. We've been doing workouts all offseason and such, but the program, in my mind, has a severe identity crisis going on.

We lift 3 days a week.

We do Power Cleans sometimes, sometimes Hang Cleans, sometimes squats (not all the time, haven't squatted in a week), bench presses, OH presses, push presses, Romanian Deads, Dead lifts, etc.

We also do 7-8 exercises of 4 sets and 6-10 reps each day.

I'm of the opinion we need to pick one or the other of hang cleans/power cleans. We need to squat at least 2x a week, probably the same thing with bench. OH presses could fit into the Wednesday workout. And maybe deadlift/romanian deadlift every other week. We need to have a linear progression as well.

Am I wrong? I admit I could be, but based on everything I've learned that's the way to go.

Any advice?

joey54
04-09-2009, 06:41 PM
Who designed the program and how much input do you have?

The reps seem high for an exercise like cleans and not squatting in over a week doesn't seem right at all for a football program.

Your take on what you should be doing with the guys is much better than what is being done.

KoSh
04-09-2009, 08:44 PM
Who designed the program and how much input do you have?

The reps seem high for an exercise like cleans and not squatting in over a week doesn't seem right at all for a football program.

Your take on what you should be doing with the guys is much better than what is being done.

One of the other coaches. I'm one of the strength coaches, but I don't get much input, I'm usually outvoted on those things.

I would sit in the 3-5 sets of 1-6 rep range for pretty much every lift besides assistance exercises like the pull ups.

I'm trying to get control of the summer program. I want to test all of the kids one rep maxxes at the end of the school year (That's June here). We've been testing 3 rep maxxes. I want to put them on Madcow's variation on Starr, Rippetoe's starting strength or something similar. Or maybe Mad Cow's for those that have a solid grasp on the weight room and SS for those that don't. Maybe even have exit interviews with each player prior to summer.

To be fair, this other guy knows his stuff. Inside and out. I just don't know if it's beneficial for football. But he also came from a program that had tons of success when he was in HS, so it's tough to argue with him. He's a good guy, too.

cwoodrb105
04-09-2009, 08:47 PM
I'm currently playing on a high school football team and in the offseason weight lifting season also. If you'd like, I can post our "big 3" of each day to see an example of what we do.

KoSh
04-09-2009, 08:57 PM
I absolutely appreciate the offer, cwood. But I've been training with the big 3 for years. I just thought I was losing my mind going through this program and that somehow, somewhere I was wrong in what I was thinking.

I'm fairly certain I'm not wrong at this point. Now I need to do some convincing.

Thanks though, man. Nice to see a young athlete that's willing to help. Good on you :)

cwoodrb105
04-09-2009, 09:04 PM
Well, best of luck! Most of your workouts is stuff that we also do. All good lifts in my opinion, but I also love lifting. Coming from a player, I would rather if you had those workouts set into days so I knew what to expect for the rest of the week when I walk into the weight room on a monday. Handing out notebooks also or suggesting them might help too if you don't already do that. Worked wonders for a lot of kids I play with. Good luck with your season and the summer training coming up!

slashkills
04-09-2009, 09:30 PM
I hated not having a set schedule with my football team. I like knowing what is planned out.

joey54
04-10-2009, 08:01 AM
One of the other coaches. I'm one of the strength coaches, but I don't get much input, I'm usually outvoted on those things.

I would sit in the 3-5 sets of 1-6 rep range for pretty much every lift besides assistance exercises like the pull ups.

I'm trying to get control of the summer program. I want to test all of the kids one rep maxxes at the end of the school year (That's June here). We've been testing 3 rep maxxes. I want to put them on Madcow's variation on Starr, Rippetoe's starting strength or something similar. Or maybe Mad Cow's for those that have a solid grasp on the weight room and SS for those that don't. Maybe even have exit interviews with each player prior to summer.

To be fair, this other guy knows his stuff. Inside and out. I just don't know if it's beneficial for football. But he also came from a program that had tons of success when he was in HS, so it's tough to argue with him. He's a good guy, too.


Based off the program you guys are following now, what are the strongest 3 rep maxes on the team for the exercises you test?

WillNoble
04-10-2009, 08:09 AM
So I coach HS ball. We've been doing workouts all offseason and such, but the program, in my mind, has a severe identity crisis going on.

We lift 3 days a week.

We do Power Cleans sometimes, sometimes Hang Cleans, sometimes squats (not all the time, haven't squatted in a week), bench presses, OH presses, push presses, Romanian Deads, Dead lifts, etc.

We also do 7-8 exercises of 4 sets and 6-10 reps each day.

I'm of the opinion we need to pick one or the other of hang cleans/power cleans. We need to squat at least 2x a week, probably the same thing with bench. OH presses could fit into the Wednesday workout. And maybe deadlift/romanian deadlift every other week. We need to have a linear progression as well.

Am I wrong? I admit I could be, but based on everything I've learned that's the way to go.

Any advice?

There doesnt seem to be a whole lot of thought to your program...

What is your main goal (is this offseason, in season, skill positions, power positions)

Lay out for us what a typical week template looks like, and not just the amount of exercises...

WillNoble
04-10-2009, 08:10 AM
Also would someone mve this to sport specific, and not the BB board please


Thanks...

KoSh
04-10-2009, 09:18 AM
Based off the program you guys are following now, what are the strongest 3 rep maxes on the team for the exercises you test?

Bench: 250x3
Squat: 375x3
Deadlift: 385x3
Power Clean: 185x3

And then there's a large gap between that guy and everyone else.

Next highest is:

Bench: 225
Squat: 315
Deadlift: 315
Power Clean: 155


There doesnt seem to be a whole lot of thought to your program...

What is your main goal (is this offseason, in season, skill positions, power positions)

Lay out for us what a typical week template looks like, and not just the amount of exercises...

As I said, I have virtually no say in the program. I can't give you a template for a week because there is no template. It changes on a week to week basis. I would have provided one had there been one, believe me. There's no consistency with what we're doing whatsoever. Everyone is doing the same workout as well. there is no position specific workout. Nothing.

I agree there isn't a whole lot of thought, he writes the program the night before lifting day.

And I wish I could tell you what the goals are. I've asked. He said "Get stronger".

*shrug*

WillNoble
04-10-2009, 09:35 AM
As I said, I have virtually no say in the program. I can't give you a template for a week because there is no template. It changes on a week to week basis. I would have provided one had there been one, believe me. There's no consistency with what we're doing whatsoever. Everyone is doing the same workout as well. there is no position specific workout. Nothing.

I agree there isn't a whole lot of thought, he writes the program the night before lifting day.

And I wish I could tell you what the goals are. I've asked. He said "Get stronger".

*shrug*


Ok, then a simple question, what are YOUR goals for this program?

joey54
04-10-2009, 09:55 AM
Bench: 250x3
Squat: 375x3
Deadlift: 385x3
Power Clean: 185x3

And then there's a large gap between that guy and everyone else.

Next highest is:

Bench: 225
Squat: 315
Deadlift: 315
Power Clean: 155



As I said, I have virtually no say in the program. I can't give you a template for a week because there is no template. It changes on a week to week basis. I would have provided one had there been one, believe me. There's no consistency with what we're doing whatsoever. Everyone is doing the same workout as well. there is no position specific workout. Nothing.

I agree there isn't a whole lot of thought, he writes the program the night before lifting day.

And I wish I could tell you what the goals are. I've asked. He said "Get stronger".

*shrug*

I was thinking they were going to be a bit low. Those numbers are proof changes need to be made.

KoSh
04-10-2009, 10:05 AM
Ok, then a simple question, what are YOUR goals for this program?

Easy. Make our athletes more explosive and powerful. Every position player can stand to gain some mass, most are too small for their position.

Furthermore, I'd like to have the kids able to set goals and reach them through a linear training model.

The workout only reads, for example:

Power Cleans: 3x8

It's not telling you weights or any of that. And sometimes (note the sometimes) it does, but they're doing 50-80% of their 3 rep max. Then the next week it will be the same number. Then the same number the next week. The kids need to see the progression in order for them to buy into the program.

I'd like to have each kid bring a journal to record how much weight they are doing and increase that by 2.5% per session.

Most importantly, I want these kids to have a sense of ownership to the program. I want them to feel like this is what they want to do. They hate coming into the gym not knowing what's going on for the day.

A sense of ownership would mean the players want to be there. If the players want to be there, we'll get a good bonding experience going, which is sure to translate onto the field. That's probably the most important thing.

KingWilder
04-10-2009, 11:20 AM
http://www.crossfitfootball.com/ looks interesting....

joey54
04-10-2009, 11:59 AM
http://www.crossfitfootball.com/ looks interesting....

For a conditioning test it would be interesting to try, but to follow solely as a program, I would pass. I can't believe Will hasn't already mentioned Joe's training methods, as I know he thinks highly of DeFranco. I would say modeling the things he has athletes doing would yield great results.

WillNoble
04-11-2009, 07:55 AM
For a conditioning test it would be interesting to try, but to follow solely as a program, I would pass. I can't believe Will hasn't already mentioned Joe's training methods, as I know he thinks highly of DeFranco. I would say modeling the things he has athletes doing would yield great results.

Hahaha you beat me to it... I wasnt online much yesterday and forgot to post up on here (as this is in the BB section and not sports specific, where it should be)

That crossfit nonsense for football is a joke, sure its a fancy way to condition an athlete but the resultant athlete will be ill-prepared for the rigors of the greatest sport on earth.

As joey has already said, Joe Defranco has put out some of the best free info for the training of football on this planet, not only is his stuff HIGHLY EFFECTIVE it is also easily accessible to even the most intermediate of coaches and easy to implement in a team or group based environment.


http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/archive/articles_westside.htm


http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/archive/articles_westside2.htm


http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/archive/articles_westside3.htm



http://www.youtube.com/joedefranco

Ryan Hale
04-11-2009, 10:06 AM
Kosh,

I can really relate to your post/situation.Will Noble is a very smart man when it comes to training and lifting,along with many others here.There are so many ways to skin a cat it's crazy.

Here is what I ran into with our high school.I started to help about 6 months ago.In the past only summer programs were used,nothing as far as a off-season or year round program.So these kids were only lifting about 10-12 weeks a year.I'm not saying I'm right or wrong but I hope these ideas help you.

Your dealing with other coaches and faculty and they all have thier own ideas,which puts you in bad sitautions at times.Eduacation is the key.Copy and print post like these so you can relay others/outside thoughts to the powers that be.One coach loves deadlifts,3 others coaches hate them,and so on.
The kids have to want to come in and lift.They need and want structure when it comes to thier lives.A good solid program is a must.
As far as the same weights each week,we try to move forward each and every week.Sure there at times when a kid will hit a roadblock,but add weight.
I try to keep things simple.Cover the basics of course.I have found out a 2-3 day a week program is realy working great.It keeps the kids fresh,they want to come in.
Get progress charts on the wall.Figure out bodyweight max's so you can compare that 145# CB to a 275# lineman.Get all time lifting records up somewhere,like a powerboard.
After 6 months we have seen a huge jump in what the kids I work with are doing for thier lifts.And I'm far from being a expert.A simple program,move forward,keep the kids fresh,keep the other coaches eduacated,and you will have good results.
I wish you the best of luck,
PM me if you have any questions.


Ryan Hale

ThomasG
04-11-2009, 02:37 PM
Bench: 250x3
Squat: 375x3
Deadlift: 385x3
Power Clean: 185x3

And then there's a large gap between that guy and everyone else.

Next highest is:

Bench: 225
Squat: 315
Deadlift: 315
Power Clean: 155


As I said, I have virtually no say in the program. I can't give you a template for a week because there is no template. It changes on a week to week basis. I would have provided one had there been one, believe me. There's no consistency with what we're doing whatsoever. Everyone is doing the same workout as well. there is no position specific workout. Nothing.

I agree there isn't a whole lot of thought, he writes the program the night before lifting day.

And I wish I could tell you what the goals are. I've asked. He said "Get stronger".

