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Virtron
06-14-2009, 04:01 PM
Hey guys...

I'm sure this is a typical problem, but I'm coming off really slow off the floor on my deadlift. whats up with that?

Jeff Garvin
06-14-2009, 04:05 PM
Low back....try deadlifting on a elevated surface like off a raise platform or stand on 45lbs plates.

Virtron
06-14-2009, 04:20 PM
Low back....try deadlifting on a elevated surface like off a raise platform or stand on 45lbs plates.

Definitely gonna try that... you think it might have anything to do with shoes that aren't flat? I got sneakers that have a heel.

Lones Green
06-14-2009, 05:20 PM
Definitely gonna try that... you think it might have anything to do with shoes that aren't flat? I got sneakers that have a heel.

Get some flat soled shoes for sure...the shoes with the heel will put you on your toes from the start, which is not good

Jeff Garvin
06-14-2009, 05:27 PM
Definitely gonna try that... you think it might have anything to do with shoes that aren't flat? I got sneakers that have a heel.

Yea, get a pait of Chuck Taylors Converse! There about $40 and you will see a difference. That is not why your slow off the floor but it will help with deadlifting and squatting.

barbell01
06-14-2009, 06:00 PM
also lift your toes when you pull. and squat heavy

Virtron
06-14-2009, 08:01 PM
thanks guys... i got the chuck Ts... just was lazy today...

Brian Hopper
06-14-2009, 08:10 PM
You should do some speed pulls against bands or chains either off a plate or the floor. When you work with doing speed dont worry about alot of weight remember that it is to work speed.

Kenny Croxdale
06-15-2009, 09:44 AM
Hey guys...

I'm sure this is a typical problem, but I'm coming off really slow off the floor on my deadlift. whats up with that?

Virtron,

It depend on if you are performing a conventional or sumo deadlift. In a conventionl deadlift the muscle firing sequence is back-legs-back (Research McLaughlin).

So, if you are coming off the floor slow in a conventional deadlift, more lower back strength training is needed. Exercises like stiff (slight knee bend) deadlifts, deadlifts standing so that you pull the weight off your shoe tops, and good mornings will increase you strength off the bottom.

Functional isometrics is a great method for increasing your strength levels foer conventional and sumo deadlifts. This article goes into funtional isometrics. http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/violent_variations_iv_more_new_exercises

As Tank82 stated, "do some speed pulls against bands or chains either off a plate or the floor".

Another speed movement is to bounce the plates off the floor. This is a form of "overspeed training".

The firing sequence for a sumo deadlift is legs-back (Research McLaughlin). The sumo deadlift comes off the floor much slower vs the conventional deadlift.

To increase you strength off the floor in a sumo deadlift usually means you need work you legs more. Exercises that work well for increasing a sumo deadlifts pull off the floor are quater squats.

Position the bar in a power rack so that when you squat down, you about at the same height you would be when pulling off the floor. Then squat the weights off the pin.

Another exericise is perfomring sumo deadlifts off you shoe tops (standing some plates)

Belt Squat with a sumo deadlift is a great exericse. It allows you to overload the legs.

Some speed work is a good idea as well.

Kenny Croxdale

chris mason
06-15-2009, 11:14 AM
Kenny, your research, or at least your interpretation of the reseach, is bad. If you are relatively weak off the floor with conventional deads it is leg drive that is the problem.

I am going to give Louie a plug with his Westside Zercher harness which I have personally used in my training as of late and it has helped nicely. Here is a link: http://www.westside-barbell.com/lous-equipment/zercher-harness/

What I do is use the upper hooks for performing a partial front squat in which I try to mimic the ROM of the legs during the conventional deadlift. I lower the bar to the safety catches which are set at the desired height, then I let it come to a complete rest prior to pressing back to a standing. This has made a big difference in my own deadlift training and my weakness is off the floor.

