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Erik 23
05-26-2009, 04:50 PM
I was wondering does the Strength for locking out heavy weight in the Deadlift come from your back muscles,like Lats or is it more of a hip Strength kinda thing.Reason i ask is okay my squat is Lower than my deadlift.I feel as though i can pull almost anything off the ground but then when i get it past my knees i stall and have to hitch on a max weight.

So if it is Hips for instance then maybe i can figure out the exercises i need to do to strengthen up my weakspots for the lockout.So i thought that since my squats arent near my deadlift then maybe thats whats giving me a hard time locking weight out,because then my quads and hips might not be strong enough to push through to lockout.

evilxxx
05-26-2009, 05:00 PM
Rack pulls from mid shins and from the knees have been working nice for me. my worst spot was the initial pull but you dont have a problem with that, but decifits are working fine for me and diferent feet placement.

Erik 23
05-26-2009, 05:13 PM
Rack pulls from mid shins and from the knees have been working nice for me. my worst spot was the initial pull but you dont have a problem with that, but decifits are working fine for me and diferent feet placement.

Yeah im doing rack pulls now my problem with that is that im weaker from the rack then i am off the floor.I am still having a little trouble hitching in there too.So im trying to figure out what is my weakpoint.I guess im trying to figure out which muscle group is weak so ill know how to attack it in training.The deficits i havent tried them yet and ill try the differn feet placement maybe thatll help me thanx man.

BFGUITAR
05-26-2009, 05:25 PM
Do deadlifts with bands. Deadlift in a rack and tie the bands to the bottom of the rack and loop over the bar. It mimics a deadlift exactly except adds like 100lbs do the lockout (depending on the bands and your height of course).

Tom Mutaffis
05-26-2009, 05:33 PM
Bottom position high box squats, rack pulls, band/chain work, and tweaking your setup may all help the top portion of your deadlift.

A slightly wider stance allows you to involve more hips in the lift, and making sure to sink your hips on the initial pull will leave you in a better position to finish the lift.

If strength is what is limiting you then heavy rack work should resolve that and box squats can provide for some variation and additional hip strength.

MarcusWild
05-26-2009, 05:50 PM
Conventional or sumo?

Pete22
05-26-2009, 06:24 PM
Upper back strength is crucial for my lockout, when my DB/BB rows feel strong then my lockout is usually solid. Shooting my hips through is also key, I use pull-throughs and SLDLs and focus on popping my hips through at the top.

Lones Green
05-26-2009, 06:33 PM
I find hip work more useful than anything. Pulls with bands are my favorite, pulls from blocks and rack pulls with heavy band tension, GHR's, pull throughs, goodmornings.

Sean S
05-26-2009, 07:30 PM
Do you have any video of a max or near max lift? It's tough to tell what's going on without seeing what's going on. For example, I've observed that the majority of conventional DL's that stall above the knees are due to the fact that they get in poor position off the floor and are rounded over so much at the top that they can't finish. So just because the problem is above the knees doesn't necessarily mean it's the hips. It could be any number of things, so the video is important in really trying to diagnose the problem.

Erik 23
05-26-2009, 09:54 PM
Do deadlifts with bands. Deadlift in a rack and tie the bands to the bottom of the rack and loop over the bar. It mimics a deadlift exactly except adds like 100lbs do the lockout (depending on the bands and your height of course).
Thanx man i do these once in awhile i will start back to them havent done them in forever lol.


Bottom position high box squats, rack pulls, band/chain work, and tweaking your setup may all help the top portion of your deadlift.

A slightly wider stance allows you to involve more hips in the lift, and making sure to sink your hips on the initial pull will leave you in a better position to finish the lift.

If strength is what is limiting you then heavy rack work should resolve that and box squats can provide for some variation and additional hip strength.
Thanx Tom did Deads today i widened my stance a little just those few inches made a world of differnce i almost locked out 805 was only a few inches off.I Couldnt hitch really with the wider stance which is good lol. It was pretty much just a continous pull my warm ups all flew up too i guess it was a hip issue because everything went better today.Ive been doing rack pulls thats what i did today out of the lowest pin in the rack havent been doing bands and chains to much latley ima start back since you all are reccomending them more.I never tried bottom position high box squats.Just to make sure im getting it right.You start out sitting on the box and just squat up from there? and how high should the box be? thanx for the help Tom talk to you soon.