*shrug*


Dont want to be a dick or put your kids down but those are some low numbers. Props to you for wanting to change **** up for the better of the team.

joey54
04-11-2009, 06:55 PM
Hahaha you beat me to it... I wasnt online much yesterday and forgot to post up on here (as this is in the BB section and not sports specific, where it should be)

That crossfit nonsense for football is a joke, sure its a fancy way to condition an athlete but the resultant athlete will be ill-prepared for the rigors of the greatest sport on earth.

As joey has already said, Joe Defranco has put out some of the best free info for the training of football on this planet, not only is his stuff HIGHLY EFFECTIVE it is also easily accessible to even the most intermediate of coaches and easy to implement in a team or group based environment.


http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/archive/articles_westside.htm


http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/archive/articles_westside2.htm


http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/archive/articles_westside3.htm



http://www.youtube.com/joedefranco


Moved it for you Will. Kosh, does your fellow coach know anything about Joe Defranco and his work with athletes?

KoSh
04-20-2009, 07:11 AM
Ok, so as luck would have it, I have control over the weight room now due to the other guy having other coaching responsibilities in other sports.

I've reviewed a bunch of workouts, and I've settle with DeFranco's 4-Day Split Westside for Skinny Bastards as the routine we're going to go with. However, our head coach wants us to be both dead lifting and squatting during the week. The squatting I can use overhead squats, front squats, Bulgarian Split Squats, etc.

But he really wants both of those lifts in... And he wants them heavy. I can use one as the main lift in the Max Effort Lower Body Day, but I need to find a spot to incorporate the other. More than likely, I'll move the deadlift rather than the squat, and possibly make that a secondary lift on the ME LB day. Working sets of 3x3 for it. This way they're not getting destroyed but they are getting the practice in.

The head coach would also like us to continue power cleaning. I'm not sure the lift is all that necessary, however. But, just in case...

Where would you guys plug in power cleaning and deadlifting (or squatting) to keep the workout Westside for Skinny Bastards, but meet the requirements the coach wants? For the record, I hate screwing with workouts more than anything...

Any help is again, appreciated.

WILD BILL
04-20-2009, 09:45 AM
Hey man I just took over the strength program at a H.S. as well. What you need to do is lay the job on the line and say listen Im gona run it and if u dont like the way I run it find a new coach. Thats what I did and everyone has backed off cause none of them want to do it. I to took out power cleaning all together. Kept hang pulls and OHP but on separate days. I myself like to do both deadlift and squat on the same day but like you said I dont do both heavy. Ill do a reg squat with my kids to a max effort then do a pin pull or a stiff leg DL or something like that. But all secondary movements I have my players do are for a 3 x 3 and I think it works great.

I think you know what ur doing and I think all you need to do is get everyone else to just back off and say hey if you dont like it find a new guy, my way or the highway.

Good luck to you man.

slashkills
04-20-2009, 03:15 PM
If you have to do powercleans i would do them as accessory work on one of the days. Maybe DE squat?

KoSh
04-21-2009, 06:23 AM
slashkills,

That's kind of where I was thinking they fit best.

I just don't like cleaning with the kids because they don't do it right. The other coaches school of thought is: If they don't practice, they'll never do them right.

My school of thought is: We don't need to do them anyways.

WillNoble
04-21-2009, 07:54 AM
I wouldnt do them whatsover, the ROI on the time investment is very poor.

If you're deadset on them, just have them do some explosive high pulls from both a standard and a snatch grip

BigBatz
04-21-2009, 07:57 AM
I'm glad I ran into this post. I am also running our districts weightroom. Glad to see other people stepping up to make sure their student athletes are getting access to the tools that will help the be successful. I am also trying to shy away from any type of cleans for the same reason. I have been considering using WS4SB once I can have access to the whole team. Right now we are on a power cycle with the volunteers I have comming in now. Just trying to get them as strong as I can. Hell most of those volunteers want to start a powerlifting team next year.

Sensei
04-21-2009, 08:58 AM
Let me be the odd man out and say that power cleans and/or hang cleans are a great exercise.

Do high school kids need them? No, most kids don't and you could meet their needs with other exercises.

Is it a poor choice to include them in terms of time? Maybe.

IMHO, every kid should be doing plenty of squats, including front squats. IMHO, every kid should be doing kettlebell swings (yeah, I know I'm biased). If you can do front squats and swings competently, the learning curve for power cleans will be much, much shorter and it will not require much further investment to include cleans.

KoSh
04-21-2009, 09:15 AM
Sensei,

We are very strapped for cash. We are in a huge school district (4 high schools, 4 middle schools) and all the schools need equipment for their sports. We do fund raisers, and we've upgraded our weight room by a ton the last few years. Issue is, our weight room is currently a split room, we share it with a photography room. Yup. Makes sense.

We have no access to kettleballs at the moment. I am conducting a fundraiser this month, and any extra money will go to the student/athletes, but in the form of weight lifting equipment. I'm working on a project to get every single athletic program on the same page as far as fundraisers go so that I can vastly improve our weight room.

We've already gotten to the point where we're going back into the "cardio" room next year after 4 years in the photography room. It's a step in the right direction.

And for the record, I agree with you that hang cleans/power cleans are a great exercise, but it's an incredibly difficult exercise to teach the student/athletes to do correctly in the time alotted. I have an hour and a half, three days a week to do a dynamic warm up, lift and do a team building exercise. Not exactly a ton of time, and to have to keep teaching power clean form every workout it limits what we do even more.

I'd like to have a weekend "seminar" to teach them how to properly clean, issue is only six people will show up, and we can't make it mandatory attendance.

I'm trying to find ways around all these things, and I may just do the "seminar" on it anyways if we choose to keep the power clean in the program, because if the six kids show up learn it, they can help the others.

I intorduced WS4SB to them yesterday, and they absolutely love it. It's fun for them to lift that way. Different exercises than normal, yet we're still working the big three. They told me that this is the most fun they've had in the weight room... Ever.

So, it looks like we're headed in the right direction right now. Now to improve on some other things and keep the ball rolling :)

Sensei
04-21-2009, 10:19 AM
I work at a high school Kosh - I feel your fundraising, facility, and organizational pain...

My opinion is that you CAN'T teach powercleans to most HSers without a firm base of front squats and explosive hip extension (swings). Building that base will take time. Some athletes will be able to do them quickly, others will need much more time and practice with fundamental drills (front squats and swings) - a seminar type of situation won't do much for that.

Depends on what you do, but in most high school weight rooms, the program is not effective for half the kids.

schmitty199
04-21-2009, 07:29 PM
Make your routine unique and constantly changing.. most high school football players arent going to be as motivated to lift as the people on this board. When it becomes the same old stuff every week most highschool kids just lose motivation. Mix it up, and add in as much competition as you can, races, rep competitions ect. IMO even more important then weight lifting for highschool football is teaching the kids how to win. Push them to win day in and out in the offseason and it'll translate to the field.

KingJustin
04-21-2009, 11:20 PM
For a conditioning test it would be interesting to try, but to follow solely as a program, I would pass. I can't believe Will hasn't already mentioned Joe's training methods, as I know he thinks highly of DeFranco. I would say modeling the things he has athletes doing would yield great results.

Oh come on, that's harsh! You're getting a lot of heavy work every week, and it's almost all in the 1-5 rep range. You're also getting DE work and you're getting the rep work. All the movements are compounds and power movements. And yeah, you get the conditioning, too, which is crucial on the football field. Squatting 700 lbs won't mean **** if you lose 50% of your power by the 4th quarter because your conditioning isn't up to par.

Look at the times and weights posted. There's a lot of strong athletes, and a lot of these guys are high schoolers.

And, look at the guy behind the program. He's not exactly a little cardio bunny.
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFitFootball_Origins.wmv

As far as results -- John started working with a 5a(?) Texas high school team a couple years ago. That team won the state championship this year. And the workouts meet the "competitive" aspect better than anything else you can do. CrossFit itself is a lot more than just conditioning, but this is 3 steps further toward strength.

KoSh
04-22-2009, 05:36 AM
KingJustin,

I think that workout would be nice... If I had access to the team more than 3 days a week. These guys aren't motivated enough (yet) to go out and do these workouts on their own, and some of them they can't do on their own. So something like that won't really work for me.

slashkills
04-22-2009, 07:26 AM
Oh come on, that's harsh! You're getting a lot of heavy work every week, and it's almost all in the 1-5 rep range. You're also getting DE work and you're getting the rep work. All the movements are compounds and power movements. And yeah, you get the conditioning, too, which is crucial on the football field. Squatting 700 lbs won't mean **** if you lose 50% of your power by the 4th quarter because your conditioning isn't up to par.

Look at the times and weights posted. There's a lot of strong athletes, and a lot of these guys are high schoolers.

And, look at the guy behind the program. He's not exactly a little cardio bunny.
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFitFootball_Origins.wmv

As far as results -- John started working with a 5a(?) Texas high school team a couple years ago. That team won the state championship this year. And the workouts meet the "competitive" aspect better than anything else you can do. CrossFit itself is a lot more than just conditioning, but this is 3 steps further toward strength.


Im on my freshman football team and i can say that our team would not really be into trying a crossfit routine. It would be a good idea for conditioning but we would rather just run gassers and sprints every practice for conditioning. Thats what we did and it helped. We won first in our division with a 7-2 record. Since we are freshman we dont have playoffs or anything.

slashkills
04-22-2009, 07:36 AM
I'd like to have a weekend "seminar" to teach them how to properly clean, issue is only six people will show up, and we can't make it mandatory attendance.


What days does your team workout? Could you possiably have the meeting after school? i think more people would be willing to show up then. If attendance is an issue i would try and have more competitions like the 40yard,bench for reps, and other stuff like that. When our coaches started doing this attendance shot up. If that doesnt work you can tell them if they want a spot next season that they need to be in the weight room.

KingJustin
04-22-2009, 09:21 AM
I played lacrosse 4 years and ran many gassers. My conditioning now is much, much, much better than it was back then. And, I get strength benefits.

I go to a D3 school now (I'm in a grad program), but even the washed up athletes that don't really care that go here like the crossfit program's competitiveness. You get variety, and everything is very competitive.

Sensei
04-22-2009, 10:32 AM
Oh come on, that's harsh! You're getting a lot of heavy work every week, and it's almost all in the 1-5 rep range.
I realize that things can be "scaled", but 225 is NOT heavy. I haven't been following the football programming, but over the past week, that's the heaviest poundage used (and it was for cleans).

I know I come off like I'm bashing CF and I'm not, BUT one of the major criticisms of CF is the programming and it's apparent arbitrariness. I've posed the question many times to Anthony and others and never really gotten a response other than a very general and vague "It is periodized". Unless I were to map out the training myself (and even if I did), I don't know that I find that to be true.

Why is the programming and exercise selection better than, for example, EDT, or WSSB? Does (almost) every exercise/circuit need to be "for time" or "as many rounds as possible"? Is that even desirable?

There's no question that there are some very strong and capable athletes and coaches using and feeding CF. The only question is if it is "the best" for individual clientele. I like many of the ideas put forth by CF. I've worked with affiliates. I just don't buy into it as the end-all be-all of training for every sport or need.


You're also getting DE work and you're getting the rep work. All the movements are compounds and power movements. And yeah, you get the conditioning, too, which is crucial on the football field. Squatting 700 lbs won't mean **** if you lose 50% of your power by the 4th quarter because your conditioning isn't up to par.

Look at the times and weights posted. There's a lot of strong athletes, and a lot of these guys are high schoolers.

And, look at the guy behind the program. He's not exactly a little cardio bunny.
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFitFootball_Origins.wmv

As far as results -- John started working with a 5a(?) Texas high school team a couple years ago. That team won the state championship this year. And the workouts meet the "competitive" aspect better than anything else you can do. CrossFit itself is a lot more than just conditioning, but this is 3 steps further toward strength.

KoSh
04-22-2009, 10:53 AM
What days does your team workout? Could you possiably have the meeting after school? i think more people would be willing to show up then. If attendance is an issue i would try and have more competitions like the 40yard,bench for reps, and other stuff like that. When our coaches started doing this attendance shot up. If that doesnt work you can tell them if they want a spot next season that they need to be in the weight room.

We can't make attendance mandatory, it's against district rules.

Attendance is down, but mostly due to other sports, and the other sports don't believe in lifting midseason. (Unbelievably annoying).