Chris

MarcusWild
06-15-2009, 11:22 AM
I used to be weak off the floor when I started powerlifting. Then I started box squatting against bands. I haven't been weak off the floor since, and I deadlift conventional. I also think some of it is pure attitude when you deadlift.

chris mason
06-15-2009, 12:05 PM
You should do some speed pulls against bands or chains either off a plate or the floor. When you work with doing speed dont worry about alot of weight remember that it is to work speed.

I disagree, the load is lightened too much with speed or accomodating resistance movements. What would be the point in pulling something which is light (for you) in the ROM which is your weakness?

Deficit deadlifts and heavy partial squats will work best for weakness off the floor.

Jeff Garvin
06-15-2009, 12:21 PM
Kenny, your research, or at least your interpretation of the reseach, is bad. If you are relatively weak off the floor with conventional deads it is leg drive that is the problem.

I am going to give Louie a plug with his Westside Zercher harness which I have personally used in my training as of late and it has helped nicely. Here is a link: http://www.westside-barbell.com/lous-equipment/zercher-harness/

What I do is use the upper hooks for performing a partial front squat in which I try to mimic the ROM of the legs during the conventional deadlift. I lower the bar to the safety catches which are set at the desired height, then I let it come to a complete rest prior to pressing back to a standing. This has made a big difference in my own deadlift training and my weakness is off the floor.

Chris

Chris, what do you think the problem with be for a sumo deadlifter who is slow off the floor? You talked about only a conventional deadlifter.

evilxxx
06-15-2009, 02:40 PM
I disagree, the load is lightened too much with speed or accomodating resistance movements. What would be the point in pulling something which is light (for you) in the ROM which is your weakness?

Deficit deadlifts and heavy partial squats will work best for weakness off the floor.
Yup deficits have been working good for my speed off the floor.

chris mason
06-15-2009, 03:15 PM
Chris, what do you think the problem with be for a sumo deadlifter who is slow off the floor? You talked about only a conventional deadlifter.


A few possibilities, but hip strength would be my #1 thought. Now, my buddy Justin is a very good squatter and has good quad and hip strength, but still has trouble off the floor and he pulls sumo. Louie Simmons saw him pull this weekend and thinks he needs to strengthen his abs, so that is another consideration.

Virtron
06-15-2009, 05:30 PM
Kenny, your research, or at least your interpretation of the reseach, is bad. If you are relatively weak off the floor with conventional deads it is leg drive that is the problem.

I am going to give Louie a plug with his Westside Zercher harness which I have personally used in my training as of late and it has helped nicely. Here is a link: http://www.westside-barbell.com/lous-equipment/zercher-harness/

What I do is use the upper hooks for performing a partial front squat in which I try to mimic the ROM of the legs during the conventional deadlift. I lower the bar to the safety catches which are set at the desired height, then I let it come to a complete rest prior to pressing back to a standing. This has made a big difference in my own deadlift training and my weakness is off the floor.

Chris

Thanks... I had a feeling my legs werent explosive enough.

SELK
06-15-2009, 06:28 PM
Just basic deadlift training is going to improve your pull at your level.

Until you get to a bigger pull wouldn't worry about targeting a specific weakness in your pull, I would target the whole lift using the regular ROM. Special exercises are fantastic when you are a little more advanced but there is no reason you won't be able to improve your deadlift - by deadlifting. Just by using basic deadlift training ive gotten my pull to high 600s, and my girlfriend ive gotten to low 300s just by using basic deadlift training. I'm all for special exercises, but i don't think you really need anything advanced just yet.

robchris
06-15-2009, 08:59 PM
Just basic deadlift training is going to improve your pull at your level.

Until you get to a bigger pull wouldn't worry about targeting a specific weakness in your pull, I would target the whole lift using the regular ROM. Special exercises are fantastic when you are a little more advanced but there is no reason you won't be able to improve your deadlift - by deadlifting. Just by using basic deadlift training ive gotten my pull to high 600s, and my girlfriend ive gotten to low 300s just by using basic deadlift training. I'm all for special exercises, but i don't think you really need anything advanced just yet.

Ditto, what selk said.

