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slashkills
06-21-2009, 05:59 PM
Im going to be doing mma classes in the fall and want to start getting in fighting shape and continue to get stronger. Im thinking im going to keep doing westside(modified for a newb). Then on off days hit the bag and do some high intensity training.

Then when classes start in the late fall im thinking that 3-4 days a week of mma classes will cover all my cardio/endurance needs and then hit the gym with a full body workout twice a week. Sound like a good plan?

Brian C
06-22-2009, 12:04 PM
Then when classes start in the late fall im thinking that 3-4 days a week of mma classes will cover all my cardio/endurance needs and then hit the gym with a full body workout twice a week. Sound like a good plan?

Sounds good but throw PLing out the window. Endurance and stamina will be you friend. Squatting and Benching in your routine is good at higher rep counts. DL is really not necessary. MMA is really addictive once you get into a ring the first time. I only fought twice,but it was the biggest rush ever. (1-1, knockout win, and arm bar loss). Im just too old now, so I went back to PLing. Ah..to be 15 yrs younger.......

brihead301
06-22-2009, 02:31 PM
That's what I'm doing. I do MMA classes 3 days a week, and I lift 3 days a week as well. I lost a ton of weight from the MMA, and yes you will get into GREAT SHAPE from it. All the sparring, bag work, circuit training, pylometrics, etc....really beat your a** (in a good way). Unfortunatly due to all the weight loss, I lost a lot of strength too in my squat and bench. Dead and OH press not so much...

Hazerboy
06-22-2009, 02:55 PM
Sounds good but throw PLing out the window. Endurance and stamina will be you friend. Squatting and Benching in your routine is good at higher rep counts. DL is really not necessary.

I don't agree with this. While your routine certainly shouldn't be *STRICT* westside, I think a variant will suit your purposes fine - something like what joe defranco is using for his athletes. Your weightlifting should still be focused on STRENGTH. There is definitely a law of diminishing returns for strength (if you're squatting 3x your bodyweight, for instance, you might wanna shift your focus on your conditioning or technique XD) it is still very important in the combat sports. IMO, you should save your conditioning for your off day, or for the mat. You only have so much time on your hands to be in the gym, and looking at your current numbers, it would be best spent getting your squat, bench, and deadlift numbers up.

Like my coach used to say, the best way to get in shape for wrestling... is to wrestle. I believe this is true for most sports.


And the deadlfit isn't nescessary?? Its the lift that has the most transfer to combat sports! What do you think a double leg takedown, or any other leg attack is? Essentially they're all a modified deadlift or GM! Out of all the lifts, you will notice a HUGE carryover from your deadlift to the mat, especially if you take a lot of shots. I remember the year my deadlift went from 250-300 lbs to a little over 400. When I came back for the season, I couldn't believe how easy it was to finish shots. I could lift and return for a double leg takedown on about just about everybody!

Even now, having not wrestled in two years, when I go home and hit up a practice session with my old team, I CREAM everyone for the first period. My technique sucks, but even for guys my own bodyweight my strength is on a different level. I can be sloppy about my set ups and shots and I'll still take everybody down (now, I'm pretty out of shape compared to the rest of 'em, so we won't take about the 2nd and 3rd periods...). Point being, if I had trained for high reps and thrown out the deadlift entirely for all of my grappling career, I wouldn't have this advantage.

slashkills
06-22-2009, 03:41 PM
That's what I'm doing. I do MMA classes 3 days a week, and I lift 3 days a week as well. I lost a ton of weight from the MMA, and yes you will get into GREAT SHAPE from it. All the sparring, bag work, circuit training, pylometrics, etc....really beat your a** (in a good way). Unfortunatly due to all the weight loss, I lost a lot of strength too in my squat and bench. Dead and OH press not so much...

what kind of routine are you doing?


Hazerboy-thats pretty much what im thinking im going to do right now.

Travis Bell
06-22-2009, 03:58 PM
full body workout probably won't do you justice, but you're what, a freshmen?

So you're going to be shooting for mma 3 days/week, lifting 2 days/week, football 5 days/week and school in there as well?

Slash I think you may be getting a little bit much on your plate buddy. :)

However, what HB said holds very true. I'd try and lift three days a week. Just be careful you don't complicate it too much. If you're serious about MMA you'll be spending a ton of time getting technique down. You won't quite be able to tap your strength completely until you have at least a basic foundation on the technique.

slashkills
06-22-2009, 04:30 PM
Im going to be doing mma after the football season. I think our season ends somewhere in october.