Meeting won't work after school, too many people in other sports. Trust me, I've went over all the possible options here. There are a few ideas I have that could work great, going to try to work with those.

A few people aren't happy that I cut out cleaning for now, but it had to be done in order for the kids to really benefit from this training... They may make an appearance this summer, though :)

Sensei
04-22-2009, 11:07 AM
It is amazing how horrible some of the S&C high school programs are. When I started working where I am now, the program did ZERO strength work during the season. At the beginning of the season, they were all big and strong - by the end of the season, they looked like they were malnourished POWs. It required a lot of work on my part and others to change that.

WillNoble
04-22-2009, 11:55 AM
Ive really had about enough of this "crossfit for football" nonsense...


Ive read the programs Ive seen it in action via youtube, and quite frankly its a piss poor choice at best for the sport.

Yes they do low reps, but they do little to address any weaknesses not covered by main exercises, and their is very little thought (if any), to the progression of exercises or weights. Also within this crap is the conditioning. Now I will admit crossfit has advantages in the conditioning realm but for football this is true ret@rdation, the ONLY point at which crossfit would have any applicability is during winter conditioning, but even then the amount and the structure of the conditioning is poor for football players because again, the limited on the field applicability.

I also love that they throw up a couple of former NFL'ers as the proponents of this, its a cash ploy for them and easy appeal to authority for the crossfail fans. Using that logic we should all follow Cris Carter, Mike Golic, Dan Marino, and Don Shula in their support of TV's infamous Nutrisystem...

AJL11
04-22-2009, 12:32 PM
Will has "CF for Life" tattooed on his back.......

Dont let him fool you.

WillNoble
04-22-2009, 12:58 PM
Will has "CF for Life" tattooed on his back.......

Dont let him fool you.

what? Cocaine and F***ing?

Reko
04-22-2009, 01:52 PM
Copenhagen and F***ing

Fixed

AJL11
04-22-2009, 03:23 PM
either one would make a GREAT tattoo!

KingJustin
04-22-2009, 05:09 PM
I realize that things can be "scaled", but 225 is NOT heavy. I haven't been following the football programming, but over the past week, that's the heaviest poundage used (and it was for cleans).

I think you're reading the program wrong. Yeah, that is the rep work I was talking about. But look on the right side of the page for the strength work.

KingJustin
04-22-2009, 05:28 PM
they do little to address any weaknesses not covered by main exercises

Are you saying that there's muscle imbalances and underdeveloped areas? If so, could you explain a bit? I have had very few injuries since I've been doing CrossFit, and I'm pretty injury-prone...



their is very little thought (if any, to the progression of exercises or weights)

Well, yeah, they program it so that you're always working at maximal intensity. i.e. you won't be doing a lot of 3x3 cleans @ 70%. The reason for this is that if you're going to improve all-around strength (in every exercise), along with speed, power, cardio, and endurance, then you are going to have to keep intensity high and get the most efficient workout in.
And as far as not following progressive overload principles, well yeah. But progressive overload isn't the only way to make strength gains... You hit the various movements enough to make steady gains. It's basically undulated (or whatever) periodization.



Also within this crap is the conditioning. Now I will admit crossfit has advantages in the conditioning realm but for football this is true ret@rdation, the ONLY point at which crossfit would have any applicability is during winter conditioning, but even then the amount and the structure of the conditioning is poor for football players because again
They have it set up so that in-season training is going to be different from off-season (during in-season, they are going to have alternate WODs and strength work).
CF Football has a significant amount of running in it (a lot more than normal CF), and almost all is 40-100m. That said, Football is more than running. And you are going to have to use your whole body just about every play. I don't see why you wouldn't use your whole body in conditioning.

And, again, the conditioning workouts add strength, too. The typical weights are 135lb thrusters, 225+ squats (bodyweight on the bar for the bigger guys), 135 push press, 315 deadlifts, and you're doing about 40-50 over the course of the workout. Yeah, that's probably a bit lower than what you would use for 5x8 or whatever, but (a) if you're that strong you can scale up, and (b) when your body is craving oxygen and you're working with over 50% of your max for a lot of reps, you can see noticeable strength jumps.

WillNoble
04-22-2009, 06:53 PM
Are you saying that there's muscle imbalances and underdeveloped areas? If so, could you explain a bit? I have had very few injuries since I've been doing CrossFit, and I'm pretty injury-prone...

Absolutely, I think it does little to develop the real needs and weaknesses of football players. Understanding that there will always be imbalances, this program relies more on compound circuit training than individually addressing the needs of an individual... In essence it lacks real substance







Well, yeah, they program it so that you're always working at maximal intensity. i.e. you won't be doing a lot of 3x3 cleans @ 70%. The reason for this is that if you're going to improve all-around strength (in every exercise), along with speed, power, cardio, and endurance, then you are going to have to keep intensity high and get the most efficient workout in.
And as far as not following progressive overload principles, well yeah. But progressive overload isn't the only way to make strength gains... You hit the various movements enough to make steady gains. It's basically undulated (or whatever) periodization.


I love when they use that term "Undulated" periodization, what they're basically doing is ripping of much off the work popularized by Mike Mentzer in the 80's and 90's, HIT training does work in short bursts but over extended periods of time (say winter/spring) you are going to see nothing but diminished returns.

I am not advocating western style linear periodization and the block style progressive overload principles it espouses. Conjugate periodization, originally developed in the Soviet Block and popularized by Zatsiorsky, Siff, Medvedyev, Simmons, et. al. Addresses more of the individualistic needs of the players especially at a developmental stage such as high school where hip weakness is a given and hamstrings and low backs have received little real work resulting in consistent injury. In speaking on Simmons thru his work in powerlifting and the popularization of Dynamic methods and accommodating resistance there has been a great shift in the building of athletes into much more stronger and explosive athletes, with far less imbalances than some new form of a Nautilus circuit (albeit with free weights) can ever do.

You give me 2 football teams, one trained with your crossfit principles and the other trained in a conjugate manner with sports specific field training and GPP/SPP work and I will show you a much Bigger, Stronger, Faster, and More explosive team.

Much of what Ive been saying is being proven as we speak by one Mr. Joe Defranco. Many on here will call me a nutswinger, and maybe I am, but the man has successfully blended football specifics and conjugate (read: westside style) training, and is producing monsters for the NFL.




They have it set up so that in-season training is going to be different from off-season (during in-season, they are going to have alternate WODs and strength work).
CF Football has a significant amount of running in it (a lot more than normal CF), and almost all is 40-100m. That said, Football is more than running. And you are going to have to use your whole body just about every play. I don't see why you wouldn't use your whole body in conditioning.

Your bold point is absolutely correct, but please explain to me at what point myself, Joe Defranco, or Lou have said that you shouldnt utilize your whole body for GPP? I'll explain this point more below.



And, again, the conditioning workouts add strength, too. The typical weights are 135lb thrusters, 225+ squats (bodyweight on the bar for the bigger guys), 135 push press, 315 deadlifts, and you're doing about 40-50 over the course of the workout. Yeah, that's probably a bit lower than what you would use for 5x8 or whatever, but (a) if you're that strong you can scale up, and (b) when your body is craving oxygen and you're working with over 50% of your max for a lot of reps, you can see noticeable strength jumps.

Here is where I will make my final points...

First of all please explain to me how you can consider thrusters and a mere 225lb. squat to be conditioning for football? There is no sport relevance, there is no applicability...

Sports specific conditioning comes from (drumroll please) sports specific movements...

Pushing a prowler, Flipping A tire, Pushing a truck, Dragging a sled (walking, sprinting or running), Box Jumps, Bag Drills, Pushing a team sled...those are sports specific drills, and I dont care how many thrusters or 225 squats for time you do, you are not going to replicate that form of SPP development.

Again, I am not advocating 5x8 or 5x5 or Bill Starr or Rip or any of that other. Conjugate periodization is at the top right now because it develops the strongest and most explosive lifters on the planet, you find any top level lifter and they in some way shape or form have had influence put on them from utilizing westside methods. Couple with that the FOOTBALL SPECIFIC work that is necessary for building football players and you have a program to develop champions, Louie is doing it and Joe Defranco is making a killing doing it.

Crossfit is not optimal, and just like HIT, just like Bill Starrs work, and just like many others that are out there, but will always be advocated by uninformed individuals

Travis Bell
04-22-2009, 07:10 PM
Excellent post Will. I could not agree more.

I'm really glad I read through this as I was just having this very discussion with a football coach who was desiring of understanding why I have my players do what I do. Great stuff.

KoSh
04-22-2009, 08:04 PM
I'm definitely onboard with the Westside method. It's great. Like I said, we have only done two days of it with the kids (I've done it previously) and they love it. They absolutely enjoyed doing Bulgarian Split Squats, it puts a whole new spin on training for them and they busted their asses today. I was so damned proud of those guys today.

They can't wait to get back into the weight room on Friday. And to me... That means I'm doing my job because I found something that they freakin' love.

KingJustin
04-22-2009, 08:04 PM
Will - I don't disagree with DeFranco's training at all. I think very highly of the dude. I also think WSB/Conjugate Training is excellent for developing strength and power.
The point we disagree on, is that I think that the programming on crossfitfootball is very effective for developing the strength/conditioning/explosiveness needed for football. You do not.


Absolutely, I think it does little to develop the real needs and weaknesses of football players. Understanding that there will always be imbalances, this program relies more on compound circuit training than individually addressing the needs of an individual.
This is a pretty legit point that I will give you. I know that I had to add hack squats and RDLs to address a couple weak points of mine. But, John Welbourn has also stated numerous times that athletes will need to add some work for imbalances on their own.
But, overall, the training is set up in such a way that there are not going to be many imbalances anyway.
And, it's not like programs that give a prescribed workout for a large number of people haven't had mass success.
A huge number of the top Oly lifters use mikesgym.com or cathletics.com (including one of my training partners, who finished 1st @ collegiate nationals).



I love when they use that term "Undulated" periodization, what they're basically doing is ripping of much off the work popularized by Mike Mentzer in the 80's and 90's
Huh? The rep schemes are going to vary and it's not linear. You might be doing 3-3-3-3-3 and then 3x3 and then a max or 5 singles for the strength work for a given exercise.
But, overall, the workout regime _IS_ conjugated. I'm not sure whether you've looked closely at the actual programming or not (the football program only has about a month of viewable workouts ... and perhaps understanding the daily workout isn't as intuitive as I thought -- it has 2 parts), but every week you are doing 1-5 reps (i.e. ME or very heavy strength work) in about 7 exercises. And then, you are getting your rep work while doing cardio. There's also DE work for the advanced guys. CrossFit recognizes that WSB conjugate training is very effective. They hired Dave Tate to work with them and they've definitely bought into conjugate training.



First of all please explain to me how you can consider thrusters and a mere 225lb. squat to be conditioning for football? There is no sport relevance, there is no applicability...
Well, Anthony can attest to this, too, but when trained MMA/BJJ, I was using CF for my conditioning, and I basically never got tired, even though I didn't do the actual movements.
That said, CFF realizes that you're going to do SPP on top of the work. The goal is to give the workouts that the strength & conditioning coach would give, and then let the football coach do his own thing. I can guarantee you that conditioning will NOT be a problem for anyone doing CFF. Additionally, overuse injuries will not be a problem because your conditioning isn't going to lead to muscle imbalances.

In regard to the Prowler and Sled -- I actually don't know wtf they don't incorporate these into normal CrossFit, since they're both excellent tools. This has actually bothered my for awhile, so your post gave me an incentive to get a response:
http://www.crossfitfootball.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72
Feel free to add your own commentary. It takes 2 seconds to sign up over there.

Travis Bell
04-22-2009, 08:15 PM
Honestly, I think it's going to be one opinion vs. another until someone actually does crossfit with a football team or at least a group of players

I think crossfit has it's place, but that place is just not in football.

In football your conditioning should come from the exercises that Will listed, prowler, tire flips, sled dragging etc etc.

Your weight training should be helping you build strength mass and speed.

Now if the debate were, can crossfit work? I would agree it could but is it the best? I would say no

Excellent discussion though.

