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slashkills
05-30-2009, 08:58 AM
i have been following westside since january and i dont think DE has helped me. I want to replace DE squat with a light squat/back day. Or maybe make it my one day for ME deadlift so i have two different days a week for ME squat and ME deadlift. What do you guys think?

Travis Bell
05-30-2009, 09:17 AM
Two ME lower days a week??

Yeesh, I won't even get started on that one.

If DE work isn't helping, you're probably not doing it right

Your DE day should already be light so I don't know how replacing it with a light squat day is going to make any difference

slashkills
05-30-2009, 10:02 AM
By light day i mean like a rep day or just working up to like 60-70% of my max for reps or something. Ive seen others do two lower ME workouts a week like this
Mon-ME squat/speed deads
Wed-ME bench
Fri-ME deads/DE squats
Sat-DE bench

I just wont be doing DE. Joe Defranco doesnt do DE work for his skinny bastards because he says they arent strong enough yet and they dont have enough muscle mass yet. Ive seen others say the same thing. I know you are a huge westside guy and for good reasons. But maybe im not strong enough for DE work? Maybe rep days like in ws4sb could be more beneficial?

My DE squat workouts looked like this
parallel or slightly above box squats w/ 50-60% of my 1rm for 8 or so sets of two reps.
speed deads-i skipped these often
hamstring/posterior chain exercise
other exercise my choice often another posterior chain exercise or a unilateral movement.

MarcusWild
05-30-2009, 10:12 AM
Are you doing DE with bands or chains? If not then your percentages should be higher anyway.

slashkills
05-30-2009, 10:22 AM
I have been using bands on and off the past two months or so.

Cmanuel
05-30-2009, 12:06 PM
What did you do prior to January and why did you switch to westside?

slashkills
05-30-2009, 12:43 PM
I was following the schools program which was
mon-bench squat both to 1rm
tue-deadlift and powerclean to 1rm
wed-box squat and board press to 1rm
thur-accessory work

That didnt help me much at all. I added roughly 15lbs to my bench in 3 months. And it did very little for my deadlift and squat also. I switched to westside cause all the strong guys where doing it and i heard good things about it.

My numbers are going up now and im getting stronger and and more powerfull but i dont feel like DE is whats doing it. So ive been thinking about cutting it out for awhile and seeing how it goes.

Sean S
05-30-2009, 01:38 PM
If you are getting stronger, then the program is working and making any major changes could compromise that. You're also not doing your speed pulls on a regular basis, so you should probably be doing these regularly to get the program to work as it should. If you are using that low a percentage for squats, you might also consider doing more sets (10-12 instead of 8).
Don't take this the wrong way, but based on your stats I don't know if you're really experienced enough to say the DE portion of the program "isn't working" even though your overall strength is going up. My suggestion would be to keep doing the program and tweak some things like adjusting the %'s, doing speed pulls, adjusting number of sets, working up every 3-5 weeks, etc....

MarcusWild
05-30-2009, 01:56 PM
What's your DE squat day look like? What are you sets/reps, bar weight, band tension, etc? DE day is about speed, technique, and volume. Your volume should be double what your ME day volume is. I increased my volume on DE day, and it really helped. You can also work up the last 2-3 sets every other week, so you get a little heavier work in too.

Travis Bell
05-30-2009, 02:38 PM
This would be one thing I would disagree with DeFranco on.

You just need to make sure you are getting enough time under the bar.

It really has not so much to do with me being loyal to my gym (westside) more so as what I feel works best.

I feel DE work is best for getting explosivness

However, I do modify it a little for my smaller guys. Usually I have them hit triples instead of doubles and use less band tension and more bar weight. I also make them go below parallel.

Drop those power cleans. Just don't even do them.

What you can do to mix it up is throw in a Repeated Effort day, which would be somewhat like what you're talking about with a rep day, but don't drop DE work all together. You need speed as well as size.

On your ME day, spend time working up to heavy triples instead of always hitting a single.

Hazerboy
05-30-2009, 02:43 PM
First I'm going to ask you what your best 1RM squat is.

Honestly, this should be a prerequisite for posts asking for help. advice for this post would vary wildly, for instance, for someone who has a 200 lb squat, vs. a 500 lb squat.

Anyways, DE squats perform more of a function than just working on speed - they also provide more actual squat volume throughout the week. Most intermediate to advanced lifters, for instance, simply cannot squat heavy twice a week- Its just to much. DE squats, then, allow you to get in more squat work throughout the week (in effect, greasing the groove) without burning yourself out. Squatting off a box for DE squats also help for this -- I know for a fact that I get waaay less sore from box squats.