Travis Bell
06-22-2009, 06:07 PM
Im going to be doing mma after the football season. I think our season ends somewhere in october.

oh I gottcha. Up here football depends on how far you go past districts which can sometimes be in december before the season ends.

slashkills
06-22-2009, 07:04 PM
Thats varsity right? Our school has a freshman,sophomore, and varsity team. Only varsity gets play offs. Freshman and sophomore have a division within the school district and we could win that, but no play offs.

My freshman team last year won divison with a 6-0 record. our teams total record was 7-2. So I think we(this years sophomore team) should be pretty good this year.

Brian C
06-23-2009, 04:29 PM
Heavy deads are not necessary. Plyometric and speed work are whats necessary. I trained with Renso Gracie in his Philly gym, and weight training is not a priority. Technique and form is whats important. I was more of a power fighter, so I trained a little different(more weights), but I will never argue Gracie training. It all depends on what type of fighter you want to be.

Brian C
06-23-2009, 04:38 PM
In all honesty, if you have no experience fighting, find a reputable gym and follow the total program(weights included) that they recommend

Hazerboy
06-23-2009, 06:21 PM
Heavy deads are not necessary. Plyometric and speed work are whats necessary. I trained with Renso Gracie in his Philly gym, and weight training is not a priority. Technique and form is whats important. I was more of a power fighter, so I trained a little different(more weights), but I will never argue Gracie training. It all depends on what type of fighter you want to be.

I agree that technique and form is a huge priority. Like Travis said, you won't be able to "tap" into your strength until you know what you're doing.

But I'm also big believer that most sports gurus, whether it be volleyball, MMA, ju jitsu, boxing, track, etc, have a very little knowledge when it comes to strength training. This isn't a surprise. Strength training is in and of itself a sport. Its very difficult, then, to expect a coach to know a ton about the their own sport, AND the sport of strength. This is why I look at the routines of notable fighters with a bit of skepticism. I believe most of these guys are excellent fighters in spite of their routine, not because of it. This sort of thing has and already happens - defranco has listed on his website that he's gotten pro linebackers that can't squat 300 lbs.

I'm sure there are some fighters with some very well built routines out there, but I'm not really sure how you can advocate Plymotetric and speed work while saying that heavy deadlifts are out. They're two sides of the same coin - defranco utilizes both heavy box squats/deadlifts as well as body weight plyometrics, bands, and speed work to produce faster 40 times and higher verticals (essentially, speed and explosiveness!).

Anyways, Strength, IMO, is the most transferable skill you can train outside of the sparring room. For someone like you who has limited time--and pretty low numbers-- (again, we're not talking about the fighter who has a 3x bodyweight deadlift or squat here) I think its more beneficial than any high rep conditioning or circuit program most MMA gurus would have you do.

Not to suck Defrancos dick any more than I already have, have you read his Entry on "Dhani tackles the globe?" its a show where Dhani jones travels around the world, leans a new sport in a week, then competes in it (much like the history channel's "Human Weapon"). He held his own in the first two sports he competed in, and everybody said it was because he was so strong.

"O.K., you’re probably wondering what the hell the point is of this blog post, aren’t you? My point is, although there are many qualities an athlete must posses, strength truly does build the foundation for almost every sport! Literally every athlete, from every sport, from every country, knows and respects strength. Using Dhani as an example; if he was a skinny, weak, “athletic” type of guy; he would have gotten his ass kicked in both Muay Thai and Schwingen! His strength undoubtedly made up for his lack of technical skill and experience the past two weeks and you will see how it continues to help him throughout the season. No other single athletic quality carries over to so many different sports! "

http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask-joe.html?start=12

Brian C
06-23-2009, 06:56 PM
Thanks for the link Hazer. Ill definitely check it out. There so many ways to train, right and wrong ways, and it comes down to what suits you best. I don't want to come off as an opponent against strength training since I was a strength fighter. But I know many a fighters that don't touch iron and dominate the sport. I think your right in your thinking Hazer. Its just not the only way. Sorry OP for straying

Hazerboy
06-23-2009, 07:02 PM
But I know many a fighters that don't touch iron and dominate the sport.