Reko
04-22-2009, 08:15 PM
That said, CFF realizes that you're going to do SPP on top of the work. The goal is to give the workouts that the strength & conditioning coach would give,and then let the football coach do his own thing. I can guarantee you that conditioning will NOT be a problem for anyone doing CFF. Additionally, overuse injuries will not be a problem because your conditioning isn't going to lead to muscle imbalances.


If you are just looking at the strength aspect of it, why not utilize something more geared specifically towards strength?

I never played football so I don't know about the other points.

Travis Bell
04-22-2009, 08:20 PM
The football coach doesn't want to nor should be be worrying about the strength issue (this is in response to KJ)

His job is plays, technique on the field, leadership, picking out best ways to make his players specific talents work towards a W etc.

This is why they have a strength and conditioning coach.

When you compare the strength that a person gains when doing a WSB (for a simple title at least) set up, to the strength gains you would get off of crossfit, I really think it's not even close.

The conditioning level can be achieved in tandem with these strength gains through GPP and SPP work

KingJustin
04-22-2009, 08:24 PM
Travis - Just to be clear, the programming for CrossFit Football (http://www.crossfitfootball.com) is significantly different (and more demanding) than the programming for CrossFit (http://www.crossfit.com).

And the SPP work - i.e. cone drills, gassers sled pushes, etc. was always done, at least when I was in high school, by the football coach. At Emory, we've only got a D3 program, but the SSP work is also mostly done by the individual coaches.
The programming does have stuff like box jumps (today's WOD includes burpee-box-jumps) and sprints and stuff (and maybe in-season will have more SSP work -- I could be wrong), but I assumed if you want to build more specific football skills, you'd do that on your own.

The reason I think CFF is effective is because (a) it does use conjugate training -- both ME and DE, and (b) it basically just does the rep work ("repetition method") in the conditioning workouts.

You can only do so much each week without overtraining. This is a way to fit it all in. Nobody on CFF is saying you shouldn't do SPP (and actually Welbourn has made it clear that you have to). That is just a separate part that is not covered by the site.

One more thing -- You can follow a lot of the athletes and coaches on the comments part of the CFF main site. People post with their real (usually full) name. Come back in 3 months and look and see if they made progress.

KoSh
04-22-2009, 08:30 PM
The football coach doesn't want to nor should be be worrying about the strength issue (this is in response to KJ)

His job is plays, technique on the field, leadership, picking out best ways to make his players specific talents work towards a W etc.

This is why they have a strength and conditioning coach.


Unfortunately, most high schools don't get a strength and conditioning coach and an entire football staff.

I do both.

It's tough work to do both. But I pride myself in trying to figure out the best way to do things both on and off the field. But the strength issue is very much our concern.

WillNoble
04-22-2009, 08:45 PM
Honestly, I think it's going to be one opinion vs. another until someone actually does crossfit with a football team or at least a group of players

I think crossfit has it's place, but that place is just not in football.

In football your conditioning should come from the exercises that Will listed, prowler, tire flips, sled dragging etc etc.

Your weight training should be helping you build strength mass and speed.

Now if the debate were, can crossfit work? I would agree it could but is it the best? I would say no

Excellent discussion though.



these are the exact points Im making... Cross fit does have merits don't get me wrong, but the ROI on the time investment for both the players and the coaches is minimal at best.

At its core crossfit is a centralized training method revolving around complex (sometimes not) circuit training.

Again, will it work? Sure any form of regimented training will have some effect, but will the training be optimal, most assuredly not.

As Travis stated this is an opinionated issue, I have mine, he has his, yall have yours. Only with ours, the proof is in the kool-aid, when you look at the sheer number of athletes churned out by both westside and defranco's, and neither of them are using "cultfit" as its basis.

I will offer some points though:


You can only do so much each week without overtraining. This is a way to fit it all in. Nobody on CFF is saying you shouldn't do SPP (and actually Welbourn has made it clear that you have to). That is just a separate part that is not covered by the site.

Then how can you say it is a complete program if its not even all being covered?




I can guarantee you that conditioning will NOT be a problem for anyone doing CFF. Additionally, overuse injuries will not be a problem because your conditioning isn't going to lead to muscle imbalances.


They may not be an issue, but the issue still remains, this is football you need strength, speed, size, and power... Being able to do burpee's for hours on end is doing nothing for your football game, except lessen your force producing capability.






One more thing -- You can follow a lot of the athletes and coaches on the comments part of the CFF main site. People post with their real (usually full) name. Come back in 3 months and look and see if they made progress.

You can do the same thing on Defranco's...Only instead of checking progress in 3 months, just watch the NFL draft on Saturday and see how many of his projects become millionaires in two days...

KingJustin
04-22-2009, 08:50 PM
They may not be an issue, but the issue still remains, this is football you need strength, speed, size, and power... Being able to do burpee's for hours on end is doing nothing for your football game, except lessen your force producing capability.
Again, there is a big difference between CFF programming and the main site. Most of the CFF workouts are geared to quarter-length (15m) and involve heavier weight and less muscle endurance.


You can do the same thing on Defranco's...Only instead of checking progress in 3 months, just watch the NFL draft on Saturday and see how many of his projects become millionaires in two days...
Again, I think DeFranco is great. CFF has been around for a month now.

But, there's a ton of MMA professionals that do CrossFit, and there's a lot of professionals in a bunch of other sports. The Carolina hurricanes, for example, all train up at Crossfit NC (where I'm from, sorta). A bunch of collegiate rugby players (and a couple pro's) train at CrossFit Atlanta (where I live now).

WillNoble
04-22-2009, 08:53 PM
But, there's a ton of MMA professionals that do CrossFit, and there's a lot of professionals in a bunch of other sports. The Carolina hurricanes, for example, all train up at Crossfit NC (where I'm from, sorta). A bunch of collegiate rugby players (and a couple pro's) train at CrossFit Atlanta (where I live now).

None of whom have anything to do with playing football at a high level

WillNoble
04-22-2009, 08:53 PM
Travis, which NFL teams is Louie the strength consultant for (or was)? I seem to remember it being several

KingJustin
04-22-2009, 09:17 PM
None of whom have anything to do with playing football at a high level

CFF has been around publicly for one month. It is not possible for it to have a mass following in the NFL.
(And there might be some NFL athletes that train under CF already, I really don't know because they don't always make the point of publicizing it -- I only know who trains in the gyms I have been to)

My point was that (a lot of) elite athletes have been following CF with success. CF realized that to reach the football market, they would have to tailor their training a lot more toward strength. They did this by creating CFF, which uses the same proven CF concepts but makes the program more strength-based.

And I don't doubt that Louie has had tremendous success. As I've said several times already, I think very highly of Louie and of conjugate periodization. CF realized the success of WSB and "contracted" for Dave Tate.

Travis Bell
04-22-2009, 09:24 PM
Travis, which NFL teams is Louie the strength consultant for (or was)? I seem to remember it being several

NY Jets, Cleveland Browns, Green Bay Packers and two other teams that are not comming to mind at the moment

Travis Bell
04-22-2009, 09:29 PM
My point was that (a lot of) elite athletes have been following CF with success. CF realized that to reach the football market, they would have to tailor their training a lot more toward strength. They did this by creating CFF, which uses the same proven CF concepts but makes the program more strength-based.

Again, you're looking a little more broad. I could see crossfit working well for MMA. Mass and strength aren't as big of factors needed as endurance, conditioning and technique


And I don't doubt that Louie has had tremendous success. As I've said several times already, I think very highly of Louie and of conjugate periodization. CF realized the success of WSB and "contracted" for Dave Tate.

CF should have contacted Lou himself if they wanted WSB input, not Dave Tate

I realize you do in fact see the legitimacy of what Lou is doing, Im just saying in my honest opinion, since we're talking about football specifically, the WSB template is better than crossfit.

My question would be if CF realized the success of WSB, why not just do that program? Similar to how Joe Defranco did. I understand the desire to put their own spin on it and be new and fancy, but in the strength and conditioning world, ESPECIALLY in football, new lasts for about 6mths. After that, if you don't produce results you're done. However if you produce results that are head and shoulders above the rest, you're in the money.

joey54
04-22-2009, 09:37 PM
I was going to add something, but Will pretty much said anything I would have said already. Good thread to read so far.

KingJustin
04-22-2009, 09:55 PM
CF should have contacted Lou himself if they wanted WSB input, not Dave Tate
Is there some internal politics that I'm unaware of?
(And it's possible that CF does work with Louie - I really don't know; you probably do; but I do know that Dave Tate is definitely working with CF).
(Additionally, almost all the Oly lifting coaches work with CF)

As far as why not just use the WSB format verbatim -- they clearly think they have made some enhancements to what WSB has to offer. I would basically consider the program a hybrid between WSB for powerlifters and typical CrossFit, with a bit more focus on the movements that are important to football players, and with some added Oly lifting.

Anyway, I think you should at least let John Welbourn defend his programming, since I am only giving my interpretation based on 1 month of what is publicly available (and I believe this was used for a couple years with various athletes before they made it public). John is very quick to respond to posts up there. I'm sure a discussion between you guys and him would be interesting. It takes all of 5 seconds to sign up and ask "What advantages does this program have over DeFranco's training?"

Travis Bell
04-22-2009, 10:13 PM
Internal politics? What are you talking about? Dave and Louie have an excellent relationship even since Dave's departure from Westside some time ago. To imply otherwise is silly.

My point was Lou is the one who made the program, has trained the football players and consulted with the NFL teams, so why go anywhere else when Louie is just as accessible? It makes no sense is all.

I'm glad that they are working with a lot of Oly lifters. Once again though, we're talking about football, not Oly lifting.

I have no interest in going to John's site and asking him about it honestly. Not that I have anything at all against him or his program, but I know CrossFit well enough to know that I don't feel it's beneficial. You have really done a great job of explaining things and I would certainly say you know the program well. There honestly isn't anything that he could tell me that would convince me that his program is better than WSB training. At the end of the day the results are there from the WSB training. I do give anyone credit who is willing to put themselves out there and try to improve the strength and conditioning community, regardless of my opinion of their methodologies. I wish him the very best.

WillNoble
04-22-2009, 11:18 PM
wow I step away to go train and Travis politely ends the debate....damn

Anyway, I'll be the first to give CF credit for general GPP/Conditioning, but for specialized athletics it really just isnt all there. It has however spurred some good debate and conversation... This is #2 for Travis and I on this topic, maybe we should write an article, LOL

Reko
04-23-2009, 06:30 AM
Anyway, I'll be the first to give CF credit for general GPP/Conditioning, but for specialized athletics it really just isnt all there. It has however spurred some good debate and conversation... This is #2 for Travis and I on this topic, maybe we should write an article, LOL

I wouldn't mind that. Esp. if it was something like science and practice but in simple.wiki format haha

Sensei
04-23-2009, 08:56 AM
King,

As with any "program" (CF or otherwise), it's going to need to be tailored to individual athlete's needs and a program's facilities - these points have already been made.

The definition of what is and what is not "CrossFit" has become blurry and, like it or not, CF didn't invent GPP, conditioning, or circuit training. I feel compelled to keep saying that I am a fan of CF, just not for EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. You've presented nothing different from anyone else I've ever asked about periodization with regards to CF.


I think you're reading the program wrong. Yeah, that is the rep work I was talking about. But look on the right side of the page for the strength work.I was reading it incorrectly and thank you for showing me that. However, clicking on the right hand side of the page to reveal an additional session of "100 ring dips" didn't do much to change my mind on my original assessment.

KingJustin
04-23-2009, 09:16 AM
I was reading it incorrectly and thank you for showing me that. However, clicking on the right hand side of the page to reveal an additional session of "100 ring dips" didn't do much to change my mind on my original assessment.

Hahaha, yeah that was not-so-great timing.
To be fair, the rest of the week was:
Deadlift 15x1 @65%1rm, Squat5rm, Bench5rm, max height bunch jumps, snatch 8x2, bench 225xmax-reps


And I don't think CF has produced anything new. They've basically packaged everything together into what I think is an effective program. Others have done similar programs in the past. CFF basically involves ME work, DE work, some 5x5 type stuff, some plyos/speed work, and then the metcons for the rep work. All of this stuff has been proven to be effective at building strength/conditioning/explosiveness. The only real argument against this that I see is the proportions of each type of work (apparently the thought is there is too much rep work and not enough strength work -- which I disagree with).