Conventional or sumo?
I Deadlift conventional

Upper back strength is crucial for my lockout, when my DB/BB rows feel strong then my lockout is usually solid. Shooting my hips through is also key, I use pull-throughs and SLDLs and focus on popping my hips through at the top.Thanx pete havent done Rows in forever i will eventually add these in too again I never did pull throughs are they that beneficial? there Primarilly a back excercise right? and which band do you recomend using for these? and yeah i think its my hips i have to learn how to shoot them thru quickly.


I find hip work more useful than anything. Pulls with bands are my favorite, pulls from blocks and rack pulls with heavy band tension, GHR's, pull throughs, goodmornings.
Thanx lones Everyone is saying a lot of band work i havent done a lot of it in a little bit ima definately start back havent done goodmorings but a few times If they help your hip strength a lot i might add these into my routine once in a while.Thanx man for the response

Do you have any video of a max or near max lift? It's tough to tell what's going on without seeing what's going on. For example, I've observed that the majority of conventional DL's that stall above the knees are due to the fact that they get in poor position off the floor and are rounded over so much at the top that they can't finish. So just because the problem is above the knees doesn't necessarily mean it's the hips. It could be any number of things, so the video is important in really trying to diagnose the problem.

Okay here is the link i almost locked this but as you see this is my problem like i can pull almost anything off the floor but once i get past the knees thats where i tend to stall out .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9ldXAjFWyo&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz7LpoiAd7s&feature=channel_page

MarcusWild
05-26-2009, 10:42 PM
I think your issue is form. Why do you go back so far with your upper back? Just lock your knees and you'll have it locked out. That and sweat pants aren't going to help when the bar is dragging against them.

Erik 23
05-27-2009, 06:43 AM
I think your issue is form. Why do you go back so far with your upper back? Just lock your knees and you'll have it locked out. That and sweat pants aren't going to help when the bar is dragging against them.

I dont know why i lean back thats why im asking for advice the sweats dont bother me too much ive been doing them in shorts latley though.I know im supposed to just lock knees out but its like my body dosent do that when i get it up so far ionno why.

Guido
05-27-2009, 07:52 AM
I find that glute, hip, and upper back strength are most important for me on DL lockouts. I pull conventional. The things that have helped me most in the past have been good mornings, glute ham raises, and heavy rack squats focusing on bringing the hips forward by squeezing your glutes tight and that usually makes me bring my shoulders back. Once it gets past my knees I just really think about squezzing my glutes, brining hips forward and lockout out knees at the same time. I don't even do any rack pulls (haven't helped me much), just a lot of the aformentioned movements and pulling from the floor and my lockouts have never been better.

Kenny Croxdale
05-27-2009, 09:25 AM
I was wondering does the Strength for locking out heavy weight in the Deadlift come from your back muscles,like Lats or is it more of a hip Strength kinda thing.Reason i ask is okay my squat is Lower than my deadlift.I feel as though i can pull almost anything off the ground but then when i get it past my knees i stall and have to hitch on a max weight.

So if it is Hips for instance then maybe i can figure out the exercises i need to do to strengthen up my weakspots for the lockout.

Erik,

One exericise the will help the top part of your pull is the Power Clean from the hang position. The hang position being just below the knee caps to just above them.

Power Cleans will work everything involved in the top part of the deadlift (lats, traps, hips, etc).

Kenny Croxdale

Erik 23
05-27-2009, 03:38 PM
I find that glute, hip, and upper back strength are most important for me on DL lockouts. I pull conventional. The things that have helped me most in the past have been good mornings, glute ham raises, and heavy rack squats focusing on bringing the hips forward by squeezing your glutes tight and that usually makes me bring my shoulders back. Once it gets past my knees I just really think about squezzing my glutes, brining hips forward and lockout out knees at the same time. I don't even do any rack pulls (haven't helped me much), just a lot of the aformentioned movements and pulling from the floor and my lockouts have never been better.

Hey Guido thanx for the tips From what every one says its my hips i think so im going to start a training cycle trying to bring up my hip strength thanx again man.