Thats kind of what I was addressing. I've always wondered what would happen to these guys if they focused on some traditional strength training techniques.

slashkills
06-23-2009, 08:09 PM
Wow, thanks for the detailed responses guys. The way im looking at is strength training is a must especially since im weak still. Like some of you said, if i can lift 3x my body weight then it shouldnt be a main focus but being im weak and have never done any fighting or training for it then i think strength will be a big factor in my first match when it comes.

Brian C- im not sure still why your saying no deadlifts. For some one as weak as me my take downs will most be all a strength thing and very little technique. Again im not positive cause i never done any of this before, but deadlifts seem to be very important. I am going to have to add more plyometrics and speed/agility work into my routine though. I think defranco's routine would be real good for me.

d0rkyd00d
06-23-2009, 08:52 PM
Would now be a bad time to bring up Bruce Lee?

slashkills
06-23-2009, 09:52 PM
who?

d0rkyd00d
06-24-2009, 02:36 PM
The only reason I bring up Bruce is because I know he was different than a lot of his teachers due to the stress he placed on strength training. I don't know how he'd stack up to MMA fighters now-a-days, but in my mind he truly understood the mind/body connection, and really putting all the various factors together.

d0rkyd00d
06-24-2009, 02:47 PM
http://www.mikementzer.com/blee.html

Lots of stuff on the web about it, but there's one article.

Brian C
06-25-2009, 11:55 AM
Wow, thanks for the detailed responses guys. The way im looking at is strength training is a must especially since im weak still. Like some of you said, if i can lift 3x my body weight then it shouldnt be a main focus but being im weak and have never done any fighting or training for it then i think strength will be a big factor in my first match when it comes.

Brian C- im not sure still why your saying no deadlifts. For some one as weak as me my take downs will most be all a strength thing and very little technique. Again im not positive cause i never done any of this before, but deadlifts seem to be very important. I am going to have to add more plyometrics and speed/agility work into my routine though. I think defranco's routine would be real good for me.

Sorry slash. I guess I answered without taking in account your strength capabilities. I do think you should continue to strength train, but find a trainer that fits your needs. Good luck and I hope to hear about some stunning wins under your belt in the future:thumbup:

slashkills
06-25-2009, 03:01 PM
Sorry slash. I guess I answered without taking in account your strength capabilities. I do think you should continue to strength train, but find a trainer that fits your needs. Good luck and I hope to hear about some stunning wins under your belt in the future:thumbup:

Thanks, you can count on it.

brihead301
06-26-2009, 07:43 AM
what kind of routine are you doing?


Hazerboy-thats pretty much what im thinking im going to do right now.

Check out my journal.

Although I agree 100% that endurance, stamina, speed, and especially technique are the most important aspects to learning MMA, I still would never neglect having a decent base of strength. Even though I'm weaker now, and I'm not constantly hitting new PR's, I still like to push myself to squat, deadlift, OH press, and power clean as heavy as possible. For assistance, the basic pull-ups, chin-ups, DB work, rows, dips, etc.... are all still in there.

Bascially, as long as you know that your conditioning and technique come first, I think that strength training can only help you. I'd never throw out the strength stuff. If at very least, a strong body is harder to injure. But it also comes in handy when you're on the ground wrestling with someone, and you can just over power them because....well you're strong. Even without knowing wrestling/jujitsu technique that well, I can still manhandle most of my opponents, because I'm strong relative to them.

Lones Green
06-26-2009, 08:00 AM
The MMA guys at my gym are always deadlifting, I've never seen em squat or bench.

Just an observation haha

KarlMarx
06-28-2009, 04:51 PM
I love lifting and I go 4x a week but I know hands down that conditioning would be much better for my MMA, jiujistu, and Muay Thai. I lift because I love it, not because I am under the illusion that it is what my martial arts needs. Until you are at a very high level the easiest way to improve is through gaining skill and not muscle. Its just like lifting: at first you make great gains--I would focus on technique and then on conditioning. Conditioning will let you stay sharper and hang in their longer so that you can practice more and absorb more when you do.

Moreover, at lower levels of skill I would say that strength hinders most people--they just whomp the other noobs with strength. Slowly the weak people get good and start smoking them and all the lifter learned was 'smash!'--I say this with love in my heart for meatheads but having trained JJ and BJJ for 15 years I'm pretty confident that its true.

slashkills
06-28-2009, 06:52 PM
I love lifting and I go 4x a week but I know hands down that conditioning would be much better for my MMA, jiujistu, and Muay Thai. I lift because I love it, not because I am under the illusion that it is what my martial arts needs. Until you are at a very high level the easiest way to improve is through gaining skill and not muscle. Its just like lifting: at first you make great gains--I would focus on technique and then on conditioning. Conditioning will let you stay sharper and hang in their longer so that you can practice more and absorb more when you do.