And, honestly, I can't think of any athlete that would not benefit from some degree of CF methods. I would say the same thing about WSB methods (I don't think Will/Travis realize that I even though I'm not at all on their level with strength, I trained both WS4SB & traditional WSB for a couple years). The thing is that an endurance runner is going to have a lot different proportions than an Olympic Lifter or football player. But, everyone can benefit from strength work and conditioning.
I can agree that the line is blurry on what is and what is not CF. For this thread I was mostly arguing that CFF programming is very good, so I don't think that came into play -- you can see the very specific program yourself. But, I would describe CF as:
(1) Doing functional, compound movements in the 1-5 rep range purely for strength (or explosiveness)
(2) Doing rep work in a circuit fashion at a high cardiovascular intensity (and sticking with compound movements)
(3) Adding in speed and endurance work as necessary
I think that is a bit more specific than what most people would give, while still being accurate, and I think using all 3 of these methods, in various proportions, is key for any athlete.


As far as tailoring to individual athletes -- AFAIK, a lot of strength/conditioning coaches have their whole team do the same general work, and then add some specifics for each athlete. Same deal with all my Oly lifting buddies that use Mike's Gym or CAthletics.. they add a bit of work for their weak points. CF understands that.
That said, if you follow the WODs as prescribed, you're not going to have any real muscle imbalances, and your weak points are going to start catching up.
CFF takes the extra step of separating people into 3 classes. It realizes that beginners can progress faster. So, more linear work with fewer exercises.
The intermediate group gets a bit more exercises and moves in less of a linear fashion, and the advanced group adds a little more, gets a little more DE work and a little more plyos, and advances in a completely non-linear fashion.

John's response to my question on using the Prowler was basically that he does use it, for people at his gym. I think he realizes that most CF gyms for whatever reason don't have them (which I think is stupid, because a lot of them already have a bunch of tires and other strongman stuff), so he wants to stick to equipment most people have.

Travis Bell
04-23-2009, 10:22 AM
I would say the same thing about WSB methods (I don't think Will/Travis realize that I even though I'm not at all on their level with strength, I trained both WS4SB & traditional WSB for a couple years).
This is great! But the truth is, simply training the template doesn't translate to understanding it all the time.

Will knows what he's talking about because he played college ball and has done a fair amount of reading on the subject. He and I have discussed it quite in depth in the past.

I have trained at Westside for around 5 years now under Lou and have worked closely with him as he trains athletes at the gym.



(1) Doing functional, compound movements in the 1-5 rep range purely for strength (or explosiveness)
(2) Doing rep work in a circuit fashion at a high cardiovascular intensity (and sticking with compound movements)
(3) Adding in speed and endurance work as necessary
I think that is a bit more specific than what most people would give, while still being accurate, and I think using all 3 of these methods, in various proportions, is key for any athlete.

Are you using the words strength and explosivness interchangeably or as two seperate terms?

Reason being, if you are using them interchangeably, that will lead others to confusion. You train strength differently than you should train explosiveness.



As far as tailoring to individual athletes -- AFAIK, a lot of strength/conditioning coaches have their whole team do the same general work, and then add some specifics for each athlete.

You must have interacted with some different colleges than I have because most of them just hand out a schedule based upon percentages and expect the athlete themselves to do the work. Specificity based upon an individual athletes weakness is not worked upon. This comes from discussing this with athletes from Michigan State, Ohio State, Texas University etc etc.



That said, if you follow the WODs as prescribed, you're not going to have any real muscle imbalances, and your weak points are going to start catching up.

How are your weak points going to catch up exactly?


CFF takes the extra step of separating people into 3 classes. It realizes that beginners can progress faster. So, more linear work with fewer exercises.
The intermediate group gets a bit more exercises and moves in less of a linear fashion, and the advanced group adds a little more, gets a little more DE work and a little more plyos, and advances in a completely non-linear fashion.

John's response to my question on using the Prowler was basically that he does use it, for people at his gym. I think he realizes that most CF gyms for whatever reason don't have them (which I think is stupid, because a lot of them already have a bunch of tires and other strongman stuff), so he wants to stick to equipment most people have.

Prowlers are crazy cheap. Especially if you have a friend that welds or can get it fabricated at a shop. Really not complicated.

KingJustin
04-23-2009, 10:36 AM
Are you using the words strength and explosivness interchangeably or as two seperate terms?
Different. Different training. ME vs DE (which is why CFF uses stuff like 15x1 @ 65% for building power. (obviously you know how this works since it's a direct take from WSB)


How are your weak points going to catch up exactly?
Well, again, I think that (especially for an advanced athlete) training weakpoints is very important -- and, again, CF recognizes this, and everyone at a high level in CF alters their training.
The people that don't alter their training are usually beginners, or people that have no idea wtf they are doing.
If you're a beginner, your weak points catch up pretty quick. If you just don't know what you're doing, you probably have just undertrained a movement/muscle group. At a CF gym, you're likely to get weak point help. If you're training just off the main site, then you're going to start finally hitting those areas that you missed, and weak points progress quickly, whereas your strong points improve slower. So you catch up.



This is great! But the truth is, simply training the template doesn't translate to understanding it all the time.
Fair enough. I'm just saying, I'm not merely paying lip service to WSB. I am a big fan and I understand its effectiveness. But, I don't think the two systems are that different -- CF uses a lot of the same tools as WSB, but in different proportions.

Travis Bell
04-23-2009, 10:40 AM
One set of 15 reps at 65%?

Where is that from Westside?

Westside uses the DE work (usually 50%-65%, although sometimes less depending on the athlete's form and current speed) to develop explosivness and the ME work to develop strength and power

Westside DE work is 8-9 sets of 3 reps, not one set of 15

KingJustin
04-23-2009, 10:41 AM
One set of 15 reps at 65%?

Where is that from Westside?

Westside uses the DE work (usually 50%-65%, although sometimes less depending on the athlete's form and current speed) to develop explosivness and the ME work to develop strength and power

Westside DE work is 8-9 sets of 3 reps, not one set of 15

15 sets of 1 rep for deadlift is what I meant by 15x1 (30 seconds rest & 65% 1rm was what was prescribed)
(and they use 8x2 -- 8 sets of 2 reps -- on squat; and 8x3 on bench)

15-24 reps total, with a weight that you can move with maximal power, broken up into however many reps that you can keep that power, right?

WillNoble
04-23-2009, 11:19 AM
15 sets of 1 rep for deadlift is what I meant by 15x1 (30 seconds rest & 65% 1rm was what was prescribed)

Thats still not westside... Thats the point Travis is making

Brad08
04-23-2009, 11:26 AM
And I don't think CF has produced anything new.

Don't let Glassman here you talking like that or you'll be tossed right out of the commune, er, community. According to the gin-swilling "I'd like to workout but can't b/c I fell off the gymnastic rings in 1978" Glassman, he invented everything from pullups to 5ks to sumo high pulls. His genius pulled it all together and created the perfect system (which you can learn at $1000 a pop weekend certification in everything from weight training to backwards ass wiping).

And just in general...LMFAO at the whole concept of Crossfit FOOTBALL. Crossfit was built on the stupid slogan, "Specialization is for insects!" But now they're "specializing" in training for a specialized sport with a vast number of sport-specific skill components. And they're trying to do it by repping out on 225 deadlifts, some box jumps, and pullups for time. LOL

Improving your GPP can't hurt but let's not pretend that NFL players would instantly improve AT FOOTBALL by deadlifting 225 for reps in 3 minutes or by completing 100 kipping pullups in 30 seconds (if your rotator cuffs survive). It's ridiculous and an attempt to paint eveyrone with an overly-broad, untested, universal brush.

As for CFF efficacy, it was unveiled a month ago yet I've already read claims of superiority, which is par for the course with Crossfit. It's a marketing scheme targeting the wannabe hardcore and the exercise-clueless. Nothing more.


And, honestly, I can't think of any athlete that would not benefit from some degree of CF methods.

This is due to a lack of experience and critical analysis on your part.

I saw earlier a reference to elite athletes using crossfit with great success. I challenge you to find ONE elite athlete that Crossfit has PRODUCED. Not simply "taken credit for." I'm talking, that Crossift BUILT from teh ground up into an ELITE athlete. They can't be found. Because Crossfit does not build them. What Crossfit DOES, however, is trot out a few elite athletes that have INCLUDED crossfit in their training or who are now paid spokespeople for Crossfit. There are beasts that do Crossift, but they were Beasts BEFORE Crossfit. They were not CREATED by Crossfit. That's a very important distinction.

Brad08
04-23-2009, 11:32 AM
As to the no-injury BS that Crossfit likes to claim, I saw someone post this on another forum. It was pulled from ONE DAY's worth of comments from Crossfit's "workout of the day" comment section. ONE DAY. This isn't exactly what you want your football squad feeling like after using your training program.


Does anyone have any remedy at all for shoulder joint pain? It hurts primarily when jerking weight, i.e. push press, C+J, jerk, thruster and even slighlty on pullups at a DH.
It's been bothering me for almost 3 weeks now

Quote:
good workout except the inverted burpee hurt my back and I thought they were stupid, not all good ideas have to be executed, I put the inverted burpee into the same category as the "simulated shoveling," it strained my back as well but I did them in the spirit of drinking the crossfit kool aide.

Quote:
The full body intensity moving quickly from one movement to the other, coupled with a freshly hurt hip flexor meant this workout was a killer!
Pullups were definately the easy part. Rolling forward to your feet or kipping with an injured hip is cause for some pain.
I'll try to be smarter next time but its so hard to say no to the drug that is CrossFit!

Quote:
Tore my MCL and partial tear of my ACL and still attempted this WOD one legged

Quote:
Last round on my 13th pull-up I pullled my calf muscle, it was horrible. I can't remember the last time I pulled something and it hurt so bad.

Quote:
PS - my low back now hurts

Quote:
RAN 5K JUST BEFORE 21:30 NECK HURT QUIT EARLY.

Quote:
I'm nursing a rib injury at the moment

Quote:
i've got shin splints in both shins, and my left leg feels like a slight stress fracture or something....pain shooting from my heel to my knee

Quote:
I've been going through the same thing with my shoulders. The pain built up over about three weeks until I had to take a week off

Quote:
I tweaked my rotator cuff a couple months ago (probably from not being properly warmed up) which resulted in lingering shoulder pain

Quote:
R-toe injury made the regular burpees a little more painful.

Quote:
tweaked shoulder during Lynne

Quote:
pulled back muscle (from not warming up enough before the heavy power cleans), the shoulder, strained elbow tendon

Quote:
oh god, that was more than enough fun. THREE hand rips.

Quote:
I decided not to do the CF wod, on account of lower body issues(bruised shin, and sore heel and knee on other leg

Quote:
Jacked up neck muscles, skipped the wod.

Quote:
used alot of my left leg on the inverted burpees... still healing the right high-ham

Quote:
Smashed my ankle against my rings kicking up into a handstand

Quote:
started feeling a bad pinch in my back from the 150 cleans yesterday

=Travis=
04-23-2009, 12:06 PM
"Last round on my 13th pull-up I pullled my calf muscle, it was horrible. I can't remember the last time I pulled something and it hurt so bad. "

Okay, this right here shows the true power behind crossfit, pulling a calf during pull ups is some sick power.

Brad08
04-23-2009, 12:10 PM
Okay, this right here shows the true power behind crossfit, pulling a calf during pull ups is some sick power.

Just imagine the footballers this program will produce!


...

This is about giving bored, middle-aged wannabes/neverweres something semi-dangerous to do to feel "elite" without having to resort to primordial pugilistic violence with their office mates a la Fight Club.

Feel alive, but don't get punched in the face. Win win!

AJL11
04-23-2009, 01:58 PM
The football coach doesn't want to nor should be be worrying about the strength issue (this is in response to KJ)

His job is plays, technique on the field, leadership, picking out best ways to make his players specific talents work towards a W etc.

This is why they have a strength and conditioning coach.

