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Fuzzy
07-07-2009, 05:45 AM
unZG-c2hcZI

I remember getting to maximum depth, I remember bouncing out of the whole, heck you can see it. I went a deep as I could possibly go as usual, and I barely seem to break par.

WTF?

Clifford Gillmore
07-07-2009, 05:57 AM
I can't really comment on Oly style sqautting here, but your knees are drifting forward a little more than normal? Maybe kick your stance out a little.

Jeff Garvin
07-07-2009, 06:21 AM
Yea, your knees are way over your toes. Not sure if your meaning to do that or not but your first movement should be to have your hips move back like your sitting on a chair.

Fuzzy
07-07-2009, 06:29 AM
Yea, your knees are way over your toes. Not sure if your meaning to do that or not but your first movement should be to have your hips move back like your sitting on a chair.

Oly lifter bud, knees forward is totally intentional.

I think risk is right, the stance went too narrow on that one.

theBarzeen
07-07-2009, 08:08 AM
agreed.... a little wider stance would make it easier to hit depth, but then again if you are just squatting for strength in Olympic lifting why care so much about powerlifting depth ?

sobrinoc
07-07-2009, 09:40 AM
The only two problems I saw were stance width as you already know and the start of the movement seems to be with the knees. Even if these are oly squats, a squat is a squat... you squat between your legs, not on them. For a better idea of what I'm talking about look at how the chinese have their guys squat:

I wanted to post links to two youtube videos but the forum doesn't let me. Just search on youtube for:

"Chinese Lifters at the 2008 Arnold" and "Zhang Guozheng 220kg x 2"

Good luck!

Hazerboy
07-07-2009, 09:56 AM
I would say that Jeff is right also - if you watch the video slowly your first movement is you breaking your knees, it should be your hips. Sit back more just a tad more. Arch your back more also - if you look at 25 seconds, when you come outta the hole, you're leaning quiet a bit - its mine understanding that you're supposed to be a bit more upright for oly squats?

This is also a maximal effort though. Do you have the same problems on submaximal weights?

Also, while its good to give your squat an analysis here and there, you don't do squat contests XD. Your squat is a means to an end, and at 440x2, it looks like you're making your ends!

Ben Moore
07-07-2009, 09:59 AM
I would say that Jeff is right also - if you watch the video slowly your first movement is you breaking your knees, it should be your hips. Sit back more just a tad more. Arch your back more also - if you look at 25 seconds, when you come outta the hole, you're leaning quiet a bit - its mine understanding that you're supposed to be a bit more upright for oly squats?

This is also a maximal effort though. Do you have the same problems on submaximal weights?

Also, while its good to give your squat an analysis here and there, you don't do squat contests XD. Your squat is a means to an end, and at 440x2, it looks like you're making your ends!

Oly lifters typically break at the knees first. It helps stay more up right. You dont want or need forward lean with a high bar placement.

HP666
07-07-2009, 10:25 AM
The only problem I saw was a "Frankie Goes To Hollywood" T shirt.

WILD BILL
07-07-2009, 10:47 AM
U can keep ur stance that narrow if u want u just have to open ur hips up and force ur knees out. If ur flexible you can keep a good narrow stance and still force ur knees out and drop ur hips in the hole that u make when u open up ur hips. Also try to stay as erect as u can since leaning forward will cause ur butt to come up. Its deceiving but u dont go any deeper cause ur still going down but ur leaning forward so ur butt is coming up. And we talked about this I did do Oly for 3 yrs so im not giving u powerlifting advicen lol.

sobrinoc
07-07-2009, 12:15 PM
Oly lifters typically break at the knees first. It helps stay more up right. You dont want or need forward lean with a high bar placement.

Hm... well you or Wild Bill can correct me if I'm wrong here since I don't compete in oly, I just use oly squats to help my deadlift... In any case my understanding is that a squat is always done "between the legs" so breaking at the knees isn't beneficial and doesn't translate well to the bounce for the clean. The upright position comes from having the bar on the traps, not from starting at the knees. Again, this is my understanding from using it as a supplemental exercise, I admit I might be out of bounds. I believe if you search on youtube for "eduardo guadamud 310 x 2 squad" the video illustrates what I'm trying to communicate.

Notorious
07-07-2009, 12:17 PM
Looks like you need to push your knees out more.