Be patiant bro and the strength will come... BTW, check out Dave Tates DL article @ EliteFTS. "the dead zone" I think its in WWB articles too! Excellent article!

Kenny Croxdale
06-16-2009, 07:31 AM
Kenny, your research, or at least your interpretation of the reseach, is bad. If you are relatively weak off the floor with conventional deads it is leg drive that is the problem.

Chris,

While the legs play a role in breaking the weight off the floor in a conventional deadlift, the firing sequence is back-legs-back in the conventional deadlift. The lower back initially breaks the weight off the floor.

That is Dr Tom McLaughlin's documented research. McLaughlin is a PhD in biomechanics and a former powerlifter.

McLaughlin's is specific to powerlifters pulling heavy loads.

The deadlift pulling technique differences of powerlifter vs weightlifter was part of the UCLA's National Strenght and Conditioning Strength Training Seminar

Olympic Lifters performing the deadlift as a supplementary exercise should focus on driving the bar off the floor with the legs, rather that using the lower back. Another topic for another time.

Any information you can provide on you position would be appreaciated.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
06-16-2009, 07:34 AM
Just basic deadlift training is going to improve your pull at your level.

Until you get to a bigger pull wouldn't worry about targeting a specific weakness in your pull, I would target the whole lift using the regular ROM. Special exercises are fantastic when you are a little more advanced but there is no reason you won't be able to improve your deadlift - by deadlifting. Just by using basic deadlift training ive gotten my pull to high 600s, and my girlfriend ive gotten to low 300s just by using basic deadlift training. I'm all for special exercises, but i don't think you really need anything advanced just yet.

Selk,

Great answer.

Kenny Croxdale

Kiknskreem
06-16-2009, 07:59 AM
While the legs play a role in breaking the weight off the floor in a conventional deadlift, the firing sequence is back-legs-back in the conventional deadlift. The lower back initially breaks the weight off the floor.

That is Dr Tom McLaughlin's documented research. McLaughlin is a PhD in biomechanics and a former powerlifter.

"Back-legs-back"... these are lay terms for major groups of muscles, not a firing sequence that one would determine from EMG studies.

Conventional deads begin with knee extension, which is performed by the quads. The back doesn't break the weight from the floor, it doesn't even generate the force to move the bar, it contracts isometrically to transfer the forces developed in the hips/legs up the back, down the arms, to the bar.

Kiknskreem
06-16-2009, 08:12 AM
Any information you can provide on you position would be appreaciated.

Kenny Croxdale

http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/51-2006_AnalysisofDeadlift.pdf

Kenny Croxdale
06-16-2009, 08:18 AM
"Back-legs-back"... these are lay terms for major groups of muscles, not a firing sequence that one would determine from EMG studies.

Conventional deads begin with knee extension, which is performed by the quads. The back doesn't break the weight from the floor, it doesn't even generate the force to move the bar, it contracts isometrically to transfer the forces developed in the hips/legs up the back, down the arms, to the bar.

Kik,

I understand where you are coming from. That information has been touted forever. However, it is misinformation. McLaughlin's biomechanical research data showed that is not the case with powerlifters (a specific group).

Any disagreement you might have is with McLaughlin, a former powerlifter with a PhD in biomechanicsm, not me.

So, don't kill the messanger...:)

I simply present information (as other on the board). That information can be accept it, research it for youself to determine the validity of it or discard it.

Kenny Croxdale

Kiknskreem
06-16-2009, 08:23 AM
]Kik,

I understand where you are coming from. That information has been touted forever. However, it is misinformation. McLaughlin's biomechanical research data showed that is not the case with powerlifters (a specific group).

Any disagreement you might have is with McLaughlin, a former powerlifter with a PhD in biomechanicsm, not me.

Lol, well McLaughlin isn't here right now.

One need only look at the actions of the muscles in question to realize why its silly to say the low back breaks the bar off the floor. Whether you are a PL'er or Oly lifter does not change the role of the back in a deadlift.