Erik,

One exericise the will help the top part of your pull is the Power Clean from the hang position. The hang position being just below the knee caps to just above them.

Power Cleans will work everything involved in the top part of the deadlift (lats, traps, hips, etc).

Kenny Croxdale

Hey kenny thanx man i never tried this excercise ill give it a try and see if it helps thanx.

Hazerboy
05-27-2009, 07:22 PM
Erik,
You're situation is very... weird. I've never see anyone come off the floor with that sort of speed and fail so quickly at the knees. Obviously the advice everyone is giving you is to work the top part of the lift somehow (bands, rack lockouts, etc) though just from watching your videos I'd say it is a form issue, in which case most of use aren't going to be able to help you very much. Something specific looks like it might be going wrong here, or else you're just incredibly weak at the top or something (which I don't think is the case - whats your best deadlift lockouts? Whats your best squat? both are very heavy I'm guessing). My advice to you is to ask Sgt. ROCK on this board. He is a deadlift specialist who knows what he's talking about, and if something weird is going on with your form, he'll probably know how to help.

Anyways, I'll go on ahead and give you my .02 cents about some stuff that might help you anyways. I rarely do rack lockouts and I don't pull against bands much. Eventually, when I start pulling heavier weights, I might have to start focusing on it, but I figure that as long as I have enough floor spead I should be able to make it to lock out. This is why I think its a form issue for you - when most people fail at lockout, they SLOW DOWN heavily first, they don't just stop.

anyways, I pull from deficiets a lot and do a **** ton of chin ups and pull ups. This brought my deadlift from 500 - 550 in maybe 9 months at 200 lbs while I was really concentrating on bench and squat. My best rack pull from the knees is maybe 600 lbs. I will maybe pull a few heavy singles a week and thats it.

So yeah. get your form checked is all I can tell you XD

Guido
05-28-2009, 09:31 AM
One form tip that might help is to think about pushing your heels through the floor. It will force you to keep your weight back more and have a bit more of an upright back at the start of the pull. Also make sure the bar is over the middle of your feet when you start the pull (about 2 inches from shins). Some people start with the bar too far away and the combination of that and the not pushing through the heels makes them in a non-advantageous position for pulling once the bar gets to their knees and then that's of course where they stall out.

Travis Bell
05-28-2009, 09:55 AM
Erik, you're still hitching in those two videos bud.

It looks like more habit than anything else, but as soon as you lay that bar on your knees/quads, that leaning back and fourth thing is still considered hitching. At least it'll get you reds in a meet.

I'd throw in some upper back work, specifically DB rows. Hard and heavy.

Sean S
05-28-2009, 10:14 AM
To echo some others, it looks mostly like a habit you've developed. Do you do this with submax weights?
Concentrate on pushing your hips forward and picking your head up at the same time as soon as the weight clears your knees. Right now your pick your head up, but you shoot your knees forward at the same time. I think practicing correct form with submax weights and working up over a period of weeks to keep reinforcing the correct form would help. You might also consider RDL's to just below the knees. Again, push the hips forward as soon as the bar clears the knees.

Guido
05-28-2009, 10:40 AM
You might also consider RDL's to just below the knees. Again, push the hips forward as soon as the bar clears the knees.Yeah. That is a good suggestion, as well.

Also, watch this vid of my recent 600 pull. It's not as much as some guys on here can lift but I think I have decent form for doing max effort weight. I also start to stall right around the knees and then you'll see me fight to bring my hips forward, shoulders back, and lock knees at the same time.

lTzLe9iTh1U

Tom Mutaffis
05-28-2009, 11:34 AM
Thanx Tom did Deads today i widened my stance a little just those few inches made a world of differnce i almost locked out 805 was only a few inches off.I Couldnt hitch really with the wider stance which is good lol. It was pretty much just a continous pull my warm ups all flew up too i guess it was a hip issue because everything went better today.Ive been doing rack pulls thats what i did today out of the lowest pin in the rack havent been doing bands and chains to much latley ima start back since you all are reccomending them more.I never tried bottom position high box squats.Just to make sure im getting it right.You start out sitting on the box and just squat up from there? and how high should the box be? thanx for the help Tom talk to you soon.