Ben Moore
07-07-2009, 12:36 PM
Hm... well you or Wild Bill can correct me if I'm wrong here since I don't compete in oly, I just use oly squats to help my deadlift... In any case my understanding is that a squat is always done "between the legs" so breaking at the knees isn't beneficial and doesn't translate well to the bounce for the clean. The upright position comes from having the bar on the traps, not from starting at the knees. Again, this is my understanding from using it as a supplemental exercise, I admit I might be out of bounds. I believe if you search on youtube for "eduardo guadamud 310 x 2 squad" the video illustrates what I'm trying to communicate.

It's more of a que than anything. When you break at the hips first you have a tendency to sit back and the butt comes up. This will prevent a narrow stance lifter from reaching max depth. When you break at the knees first, the squat is more up and down and the lifter is able to reach depth easier.

Fuzz, I agree with taking your toes out a bit. It will open up your hips and allow for depth.

MarcusWild
07-07-2009, 01:09 PM
I have a feeling his hamstrings are very weak. That's why his squat is a purely quad movement.

chris mason
07-07-2009, 01:11 PM
Some of the folks here are definitely confusing a wide stance powerlifting style squat with what you are doing. I think you simply need to lighten the load and sit down at the bottom. You are doing what I do when I go heavy which is back squatting.

sobrinoc
07-07-2009, 01:23 PM
It's more of a que than anything.

Got it!

It's good to clear things up on these boards, sometimes there's a difference between what someone sees and how it works I guess. I based my oly lifting on what I saw in those two vids but probably never knew how to explain them right. :thumbup:

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BrockO'Bummer
07-07-2009, 01:49 PM
unZG-c2hcZI

I remember getting to maximum depth, I remember bouncing out of the whole, heck you can see it. I went a deep as I could possibly go as usual, and I barely seem to break par.

WTF?

Is it a lack of flexibility? If you're doing an olympic squat and that's about as low as you can go then WTF?!?!

I'm gonna put my money on "fear of going lower" or "lack of flexibility". I've been doing flexibility work consistently for almost a year now and up to now, I still get that uncomfortable on my groin when I squat... just a little bit, not as much as before...

If you really wanna be able to go deeper, I suggest you pause at the bottom and "fight the right spot", memorize it, and then go back to regular squats. Pausing seemed to have helped me teach how to position my self in the hole. It's just my experience.

Nevertheless, that's a monstrous squat.

BrockO'Bummer
07-07-2009, 01:52 PM
agreed.... a little wider stance would make it easier to hit depth, but then again if you are just squatting for strength in Olympic lifting why care so much about powerlifting depth ?

Because the "hole" in a clean or a snatch is much lower that the "hole" in a powerlifting squat. You gotta train being able to explode from that hole.

ZenMonkey
07-07-2009, 06:05 PM
Fuzz, you said you had a hiatus from a wrist injury. Is it possible youve just lost some flexibility? For example, I know you werent able to snatch b/c of your wrist. For me, performing the full snatch really gave me the flexibility I needed to hit depth. You might just need some more time under that kind of dynamic pressure. (food for thought)

I see a couple of things

1. You lose your arch and vertical stance
2. Your elbows flare backward
3. Your stance might be too narrow
4. Your foot angle might not be dramatic enough
5. Watching it makes me feel like it might be a hamstring flexibility problem... and soleus inflexibility too.

Lastly, I know youve put on some weight lately... larger hamstrings can prevent you from getting proper depth. You may need to rebuild new form from the ground up.

You are a young man and are growing taller and.... wider. Your proportions are probably changing a bit and you may need to compensate for different lengths in lever arms and leg size than you were used to.

Will you post a vid of a Front Squats and OH squats? If I get a look at those I think thatll help us determine/trouble shoot the problem better. It wouldnt be a bad idea to compare older videos of you hitting rock bottom for comparison too.


Also, do you hit rock bottom when catching a snatch or clean? Maybe post vids of those too.

Fuzzy
07-07-2009, 08:38 PM
Thanks for all the replies guys.

This is 195kgx2 done the set before, seems better to me than than the 200.
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I had a good play with the stance during front squats today, I certainly think the stance has become too narrow. The lack of snatching anad cleaning has made me lose touch with the movement. I noticed during cleans my stance was significanly different and I was alot deeper in the hole and more upright. I moved the front stance to replicate the width when I land from the pull and the difference in the power I could generate was unreal. I could get the ass and hips coming forward much earlier rather than having them hanging back as my lower back did the work.