You can see the mechanics of the lift explained in the article I posted. As well, I'd be interested in seeing the source you are referring to.

chris mason
06-16-2009, 09:09 AM
Chris,

While the legs play a role in breaking the weight off the floor in a conventional deadlift, the firing sequence is back-legs-back in the conventional deadlift. The lower back initially breaks the weight off the floor.

That is Dr Tom McLaughlin's documented research. McLaughlin is a PhD in biomechanics and a former powerlifter.

McLaughlin's is specific to powerlifters pulling heavy loads.

The deadlift pulling technique differences of powerlifter vs weightlifter was part of the UCLA's National Strenght and Conditioning Strength Training Seminar

Olympic Lifters performing the deadlift as a supplementary exercise should focus on driving the bar off the floor with the legs, rather that using the lower back. Another topic for another time.

Any information you can provide on you position would be appreaciated.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny, it is possible the firing sequence is what you have stated. With that said, you are inferring a conclusion from data provided which may not be valid. The fact the back fires first (if indeed it is a fact) does not necessarily indicate it is the prime mover to initiate the pull. How quickly does the transfer from back to legs occur? Is it on the order of milliseconds? It would make sense to me that the back would fire first as it must be secured prior to attempting a pull and then it will be involved in the pull from the beginning for obvious reasons. Firing sequence of muscle groups does not indicate percentage involvement of a muscle group in the movement at any particular point in the ROM.

Chris

chris mason
06-16-2009, 09:18 AM
Kik,

I understand where you are coming from. That information has been touted forever. However, it is misinformation. McLaughlin's biomechanical research data showed that is not the case with powerlifters (a specific group).

Any disagreement you might have is with McLaughlin, a former powerlifter with a PhD in biomechanicsm, not me.

So, don't kill the messanger...:)

I simply present information (as other on the board). That information can be accept it, research it for youself to determine the validity of it or discard it.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny, the problem is that I have seen you present your interpretation of data and theories and it is often an incorrect one.

Virtron
06-16-2009, 11:02 AM
"have patience" I've been hearing that a lot. lol. Maybe one day I'll learn to have it. Thanks again.

Ben Moore
06-16-2009, 11:55 AM
Kenny, the problem is that I have seen you present your interpretation of data and theories and it is often an incorrect one.

Finally someone else is noticing...:hello:

JSully
06-17-2009, 03:48 PM
Kenny, it is possible the firing sequence is what you have stated. With that said, you are inferring a conclusion from data provided which may not be valid. The fact the back fires first (if indeed it is a fact) does not necessarily indicate it is the prime mover to initiate the pull. How quickly does the transfer from back to legs occur? Is it on the order of milliseconds? It would make sense to me that the back would fire first as it must be secured prior to attempting a pull and then it will be involved in the pull from the beginning for obvious reasons. Firing sequence of muscle groups does not indicate percentage involvement of a muscle group in the movement at any particular point in the ROM.

Chris

I agree with Kenny, however, I agree with Chris as well.. weird stance eh?

On one hand, a conventional deadlift begins with the legs (quads), extending upwards to approx mid-shin and then transfers to your posterior (hams/glutes/erectors) for the lockout..

On the other hand, you can also argue that it begins with your back because without a strong enough lower back, you can't stay rigid enough to use your legs and it becomes and entire low back/posterior exercise, which is what is perceived as by being slow off the floor (for me at least).


IMO, it begins with your back. My weakness is still coming off of the floor as it always has been and I've got a 550 squat.. however, it's not as bad as it used to be. I used to get down in my conventional stance and be completely rigid up until about 365-400 until the transfer to posterior and lowback. Anything above that my legs would extend and my ass would go up, while only moving the weight 3" off the ground then it would be entirely posterior and back.. Upon adding heavy SLDL and GMs to my training, it has helped me keep my back rigid while coming off the floor. Not as rigid as I'd like because I'm still working on it, but I'm getting it caught up to where it needs to be.

barbell01
06-17-2009, 05:44 PM
lets build some rockets

Jesse Hernandez
06-17-2009, 06:52 PM
lets build some rockets

hahal......LETS

Kiknskreem
06-18-2009, 07:15 AM
On one hand, a conventional deadlift begins with the legs (quads), extending upwards to approx mid-shin and then transfers to your posterior (hams/glutes/erectors) for the lockout..