Moreover, at lower levels of skill I would say that strength hinders most people--they just whomp the other noobs with strength. Slowly the weak people get good and start smoking them and all the lifter learned was 'smash!'--I say this with love in my heart for meatheads but having trained JJ and BJJ for 15 years I'm pretty confident that its true.

This doesnt have to be true if you train the right way. With enough skill training/endurance training coupled with enough strength training would make an awesome fighter.

KarlMarx
06-28-2009, 07:07 PM
Sure it doesn't have to be true, I agree. Some of the elite MMA folks and jiujitsu have had a strong strength base from the start (vis. college wrestlers like Jake Shields) but for most people I think the temptation is too strong just to muscle instead of try a new move that probably wont work at first. Not a rule just too tempting for most--everybody wants to win and so muscle _can_ come at the expense of technique.

slashkills
06-28-2009, 07:59 PM
I do feel i will be a strength fighter for a while. But i will be trying my hardest to bring up my technique and skill. I will definitely have to keep my priorities straight in my training.

brihead301
06-29-2009, 06:56 AM
It's funny, I completely agree that it's ALL technique. While I may be stronger then some of the guys in my class, I don't even think about it that way. I focus on technique 100%.

That being said, if 2 guys went up against each other, and each had identical skill level and conditioning, the stronger one would have the advantage. Basically, strength isn't what's going to make a good martial artist, technique and conditioning is. But add strength on top of skills, and you have just one more advantage!

blackboard
06-29-2009, 08:20 AM
That being said, if 2 guys went up against each other, and each had identical skill level and conditioning, the stronger one would have the advantage. Basically, strength isn't what's going to make a good martial artist, technique and conditioning is. But add strength on top of skills, and you have just one more advantage!

Not really because the weaker guy could be faster and overall more athletic. Strength is awesome to have no doubt but "weight room" strength is overrated on the mat. This reminds me of football. Some guys can bench and squat the house but aren't good at anything on the field. While others aren't weight room strong but they will run you over on the field.

The most important starting attribute to have if you threw out technique and conditioning is natural athletic ability in my opinion. Its like the ultimate translator or transmission for speed, strength, coordination etc.


Basically this leads to some being able to toss everyone on the mat while others of the same "weight room" strength level not being able to do so.

Priest
06-29-2009, 08:26 AM
I train at warriors cove in minnesota just to keep my bodyweight down
so i can stay at a lower weight class.

Just an observation:
Its funny how many people I meet at local gyms that are wanting or are
mma fighters.

brihead301
06-29-2009, 09:19 AM
Ok, what I meant was all other factors being equal (technique, skill, speed, conditioning, etc...) then the stronger guy would have the advantage.

blackboard
06-29-2009, 04:41 PM
Ok, what I meant was all other factors being equal (technique, skill, speed, conditioning, etc...) then the stronger guy would have the advantage.
nope cause the other guy might have more heart.

tomv
06-29-2009, 06:38 PM
nope cause the other guy might have more heart.

He said all factors being equal...

There are two "Fight-bots".
They have exactly the same physical structure, identical programming and are identical in every single way. Except one is 30% stronger.

He will win.

blackboard
06-29-2009, 07:26 PM
He said all factors being equal...

There are two "Fight-bots".
They have exactly the same physical structure, identical programming and are identical in every single way. Except one is 30% stronger.

He will win.

And I keep throwing factors in because his example isn't close to being realistic........if pigs could fly and so on. You will never find two people with identical everything but you can find guys with similar weight room stats. The carry over will be different even with the same "weight room" strength.

tomv
06-29-2009, 07:34 PM
Bugger me, if you can improve one of your physical aspects and it may provide an advantage, why wouldn't you?