I actually do the bottom position squats off of the pins, but a high box (or bench) works also. Basically like a quarter squat but you are starting from the bottom. Deadlifts start from the bottom so this makes the movement a bit more similar in terms of how you engage the weight.

Switching over to OLY squats as opposed to PL squats may have better carryover to your deadlift as well.

Heavy upper back work as Travis suggested would be a good idea as well. One arm dumbell rows with a little bit of loose form. A guy with your strength should easily be handling the heaviest DB's that your gym has.

The hang cleans may help out a bit as well. They are a good movement for building upper back power.

Erik 23
05-29-2009, 03:52 PM
Erik,
You're situation is very... weird. I've never see anyone come off the floor with that sort of speed and fail so quickly at the knees. Obviously the advice everyone is giving you is to work the top part of the lift somehow (bands, rack lockouts, etc) though just from watching your videos I'd say it is a form issue, in which case most of use aren't going to be able to help you very much. Something specific looks like it might be going wrong here, or else you're just incredibly weak at the top or something (which I don't think is the case - whats your best deadlift lockouts? Whats your best squat? both are very heavy I'm guessing). My advice to you is to ask Sgt. ROCK on this board. He is a deadlift specialist who knows what he's talking about, and if something weird is going on with your form, he'll probably know how to help.

Anyways, I'll go on ahead and give you my .02 cents about some stuff that might help you anyways. I rarely do rack lockouts and I don't pull against bands much. Eventually, when I start pulling heavier weights, I might have to start focusing on it, but I figure that as long as I have enough floor spead I should be able to make it to lock out. This is why I think its a form issue for you - when most people fail at lockout, they SLOW DOWN heavily first, they don't just stop.

anyways, I pull from deficiets a lot and do a **** ton of chin ups and pull ups. This brought my deadlift from 500 - 550 in maybe 9 months at 200 lbs while I was really concentrating on bench and squat. My best rack pull from the knees is maybe 600 lbs. I will maybe pull a few heavy singles a week and thats it.

So yeah. get your form checked is all I can tell you XD
Thanx for the Response Hazer boy yeah form is my biggest problem A few guys recommended my stance so i widened it out a bit and its been going a little better,Im still conventional just a little wider.But thanx man ima do more bands like everyone is saying my best rack lockout is 815 from about at the knees or a pin above i forget which one.



One form tip that might help is to think about pushing your heels through the floor. It will force you to keep your weight back more and have a bit more of an upright back at the start of the pull. Also make sure the bar is over the middle of your feet when you start the pull (about 2 inches from shins). Some people start with the bar too far away and the combination of that and the not pushing through the heels makes them in a non-advantageous position for pulling once the bar gets to their knees and then that's of course where they stall out.
Hey Guido thanx I pulled the other day with the bar about 2 inches or so in front of me and it went better then having it drive up my legs the whole way.I will focus on driving my feet straight thru the floor thanx again for the response.

Erik, you're still hitching in those two videos bud.

It looks like more habit than anything else, but as soon as you lay that bar on your knees/quads, that leaning back and fourth thing is still considered hitching. At least it'll get you reds in a meet.

I'd throw in some upper back work, specifically DB rows. Hard and heavy.Hey Travis yeah your right thats not gonna pass in a meet im just trying to find out what my weakness is i think its my hips from everyones comments so now i have to pick a good excercise to attack it.Okay ima throw in the Db rows these will hit the lats pretty good maybe theyll hit something im missing thanx Travis.


To echo some others, it looks mostly like a habit you've developed. Do you do this with submax weights?
Concentrate on pushing your hips forward and picking your head up at the same time as soon as the weight clears your knees. Right now your pick your head up, but you shoot your knees forward at the same time. I think practicing correct form with submax weights and working up over a period of weeks to keep reinforcing the correct form would help. You might also consider RDL's to just below the knees. Again, push the hips forward as soon as the bar clears the knees.Hey Sean thanx for the response yeah i tend to do this even with weights that arent a max Ima work on pushing my hips out and picking my head up more thanx.


Yeah. That is a good suggestion, as well.