On the other hand, you can also argue that it begins with your back because without a strong enough lower back, you can't stay rigid enough to use your legs and it becomes and entire low back/posterior exercise, which is what is perceived as by being slow off the floor (for me at least).


IMO, it begins with your back...

Whether or not the back literally contracts first (which is likely, since a core to extremity motor pattern is what you expect to see) is besides the point, the force that moves the bar is knee extension.

The lower back does not break the bar from the floor.

JSully
06-18-2009, 10:00 AM
Whether or not the back literally contracts first (which is likely, since a core to extremity motor pattern is what you expect to see) is besides the point, the force that moves the bar is knee extension.

The lower back does not break the bar from the floor.

I 100% agree, extension is what breaks the bar from the floor, regardless of what actually contracts first..

BUT, where people refer to being "slow off the floor" (my interpretation at least) is the entire first 6" of the pull until the transfer to your posterior. When I refer to being slow off the floor, I'm meaning that once I hit that 2-3" mark off the floor, my ass swings up and it becomes a SLDL.. UNTIL I started training heavy SLDLs and GMs.. this has allowed me to keep my back alot more rigid for the entire bottom half of the lift until the transfer to posterior... to an extent at least, I've still got a bit of work to do.

So, I guess quarter squats and zerchers would help to assist in strength from breaking the plane and then heavy GMS and SLDLS to keep the back rigid until the hip drive begins..

Travis Bell
06-18-2009, 10:04 AM
Kenny, the problem is that I have seen you present your interpretation of data and theories and it is often an incorrect one.

I agree with this.

The other thing I notice Kenny is that you rarely if ever speak from personal experience, rather you just list a bunch of studies and call it good.

I know you do in fact train or at least have in the past, but simply posting study after study is not nearly as informative as being able to clearly and concisely explain what in your personal experience has worked well and why it has worked.

Kenny Croxdale
06-18-2009, 09:52 PM
I agree with this.

The other thing I notice Kenny is that you rarely if ever speak from personal experience, rather you just list a bunch of studies and call it good.

Travis, much of the information that I provide is scientific based. That information is based on my personal training experices, as well. I can certainly add more of my personal exerience in if that what you like.


I know you do in fact train or at least have in the past, but simply posting study after study is not nearly as informative as being able to clearly and concisely explain what in your personal experience has worked well and why it has worked.

Good enough. Let me provide some of my personal experinece. My best deadlift at 208 lbs is a 617 lb deadlift. Based on the data that I have proved, I increased my deadlift from 540 lbs to 595 in a year by not training the deadlift.

I have written some personal information in this in the past. I wrote The No Deadlift Deadlift Training article that appeared in the Powerlifting USA was primarily about my results (and others) who focused on increasing lower back strength and power as a means of increasing my and theirs deadlift and others.
http://www.liftinglarge.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=20

The no deadlift training article is based on what I learned from primarily Bill Starr's and Loren Betz approach to deadlifting. Simmons often has quoted information from Starr.

I also quote Simmons in the article and identify some of the exercise he recommneds.

I go into Starr's personal recommended dynamic power movements that I have personally found to be effective in increasing pulling power in the deadlift. I then back that personal information up with data from Garhammer.

I provide training data that I have personally found works, for myself an others. From now on I will add my what personally worked for me, as and some other that I have worked with in the past.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
06-19-2009, 04:41 AM
Kenny, the problem is that I have seen you present your interpretation of data and theories and it is often an incorrect one.

Chris,

That a very vague statement. Precisely what?

Kenny Croxdale

robchris
06-21-2009, 03:17 PM
Kenny,

Read your entire article and I must say its a very interesting read!