I'm not trying to say strength is more important then other factors (conditioning, skill, etc.) but if you can increase strength without a causing a deficit to the other factors, why not?

brihead301
06-29-2009, 07:34 PM
Why in the hell are you arguing AGAINST the benefits of strength on WBB.com????? After all the reading that we all do, don't ya think it would have sunk in by now that being strong is a..........good thing.

blackboard
06-29-2009, 08:06 PM
Actually Strength training isn't guarantee to improve anything with mma. I started training Brazilian Jiu jitsu back in 98 so I have experience when it comes to so called weight room strength being translated on the mat. I'm not arguing against training for strength, I'm just making a point about the definition of strength. By 30% stronger would you be talking about a Bench, Squat or Deadlift? It doesn't work like that on the mat. Even by your theory with equal everything the person stronger in the weightroom could still get tossed around by his equal opponent meaning no advantage.

I could give countless examples of WWF looking guys getting tossed around the mat by smaller guys with the same experience, technique level. You see it in football especially with combine numbers. Reggie Bush did awesome by NFL standards on the Bench press but he can't break a tackle.

LVboxer
06-29-2009, 08:39 PM
It depends on your fighting style. I box, and you have to mix in alot of cardio. I do lighter weights, but more reps in the sets. Being to big will be a downfall.

slashkills
06-29-2009, 09:55 PM
Bugger me, if you can improve one of your physical aspects and it may provide an advantage, why wouldn't you?

I'm not trying to say strength is more important then other factors (conditioning, skill, etc.) but if you can increase strength without a causing a deficit to the other factors, why not?

Exactly. We are not saying technique and endurance arent important but strength at some point will make a difference.

slashkills
06-29-2009, 09:57 PM
Also, does anyone have any specific things in the weight room like certain plyos or lifts that will help me out? Im currently following ws4sb and will be doing agility, plyo, and bag work on off days for endurance untill i start classes.

brihead301
06-30-2009, 06:22 AM
At the very least, having a strong body from squatting, deadlifting, pushing, and pulling, will help prevent injury.

@Slash, once you start the classes, they will tell you what to do. However if you want to prepare so that you're somewhat conditioned before starting, try some of the following:

- tabata intervals (front squats, deadlifts, elliptical on max resistance)
- full body circuits (OH presses, squats, deads, pullups)
- Build up your long distance endurance too
- hit a heavy bag, and do three to five 3-minute rounds.
- shadow boxing
- burpees w/added pushup

These are all things we do in class, and they can all be done in the gym. It's all about short rest time and pushing yourself to the max.

slashkills
06-30-2009, 07:51 AM
Thanks!

KarlMarx
06-30-2009, 06:03 PM
Pretty reasonable discussion I'd have to say for wbb--it almost sounds like the consensus is moving anti-strength! Although I am with everybody on strength just being one factor, it certainly is a factor. I was rolling with this guy (before I knew anything about powerlfiting) who won a number of meets, etc. in PA (like I said, at that point I didn't really follow it or care too much). Anyway, I remember having him in an awesome side mount (at 210lbs) and just getting bench pressed off of him. I was a bit shocked. However, I found if I hung in for 30 seconds or 1 minute he was all mine when that 3 rep strength started to decline!

KarlMarx
06-30-2009, 06:07 PM
just tried to PM you but I'm too much of a noob (need more posts). I grew up in Joliet around Midland and Black Rd. What kind of gyms are there for PL and BJJ? Might stop in when I visit family...

Adam Brammer
07-08-2009, 08:48 PM
Never neglect strength training! Strength is an important factor in both power and endurance. When you come closer to fight time it's not the best use of your time, but as far out as you are, a modified westside template would be about the best thing for you. It'll give you some useable raw power that in time will allow a greater application of technique. Don't neglect aerobic training. Sprints and high intensity intervals are great, but the greater your aerobic base is, the longer and harder you can go before reaching your anaerobic threshhold. Don't buy into the hype. Aerobic training and PLing will develop a strong base for when you start your classes. You will still get destroyed in the beginning, but it will help.

slashkills
07-09-2009, 03:48 AM
just tried to PM you but I'm too much of a noob (need more posts). I grew up in Joliet around Midland and Black Rd. What kind of gyms are there for PL and BJJ? Might stop in when I visit family...

sorry man didnt see this. There is a gym called xtreme speed in naperville and i think in plainfield also but its not really a hardcore chalk and deadlift dropping gym. Its alot better than LA fitness or other comercial gyms though.I work out at home so if there is any PL gyms in joliet im not aware of them. For specifically BJJ there is a place in shoreword but im not familiar with it. For general mma there is a place called super kicks in plainfield illinois on caton farm road and county line if you want to look it up. sorry im not more help i dont really train outside of my house and school.