Also, watch this vid of my recent 600 pull. It's not as much as some guys on here can lift but I think I have decent form for doing max effort weight. I also start to stall right around the knees and then you'll see me fight to bring my hips forward, shoulders back, and lock knees at the same time.

lTzLe9iTh1U
Hey Guido Awesome Video man yeah you fought throu that it was a good lift.


I actually do the bottom position squats off of the pins, but a high box (or bench) works also. Basically like a quarter squat but you are starting from the bottom. Deadlifts start from the bottom so this makes the movement a bit more similar in terms of how you engage the weight.

Switching over to OLY squats as opposed to PL squats may have better carryover to your deadlift as well.

Heavy upper back work as Travis suggested would be a good idea as well. One arm dumbell rows with a little bit of loose form. A guy with your strength should easily be handling the heaviest DB's that your gym has.

The hang cleans may help out a bit as well. They are a good movement for building upper back power.

Thanx Tom for the advice im definately gonna do the dumbells and some straight weight barbell rows ill check out the hang cleans also.Thanx for your help ill keep you posted on how i do

Travis Bell
05-29-2009, 04:43 PM
I would probably wager Erik could pull 410 with spotless form as well.

Just sayin is all :)

MarcusWild
05-29-2009, 05:07 PM
Buy some chucks to deadlift in and see if that helps. That or deadlift barefoot and see.

Erik 23
05-29-2009, 09:59 PM
when i pull with proper form and an arched back and w/e i stall on the floor. if iget it past the floor i can lock it out. if i pull it with my regular max out form i have to grind out the lockout and ican pull about 50 pounds more than i can lockout. i never hitch or ramp though just good old fashion grinding.
although whats weird is it looks like im using a lot of energy off from the floor in this video.
HPo7hoUrTvA&feature=channel_page
Not sure if this video is meant to help me but okay thanx for posting.


I would probably wager Erik could pull 410 with spotless form as well.

Just sayin is all :)

ROFLLLL Thanx Travis im pretty sure i could also


Buy some chucks to deadlift in and see if that helps. That or deadlift barefoot and see.

Thanx but that dosent change my form i have chucks and use them from time to time, what i have is a muscle inbalance im thinking its my hips thanx for the advice though.

Travis Bell
05-29-2009, 10:24 PM
well i posted the video to show you that sometimes a bad lockout could just be due to not using enough leg drive. id say my back is very strong yet i have a weak lockout on max attempts doesnt make sense does it? well yes it does make sense. i am not using enough leg drive. when i arch my back hard and use more leg drive i fail off the floor. i realize 410 isnt an incredible weight but thats noreason to make fun of me either lols.

No.

Leg drive is what normally will get it off the floor. Upper back, lats and hips (mostly hips) is what's going to lock it out.

Erik 23
05-29-2009, 10:32 PM
well i posted the video to show you that sometimes a bad lockout could just be due to not using enough leg drive. id say my back is very strong yet i have a weak lockout on max attempts doesnt make sense does it? well yes it does make sense. i am not using enough leg drive. when i arch my back hard and use more leg drive i fail off the floor. i realize 410 isnt an incredible weight but thats noreason to make fun of me either lols.

Hey man Thanx for the posts no i was asking cause you didnt really give me any tips i thought you were just posting the video not making fun of you either Thats not a bad lift man.

No.

Leg drive is what normally will get it off the floor. Upper back, lats and hips (mostly hips) is what's going to lock it out.

And Thanx Travis this is what i was trying to get at i needed to know exactly what muscles specifically are used in lockout i knew it was upper back i wasnt sure how much hips play a role.But now i think ima focus mainly on my hip strength mainly i guess box squats or something as i know there great for hip strength.

Big_Byrd52
05-31-2009, 12:37 PM
No.

Leg drive is what normally will get it off the floor. Upper back, lats and hips (mostly hips) is what's going to lock it out.

well what advise u got for my farked up DL lock out?! haha i think i even stumped Louie on that one!

SGT ROCK
06-02-2009, 01:02 PM
Place the weight on top of wooden blocks so it is a few inches BELOW the knee cap. Also HEAVY CORE AND HAMSTRING work, to the tune of GHRS, REV HYPERS, SSB GMS, HEAVY STANDING WEIGHTED ABS, and HEAVY SLDLs to name a few.