This unfortunately can be very untrue......There are a lot of coaches out there that do not let the S&C coach run the program without any interference from the sport staff. Looking back I only had one or two coaches that said "you are the strength coach, I will never come down and ask you what you think we should do different on the court, so you will never hear me quesion you about strength and conditioning" If only every coach would have that mentality, S&C coaching would run a lot smoother.

I have a good friend that recently took over as the head S&C coach at high level DII school, and he went in there and changed everything (which needed to happen). The previous S&C coach had these kids #s sky high, but neglected many aspects of training (proper technique, posterior chain strength, proper programming, etc...) so my buddy had to take a few steps back and start from scratch...Long story short, some of the #s were down during spring testing, and the FB staff flipped a gasket. My buddy had a 1 on 1 meeting with the head FB coach, and then pretty much had a sit down open Q and A in front of the whole staff. My buddy loved it, because they were firing away questions, pretty much ganging up on him, demanding him explain why a few of the #s were down. The funniest point the FB staff failed to realize was that every player except for like 2 were able to fully participate in Spring Practice vs the previous yr, where there were 15-20+ kids out from injuries...

Many sport coaches interfere with the S&C staff. It is a pain in the a$$ to sit down and try to explain your methodolgy to coaches who have no clue, but sometimes you have to plea your case to save your job.

KingJustin
04-23-2009, 02:07 PM
I saw earlier a reference to elite athletes using crossfit with great success. I challenge you to find ONE elite athlete that Crossfit has PRODUCED. Not simply "taken credit for."
As far as athletes in professional sports -- There's so many fighters that use CrossFit. I'm sure several of them moved up the ranks because of it. I honestly have no idea, though. I know who trains at the gyms I've been to. Next time I make it down to CFATL I'll ask one of the guys that does more traveling. I know for certain, though, that a large # of professional athletes train CF...
As far as taking guys from the ground up -- there's a group of probably 40+ guys that have can hit 300 C&J, 500 DL, 5min mile, and 40 consecutive pull-ups (and lots of etc's that are on par with that; including being able to do heavy weights & high reps of body weight & running etc together in a cardio workout very quickly, which I haven't seen any completely non-CrossFit athlete do at the same level) all training through CF.

Sensei
04-23-2009, 02:12 PM
This unfortunately can be very untrue......There are a lot of coaches out there that do not let the S&C coach run the program without any interference from the sport staff. Looking back I only had one or two coaches that said "you are the strength coach, I will never come down and ask you what you think we should do different on the court, so you will never hear me quesion you about strength and conditioning" If only every coach would have that mentality, S&C coaching would run a lot smoother.
I worked with both kinds and neither one is good... It's nice to be given free reign, but often that comes with ZERO communication and coordination. Being afraid to really push the kids because it might (short-term) negatively impact their performance and you know that won't be tolerated is a bad place to be in. I've had to walk away from jobs because some coaches can't look past the next game day.

WillNoble
04-23-2009, 02:54 PM
As far as taking guys from the ground up -- there's a group of probably 40+ guys that have can hit 300 C&J, 500 DL, 5min mile, and 40 consecutive pull-ups (and lots of etc's that are on par with that; including being able to do heavy weights & high reps of body weight & running etc together in a cardio workout very quickly, which I haven't seen any completely non-CrossFit athlete do at the same level) all training through CF.


but going back to the original point, none of those things matter for football...

Sure they are nice to say you have, but football coaches are interested in building football players...not CF

I will continue to reiterate the initial point, crossfit is in no way optimal for football

AJL11
04-23-2009, 03:24 PM
I worked with both kinds and neither one is good... It's nice to be given free reign, but often that comes with ZERO communication and coordination.


Very true.....

KingJustin
04-23-2009, 03:26 PM
but going back to the original point, none of those things matter for football...

Sure they are nice to say you have, but football coaches are interested in building football players...not CF

I will continue to reiterate the initial point, crossfit is in no way optimal for football

I was responding to the post that CF hasn't turned anyone into a good athlete. The fact is that there are a lot of well-rounded people because of the CF training -- not to say it's all that unique, but the methods are effective. And CF can change the proportionality of these guys and drop their mile times to around 4 minutes at the expense of strength, or vice versa...

Let's be clear: CrossFit changes the proportions for everything. If they are (theoretically) working with powerlifters, they'd be doing a lot more strength work.
A CrossFit football program and a WSB program for football could look very similar (CFF thinks that conditioning is more important that Joe DeFranco does I guess, and has more conditioning and less strength ... but it's not waay different).

A CF program could include, each week,
(a) ME squats or deadlifts, ME bench, DE squats & DE bench, some heavy cleans/snatches, and 6x4, 5x5 (etc) work in another ten lifts,
(b) a couple conditioning works like "Quarter Gone Bad" (burpees, +50lb Pull-ups, 135 thrusters) and 135lb complexes (while rotating in new stuff each week)
(c)SSP - box jumps, sprints, downhill running, prowler pushes, agility drills, etc.
I fail to see how this is that much different from WSB. Why would this program, or something very similar to it, not work for Football, whereas Joe DeFranco's training will? The only real difference is that WSB will add a few sets each week in the 8-10 rep range. CF changes that and puts it into the conditioning work.

You can knock the CFF programming as being proportioned in a way you think is wrong (although I don't think any of you, beside Sensei, have read over the workouts), but it's not like the methods do not fit with Football if you proportion it the way that you think is right. In the same respect, conjugate periodization can work with endurance runners if you proportion the training right.
And it's not like WSB thinks the conditioning stlye is ******ed. I recall a Cosgrove article on elitefts talking about using complexes to build cardio for fighting a few years back.

WillNoble
04-23-2009, 03:43 PM
I recall a Cosgrove article on elitefts talking about using complexes to build cardio for fighting a few years back.

What the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING?


Elite has many writers who say many different thing, maily because they are trying to approach many different markets to sell more products Thats why they sponsor not only powerlifters and strongmen, but extreme sports, martial artists (to the best of my knowledge where cosgrove got his start), boxers, etc. etc.

Elite is a sales company with good free info from various sources...


And please dont get me started on cosgrove, Lyle McD could write books about the problems with that guy...

KingJustin
04-23-2009, 04:32 PM
Ok, if you are saying that Elite has stuff on there that it doesn't/you don't buy into, then ignore that part I guess. I assumed you bought into most of what Elite has on there, and that article has fighters getting conditioned by doing "things they would never do in the ring."

WillNoble
04-23-2009, 04:38 PM
Ok, if you are saying that Elite has stuff on there that it doesn't/you don't buy into, then ignore that part I guess. I assumed you bought into most of what Elite has on there, and that article has fighters getting conditioned by doing "things they would never do in the ring."

The topic at hand is WSB, not elite, you seem to get the 2 confused

slashkills
04-23-2009, 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by KingJustin
I recall a Cosgrove article on elitefts talking about using complexes to build cardio for fighting a few years back.

Training for fighting and football are pretty different. Fighters should have more endurance. Football is less endurance and more strength and power. You keep using mma fighters and olypmic lifters as examples. Thats great if it works for them but i dont think CFF should be used for a football player.

It may be something to look into for a short time after the season ends or over winter for a short time to help endurance and even then a football player can gain endurance by more ssp stuff like tire flips and sandbag stuff. Majority of a football players training should be something more similiar to a westside/conjugate method.

KoSh
04-23-2009, 06:42 PM
Having really looked over the Crossfit Football stuff, I would never use it as a workout for the football team. It's just got no carryover to the field. Risk of injury is actually quite a bit higher too doing alot of those movements.

It looks like it may be fun, and I'm sure it's got tons of uses. I just don't like it for a football regimen.

WillNoble
04-23-2009, 06:59 PM
A CF program could include, each week,
(a) ME squats or deadlifts, ME bench, DE squats & DE bench, some heavy cleans/snatches, and 6x4, 5x5 (etc) work in another ten lifts,
(b) a couple conditioning works like "Quarter Gone Bad" (burpees, +50lb Pull-ups, 135 thrusters) and 135lb complexes (while rotating in new stuff each week)
(c)SSP - box jumps, sprints, downhill running, prowler pushes, agility drills, etc.
I fail to see how this is that much different from WSB.




Please correct me If Im wrong Travis, but this doesn't look anything like conjugate work to me, and if it does, Louie sure has changed things up at Westside

Travis Bell
04-23-2009, 09:03 PM
Please correct me If Im wrong Travis, but this doesn't look anything like conjugate work to me, and if it does, Louie sure has changed things up at Westside

Not really even close. No offense though KingJustin

Travis Bell
04-23-2009, 09:22 PM
Ok, if you are saying that Elite has stuff on there that it doesn't/you don't buy into, then ignore that part I guess. I assumed you bought into most of what Elite has on there, and that article has fighters getting conditioned by doing "things they would never do in the ring."

Man I'm gone for a day and this thread goes hog wild!! LOL great input guys and you have to give KJ some credit here, he's defending his position well from the crossfit perspective

KJ, what I think may be contributing to the confusion is several things. One of them being that EliteFts=Westside Barbell methods. This is not the case, which is why a few pages back I said if john wanted to include WSB methods into crossfit, he'd have been better off contacting Louie himself.

Dave Tate has expanded his methods to include many different things than the conjugate training system. Some of which I agree with, other of which I do not. I do however have lots of respect for the guy, as I do John.

The other thing is you keep referring to crossfit success with MMA fighters or endurance runners or other athletes, all of which I'm sure is true, but it just doesn't add to the discussion at hand, which is football.

I do realize the handicapp CFF has being that it's only been around for a short time so you don't have a list of experiences that you can list proving your side of the discussion.

Time will tell I suppose.

Travis Bell
04-23-2009, 09:26 PM
This unfortunately can be very untrue......There are a lot of coaches out there that do not let the S&C coach run the program without any interference from the sport staff. Looking back I only had one or two coaches that said "you are the strength coach, I will never come down and ask you what you think we should do different on the court, so you will never hear me quesion you about strength and conditioning" If only every coach would have that mentality, S&C coaching would run a lot smoother.

I have a good friend that recently took over as the head S&C coach at high level DII school, and he went in there and changed everything (which needed to happen). The previous S&C coach had these kids #s sky high, but neglected many aspects of training (proper technique, posterior chain strength, proper programming, etc...) so my buddy had to take a few steps back and start from scratch...Long story short, some of the #s were down during spring testing, and the FB staff flipped a gasket. My buddy had a 1 on 1 meeting with the head FB coach, and then pretty much had a sit down open Q and A in front of the whole staff. My buddy loved it, because they were firing away questions, pretty much ganging up on him, demanding him explain why a few of the #s were down. The funniest point the FB staff failed to realize was that every player except for like 2 were able to fully participate in Spring Practice vs the previous yr, where there were 15-20+ kids out from injuries...

Many sport coaches interfere with the S&C staff. It is a pain in the a$$ to sit down and try to explain your methodolgy to coaches who have no clue, but sometimes you have to plea your case to save your job.

A valid point. I worded that incorrectly. I should have said "should not..." My mistake

I have even run into this on a highschool coach level. Usually I end up telling the coach he can either let me do things my way, or I'm gone because this is a waste of my time.

The best team I've been involved with thus far is a team with a horrible record the last two years

You're right though, you do have to plead your case. Fortunately for me, I run my own setup, so the coach can only do so much, but at the end of the day it's much better to have him recommending me to his players instead of getting pissed if they come to me.

This is why I enjoy these discussions though, it has a lot of translation into real life discussions with other coaches

KingJustin
04-23-2009, 10:57 PM
Not really even close. No offense though KingJustin

Why is
Max Effort Work
Dynamic Effort Work
Repetition work

All done in the same microcycle not conjugate periodization?

KoSh
04-24-2009, 06:14 AM
I just read the article by Matt Perryman on Periodization as a Training Technique. It can be found here: http://www.wannabebig.com/training/bodybuilding/periodization-as-a-training-technique/

In it, Mr. Perryman claims that neither linear nor conjugate training is best for a football player:


For a powerlifter, a bodybuilder, or a few other types of specialized athletes, this might be fine [conjugate method]. But what about the athletes that need a more well-rounded approach? Football, basketball, baseball, wrestling, volleyball, track, swimming, and all types of martial arts are a few that fall into this category. Anyone interested in a general base of fitness, size, and strength would, as well. These athletes would require hypertrophy, speed-strength, strength endurance, maximal strength, and aerobic endurance, to varying degrees. All of these require different forms of training, and some are counter to the others.