The only problem I can now feel witht he wider stance is my knees want to shoot in, so I have to be concious of that and fight.

I will have a good play with backsquats in my afternoon session as well, a substanital but lighter weight like 4 plates should sit quite nicely.

These are my first proper lift in 6 months:
220 snatch
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264 clean and jerk
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You can definitely see the clean stance is alot wider, Ive adjusted the squats accordingley.

I think you were dead right Zen, I just measured myself, I'm a clear 5'10 now, not my lower end 5'9 so the mechanics must have changed, I could definitely feel that my collar to collar snatch grip felt alot different to how it used to be. My legs are feeling ginormous so I need to play witht he mechanics and see what's what.

Thanks all, I should be back later today with some back squats, (185kgx4 possibly)

robchris
07-07-2009, 09:22 PM
Fuzzy,
Lookin strong brother! I cant offer an analysis for your sqaut by no means but I did do a bit of Oly lifting in the past and the 220lb. snatch is impressive! Good form...

BTW, whats w/ the head bump on the plates before each attempt???

Fuzzy
07-08-2009, 03:53 AM
Fuzzy,
Lookin strong brother! I cant offer an analysis for your sqaut by no means but I did do a bit of Oly lifting in the past and the 220lb. snatch is impressive! Good form...

BTW, whats w/ the head bump on the plates before each attempt???

The head bump is my ritual. If you watch the best lifters they all have one. Some will grip the bar and roll it around in the same fashion before every lift, some tap their heels, some do a little shrug. Everyone is differnet.

The lift begins before you have touched the bar, it happens in the preparation 45 seconds before you the lift even commences. I don't change things at the start of the lift, and I don;t change them 30 seconds before. It's always sharp breath, tap the first plate on the right side, examine my sweat mark, and go.

brihead301
07-08-2009, 06:49 AM
The squat in the OP looked like it hit proper depth to me. I don't know much about oly (high bar, narrow stance) squatting, but I know that what always helped me was pushing my knees to the sides in order to help me hit depth.

vdizenzo
07-08-2009, 08:56 AM
I don't know anything about Oly, heck I don't know much about lifting, I just do it. My only comment is that I hate how you shake the weight at the top of the squat prior to going down. You are a strong cat, you'll figure it all out.

joey54
07-08-2009, 03:55 PM
I don't know anything about Oly, heck I don't know much about lifting, I just do it. My only comment is that I hate how you shake the weight at the top of the squat prior to going down. You are a strong cat, you'll figure it all out.

I was thinking the same thing. A lot of wasted movement before and between reps. I am sure you will work these minor problems out.

Fuzzy
07-09-2009, 03:59 AM
Please keep in mind this is my 6th lot of heavy squatting in 3 days. Things aren't as tight.

Note the wider stance.

RXnmOPOf0jk

WillKuenzel
07-09-2009, 07:09 AM
I can't get your last video to load but I agree with everyone else that said you need to push your knees out more. Just pushing your knees forward is binding your hips up and not allowing them to descend any further. If you open the knees up more then you can sit down further because the knees won't be in the way.

ZenMonkey
07-09-2009, 07:13 AM
Are you using your hams to pull you lower?

Sensei
07-09-2009, 08:07 AM
Fuzzy,
You aren't breaking parallel in the first video. As has been mentioned, a slightly wider stance and driving the knees out/outwardly rotating the hips will make a big difference. I didn't watch the other videos, but my guess is you naturally do that with your OLs anyway.

Fuzzy
07-09-2009, 08:28 AM
Fuzzy,
You aren't breaking parallel in the first video. As has been mentioned, a slightly wider stance and driving the knees out/outwardly rotating the hips will make a big difference. I didn't watch the other videos, but my guess is you naturally do that with your OLs anyway.

Certainly seems this is the right thought. Check the video on this pge, it certainly seems better.

WillKuenzel
07-09-2009, 11:22 AM
You're not arching much at all in the bottom. This lack of arch is putting the front of your hips higher and is giving the appearance of a higher squat. You're also still not pushing your knees out enough. Open the groin up. How's your flexibility through the groin?