Semper Fi

Travis Bell
06-02-2009, 01:08 PM
well what advise u got for my farked up DL lock out?! haha i think i even stumped Louie on that one!

LOL I know! That was the craziest dead I have seen! You just ripped it to like 2" from lockout and then it stopped dead.

I wondered a couple of things

- do you think maybe your suit was too tight, not allowing you to squeeze your glutes and push your hips into lockout

or

- have you tried doing ultra wide stance stiff legged deads (like toes almost to the plates)?

MarcusWild
06-02-2009, 02:02 PM
The straps can make it hard to lockout. An under amror shirts will let the straps slide at the top and help lockout.

Erik 23
06-02-2009, 04:20 PM
Place the weight on top of wooden blocks so it is a few inches BELOW the knee cap. Also HEAVY CORE AND HAMSTRING work, to the tune of GHRS, REV HYPERS, SSB GMS, HEAVY STANDING WEIGHTED ABS, and HEAVY SLDLs to name a few.
Thanx Sgt Rock I dont have access to a Reverse Hyper But ill keep the rest in mind The Sldls might really help ill try them you do these for a max effort or just for reps? thanx for the advice Rock
Semper Fi


well what advise u got for my farked up DL lock out?! haha i think i even stumped Louie on that one!

Lol good to have you posting in here Sam

Big_Byrd52
06-03-2009, 08:09 AM
LOL I know! That was the craziest dead I have seen! You just ripped it to like 2" from lockout and then it stopped dead.

I wondered a couple of things

- do you think maybe your suit was too tight, not allowing you to squeeze your glutes and push your hips into lockout

or

- have you tried doing ultra wide stance stiff legged deads (like toes almost to the plates)?

Does the same thing on my raw pulls both conv and sumo also. have done some wide sldl but not often and not that wide.

SGT ROCK
06-04-2009, 06:14 AM
ONe more thing to add here, as I had a lockout issue for nearly a decade, maybe more. SPEED OFF THE DECK will effect lockout. Sometimes if one gets STONED above the knees, the bar abruptly stops it appears they have a lockout issue, it may be LACK OF BAR SPEED OR POSITIONING.

Semper Fi

SELK
06-04-2009, 09:33 AM
Byrd - ive had the same problem with conventional and sumo pulls. For the sumo, my hips where tight and in order to get in a better position I have to actually point my toes slightly more forward rather then to the sides.

I still have a ****ty lockout, but this helped.

Big_Byrd52
06-04-2009, 09:37 AM
Byrd - ive had the same problem with conventional and sumo pulls. For the sumo, my hips where tight and in order to get in a better position I have to actually point my toes slightly more forward rather then to the sides.

I still have a ****ty lockout, but this helped.

thanks ill try that. i am also doing alot of stretching the hips and hams, and going to try to pull in oly shoes, and also with toes on a 5lb plate to see if this changes my leverages any. i think its a problem of using too much quad power and getting on my toes which doesnt allow me to throw hips through at the top. Who knows... im still grasping at straws.

Erik 23
06-08-2009, 01:28 PM
ONe more thing to add here, as I had a lockout issue for nearly a decade, maybe more. SPEED OFF THE DECK will effect lockout. Sometimes if one gets STONED above the knees, the bar abruptly stops it appears they have a lockout issue, it may be LACK OF BAR SPEED OR POSITIONING.

Semper Fi

Yeah im pretty fast off the floor then i tend to stall out above the knees, but i recently changed my feet placement and that seemed to help a lot so the positioning is very important.

JasonLift
06-08-2009, 03:45 PM
Yeah im pretty fast off the floor then i tend to stall out above the knees, but i recently changed my feet placement and that seemed to help a lot so the positioning is very important.

I have the exact same issue. How did you change your foot placement?

Erik 23
06-08-2009, 04:39 PM
I have the exact same issue. How did you change your foot placement?

Oh i just widened it out to about shoulder width apart, and the weight went up a lot easier, I really didnt have to hitch or anything.

When i take my normal stance i must've been like too close because everything even warmup sets id just about have to hitch.

But now that i widened out my feet a little like i said about shoulder width or maybe a inch or two past shoulder witdh now it feels like im throwing my hips in there with my original floor speed, which is getting me to my lockout before i even begin to hitch.