This defineatly flys in the face of what Ive been taught over the years, as I have always pulled almost every week.

How often do you pull or are you saying you only DL @ meets???:confused:

Also, I have used (Kettlebells) extensively in the past and I really felt they improved my speed off the floor... They are very explosive in nature, so I don't doubt what you're saying. Have you every used KB's?

Thx.
RC

Kenny Croxdale
06-25-2009, 07:25 AM
QUOTE=robchris;2162010]Kenny,

Read your entire article and I must say its a very interesting read![/QUOTE]

Rob,

Glad you enjoyed the article. The article is primarily based on Bill Starr's and Loren Betzer's "no deadlift" approch to deadlifting. As the article notes, I increased my deadlift from 540 lbs to 595 lbs. After I wrote the article, I increased my deadlift to 617 lbs.


This defineatly flys in the face of what Ive been taught over the years, as I have always pulled almost every week.

The lower back is easily overtrained. I found that to be true with me and most lifters. McLaughlin cautioned that the lower back is easily overtrained.

Simmons stated much the same in his remark about the deadlift, "Why do something that takes back more than it gives"? Dave Tate also cautioned about working the deadlift too much.

So, how often you deadlift depends on how fast your lower back recovers.

Two lifters that I worked with are Mike Tronski and Phil Rivera. Rivera put 40 lbs on his deadlift by only deadlifting once a month. Phil would perform good morning and Olympic pulls once a week for his deadlift training.

Mike Tronski limits his deadlift sessions to once every two to three weeks, dependent on how his lower back is fealing.

Chip McCain (of the 1980s best deadlifters/powerlifters) limited would deadlift progressive increase his deadlift every two week. On his off week he would perform light deadlifts.

In talking to McCain, I ask him what training percentage he used for his light deadlift week. McCain stated that he went by how it felt. The light week was used for rehab work, to pump blood into the area. The focus of a light week was ONLY on restoration and preparing for the next week, a progressively heavier deadlift.


How often do you pull or are you saying you only DL @ meets???:confused:

I never deadlift until I get to a meet. I haven't performed any regular deadlifts in training since 1998. My deadlift training revolves around heavy good mornings, Olympic pulls and heavy rows.

I transitioned into the no deadlift training program with rack deadlifts from my sticking point and Olympic pulls. However, rack pulls were beating my lower back up just as much are regular deadlifts.

I then replaced the rack pulls with heavy good mornings. I've found for me and the other lifters that I worked with, heavy good mornings allowed you to work the lower back more often and without burning out my lower back.

I regret not showing my transition from deadlifts to rack pulls, and from rack pulls to good mornings. That would have made a bit more sense to most lifters than the "cold turkey", don't deadlift.

It's like when I told my son about how baby's are made. I didn't tell him about he birds and the bees. I skipped ahead too fast, to sex. After I told him about sex, he told me, "That NOT right"....lol

What I learned after writing the no deadlift article is that most lifters feel like the need to perform the deadlift in the gym to be able to deadlift at the meets. Whether or not that feeling is correct or not, it need to be addressed.

As Yogi Berra said, "90% of the game is half mental". That means the emotional need of an powerlifter/athele need to be taken into consideration along with the physical training needs.

With those lifters, we (the lifter and I) work togeher to find how often they need deadlift so that maximize the deadlift without overtraining their lower back.


Also, I have used (Kettlebells) extensively in the past and I really felt they improved my speed off the floor... They are very explosive in nature, so I don't doubt what you're saying. Have you every used KB's?

Thx.
RC

I use Kettlebells. They are a great training tool for increasing speed and power. I know KB's have helped other but I've never found they helped my deadlift.

Kenny Croxdale

Virtron
06-25-2009, 01:14 PM
Its funny because I just read this article... http://westside-barbell.com/westside-articles/articles2008/TheForgottenWeapon_oct08.pdf

What I get from it regarding form is that hamstrings and abs are really important so as to not wear out the lower back. Also, it seems like he's saying that form is dependent on body type. at least thats what i got from it.