In this sense, then, everyone can benefit from a DE day even if your actual rep range and speed sucks on them. As long as your form is on, and you're not using too heavy of a load, the simple fact that you're squatting twice a week should help your squat. This is how greasing the groove works.

Not everyone implements DE squat work though, even if they use west side principles. Someone can correct me on this, but I'm pretty sure metal militia doesn't use any speed benching and they've produced some pretty strong benchers, though they do use lots of board work/heavy bands and chains. I know matt Rhodes isn't a fan of it for his squat work. For me personally I only throw in some speed work once every few weeks, and I've found that I never really slow down - actually, now that I think about it, about every DE session (about every 3-4 weeks) I'm throwing on more weight and moving it faster than in the past.

But I'm not very strong, so take that with a grain of salt XD

So yeah. I would ask you why you don't think its working in the first place. Are your lifts going up? If so, - or even if not - how can you blame it on your DE work? How do you know for sure that thats what the problem is, and its not your diet, your recovery, your form, or one of the many hundred other variables?

Also, what other routines have you tried in the past? Have you all but exhausted the benefits from linear progression (basic rep work)? I feel like most beginners should do this before attacking westside. I may get some flack for this, but seriously think about it - just about EVERYONE got their basic strength on some sort of rep work before moving to DE/ME days.

Hazerboy
05-30-2009, 02:46 PM
What you can do to mix it up is throw in a Repeated Effort day, which would be somewhat like what you're talking about with a rep day, but don't drop DE work all together. You need speed as well as size.

On your ME day, spend time working up to heavy triples instead of always hitting a single.

This is also excellent advice by the way with regards to modifying west side for beginners.

Also, question for travis: what are the basic strength levels of some of the weaker guys you train?

slashkills
05-30-2009, 04:21 PM
First I'm going to ask you what your best 1RM squat is. 235lbsx1

In this sense, then, everyone can benefit from a DE day even if your actual rep range and speed sucks on them. As long as your form is on, and you're not using too heavy of a load, the simple fact that you're squatting twice a week should help your squat. This is how greasing the groove works.

I dont feel DE squats are helping with my speed on my squat. Thats why instead of only squatting once a week i want to do a rep day. More volume and time to practice form.




So yeah. I would ask you why you don't think its working in the first place. Are your lifts going up? If so, - or even if not - how can you blame it on your DE work? How do you know for sure that thats what the problem is, and its not your diet, your recovery, your form, or one of the many hundred other variables?

my lifts are going up but i dont feel like DE squats are doing anything for me. How do i know if there is something better though for me if i dont try.

Also, what other routines have you tried in the past? Have you all but exhausted the benefits from linear progression (basic rep work)? I feel like most beginners should do this before attacking westside. I may get some flack for this, but seriously think about it - just about EVERYONE got their basic strength on some sort of rep work before moving to DE/ME days.

I followed the schools routine which i posted earlier in the thread.




Comments in red

slashkills
05-30-2009, 04:25 PM
This would be one thing I would disagree with DeFranco on.

You just need to make sure you are getting enough time under the bar.

It really has not so much to do with me being loyal to my gym (westside) more so as what I feel works best.

I feel DE work is best for getting explosivness

However, I do modify it a little for my smaller guys. Usually I have them hit triples instead of doubles and use less band tension and more bar weight. I also make them go below parallel.

Drop those power cleans. Just don't even do them.

What you can do to mix it up is throw in a Repeated Effort day, which would be somewhat like what you're talking about with a rep day, but don't drop DE work all together. You need speed as well as size.

On your ME day, spend time working up to heavy triples instead of always hitting a single.

Ive been following westside for months so the routine above isnt what im doing. Ive done powercleans maybe once or twice in 5 or so months and only as conditioning in an extra workout.

barbell01
05-30-2009, 07:17 PM
slashkills, you need to eat more food! your 5'8'' 155lbs. EAT MORE FOOD AND TRAIN HARD!

JK1
05-31-2009, 03:17 PM
slashkills, you need to eat more food! your 5'8'' 155lbs. EAT MORE FOOD AND TRAIN HARD!

Yup. Thats exactly what I was thinking.... When you are 155 lbs, you can't eat too much in one day. Get under the bar and bellup to the table. Theres work to be done.


I personally am a HUGE fan of the basic westside ME/DE template. I've made the best strength gains of my life with that training template. The one thing with DE box squats I've noticed is that I do think there is a small percentage of people who get absolutely nothing out of them. My wife is one. We struggled with box squats with her for a long time. She did have a knee injury during that time which didn't help things, but she'd go down, sit on the box and was literallly glued there. It seemed to be more of a balance issue than one of basic strength.

When we switched her to regular squats, pausing in the bottom position, her squat strength seemed to take off. So now on her DE days, she does her squats this way. So far it seems to be working for her.