He suggests a combination of linear and conjugate training for an athlete that needs a "more well rounded approach".


Research has shown that the detrimental effects of “overreaching” in training do not begin until the fourth to sixth week of training in that fashion. The proposal is simple: increase your total loading volume for three or four weeks, then take a single week of lowered volume to “deload.”

These blocks of training should be interspersed with occasional blocks devoted to other qualities, as well—anaerobic endurance, limit strength, and restoration are all possibilities, as they have direct carryover to the traditional mass training.

The standard mass training block should revolve around a core of compound exercises, with additional compound and isolation movements added to it. Shoot for 3-4 sets in the 6-10 rep range, close to failure, with short rests. For smaller bodyparts that have quicker recovery, a second day can be added with a single exercise for a few sets, taken to failure if you wish.


So here's what he proposes for a training cycle:


The standard mass training block should revolve around a core of compound exercises, with additional compound and isolation movements added to it. Shoot for 3-4 sets in the 6-10 rep range, close to failure, with short rests. For smaller bodyparts that have quicker recovery, a second day can be added with a single exercise for a few sets, taken to failure if you wish.

The deloading week should involve removal of all but the original compound movements, for 2-3 sets. Any second day you have for a bodypart should be removed as well. Failure on sets is your choice.

The other types of blocks should be done according to your preference. The max strength cycle should focus on a compound exercise done for sets in the 2-5 rep range, followed by accessory exercises and component exercises. Deload by removing the accessory exercises and cutting volume on the component exercises.

Anaerobic endurance should involve one or two compound movements for 5-8 sets of 6-8, absolutely not to failure, with 45-60 second rests between sets. Also include a few exercises of “standard” mass work. Cardio oriented around interval training could be included as well. Deload by removing one of the main exercises, and again lowering the volume on the mass-oriented exercises.

The restoration cycle is basically a period of lowered volume and stress—imagine the deloading week for all four weeks. This should be based around a HIT-style program, emphasizing only compound movements for a few sets, to failure.

The important thing to stress is that all of these qualities should be stressed during all blocks, just to different degrees. For example, even during mass blocks, you can train a key compound exercise for strength, just as you can do the same during an anaerobic-endurance block.

Finally, you can string these blocks together in any way that is needed—use a strength block, then two mass blocks, followed by an AE block, then a restoration block. Or any other combination you like.


It seems to me that Westside does these things quite accurately, especially through the Westside for Skinny Bastards Routine by DeFranco.

The only thing that I don't think a football player needs is anaerobic endurance. Considering most football plays last for about four to six seconds (sometimes a little longer, but not by much) I don't think this is an area that needs to be trained as frequently as speed-strength and power.

Deloading for four weeks seems to be a bit of an overkill as well.

I was wondering what you guys thought about this whole premise? I don't think this is optimal for football, like suggested, but I'm always open to expanding my "box" and stepping outside of the current one. So, any thoughts here?

Ben Moore
04-24-2009, 08:34 AM
I just read the article by Matt Perryman on Periodization as a Training Technique. It can be found here: http://www.wannabebig.com/training/bodybuilding/periodization-as-a-training-technique/

In it, Mr. Perryman claims that neither linear nor conjugate training is best for a football player:



He suggests a combination of linear and conjugate training for an athlete that needs a "more well rounded approach".



So here's what he proposes for a training cycle:



It seems to me that Westside does these things quite accurately, especially through the Westside for Skinny Bastards Routine by DeFranco.

The only thing that I don't think a football player needs is anaerobic endurance. Considering most football plays last for about four to six seconds (sometimes a little longer, but not by much) I don't think this is an area that needs to be trained as frequently as speed-strength and power.

Deloading for four weeks seems to be a bit of an overkill as well.

I was wondering what you guys thought about this whole premise? I don't think this is optimal for football, like suggested, but I'm always open to expanding my "box" and stepping outside of the current one. So, any thoughts here?

Keep in mind that true westside and ws4sb are 2 different things.

I just read the article by Matt Perryman on Periodization as a Training Technique. It can be found here: http://www.wannabebig.com/training/bodybuilding/periodization-as-a-training-technique/

Also from his website:
My name is Matt Perryman. You may know me from The Internet, or you might have just stumbled on this page from Google or something.

Yes, this page is loosely about strength training, with an emphasis towards bodybuilding, recreational lifting, and just plain ol’ looking good. This is a place for me to bitch about everything else and maybe even post some occasionally useful information.

I put a premium on logical reasoning, critical thinking, and scientific research more than anecdote and “what everybody knows” about exercise, so expect a lot of nerd-talk. Ideally this is the place to get your dose of (largely) unbiased information on current events, trends, and interests in the fitness industry.

Enjoy, and don’t hesitate to send me any feedback or questions you may have.

Seems to me he's not too into strength and conditioning for the athlete, but rather "plain ol' looking good". I've not met many strength coaches concerned with that.

Sensei
04-24-2009, 09:23 AM
Things have certainly gotten convoluted here... All of this talk of conjugated periodization, concurrent training, etc. really isn't helpful to a high school S&C coach. Should they know something about those things? Sure, but only if it's helping you sift through all of the crap...

If you are a strength coach at a high school, IMHO, you must consider the following:
*how to efficiently work with your athletes with limited time and resources
- Even if you wanted to, this pretty much eliminates EVERY high school program from implementing CF as is. Unless it's the dead of winter, or you can bring in group of kids at crazy hours, facilities and space aren't going to be available.

*how to address their strength deficits (and you will NOT be able to address them all in your limited time)
- We talked about this early in the thread (I think), but most kids have horrible hip extension and the entire posterior chain is a mess that doesn't fire, is weak, and inflexible. Poor relative strength is commonplace and absolute strength is no different.

*how to address "conditioning"
- I can walk faster than most teams around here "jog". Separators are the closest thing to "agility work" I see with most teams and usually they'll do this for such long intervals that there's nothing quick about them... When plyos are done, they are do in such excess that it is a testament to the resilience of youth that there aren't more injuries.

I'd like to type more, but I have to get back to work.... I feel like I repeat myself a lot (I guess I probably do, kids say so), but MOST high school kids don't need much to improve A LOT. Hitting the basics hard and consistently (year-round) will put them light-years ahead of most of their peers.

Brad08
04-24-2009, 09:28 AM
As far as athletes in professional sports -- There's so many fighters that use CrossFit. I'm sure several of them moved up the ranks because of it. I honestly have no idea, though.

If any elite-level MMA fighter used Crossfit, you can be CERTAIN their name(s) would be plastered all over the Crossfit site. I've seen none.

I do know that Glassman took credit for BJ Penn and trotted his name out whenever it served his interests....and we ALL know how BJ's "conditioning" was in his fight with GSP.


I know for certain, though, that a large # of professional athletes train CF...

Who? And did they DEVELOP their skills with Crossfit? And do they train Crossfit EXCLUSIVELY to maintain their skillset?



As far as taking guys from the ground up -- there's a group of probably 40+ guys that have can hit 300 C&J, 500 DL, 5min mile, and 40 consecutive pull-ups

Those are good numbers. But, first, did any of these "probably 40+ guys" get these numbers from Crossfit or were they ALREADY high-level athletes when they started Crossfit? I've seen plenty of references to "Eva T" and "Josh Everett," both of whom were high-level athletes in their own right ever before they joined Crossfit.

Second, take a look at the 'comments' section on any "heavy" day on the Crossfit site. NOBODY is hitting these numbers. NOBODY. And anyone who is deadlifting 500 (much less C&J 300) was this strong BEFORE Crossfit. Crossift certainly didn't build this strength.

Third, out of the THOUSANDS of people who are now Crossfitting, there are only "probably 40+ guys" with these decent numbers? That's not proof of an effective program.

KingJustin
04-24-2009, 05:07 PM
If any elite-level MMA fighter used Crossfit, you can be CERTAIN their name(s) would be plastered all over the Crossfit site. I've seen none.
I know Vitor Belfort trains out of CF Balboa.



But, first, did any of these "probably 40+ guys" get these numbers from Crossfit or were they ALREADY high-level athletes when they started Crossfit?
Look at the results from the CF Games from 2 years ago, and then look at the results this year (right now qualifiers are going on). There have been significant improvements.
I don't follow the top guys as closely as some others, but I know that Chris Spieler, Mike G (CFAtl), OPT, and last year's winner -- Jason Khalipa, all do a modified version of the main site (usually scale up + add a little). I haven't followed Jason Khalipa, but I know that Spieller & OPT have seriously progressed since doing CrossFit. And, Mike G's strength has just about doubled in the past 2 years, while still improving significantly on cardio.

And these guys like Everett were no-doubt great athletes before CrossFit began, but they've made huge improvements over the past few years since they started doing a modified version of CF. Everett a couple years ago was finishing "Isabel" (30 135lb snatches for time) in 3 minutes, after he had already started doing a lot of conditioning. Recently, he finished the workout in 71 seconds (which, I implore you to go try -- it's one of the easiest workouts for strong lifters).

A lot of the top guys, admittedly, had a good strength base coming in. But, they didn't have the conditioning, and CF allowed them to keep the strength they have while making their conditioning incredible. There are also some athletes (i.e. OPT, Spealer and Mike G) that had triathlete-type backgrounds, but with no strength. CF allowed them to get up to around 3x BW deadlifts.

I really don't think this is a debatable point at all. CF is hugely effective at making someone a very well rounded athlete. I happen to think that the addition of a little extra strength work is beneficial (which is why I do CFF now, and have done a hybrid program in the past), but I've seen first-hand an incredibly high percentage of people make extraordinary progress.



Second, take a look at the 'comments' section on any "heavy" day on the Crossfit site. NOBODY is hitting these numbers. NOBODY. And anyone who is deadlifting 500 (much less C&J 300) was this strong BEFORE Crossfit. Crossift certainly didn't build this strength.
How many comments did you read that were from people that have qualified for this year's games? My deadlift went from 435 to 485 within 4 months after joining CrossFit Wilmington (I switched from WSB to a hybrid CF program).
Take a look at a vid from my old gym. I left 9 months ago (Chubrock still lifts there) and the guy at the end, Zach, was at around a 235lb C&J at that time.
(CF-Wilmington does, like most affiliates, their own WODs). Scroll to 3/28 (all the guys on the vid have excellent conditioning as well).
http://crossfitwilmington.com/archives.asp?m=3
BTW, Zach and Tony can both jerk whatever they cleaned.

One of my workout partners down here in Atlanta follows the WOD every day. I don't know how he makes significant strength gains since he's not a beginner, but he went from a 445 lb deadlift to 505 since December (445 was previous PR).

In regard to nobody being able to hit those numbers...
Just off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure OPT, Chuck Carswell, Max Mormount, and Josh Everett can hit all those numbers (and higher for some of them). About 40 guys are very close to some of the #'s, and then better in others... like
Mikko Salo, Jason Khalipa, Jeremy Thiel, Jeff Tincher, Anthony Bainbridge and Mike G. Zach and Tony aren't far off either. And, I'm at about 90% of those numbers overall.
Look at the athletes that qualify for the games and not the people that have been working out for a year that post on the main page.




Third, out of the THOUSANDS of people who are now Crossfitting, there are only "probably 40+ guys" with these decent numbers? That's not proof of an effective program.
Go do "Fight Gone Bad" and let me know what you score. Or do today's workout - "Tillman." Or have one of your friends that plays football or lacrosse or something try it.
And, can you name some people that are (a) Natural, (b) Not using even a weight belt, that can come very close to all this, and then can also compete on the metcons?
Yeah, a 500 lb deadlift isn't all that competitive in powerlifting. A 5 minute mile isn't all that competitive in track. But being able to do them both, not to mention about 50 other things that are equivalent? Go show me some people that can that have avoided CF.

joey54
04-24-2009, 06:21 PM
Justin you have made good points, but the bottom line is the success of a football program comes down to how well you perform on the field. Since this is a new program, we will have to see a bit. Lifting and running numbers in the end don't mean jack if you don't do it come game time.

KingJustin
04-24-2009, 07:23 PM
Justin you have made good points, but the bottom line is the success of a football program comes down to how well you perform on the field. Since this is a new program, we will have to see a bit. Lifting and running numbers in the end don't mean jack if you don't do it come game time.

I don't think an S&C coach needs to teach receivers how to catch balls. He needs to produce strong, explosive, fast, well conditioned athletes. (Edit: that are not going to be injury prone ... and maybe there should be agility work)

But, if you guys don't believe this program has proved itself, then fair enough. There's no doubt that DeFranco's methods are excellent.

My point in this thread was to respond to: "For a conditioning test [CFF] would be interesting to try, but to follow solely as a program, I would pass."

CrazyK
04-24-2009, 08:08 PM
Justin...add me to the list of ex/current football players who will tell you that CF has no place near a football player's regiment. None what so ever.

CF is a decent plan for people who want to specialize in nothing.

KingJustin
04-24-2009, 08:27 PM
Justin...add me to the list of ex/current football players who will tell you that CF has no place near a football player's regiment. None what so ever.

CF is a decent plan for people who want to specialize in nothing.

Yeah, but you obviously don't understand what CrossFit is.

Again, this line of thinking is like saying a MMA fighter can't use conjugate periodization. That's dumb. Obviously you're going to switch the way you set the program up depending on the goals, but the CF method (and WSB method) can be tailored to a specific need.

Sensei
04-24-2009, 08:51 PM
I promise to bow out of this after leaving with some parting thoughts...

I've always been a fan of WS, but WS has had (and still has) its critics. Dave Tate and Louie used to say WS was the best training for EVERYTHING from bodybuilding to track and field - I think their opinions have softened a bit since.
10 years ago, a lot of powerlifters and probably most S&C coaches thought Louie was full of ***** and one of things he stressed, as we all know, was GPP.

Now (back to CFFB), everyone who's given the idea much thought at all knows that not all GPP is created equal, especially when the ultimate goal is to further SPP.

Of course advanced athletes need GPP, but, in the big picture, they need much, much less than developing athletes... and the absolutely last thing they need is a lot of superfluous GPP work. I don't mean to pick a strawman argument here, but 100 ring dips and air squats are just misplaced effort in my humble, humble opinion.

CrazyK
04-24-2009, 09:08 PM
You obviously don't understand what CrossFit is.

Again, this line of thinking is like saying a MMA fighter can't use WSB. That's just stupid.I did an entire summer of crossfit in prepping for my junior season of college fball. Designed specifically for football players (according to them). Strength down, speed down, quickness down. It simply isn't an optimal plan for 4 seconds on, 30-60 seconds off work (a play).

Then again I guess your extensive experience with highschool cross country one ups everyone else in this thread.

KingJustin
04-24-2009, 09:30 PM
I did an entire summer of crossfit in prepping for my junior season of college fball. Designed specifically for football players (according to them). Strength down, speed down, quickness down. It simply isn't an optimal plan for 4 seconds on, 30-60 seconds off work (a play).

That's crazy, because this dude (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkqKYy6O7Yk) does CrossFit, and he got a lot stronger while doing it. He's pretty explosive. (this is one of the guys I train with at Emory & CFAtl, so I know how he trains, which is why I'm using him as an example). Oh, and the 284lb Snatch in the video was done @ 169 lbs by a natural 20 year old.

I am guessing you didn't read the whole thread. That said, if you had CF coaches for football, and you got weaker still, then maybe the system just doesn't work for you, so whatever. I think the coaches probably proportioned the program wrong, but whatever.

Travis Bell
04-24-2009, 09:34 PM
I don't think an S&C coach needs to teach receivers how to catch balls. He needs to produce strong, explosive, fast, well conditioned athletes.

No he doesn't teach them to catch balls bud, but how fast the receiver got down the field, how many tackles he was able to avoid and how well prepared his body is for the intense impact from the tackle (injury prevention) along with how many times said receiver can repeat said play over and over is the responsibility of the strength and conditioning coach. That is exactly what performance on the field is that Joey is talking about.

The strength and conditioning coach that isn't worried about performance on the field will most likely lose his job faster than his athletes can run a 40.

CrazyK
04-24-2009, 09:49 PM
That's crazy, because this dude (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkqKYy6O7Yk) does CrossFit, and he got a lot stronger while doing it. He's pretty explosive. (this is one of the guys I train with at Emory & CFAtl, so I know how he trains, which is why I'm using him as an example). Oh, and this is @ 77kg.

I am guessing you didn't read the whole thread. That said, if you had CF coaches for football, and you got weaker still, then maybe the system just doesn't work for you, so whatever. I think the coaches probably proportioned the program wrong, but whatever.I read through the thread.

Or...maybe, just maybe it's not optimal for football players. I understand what it's like to be indoctrinated in to thinking one style of training is the holy grail of all programs, but they all have strengths and weaknesses. The question to ask is what are your strengths/weaknesses and subsequently what program fills in the gaps you need.

KingJustin
04-24-2009, 11:16 PM
The fact is that you are saying you got weaker and less explosive while doing CF.

A lot of top level Oly lifters train using CrossFit principles. It's one argument to say that it's not good for football (which I disagree with, but I think there are valid arguments in regard to GPP vs. SSP, although to an extent CFF encourages doing SSP on your own based on your own skills, weaknesses and position).
It's another argument to say that training CF won't gain strength. I train with 3 guys that each just finished in the top 5 at collegiate nationals in various weight classes that do some variation of CrossFit (we have a couple other guys/girls that train in a way that could not be classified as CF that did well, admittedly). If these guys are able to make strength and power gains and be toward the very top in explosiveness while training CF, I just don't see how you can say "CF is a decent plan for people who want to specialize in nothing." These guys are very specialized.

CrazyK
04-25-2009, 01:49 AM
I became weaker and less explosive doing CF because I changed from a superior program to an inferior one.

People can make progress on CF however. So can begginers who pick up Schwarzenegger's Encyclopedia, and so can people who are on 1000mg of Test. Pointing to a few people and saying "Hey this dude is strong, and he does CF!!!" is a moot point as I can show you every record holder in strength sports in the world who doesn't do CF.

As I said before indoctrination makes one see the world through certain sets of sunglasses. Always through a tint.

Brad08
04-25-2009, 05:58 AM
To address a point made on the last page, Justin, getting better at crossfit (e.g., reducing your time in Isabel) proves nothing especially if arguing for effectiveness in a specific sport like football.

The whole point and one that every crossfitter continuously misses is that PRACTICING A SPECIFIC TASK (IN THIS CASE ISABEL) MAKES YOU BETTER AT THAT TASK. Unless you're a relatively unskilled (beginner) footballer, snatching 135 lbs 30 times just isnt the fastest (or safest) way to improve on the field.


A lot of top level Oly lifters train using CrossFit principles.

I just don't believe this at all.



It's another argument to say that training CF won't gain strength. I train with 3 guys that each just finished in the top 5 at collegiate nationals in various weight classes that do some variation of CrossFit (we have a couple other guys/girls that train in a way that could not be classified as CF that did well, admittedly). If these guys are able to make strength and power gains and be toward the very top in explosiveness while training CF, I just don't see how you can say "CF is a decent plan for people who want to specialize in nothing." These guys are very specialized.

These guys were already at the top in terms of strength and explosiveness. How can you say crossfit specifically made them better oly lifters? Did they STOP their regular weight training during this time?? That is a critical point. Did they specifically get stronger on their competitive lifts?

...

You're doing a decent job of arguing for crossfit but honestly, with some critical analysis, almost everything you've said can be debunked pretty quickly.

joey54
04-25-2009, 08:02 AM
King J, I still stand by my original statement, but do appreciate how strongly you believe in the program. Therein lies a huge key. If one can get a group of kids to buy into a program and put all their effort into it, as long as it is somewhat efficiently designed, you will probably get good results. Why, because they will get better(stronger, faster) because they are sold into the program. In that regard, this program could be effective. For me, when I was playing it would have been fun to try these workouts for a week, but I preferred lifting progressively heavier weights week in and out, combined with various types of sprinting drills to mimic the speed of football plays for my conditioning(during separate workout sessions). I also would do a distance run once or twice per week for overall cardiovascular health.

Also Travis made a statement which I feels is very important. During my playing days in college I looked at weightlifting to be just as important for injury prevention as building strength for the season. I looked at it for the most part as a stronger overall muscle would be better equipped to take the physical pounding week in and week out.

KingJustin
04-25-2009, 09:32 AM
To address a point made on the last page, Justin, getting better at crossfit (e.g., reducing your time in Isabel) proves nothing especially if arguing for effectiveness in a specific sport like football.
Well, a lot of my comments are getting kinda taken out of context because we've gone off on a lot of tangents. I wasn't saying that CF is good because your times on these metcons drop.
We were talking about whether the top guys made improvements by doing CF, or whethr they were just already in shape.


A lot of top level Oly lifters train using CrossFit principles.
I just don't believe this at all.
I don't want to post a link, but look at CAthletics. A lot of the top lifters follow that program.

Are these guys doing the CrossFit main page WOD every day? No, of course not. But they train using CF methods. (CAthletics workouts look pretty similar to CF, right?)



These guys were already at the top in terms of strength and explosiveness. How can you say crossfit specifically made them better oly lifters? Did they STOP their regular weight training during this time??
Everett went up by 15 lbs on his C&J over the past year (342 to 357 at 180 lbs). My buddy that I posted the video of had an 8kg increase on his snatch, and a similar increase in his clean since doing CF. The vid I posted was 2008 collegiate nationals. In 2007 he PR'd at 122kg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9IqmvyeeTU) 1 year earlier. 7kg in a year at that level is significant, and he was doing CF for the year.
I still don't see how you guys don't think you can get stronger by using the tools: (a) ME/DE/basically almost always going 100% lifting in the 1-5 rep range, plus (b) for rep work, doing it in an intense cardio circuit, possibly with heavy weights, plus (c) SSP and weakness/injury prevention work as needed, plus (d) HIIT and endurance work as needed. The proportions of each depend on your sport. If you're an endurance athlete, you're going to be working a lot on (d), and very little on (a). If you're a strength athlete, then you're not going to be doing many cardio circuits.

I haven't been around a whole lot of powerlifters since I started CF, and so maybe for you guys already moving serious weights, if you can't get in heavy rep work, outside of a cardio workout, then you simply can't get stronger. And, maybe that is something that separates PLers from OLers.

WillNoble
04-25-2009, 10:33 AM
man you really need to get off the crossfit kool-aid and open your eyes.

None of us in here are saying CF is a BAD training protocol. What we are ALL saying is that CF for football is a terrible idea

get it thru your dome, that it is not superior...


There have been over a hundred responses in this thread giving you every reason why CF is not great for FB... Give it up

benny
04-25-2009, 03:41 PM
After reading all this I think I realized I am the 2nd biggest fan of CF on WBB.

CF is great for conditioning and overall fitness, but I don't think it is the best thing for football. Joe DeFranco is probably the #1 resource for football training.

CF is #1 for me and the goals I have, but I'm a 29yo office worker, not a football player.

Brad08
04-27-2009, 02:57 PM
Perhaps Crossfit is a good S&C program after all.

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-affiliates/albanytire_b.jpg

Mike G
04-27-2009, 06:27 PM
The second chick from the left is pretty hot.

Brad, why do you keep up with CF so much if you don't really like it? You've talked about the postings and now this, are you secretly a CF groupie?

Brad08
04-28-2009, 05:57 AM
The second chick from the left is pretty hot.

Brad, why do you keep up with CF so much if you don't really like it? You've talked about the postings and now this, are you secretly a CF groupie?

Yes. That's me on the left, in the red.

Mike G
04-28-2009, 07:42 AM
Yes. That's me on the left, in the red.

You're jacked.

WillNoble
04-28-2009, 08:02 AM
You're jacked.

you should see him in real life, he's at least twice that chubby

CrazyK
04-28-2009, 09:54 PM
Perhaps Crossfit is a good S&C program after all.

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-affiliates/albanytire_b.jpgI lmao'd.